570 upvotes, 28 direct replies (showing 25)
View submission: The web redesign, CSS, and mod tools
Yep. We'll keep the current site running for quite a while. We're not planning a violent switch. That would be suicide.
Comment by rebbsitor at 26/04/2017 at 04:55 UTC
187 upvotes, 1 direct replies
I've had time to think about this more today, and I have a couple additional comments.
In my previous comment[1] I mentioned that removing CSS is taking control from users, but it's more than just that.
1: https://www.reddit.com/r/modnews/comments/66q4is/the_web_redesign_css_and_mod_tools/dgq9q7u/
CSS is hard because it's powerful. There are a lot of creative, talented people who add functionality beyond what was originally intended because of the capability of CSS. A lot of customization are available that don't require someone to know CSS. If they do, they have a really powerful tool at their disposal. So really I see two major impacts of what you're proposing:
What we're really talking about here is taking a platform that allows people a lot of freedom to extend it and turning it into something where there's a few predefined options that reddit provides.
This has a secondary impact in that the community will no longer be creating new extensions for you to appropriate into the reddit platform. That innovative work becomes the sole domain of reddit developers and the community loses a great tool and the work of community developers.
Honestly you should be going the other direction - opening up more flexibility/customization for community developers, not cutting it off. Exposing the mobile CSS elements would be a good first step. As others have said, I mostly view the desktop version on my phone specifically because I want to see the site customization.
Comment by rebbsitor at 25/04/2017 at 14:40 UTC
1105 upvotes, 16 direct replies
Fast or slow, the result is the same. I often wonder if you guys really understand reddit and how your changes will impact it. A lot of communities make heavy use of CSS for various reasons. Breaking that will cause communities to ultimately find another platform once you make enough changes.
You can say CSS is terrible, but it's *the standard*. At the end of the day if whatever is rending the site is an HTML engine, whatever the mod controls are on reddit the result will be CSS.
The concept that CSS doesn't work on mobile is silly. What do you think is theming the mobile site? Mods just don't have control over it. They could...
You're just taking control away. Plain and simple.
If you're not careful, reddit will be the next Digg / MySpace.
Comment by chaoticmessiah at 23/04/2017 at 22:29 UTC
287 upvotes, 7 direct replies
Can it not be forever, give users the choice?
Personally speaking, I don't own a phone or tablet device and generally don't want to own either of them so it feels like the site is almost trying to push those of us in a similar mindset away in favour of those who own such devices and spend every waking moment staring at the screen, wherever in the world they may be.
Plus, I quite like the individuality and uniqueness of some of the CSS designs, especially on r/SquaredCircle.
Comment by MisterTruth at 23/04/2017 at 23:14 UTC
220 upvotes, 2 direct replies
Any switch is a poor choice. We all know it's to sterilize the site to make it better for advertisers when one of the things that makes this site great is the customizability of subs. Then again, we all know you can't have nice things on this site anymore since everything is catered to advertisers and paid posters.
Comment by MercuryPDX at 21/04/2017 at 16:32 UTC
169 upvotes, 1 direct replies
We're not planning a violent switch. That would be suicide.
1: https://www.wackbag.com/threads/fark-com-redesigns-site-fails-miserably.66175/
Comment by [deleted] at 23/04/2017 at 13:19 UTC
617 upvotes, 8 direct replies
Dear u/spez,
From our point of view, *any* removal of CSS is suicide!
Coarsely, Irritatingly, and Roughly,
r/PrequelMemes
Comment by NoahFect at 25/04/2017 at 23:27 UTC
31 upvotes, 5 direct replies
Please don't dumb down Reddit for the sake of mobile users. Not everyone is on a mobile, and not everyone who *is* wants a dumbed-down experience with endless vistas of new-and-improved white space.
Comment by willboston at 25/04/2017 at 22:00 UTC
9 upvotes, 0 direct replies
You should allow subreddits to electively choose to use the default, stock theme with the kiddie options, but allow for more open customizaton.
Think Tumblr, which has a stock skin builder (sounds like what you are planning), but also leaves the standard set of deeply customizable theme tools.
Comment by [deleted] at 24/04/2017 at 22:03 UTC
16 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Getting rid of CSS is suicide. You're throwing away years of work and creativity. Entire subreddits will be broken by this change. Do not be surprised by the mass exodus of users that follows the introduction of this change.
Comment by Berzerker7 at 21/04/2017 at 21:49 UTC
22 upvotes, 1 direct replies
What is "quite a while?" (hint: a few months is not "quite a while")
Comment by RShotZz at 25/04/2017 at 21:11 UTC
7 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I think that violent switch would be suicide, but plain removing CSS isn't really one of my favorite things.
Especially since it will break **basically all subreddits**. You've been warned...
Comment by semperverus at 23/04/2017 at 22:38 UTC
13 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Or you could keep CSS as an option ("how would you like to style your subreddit?" New Style Kit/CSS) and just not care about breaking CSS.
Comment by thrilldigger at 26/04/2017 at 15:00 UTC
6 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Whatever you guys do, I hope your redesign is minor from the user's perspective.
I've never seen a site die faster than when it does a full redesign. Digg, FARK, etc., and now Pandora - all dead to me because of a forced redesign.
Reddit's simplicity is its beauty, and it would be a shame to lose that.
Comment by [deleted] at 23/04/2017 at 22:12 UTC*
22 upvotes, 1 direct replies
[deleted]
Comment by -The_Blazer- at 25/04/2017 at 17:35 UTC
2 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Why not keep both CSS and the new system, and give subreddits the choice of which to use?
Comment by falconfetus8 at 26/04/2017 at 03:25 UTC
2 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Is there some reason that CSS and widgets can't co-exist? Just add a toggle option to let subreddits pick between the two. Essentially, treat CSS mode like a legacy system. Add all of your new features to the widget mode, and leave CSS mode untouched. That way, you won't be slowed down and burdened by CSS, while still living the option available for people who want to use it.
Comment by [deleted] at 28/04/2017 at 01:54 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I'd like to put a different perspective on this.
Minecraft, a fun little game on its own, became a powerhouse because it empowered users to develop for and make the game better. Each mod making it something more.
Its success is directly attributable to empowering developers and the community.
I think it would be a critical mistake for you to do anything that doesn't empower users/developers even more.
Your April Fools experiements should teach a similar, valuable lesson. The empowerment of groups does enormously powerful things.
The future of reddit should be built around the idea of empowering and encouraging further. It sounds like you're doing 2 things, simplifying(with the misguided belief that its a good thing because more people might find it easier to use) and as a result directly reducing power.
Ask yourselves what you think would happen to Minecraft if Microsoft decided to remove mods as they currently exist and replace them an equivalent widget based platform. Do you think that will improve and help Minecraft?
I don't think I need to answer that question for the reddit team.
I won't try to pretend this is a 1:1 thought experiment. I just think it might help demonstrate any mistaken thinking that could be occurring.
Whatever you decide in the end I'll just say that there's one thing very large crowds will always react badly to - having something taken away. Whatever is put in front of reddit definitely needs to feel like they've gained as opposed to lost.
Comment by jjps16 at 25/04/2017 at 15:19 UTC
3 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Does this go for the Al Qaeda too on r/syrianrebels?
Comment by JustinGitelmanMusic at 27/07/2017 at 04:03 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Perhaps you could have both options on desktop, so the setup would be like this:
This would allow people to have a custom experience on mobile as well as the CSS custom experience on desktop without having the inability for one to have it and the other not. And for users who want complete exact parity, they can have the mobile theme on desktop too.
Also, a mod team could choose to have the Reddit theme by default for all new users or the CSS theme by default, and have a PSA about switching.
Comment by Savedya at 26/04/2017 at 15:20 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
There's actually not much of a reason to have CSS disabled on mobile. Functionally its pretty much trivial to hot-swap css based on the subreddit you're in. If you're worried about users abusing it or unintentionally making an un-usable experience: then force some validation on the css before it gets saved. Say "only these selectors can be used, only these fields can be modified, and only these values can be applied to the field".
When you try to maintain n+1 versions of your codebase, then at least one of the n versions of your codebase will suffer in quality. Kill off the android/ios ports, make the mobile experience not trash, and literally everyone will benefit.
Comment by [deleted] at 26/04/2017 at 18:30 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
This choice is something that will drastically cripple many communities. Things like the search by flair feature and just the fun aesthetic of your site. I personally know many people who will leave reddit purely from this choice. You need to tread carefully.
Comment by [deleted] at 26/04/2017 at 08:29 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I can tell you that the private harry potter guild houses that exist as part of the fandom use CSS for a lot more than just simple things, like turning your mouse into a wand which makes them really special.
Comment by bloodstainer at 26/04/2017 at 18:48 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I'm curious, about one thing. Isn't this something that some subreddits might want though? I guess any subreddit not wanting phone users should just adapt?
Comment by OtherWalter at 01/05/2017 at 01:55 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Whatever you end up doing, you should allow mods to opt-in like you did with the new modmail rather than shoving it down our throats.
Comment by WithYouInSpirit99 at 26/04/2017 at 10:49 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Oh thank god. I think a lot of us will need some time to plan and adjust.