1885 upvotes, 26 direct replies (showing 25)
This was a *much* better message than the blog post.
Many community members were understandably angered at our lack of action or response, and made that known in various ways. ... This nightmare of the weekend made myself and many of my coworkers feel pretty awful. I had an obvious responsibility to keep the site up and running, but seeing that all of my efforts were due to a huge number of people scrambling to look at stolen private photos didn't sit well with me personally, to say the least. We hit new traffic milestones, ones which I'd be ashamed to share publicly. ... Still, in the moment, seeing what we were seeing happen, it was hard to see much merit to that viewpoint. ...
You guys have an identity problem here.
You *want* Reddit to be a particular sort of site, but you aren't willing to *make* it that site. Wanting it and wishing for it isn't going to make you any happier when it isn't.
Fundamentally, you and other folks at Reddit are saddled with being admins for a site that bothers you on a regular basis. Do you really think that won't affect your enthusiasm for the job, or for the site?
You say,
...we feel it is necessary to maintain as neutral a platform as possible...
But, why?
There would be a lot of difficult problems to solve if you were to change your policy (what topics should be banned, what are the rules and guidelines and conditions...), but so far that discussion, if you've had it internally, hasn't been made public. No reason has been given for, "Reddit has to be as free as 4chan."
And the thing is, if you were happier with Reddit because it was that free, then that would be a sufficient enough reason. But you're not.
r/thefappening was *tremendously* popular. It wasn't just a minor portion of your userbase. So, in your position, I don't think I could say, "Well, it was just a few bad apples, I really do like most of what the site is about."
Reddit has had this problem for years. It tries to attract really nice people into administrative jobs, presenting Reddit as a place for gift-sharing and donations and political change, while simultaneously saddling them with a community full of a lot of really nasty content and then tying their hands to do anything about it.
That's where the blog post really, really fell flat: *it was a lecture written for an audience that you don't have.*
At some point you've really gotta decide what kind of site you want to be. If it's going to continue to be completely hands-off with rare exceptions, then you've gotta decide whether that's the kind of site you want to be responsible for.
(and I don't want to be *too* much of a hypocrite here, so I'll confess: I totally followed that subreddit. A lot. I'm not sad that it's gone, but the blog post didn't make me re-examine my life choices, either.)
Comment by jaxxil_ at 07/09/2014 at 14:02 UTC
278 upvotes, 9 direct replies
> ...we feel it is necessary to maintain as neutral a platform as possible...
But, why?
Here's one thing I'll say: I was on digg when the HD-DVD master key was leaked. In response to legal pressure, the admins started to remove posts related to that, as it wasn't immediately clear if the site would be liable for massive infringement if they didn't. This lead to the userbase rioting, and postings of the key absolutely continuously in all sorts of inventive ways. Basically, the Streisand effect on steroids.
What I'm saying is internet communities don't handle censorship very well. Taking action *might* help, but it might also have caused the photo's to have dominated even more in an angry response. Hands off is the easiest way to make sure the internet doesn't come crashing down on you with a vengeance, highlighting the exact thing you wanted to remove.
Comment by [deleted] at 07/09/2014 at 14:12 UTC
87 upvotes, 5 direct replies
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Comment by [deleted] at 07/09/2014 at 12:51 UTC
48 upvotes, 1 direct replies
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Comment by KiwiBuckle at 07/09/2014 at 10:04 UTC
118 upvotes, 3 direct replies
I'd give you gold if I weren't so pissed at Reddit right now. But I am and I want to thank you for eloquently summing up many feelings I and likely a lot of other users have, I hope the flood of informed and well written comments in this thread will get some attention to clean this site up - not from stuff that 14 year olds to 82 year olds want to diddly do it to but the scummier parts that detract from reddit being a tool for learning and communication.
Comment by zombiepiratefrspace at 07/09/2014 at 13:31 UTC
14 upvotes, 4 direct replies
Thank you for writing this. I want to stress that, in recent months, I've gotten the impression that, as other communities start enforcing some basic guidelines, the scummier people dissappear there and reappear on reddit.
IMO this is something that should give the powers that be at reddit sleepless nights. Because some day, in the not too distant future, somebody (most likely a 3-letter agency) will shut down 4chan. And if that happens, their entire zoo of asshats will look for another place to go.
I'm certain reddit will be the most likely "recipient". And once they are here, they'll start marauding through the subreddits.
If you, dear reader, doubt my reasoning, please be aware that there is actual *experimental* evidence of this: In Germany, there is a very controversial and extremely popular IT/conspiracy blog called "fefe's blog". That blog did not, at any point in time, have a comment function because fefe (Felix von Leitner, the guy running it) knew that the "community" there would just be one toxic cesspool.
As a sort of joke, Linus Neumann implemented a separate homepage called "re:fefe", which automatically generated an open comment page for each post of said blog. After some time, other bloggers started thanking Linus Neumann, because the number of trolls active on their blogs had decreased noticeably. re:fefe turned out to be an effective troll-sink, binding the energy of many of the people that made other communities toxic[1].
If 4chan were to go away some day, reddit would very likely become the new troll-sink.
[1] http://alternativlos.org/31/[1] All of this was mentioned in this episode of the Alternativlos podcast. Unfortunately, it is in German.
1: http://alternativlos.org/31/
Comment by wmcscrooge at 07/09/2014 at 12:49 UTC
5 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Wow, I don't really agree with everything that you said, but I have to hand it to you for writing a *really* good post. Definitely made me think about things that I haven't though before.
Comment by TheBeardKing at 07/09/2014 at 13:45 UTC
2 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Excellent post describing the state of conflict reddit is in right now. I feel like they really want to be the free speech platform they claim to be, but on the other hand they have a public image to defend and if that image gets bad enough it can really impact their financials. The bottom line is it takes money to run this site, and it can't be supported by gold for nudes alone. Running a site like 4chan is not a good business strategy, and reddit knows it.
Comment by placatetr at 07/09/2014 at 11:30 UTC
3 upvotes, 0 direct replies
This man is right. Realism articulated :)
Comment by AmnesiaCane at 07/09/2014 at 20:57 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I like your opinion here, but I'm not sure I agree with it. He, and the others at reddit hq, are in positions of no small amount of power, forced to balance the age old continuum of freedom vs. security. It's a recurring Superman problem. You have the power to make people play nice, but forcing your will on people is also bad.
Many, if not most guardians of free speech have to defend speech they might find deplorable. If the Westborough Baptist Church were stifled, the ACLU would absolutely line up to oppose that, but do you think for a second the lawyer in charge wouldn't wonder if the world would be a better place if they were shut up? If someone came to me and asked me to decide to keep beatingwomen or whatever, I honestly don't know what I'd do. Reddit is great because of the amount of freedom it has, but it's made so, so much worse by the existence of these subs. And honestly, if it were JUST me in charge, I'd probably ban it. I know the difference between an unpopular idea (a subreddit for creationism) and a harmful one (again, the above) or deplorable one (pics of bodies or dedicatedly aggressively racist subs). Those clearly don't have societal value, at least by any modern interpretation. But when I have to answer to someone else, or set precedent for another, it's a decision that would bother me either way. Letting me use my opinion to set rules means others who might not be so benign or open to criticism/other opinions as me.
It's an age old question: force the world to be good, or let it choose, knowing it won't always make the right choice? You're too far deep into one of those fields if you don't see the dilemma there. The admins aren't just there to grease the wheels, they have a job to keep reddit going. Sometimes, a part of that is going to be asking whether something is really the best thing for reddit. Free speech stuff is just one factor. Keeping an unpopular sub could one day tank reddit, and the administrators are obviously keenly aware of that.
They want it to be a good site. Part of that means being friendly, accessible, and inoffensive, but part of that is being open. They know exactly what they want, and the two aren't incompatible, but here they were forced to chip away at one of the two. That doesn't mean they don't know which they want.
Comment by [deleted] at 07/09/2014 at 14:21 UTC
6 upvotes, 1 direct replies
and I don't want to be too much of a hypocrite here, so I'll confess: I totally followed that subreddit. A lot. I'm not sad that it's gone, but the blog post didn't make me re-examine my life choices, either.
Yep, pretty much this. I don't think I would have ever seen reddit admins white knighting which is exactly what they're doing. There is content 10 times worse than what we saw in /r/thefappening and it's still up yet we're told we should feel bad about seeing JLaw naked? Come on.
Comment by [deleted] at 07/09/2014 at 23:27 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
You want Reddit to be a particular sort of site, but you aren't willing to make it that site. Wanting it and wishing for it isn't going to make you any happier when it isn't.
It's owned by Conde Nast.
That's fine and all, but this reaction should shock no one.
Hell, if [I] had a company that got as much traffic and ad revenue as this place, I'd behave in exactly the same way. In fact, I'd be banning subreddits I didn't like left and right, year round. That's because I want to stay in business and make as much money as possible...I don't want to be shut down!!!
But that's the catch: You can't be claiming to be THE place for discussion of all things if that obviously isn't true. So Reddit needs to stop portraying itself as that. Maybe Reddit needs an overhaul, to shrink down considerably in scope. Instead of having THOUSANDS of subreddits, choose 100. And instead of letting people just link to and post whatever they want, maybe make things based on level and rank (the longer and better poster you are, the more trusted your content is to post immediately BEFORE anyone looks at it). (Horrible nightmares of MrBabyMan's return!)
This, of course, is what happened to Digg. They were a giant site, but made a few key changes to content posting and site structure and within 6 months most big users had jumped ship. In the next 12-18 mos. most other Digg users followed.
Inevitably, Reddit will have to scale down to something super small and almost useless, or outright fail. There are a lot of smart people here, and most smart people know when they're being lied to. Eventually, enough pissed off CS majors and marketing folk will realize what Digg and Reddit has made isn't rocket science technically...it's just mindshare among web traffic.
And once Reddit's mindshare among its active users is shattered, the whole thing will collapse.
There's really no other outcome. It either shrinks considerably on its own, with stricter content moderation...........or users make something else and jump ship. Luckily for Reddit, there's no other 'ship" to jump to at the moment.
Comment by [deleted] at 07/09/2014 at 15:46 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
You guys have an identity problem here.
You want Reddit to be a particular sort of site, but you aren't willing to make it that site. Wanting it and wishing for it isn't going to make you any happier when it isn't.
Have to agree. You have ineffective leadership. If you've got a vision for what you want your site to be, make it happen. If it bothers you that you run a place where people's private information is fair game, make it not happen.
You're too stuck on blindly following theoretical *principles*, as if that ever works in the real world. When you find yourself moving away from the vision, correct course. If your site's being broken by infantile nerd-babies, stop caving to their whining. They'll find another site and reddit will be stronger for it.
I'm surprised anyone still works for reddit at this point. I'd be looking for a new job if my management was so spineless (or callous, you choose.)
Comment by Godspiral at 07/09/2014 at 21:09 UTC*
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
At some point you've really gotta decide what kind of site you want to be
... and then be fascist pigs about enforcing it... thereby making it not the site you wished it to be.
I think the freedom angle is a valid and worthwhile philosophy regardless of the less than 100% approval of every decision everyone else makes.
The worst part of the fascist pig approach to moderation is that it would enable constant infighting and political lobbying to ban content. I disapprove of murder, and would like to declare any national or political subreddit that includes advocacy for freedomizing Syria and Iraq to be a hate group. Are they not hate groups because their views have media support? Should moderators have to explain why every hate monger I point out is not being banned quickly enough to keep their subreddit alive?
Comment by happygamerwife at 07/09/2014 at 12:45 UTC
5 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Yes, the crossing has been reached. Either you want to babysit the 5% of the site that is mired in the fringe of whatever disgusting thing they can get into because of anonymity or you want to run a community of thinking adults.
Comment by Roast_A_Botch at 07/09/2014 at 18:35 UTC*
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
r/thefappening was tremendously popular. It wasn't just a minor portion of your userbase.
Most of it wasn't regular reddit users, hence the "traffic milestones". I don't, or don't claim to, know the exact figures, but neither do you, so we can't say what percentage of the user base participated. I'd love to have seen Victoria Justice(a popular with tweens Nick star) naked, but not on those terms, so I didn't participate. The ones who're most affected by the ban are also going to be the ones primarily commenting and voting in these threads. Using them to gauge its popularity would be as wise as using the top post on SRS discussing the topic as your metric.
Comment by x3haloed at 07/09/2014 at 16:17 UTC*
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I think you're right that this represents an identity problem. This is a fundamental shift in the spirit and the ideal of Reddit. If the staff don't believe in the values that were previously established, then those values aren't going to be adhered to wholeheartedly.
I'm personally saddened to see that Reddit isn't the place that it used to be. My own views are strongly aligned with those of the old Reddit. I feel a sense of loss, and I hope that a well constructed, morally-agnostic communication platform like it will exist again in the near future.
Comment by Jess_than_three at 07/09/2014 at 21:04 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
That's where the blog post really, really fell flat: *it was a lecture written for an audience that you don't have.*
Nah. It was a lecture written for the benefit of celebrities and their handlers, who might be discouraged from interacting with reddit. It assures them that no really, the admins really are doing everything they can to make the site decent.
Comment by InvestigativeWork at 07/09/2014 at 18:46 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
But, why?
Because it's their site, and not yours.
Go and make your own reddit and ban everything on there if you like.
Leave this one alone.
Comment by thereddityoulovegone at 07/09/2014 at 21:57 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOTZ4tpKr8Y#t=279
piggybacking on this to share this video.
reddit isn't what you think it is.
Comment by Porjam at 07/09/2014 at 12:28 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
They want to say they are neutral but go ahead and voice something different than the group think.
Comment by GracchiBros at 07/09/2014 at 13:24 UTC
1 upvotes, 1 direct replies
and political change
That's not one of them. Of the defaults, only a couple will even allow a political commentary. And those subs, news and world news, are heavily biased.
Comment by AreaMan123 at 08/09/2014 at 06:30 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Walter, this is not a First Amendment thing man.
Comment by OhLookASni at 07/09/2014 at 15:03 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Perfectly stated.
Comment by ManiyaNights at 07/09/2014 at 14:24 UTC
0 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Not to mention they are often not neutral on political things and it's usually the right wing argument getting deleted from what I can deduce.
Comment by Didntstartthefire at 07/09/2014 at 15:51 UTC
-1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
That's where the blog post really, really fell flat: it was a lecture written for an audience that you don't have.
Speak for yourself. Not everyone on here is a morally degenerate asswipe.