https://www.reddit.com/r/modnews/comments/66q4is/the_web_redesign_css_and_mod_tools/
created by spez on 21/04/2017 at 16:04 UTC*
1506 upvotes, 129 top-level comments (showing 25)
Hi Mods,
You may recall from my announcement post[1] earlier this year that I mentioned we’re currently working on a full redesign of the site, which brings me to the two topics I wanted to talk to you about today: Custom Styles and Mod Tools.
1: https://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/5q4qmg/out_with_2016_in_with_2017/
Custom community styles are a key component in allowing communities to express their identity, and we want to preserve this in the site redesign. For a long time, we’ve used CSS as the mechanism for subreddit customization, but we’ll be deprecating CSS during the redesign in favor of a new system over the coming months. While CSS has provided a wonderful creative canvas to many communities, it is not without flaws:
We’re designing a new set of tools to address the challenges with CSS but continue to allow communities to express their identities. These tools will allow moderators to select customization options for key areas of their subreddit across platforms. For example, header images and flair colors will be rendered correctly on desktop and mobile.
We know great things happen when we give users as much flexibility as possible. The menu of options we’ll provide for customization is still being determined. Our starting point is to replicate as many of the existing uses that already exist, and to expand beyond as we evolve.
We will also natively supporting a lot of the functionality that subreddits currently build into the sidebar via a widget system. For instance, a calendar widget will allow subreddits to easily display upcoming events. We’d like this feature and many like it to be accessible to all communities.
How are we going to get there? We’ll be working closely with as many of you as possible to design these features. The process will span the next few months. We have a lot of ideas already and are hoping you’ll help us add and refine even more. The transition isn’t going to be easy for everyone, so we’ll assist communities that want help (i.e. we’ll do it for you). u/powerlanguage will be reaching out for alpha testers.
Mod tools have evolved over time to be some of the most complex parts of Reddit, both in terms of user experience and the underlying code. We know that these tools are crucial for the maintaining the health of your communities, and we know many of you who moderate very large subreddits depend on third-party tools for your work. Not breaking these tools is constantly on our mind (for better or worse).
We’re in contact with the devs of Toolbox, and would like to work together to port it to the redesign. Once that is complete, we’ll begin work on updating these tools, including supporting natively the most requested features from Toolbox.
The existing site and the redesigned site will run in parallel while we make these changes. That is, we don’t have plans for turning off the current site anytime soon. If you depend on functionality that has not yet been transferred to the redesign, you will still have a way to perform those actions.
While we have your attention… we’re also growing our internal team that handles spam and bad-actors. Our current focus is on report abuse. We’ve caught a lot of bad behavior. We hope you notice the difference, and we’ll keep at it regardless.
We know moderation can feel janitorial–thankless and repetitive. Thank you for all that you do. Our goal is to take care much of that burden so you can focus on helping your communities thrive.
Big changes are ahead. These are fundamental, core issues that we’ll be grappling with together–changes to how communities are managed and express identity are not taken lightly. We’ll be giving you further details as we move forward, but wanted to give you a heads up early.
Thanks for reading.
update: now that I've cherry-picked all the easy questions, I'm going to take off and leave the hard ones for u/powerlanguage. I'll be back in a couple hours.
Comment by [deleted] at 21/04/2017 at 19:56 UTC*
1681 upvotes, 4 direct replies
Oh god no.
CSS on subreddits allows for incredible amounts of flexibility and ingenuity: I'm quite proud of using what it provides to make a cute little "interactive game" on /r/boopthecube, as well as adapting code from the logout button to make a random quote generator on /r/StevenUniverse. And elsewhere, just look at the beauty of /r/ooer for a classic example of CSS being used to its *beautiful* maximum potential.
I can't support this, not unless the system which replaces CSS allows for just as much creativity -- and that's very, very unlikely. If I have any advice on how to best do this, it's to give moderators a framework or a language they can use, which can be applied in ways beyond the original intent, rather than restraining them to a few input boxes like the subreddit settings. (Or, y'know, not remove CSS at all.)
EDIT: Oh, and support for emote systems please!!
EDIT2: How could I forget /r/StevenUniverse's CSS-based spoiler filtering system? Hides certain posts based on flair, for filtering out different levels of spoilers. Please, *please* allow for something like that in whatever's planned.
Comment by adeadhead at 21/04/2017 at 16:12 UTC*
1697 upvotes, 3 direct replies
So wait, Reddit customization is being ruined in favor of toolbox support? I'm not sure how I feel about this. Mobile support only works with the fairly feature bare official Reddit app, which doesn't really support mod features anyway.
What about subs like /r/Sweden who have a sidebar map with working links to subreddits in them? This sounds like a step in the wrong direction.
Sincerely, a mod of pics, the subreddit with CSS that no one notices.
Edit: as an actual question, will the final product be closer to selectable themes or selectable elements to add to our subreddit style, Scratch style.
Comment by RalphNLD at 21/04/2017 at 20:03 UTC*
2579 upvotes, 6 direct replies
Since when is CSS "hard to learn" or "error prone"? Valid CSS doesn't create *any* errors, but it might not render completely as someone had imagined. CSS isn't difficult to learn as a "language". The issue is that 90% of the custom styles are just overwriting seemingly random styling rules written by someone who didn't fully comprehend the word "cascading" with the aid of a dice and a lottery wheel.
Besides this, Reddit CSS is so time consuming because there aren't enough ways to target elements properly, no way to do media-queries and because the Reddit markup and standard CSS aren't up to modern standards. I'm happy they're doing something about it, but I'm very concerned that many features will be removed. Some subreddits only work because of the flexibility CSS gave them, be it through advanced flair systems or modified interfaces.
I just hope this doesn't end up in the same way as the mobile Reddit website. Our CSS worked perfectly fine on mobile, but then the separate Reddit mobile website (yes, apparently they are still built in this day and age) came along and replaced it with less functionality. Really, I think the most important thing to do right now is to rewrite the markup to make it logical, semantic, make it responsive and rid the CSS of all the bamboozles.
It's 2017; there hasn't been a need for separate mobile websites since IE8.
Comment by D0cR3d at 21/04/2017 at 16:20 UTC
935 upvotes, 3 direct replies
I like the thought of adding in toolbox and other mod tools, as well as the widgets, but I can't help but be worried that the widgets will be very limited and not replace the functionality many of us will be losing.
For instance our subreddit (gaming) likes to use countdown clocks to show how long until events (like game release, stream reveals), and use CSS to show a nice pretty image and styling for the countdown (bot that just edits sidebar description with time values counting down).
The lack of CSS styling gives me a uneasy fealing that our communities are turning away from something unique and special and just being another subreddit droid that all look basically the same. We've taken care to make sure our stylesheet works for as many users as we can based on what CSS can do, that it looks nice, and works great. Our users have complimented us on this and I just don't want to have our subreddit look exactly like everyone elses, just with our own banner and like 2 other images.
Comment by Eat_Bacon_nomnomnom at 21/04/2017 at 16:10 UTC
390 upvotes, 2 direct replies
Does this mean all subreddits will look the same, excluding a couple customizable fields?
Comment by TotesMessenger at 21/04/2017 at 17:19 UTC*
368 upvotes, 6 direct replies
I'm a bot, *bleep*, *bloop*. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:
[/r/arrow] [Admin shit] I guess we will have to say goodbye to our fancy up and downarrows
[/r/bakanewsjp] reddit運営「実を言うとCSSはもうだめです。突然こんなこと言ってごめんね。」
[/r/brasil] [x-post /r/modnews] A customização de subreddits não vai ser mais via CSS
[/r/css] X-post from r/modnews: Reddit's new stance on custom CSS
[/r/cssfuckfest] Well, we're fucked
[/r/de] Reddit möchte u.a. CSS für Subreddits abschaffen
[/r/destroythissubreddit] All right! New ways to tear the ever-loving hell out of this subreddit!
[/r/dissidia] [OFF TOPIC] Bye bye CSS
[/r/drama] spez announces plans to kill style sheets and fun (official party parrot protest thread)
[/r/dsa_rpg] Reddit Redesign und Ablösung von CSS
[/r/every_one_is_mod] No more custom CSS with the new site redesign
[/r/ffrecordkeeper] Reddit is removing CSS support. Well, it was fun while it lasted
[/r/ffxiv] Don't let them take away our pretty style sheets :(
[/r/fireemblem] [Meta/X-post] Would this change much about the subreddit's current style?
[/r/formula1] Reddit is planning to drop CSS support!
[/r/formula1] [OT]Reddit is planning to drop CSS support!
[/r/homestuck] I disagree with this, do you?
[/r/ice_poseidon] Reddit Admins are getting rid of custom CSS soon
[/r/kappa] Goodbye all the work Shinono started doing? Reddit is Getting RID of CSS.
[/r/lightnovels] Reddit news: RIP CSS
[/r/manga] Reddit news: RIP CSS
[/r/minecraft] Reddit Admin is removing CSS support.
[/r/modclubhouse_ja] サブレディットのCSSカスタマイズ終了のお知らせ • r/modnews
[/r/noveltranslations] Reddit news: RIP CSS
[/r/nsfwhailcorporate] Where were you when css was kill
[/r/onepiecetc] Reddit CSS Support Ending
[/r/onepunchman] Reddit Admin is removing CSS support.
[/r/reverseflashtv] It seems the redesign was pointless...
[/r/rocketleague] RIP All work put into the r/RocketLeague CSS theme
[/r/scotland] /r/Scotland Mods, looks like we might not be blue for much longer :(
[/r/smashcirclejerk] Where were you when CSS was kill
[/r/soapboxbanhammer] It's over people, time to pack up and move to greener CSS pastures
[/r/spacetomorn] The death of CSS QQ
[/r/starvstheforcesofevil] Well, looks like our dark mode will end up going to waste...
[/r/sto] [META] X-Post from r/Modnews: CSS to be deprecated, updates to Mod Tools
[/r/subredditcancer] Reddit admins removing CSS stylesheets... WTF
[/r/summonerswar] Anyone else notice that they're getting rid of CSS?
[/r/the_donald] Spez is removing CSS from all subreddits!
[/r/theflash] Well goodbye reddit. It was nice knowing you.
[/r/toontown] The subreddit is very likely going to lose its look.
[/r/twobestfriendsplay] Apparently, Reddit is getting rid of personalized subreddits
[/r/webdev] Custom CSS will be dropped from reddit in the future
2: /message/compose?to=/r/TotesMessenger
Comment by justjanne at 21/04/2017 at 16:14 UTC
903 upvotes, 4 direct replies
How about, instead of replacing, you could allow subreddits to keep using the old system for PC users for a few months?
This would make it easier to compare, test, find out what is missing, etc.
So that by the time the change becomes mandatory, all features will be there?
Comment by DrNyanpasu at 21/04/2017 at 17:21 UTC*
2025 upvotes, 9 direct replies
Fuck off, are you fucking kidding? We're going to lose our fucking spoiler codes, we're going to lose custom css hacks, we're going to lose comment faces? Are you seriously fucking joking right now? Why the fuck are you pouring effort into removing shit that we actually fucking use instead of giving us the tools we desperately need to moderate the fucking site? I'm fucking furious right now, this is fucking dumb.
This is probably the dumbest thing you guys have ever done, jfc.
Comment by CrystalLord at 21/04/2017 at 18:14 UTC*
583 upvotes, 2 direct replies
/esugarbsad[1] I'm strongly against this move. I'm going to be very sad when this gets implemented. I care very deeply about our ability to customise our communities. With CSS, we have a huge amount of power that no other system that's not exactly 1:1 can mimic.
Without that power, it's harder to create a unique community style. Is it possible? Yes, but a lot of functionality and options will be lost. Just look at /r/EarthPorn's and SFWPorn network structure[2]. This would destroy all their hard work. Another example: I'm part of the Imaginary Network Expanded, and through CSS we have constructed our beautiful navigation dropdown bar[3].
2: https://www.reddit.com/r/sfwpornnetwork/wiki/network
3: https://www.reddit.com/r/ImaginaryNetwork/
Now check out the beautiful sidebar of /r/Starcraft. Without CSS, that would be impossible. What about a subreddits with custom image flairs? What about subreddits with emotes?
The loss of these abilities does not help our community. It will only hurt us. We've always had the *ability* to turn off CSS, but forcing us to do so is not something I would ever want.
Edit: grammar and clarity.
Comment by Zackeezy116 at 21/04/2017 at 16:09 UTC
215 upvotes, 2 direct replies
but we’ll be deprecating CSS during the redesign
Just to be clear, does this mean subreddits will lose their stylesheets?
Comment by Baldemoto at 21/04/2017 at 16:09 UTC*
372 upvotes, 2 direct replies
I have been wondering, what is the ultimate goal for this?
Is it to make Reddit easier to navigate and make more accessible?
Is it to make Reddit more inviting to new users?
Or maybe it's to make Reddit look like the new Modmail or Reddit mobile?
What is the ultimate goal here?
Comment by blvcksvn at 21/04/2017 at 23:36 UTC*
322 upvotes, 4 direct replies
Hi /u/powerlanguage! I'm a mod from /r/PuzzleAndDragons.
I'm posting because I'm worried about how these changes are going to affect the immersion in our sub. Our sub relies on a tool our mod team developed known as iconify[1], which contains over 4000 icons and codes which were manually placed into the sub's css files and coded to show up on the site for our posts and wikis[2].
1: http://kawaii.xn--q9jyb4c/iconify/
2: https://www.reddit.com/r/PuzzleAndDragons/wiki/guides/leaders/durga
Our sub heavily relies on this functionality and removing CSS support would invalidate hundreds of hours of work put into making these resources available. Is there any plan to have a similar (UNLIMITED?) image code support? I am worried that emotes will not cover the scope of our current system, given how there are limits on so many other things on reddit, and how manually uploading 4000 icons would be a waste of everyone's time. Thank you.
here are some images comparing what it looks like with/without CSS:
Comment by tizorres at 21/04/2017 at 16:37 UTC*
156 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Many subreddits have css testing subs, I think it would be wise to reach out or activate the new design on those subs first.
r/CasualConversation >> r/CasualCSS
I would like to be in the alpha test for this considering I can see it first on my css sub to get it all fixed to our liking then we can port it over to the main sub.
Comment by reseph at 21/04/2017 at 16:28 UTC*
1845 upvotes, 14 direct replies
EDIT 2: Join us at /r/ProCSS if you're seeking CSS support to stay.
EDIT: Fellow moderators, take this survey[1]. (Live results here[2])
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't support this.
Many subreddits are different, and have different goals or CSS tweaks. I don't see how this will actually be considered a working replacement? For example if 50 subreddits use CSS to add extra buttons like "Read FAQ" below "Submit a new link" but the other 4000+ subreddits don't, would the admins actually give this dev time to implement? Are the admins actually going to implement every use case we moderators use CSS for to accomplish functionality? I don't see that being feasible. If not, then this is simple a loss in functionality for many many subreddits.
So what, we're just homogenizing Reddit now? And I'm not talking about the visuals, but functionality.
I can never see one blanket "theme" system/style to cover *all* subreddits working as they used to.
CSS has accomplished:
At the minimum, I see this as taking away the personality each subreddit has. We also lose the ability to control and improve UX, considering the admins have been exceptionally slow to improve any UX (even something like link flair).
3: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/50f41p/claps_for_the_moderators/?ref=search_posts
To be clear, I'm not upset by the fact that the time we spent on our CSS is being made useless. I'm upset that we'll be losing functionality and *individual subreddit personality*.
[EDIT] Fellow mods, please remember to be civil here. I may not agree with this decision about CSS, but I still respect the admins and all the hard work they do.
Comment by geo1088 at 21/04/2017 at 18:53 UTC
152 upvotes, 1 direct replies
I feel like the removal of CSS entirely will limit communities that utilize it effectively way too much. Sure, having to learn another language to style your sub isn't idea, but if I already know CSS and want to use its power to make my sub more creative, why take that away? **Why not keep the option to use a stylesheet while also introducing the new stuff as an alternative?** I realize that we'd have to rewrite stylesheets to be compatible with the new markup and stuff anyway, but I know there are people who would be willing to do that (me being one of them), especially on larger subs. What reason is there to restrict that other than "there are people who don't know the language"?
I know that CSS is only on the desktop site, and I know that subs which introduce features via CSS are a pain in the ass. But if people use it for what it's supposed to be, which is just styling stuff without significantly changing the layout of the content, then there's really no issue. Of course, there's no guarantee that people *will* use it the correct way, but I think it's important to note that some of the most common "hacks" people add via CSS are for things like custom menus, spoiler tags, and announcement banners, things which it sounds like will be a part of Reddit natively. I do need to say that **having that stuff built-in is awesome news**, but I don't think it's going to be a good substitute for the CSS system that already exists.
In reality all of this shit is likely influenced by the fact that I've put in a lot of work into various CSS themes that are about to become obsolete (some after seeing little to no public use), and I'm trying to keep that out of this because I know moving into something better is gonna mean leaving some stuff behind. At the same time, though, I'm not at all convinced this is the best way to go about things. So there's that.
Not much to say about the mod tools stuff that won't be discussed later as we port /r/toolbox, but I'm looking forward to that.
Comment by DoctorWaluigiTime at 21/04/2017 at 20:56 UTC*
121 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Okay let's debunk some nonsense spouted here about CSS.
It’s web-only. Increasing users are viewing Reddit on mobile (over 50%), where CSS is not supported. We’d love for you to be able to bring your spice to phones as well.
I'm assuming you're talking about apps instead of just the responsive web site here. Because mobile browsers absolutely support CSS...
CSS is a pain in the ass: it’s difficult to learn; it’s error-prone; and it’s time consuming.
This feels like a completely subjective opinion, and not really something a brand new system or language will overcome. Unless the new system is just a bunch of switches/color changing options/etc (i.e. extremely limited).
Some changes cause confusion (such as changing the subscription numbers).
This feels like a language-agnostic problem.
CSS causes us to move slow. We’d like to make changes more quickly. You’ve asked us to improve things, and one of the things that slows us down is the risk of breaking subreddit CSS (and third-party mod tools).
This also feels like a language-agnostic problem, and much like point #2 unless we're switching to extremely limited customization I'm not sure how this is going to go away.
Based on reading, about the only thing that makes sense is "we'll expose some dropdown menu options for you to change menu colors and a few other things we control." There's no way they're implementing a new pseudo-CSS language that's nearly as customizable as the former. Anticipating much less freedom in order to make things "easier" (this excuse is lame) and more uniform across all apps/platforms (this one makes a bit more sense).
Comment by aphoenix at 21/04/2017 at 21:08 UTC*
114 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Since you're the guy who is still answer*ing*, /u/powerlanguage, please understand that I say this as respectfully as possible as someone who is generally "on reddit's side"; I still tell people how helpful admins are when I have a specific issue, and I'm still *here* doing moderatory things.
On the surface this seems like one more instance of having interviews with moderators and taking the wrong understanding from the discussions. I cannot imagine that there are a lot of subreddits that said, "Please limit what we can do with CSS"; I think that it's more likely that moderators expressed a desire to have some other things *in addition* to CSS.
I think that there are a lot of benefits to taking the approach that you seem to want to take here, and I'm all for making things more accessible for moderators who don't know how to create a subreddit theme and don't know CSS, but taking away one of the only things that some moderators actually like seems like a pretty wrong-headed step. All the benefits seem to be for the administrators, with maybe a few for new users who will have a slightly more normalized experience across reddit.
This is another step in a direction that is unpalatable for many moderators, and the bottom line is that *your website is successful because of moderators*. The addendum to that is *you don't treat moderators very well*. And the last bit of that is *it's a bold move, Cotton, let's see if it pays off*. I guess a lot of us have enough Stockholm Syndrome built up that maybe it's going to work out fine, and I think that I'm okay with that, but it would be nice if the next announcement was something more like:
Here is a cool tool that you've actually asked for that will actually help moderators do moderation.
That's what we really want. Some ideas:
I could go on; I think there are a lot of recurring themes on /r/ideasfortheadmins that never seem to get any answers or any acknowledgement. Actually, there's something to add to the list:
The last several months have kind of felt like a kick in the pants for reddit moderators, specifically around /r/CommunityDialogue - going through interviews that we thought were expressing "what we want to see" only to find out we would be told "how you must act or you'll get removed" was a big turnoff - so I think that it's possible that many of us are looking at this announcement more from the point of view of "here's another thing that the admins are *doing* to us" instead of "here's a way that mods are tryingt o help us".
This was long and rambly, and I know that you guys are trying hard, but it is becoming increasingly frustrating to be the free labour force that makes reddit acceptable and to feel generally unsupported.
Comment by ChristyCloud at 21/04/2017 at 22:00 UTC
116 upvotes, 1 direct replies
ITT Reddit admins yet again show a huge disconnect between themselves and their userbase.
Comment by 20Points at 21/04/2017 at 16:07 UTC
770 upvotes, 5 direct replies
No CSS? RIP /r/Ooer
Comment by gildedlink at 21/04/2017 at 21:53 UTC
229 upvotes, 1 direct replies
I'd heard some terrible ideas from you in the past but this is the worst by a pretty sizeable margin. Stylesheets may annoy some thin slice of users who want to customize their subreddit more but don't want to learn how, the rest of us either learn or seek out others who do and there's been no problem with that. Even in the cases where this has been an issue, you could as easily have written a front end to generate CSS that's directly editable afterward instead of this excuse for a 'solution.'
Mobile site display isn't an excuse, stylesheets could work fine on those as well.
CSS is a pain in the ass: it’s difficult to learn; it’s error-prone; and it’s time consuming.
No it isn't. CSS is incredibly easy to learn. Reddit's stylesheets on the other hand are sorely lacking in documentation, so picking apart which classes affect which is what makes it annoying for users because now they have to read through the rats nest their web browser shows them to write it.
Some changes cause confusion (such as changing the subscription numbers).
Too bad, that's the cost of giving mods free reign over their subs- some of them alter the way subs are displayed as a joke. Given the number of explicit political subs that seem to push the idea of an invisible consensus on the default front page lately, you admins aren't exactly immune to 'causing confusion' either- and in your case I'd even assert it's with more explicit intentions more often than not.
CSS causes us to move slow. We’d like to make changes more quickly. You’ve asked us to improve things, and one of the things that slows us down is the risk of breaking subreddit CSS (and third-party mod tools).
Then document any major changes a few days in advance and **let things break**. If your changes aren't a nightmare, an alternative way of implementing whatever effect the sub is going for is out there. Unless you're just looking to take this right to complain away when you add changes that are a nightmare. Like you're proposing now.
Everything about this reeks of walled garden. CSS is an open web standard, people can pull from it and add to it, and that's not acceptable for a media site trying to pull in and hold as many users as possible- skins shouldn't be easily exportable, functionality like disabling a specific type of vote (or discouraging votes entirely in the case of np) shouldn't be possible without your approval, or hiding or minimizing branding identity, or using contributed assets elsewhere on the web without easily tracking them, or allowing other platform apps to easily read and display the site outside of the official channel..
We know moderation can feel janitorial–thankless and repetitive. Thank you for all that you do. Our goal is to take care much of that burden so you can focus on helping your communities thrive.
Big changes are ahead. These are fundamental, core issues that we’ll be grappling with together–changes to how communities are managed and express identity are not taken lightly. We’ll be giving you further details as we move forward, but wanted to give you a heads up early.
I keenly await your announcement that the hammer is dropping and you're federalizing reddit and chopping more mod control away in favor of administrative centralization and easier appeal to those cherished advertisers and spammers. Everything else you've announced here points in that direction. When you do, it will likely give me that final incentive I need to burn everything I've built with this site to the ground and go find a new place with respect left for its users.
Comment by SpyTec13 at 21/04/2017 at 16:21 UTC*
175 upvotes, 4 direct replies
I can't see how your styling system can be even as flexible as CSS. /r/Sweden will probably not have their sidebar map, /r/Overwatch won't have their fancy flairs, /r/Pokemon won't have their quite unique and nice styling, /r/IAmA will probably not have their animated "live" icon nor custom thumbnails for different post flairs. What about comment styling for specific users, like developers, to distinguish them from others?
Why not make the CSS be optional? Let it be there and still give the customization you're promising in this post. If people find it time consuming and want to not do it, the styling customization you're promising would be great for them. But for bigger subs or other unique subs having the CSS functionality key
Comment by DaminDrexil at 22/04/2017 at 03:28 UTC
87 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Removing CSS will pretty much destroy /r/photoshopbattles as it exists now. And it's not just a matter of adapting to a widgets. The nature of our sub means it doen't work natively with Reddit's submission-based system, so we need a lot of customisation just to make our sub function. Removing this ability will kill:
We have a flair system that documents user achievements in a number of categories. This spans over 5 years of accomplishments by tens of thousands of users. These flairs are earned, using objective criteria, and as such there're a lot of users that're proud of them. They're also a real incentive for photoshoppers to participate - much like unlocking achievements in games.
It would be devastating to lose these. Not only would it be demoralising to our core userbase, it would undo well over a thousand man hours of work from the mod team (no exaggeration on that, unfortunately).
If the daily threads are a battles of speed, these slower contests are battles of quality. They've been run weekly since our sub's inception (with a few exceptions), and we're up to #255 on just the Weeklies.
They're a very important part of our sub; and, after the threads are over a day old, the only way we've been able to get traffic to them is via clickable custom images in our sidebar.
Our content is in the comments; submissions are just vehicles for creation. Across the rest of Reddit, deleting submissions is seen as normal; on our sub, it also effectively deletes other peoples' OC.
We've built CSS tools for dealing with this. Removing them destroys our only line of defence against these kinds of deletions.
We have a lot of idiosyncratic rules for submissions, and try our best to warn people about the counter-intuitive ones on the submit page. Not being able to do that will result it (1) a bunch of frustrates submitters, who get their posts removed; (2) increased mod workload; and (3) more rule-breaking submissions slipping by before we catch them.
And that's just the main points. There are so many other ways CSS is necessary to the functioning of our sub. And that's not even mentioning the aesthetics.
Comment by SnowPhoenix9999 at 21/04/2017 at 22:02 UTC
82 upvotes, 0 direct replies
From other comments, it sounds like you mean that CSS will no longer be an option available for use. If you actually meant "deprecated" as in "discouraged from use" rather than "unavailable for use", that wouldn't be nearly as big of a deal to me, as I'm sure many of us would be happy to continue using it even in that state. Anyway...
It’s web-only. Increasing users are viewing Reddit on mobile (over 50%), where CSS is not supported. We’d love for you to be able to bring your spice to phones as well.
I use the desktop site even when browsing with a mobile device. Why, you may ask? Part of it is because a lot of subreddits have implemented their own functionalities using CSS, and the amount is so wide and varied that you'd waste a ridiculous amount of man hours if you tried to replicate them all, but that's just part of a bigger issue that affects more than just CSS: The mobile app is that it is simply not compatible with much of the functionality established with the desktop site.
Some non-CSS examples of where mobile is troublingly inconsistent with the desktop site:
So I'm sorry to say it, but in my opinion the problem with the mobile experience isn't CSS; it's idiosyncrasies the app has with the desktop experience, of which CSS is only one.
2: https://www.reddit.com/r/modnews/comments/5u9yh8/improvements_to_subreddit_rules/delkpcb
Since I feel bad pointing out only the negatives, I'll slip in the two things I actually do like about the mobile app: Push notifications for new messages are great and having consistently readable font sizes is good.
CSS is a pain in the ass: it’s difficult to learn; it’s error-prone; and it’s time consuming.
Others have already said it, but for many of us "CSS mods", Reddit's CSS options are what encouraged us to learn a markup language we otherwise would likely not have bothered to learn nearly as much about, and that translates into skills that can be used outside of Reddit as well. CSS isn't for everyone, sure, but any decent-sized subreddit that has started to take off is able to find someone who knows it, or better yet, will encourage someone on their mod team to learn it. It hasn't been a realistic problem, and the benefits of having it outweighed the disadvantages for most subreddits as far as I can see.
All in all, this is just the latest in a string of decisions Reddit has made that I find disappointing as a moderator, but this one is on a much larger scale. Sure, having to update CSS to handle breaking changes to website markup is annoying, but it's far better than not having it at all. You mention new tools and such, but I'm sorry, I don't think whatever tools you can introduce thanks to this change will ever make up for the functionality lost through it.
I know this comment almost certainly won't cause you to change your mind on the direction for this site, but I still hope that it, along with all the others here, will at least cause you to start reconsidering.
Comment by [deleted] at 21/04/2017 at 16:35 UTC*
166 upvotes, 2 direct replies
[deleted]
Comment by dehydro at 22/04/2017 at 18:53 UTC
77 upvotes, 2 direct replies
I hope this message is well received, as this development is extremely important to me and my experience on reddit as a moderator of a 400,000 subscriber subreddit. When I started out as a mod 3 years ago[1] I had very modest aspirations of contributing to a small community of like-minded redditors who enjoyed the same things I did. I wanted to be a part of something that people stumbled upon with glee and excitement, that evoked happiness upon the discovery of its existence. It could not be overstated the role that fellow moderators, content creators, subscribers, and all other reddit users played in the realizing of this subreddit as it currently stands as the 120th largest sub on reddit, just above /r/Apple and /r/Steam. That being said, I firmly believe and take immense pride in the direct and deliberate effect CSS had in contributing to this subreddit's success today, and editing said stylesheet remains my foremost source of personal enjoyment and achievement.
1: https://www.reddit.com/r/holdthemoan/about/moderators
It started out as is tradition among CSS novices, with trial-and-error[2] and a lack of resources. Then, as I progressed I sought the help[3] of /r/CSSHelp including the invaluable /u/gavin19 as well as sources of inspiration in the work of /u/qtx. Suddenly CSS started to make sense and improving upon the look of the subreddit became the single greatest source of happiness I drew from when moderating the sub. I had joked to my fellow moderators once saying that they could do whatever they wanted to the subreddit, but as long as they left me to my precious stylesheet I would be the happiest mod on reddit. I was so enamored with developing CSS for this subreddit, that a compiled a list of credits[4] for all the users, guides, and subs from whom I sought help. I was responsible for 3,259 edits according to the stylesheet's revision history[5] or 88% of total edits. I even compiled a list of all the times any user has ever said something nice[6] regarding the design of the subreddit.
2: https://i.imgur.com/Q3cUg29.gifv
4: https://www.reddit.com/r/holdthemoan/wiki/index#wiki_sub_credits
5: https://www.reddit.com/r/holdthemoan/wiki/revisions/config/stylesheet/
6: https://www.reddit.com/r/holdthemoan/wiki/index#wiki_critically_acclaimed_css_design.
My message to you all as the fore-bearers of reddit is to remember and continue to appeal to the redditors whom have been alongside you since the beginning. The redditors who have put in painstaking work to create their personal communities and develop their subs with more passion and dedication than most could imagine. I speak for myself when I say that my personal contributions to the subreddit that I mod could be regarded as borderline psychotic and obsessive. Making changes to a reddit we all love is tough enough as it is, let alone pushing updates that appeal to both new and old. I get that, but I plead with you not to disregard those of us who are emamored with CSS. You mentioned how you believe CSS is "a pain in the ass: it’s difficult to learn; it’s error-prone; and it’s time consuming." I think it speaks volumes that we're the ones who have put in hundreds of hours *despite* all of that. I understand there is a direction you want reddit to take, and that this is a step towards that goal, but please keep an open conversation among the pro-CSS crowd and come up with a resolution that appeals to us as well. Please don't step on our sandcastles. Please don't make it all go away.
Take for instance the new search design that was implemented. In this thread[7] there is a significantly negative response in the comment sections, as was also the reaction in /r/beta, citing specific UI choices and element changes they felt were inadvisable. In response, a `feature=legacy_search` option was, and still is, provided to us. Without this option the flair filter features at the subreddit I moderate would not work as intended. In the same way you reached out to the users critical of the new search design, I ask you to please consider doing the same here, in appreciation of all the tireless work that we both agree CSS-coders persevere through. Please acknowledge the 50% upvoted percentage this /r/ModNews post has received thus far, and realize that a full depreciation of CSS on reddit will upset a significant portion, perhaps half, of reddit moderators. Give us some reprieve and I will be forever grateful of your consideration. Otherwise, I don't think a single other possible change on reddit would leave me more heartbroken. Thank you.
7: https://www.reddit.com/r/modnews/comments/3b062r/moderators_search_page_updates_subreddit/
