https://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/2fpdax/time_to_talk/
created by alienth on 07/09/2014 at 07:49 UTC*
14391 upvotes, 87 top-level comments (showing 25)
Alright folks, this discussion[1] has pretty obviously devolved and we're not getting anywhere. The blame for that definitely lies with us. We're trying to explain some of what has been going on here, but the simultaneous banning of that set of subreddits entangled in this situation has hurt our ability to have that conversation with you, the community. A lot of people are saying what we're doing here reeks of bullshit, and I don't blame them.
1: https://www.reddit.com/r/blog/comments/2foivo/every_man_is_responsible_for_his_own_soul/
I'm not going to ask that you agree with me, but I hope that reading this will give you a better understanding of the decisions we've been poring over constantly over the past week, and perhaps give the community some deeper insight and understanding of what is happening here. I would ask, but obviously not require, that you read this fully and carefully before responding or voting on it. I'm going to give you the very raw breakdown of what has been going on at reddit, and it is likely to be coloured by my own personal opinions. All of us working on this over the past week are fucking exhausted, including myself, so you'll have to forgive me if this seems overly dour.
Also, as an aside, my main job at reddit is systems administration. I take care of the servers that run the site. It isn't my job to interact with the community, but I try to do what I can. I'm certainly not the best communicator, so please feel free to ask for clarification on anything that might be unclear.
With that said, here is what has been happening at reddit, inc over the past week.
A very shitty thing happened this past Sunday. A number of very private and personal photos were stolen and spread across the internet. The fact that these photos belonged to celebrities increased the interest in them by orders of magnitude, but that in no way means they were any less harmful or deplorable. If the same thing had happened to anyone you hold dear, it'd make you sick to your stomach with grief and anger.
When the photos went out, they inevitably got linked to on reddit. As more people became aware of them, we started getting a huge amount of traffic, which broke the site in several ways.
That same afternoon, we held an internal emergency meeting to figure out what we were going to do about this situation. Things were going pretty crazy in the moment, with many folks out for the weekend, and the site struggling to stay afloat. We had some immediate issues we had to address. First, the amount of traffic hitting this content was breaking the site in various ways. Second, we were already getting DMCA and takedown notices by the owners of these photos. Third, if we were to remove anything on the site, whether it be for technical, legal, or ethical obligations, it would likely result in a backlash where things kept getting posted over and over again, thwarting our efforts and possibly making the situation worse.
The decisions which we made amidst the chaos on Sunday afternoon were the following: I would do what I could, including disabling functionality on the site, to keep things running (this was a pretty obvious one). We would handle the DMCA requests as they came in, and recommend that the rights holders contact the company hosting these images so that they could be removed. We would also continue to monitor the site to see where the activity was unfolding, especially in regards to /r/all (we didn't want /r/all to be primarily covered with links to stolen nudes, deal with it). I'm not saying all of these decisions were correct, or morally defensible, but it's what we did based on our best judgement in the moment, and our experience with similar incidents in the past.
In the following hours, a lot happened. I had to break /r/thefappening a few times to keep the site from completely falling over, which as expected resulted in an immediate creation of a new slew of subreddits. Articles in the press were flying out and we were getting comment requests left and right. Many community members were understandably angered at our lack of action or response, and made that known in various ways.
Later that day we were alerted that some of these photos depicted minors, which is where we have drawn a clear line in the sand. In response we immediately started removing things on reddit which we found to be linking to those pictures, and also recommended that the image hosts be contacted so they could be removed more permanently. We do not allow links on reddit to child pornography or images which sexualize children. If you disagree with that stance, and believe reddit cannot draw that line while also being a platform, I'd encourage you to leave.
This nightmare of the weekend made myself and many of my coworkers feel pretty awful. I had an obvious responsibility to keep the site up and running, but seeing that all of my efforts were due to a huge number of people scrambling to look at stolen private photos didn't sit well with me personally, to say the least. We hit new traffic milestones, ones which I'd be ashamed to share publicly. Our general stance on this stuff is that reddit is a platform, and there are times when platforms get used for very deplorable things. We take down things we're legally required to take down, and do our best to keep the site getting from spammed or manipulated, and beyond that we *try* to keep our hands off. Still, in the moment, seeing what we were seeing happen, it was hard to see much merit to that viewpoint.
As the week went on, press stories went out and debate flared everywhere. A lot of focus was obviously put on us, since reddit was clearly one of the major places people were using to find these photos. We continued to receive DMCA takedowns as these images were constantly rehosted and linked to on reddit, and in response we continued to remove what we were legally obligated to, and beyond that instructed the rights holders on how to contact image hosts.
Meanwhile, we were having a huge amount of debate internally at reddit, inc. A lot of members on our team could not understand what we were doing here, why we were continuing to allow ourselves to be party to this flagrant violation of privacy, why we hadn't made a statement regarding what was going on, and how on earth we got to this point. It was messy, and continues to be. The pseudo-result of all of this debate and argument has been that we should continue to be as open as a platform as we can be, and that while we in no way condone or agree with this activity, we should not intervene beyond what the law requires. The arguments for and against are numerous, and this is not a comfortable stance to take in this situation, but it is what we have decided on.
That brings us to today. After painfully arriving at a stance internally, we felt it necessary to make a statement on the reddit blog. We could have let this die down in silence, as it was already tending to do, but we felt it was critical that we have this conversation with our community. If you haven't read it yet, **please do so[2]**.
2: http://www.redditblog.com/2014/09/every-man-is-responsible-for-his-own.html
So, we posted the message in the blog, and then we obliviously did something which heavily confused that message: We banned /r/thefappening and related subreddits. The confusion which was generated in the community was obvious, immediate, and massive, and we even had internal team members surprised by the combination. Why are we sending out a message about how we're being open as a platform, and not changing our stance, and then immediately banning the subreddits involved in this mess?
The answer is probably not satisfying, but it's the truth, and the only answer we've got. The situation we had in our hands was the following: These subreddits were of course the focal point for the sharing of these stolen photos. The images which were DMCAd were continually being reposted constantly on the subreddit. We would takedown images (thumbnails) in response to those DMCAs, but it quickly devolved into a game of whack-a-mole. We'd execute a takedown, someone would adjust, reupload, and then repeat. This same practice was occurring with the underage photos, requiring our constant intervention. The mods were doing their best to keep things under control and in line with the site rules[3], but problems were still constantly overflowing back to us. Additionally, many nefarious parties recognized the popularity of these images, and started spamming them in various ways and attempting to infect or scam users viewing them. It became obvious that we were either going to have to watch these subreddits constantly, or shut them down. We chose the latter. It's obviously not going to solve the problem entirely, but it will at least mitigate the constant issues we were facing. This was an extreme circumstance, and we used the best judgement we could in response.
3: http://www.reddit.com/rules
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Now, after all of the context from above, I'd like to respond to some of the common questions and concerns which folks are raising. To be extremely frank, I find *some* of the lines of reasoning that have generated these questions to be batshit insane. Still, in the vacuum of information which we have created, I recognize that we have given rise to much of this strife. As such I'll try to answer even the things which I find to be the most off-the-wall.
Q: You're only doing this in response to pressure from the public/press/celebrities/Conde/Advance/other!
A: The press and nature of this incident obviously made this issue extremely public, but it was not the reason why we did what we did. If you read all of the above, hopefully you can be recognize that the actions we have taken were our own, for our own internal reasons. I can't force anyone to believe this of course, you'll simply have to decide what you believe to be the truth based on the information available to you.
Q: Why aren't you banning these other subreddits which contain deplorable content?!
A: We remove what we're required to remove by law, and what violates any rules[4] which we have set forth. Beyond that, we feel it is necessary to maintain as neutral a platform as possible, and to let the communities on reddit be represented by the actions of the people who participate in them. I believe the blog post[5] speaks very well to this.
5: http://www.redditblog.com/2014/09/every-man-is-responsible-for-his-own.html
We have banned /r/TheFappening and related subreddits, for reasons I outlined above.
Q: You're doing this because of the IAmA app launch to please celebs!
A: No, I can say absolutely and clearly that the IAmA app had zero bearing on our course of decisions regarding this event. I'm sure it is exciting and intriguing to think that there is some clandestine connection, but it's just not there.
Q: Are you planning on taking down all copyrighted material across the site?
A: We take down what we're required to by law, which may include thumbnails, in response to valid DMCA takedown requests. Beyond that we tell claimants to contact whatever host is actually serving content. This policy will not be changing.
Q: You profited on the gold given to users in these deplorable subreddits! Give it back / Give it to charity!
A: This is a tricky issue, one which we haven't figured out yet and that I'd welcome input on. Gold was purchased by our users, to give to other users. Redirecting their funds to a random charity which the original payer may not support is not something we're going to do. We also do not feel that it is right for us to decide that certain things should not receive gold. The user purchasing it decides that. We don't hold this stance because we're money hungry (the amount of money in question is small).
That's all I have. Please forgive any confusing bits above, it's very late and I've written this in urgency. I'll be around for as long as I can to answer questions in the comments.
Comment by [deleted] at 07/09/2014 at 14:09 UTC*
2196 upvotes, 3 direct replies
"If the same thing had happened to anyone you hold dear, it'd make you sick to your stomach with grief and anger." What about the people in /r/photoplunder? What about /r/beatingwomen2? Thousands of pictures of women (amongst other things) are leaked and posted everyday on this site, and the only reason they are not banned and removed is because they don't have the bank accounts to take legal action.
Edit: Obligatory thanks for gold, stranger!
Comment by [deleted] at 07/09/2014 at 10:07 UTC
1889 upvotes, 2 direct replies
[deleted]
Comment by kasmackity at 07/09/2014 at 13:28 UTC
935 upvotes, 2 direct replies
So....does that mean you're going to make age verification a requirement on /r/Gonewild?
Comment by SaidTheCanadian at 07/09/2014 at 10:24 UTC
3830 upvotes, 5 direct replies
/u/alienth I appreciated your post much more than the Blog post, which smacked of doublespeak given that it did not directly address the banned subreddits (it even seemed to suggest that they *weren't banned* for the reasons cited). The reasons which you have provided are, in my mind, understandable and possibly even sensible. Fair enough.
As for you, get some rest: it's Sunday.
Comment by [deleted] at 07/09/2014 at 08:08 UTC
1535 upvotes, 4 direct replies
Just gonna say this: The less transparent moderators become on Reddit the sooner people will flock to an alternative. Nothing lasts forever on the internet.
Comment by 4698458973 at 07/09/2014 at 09:04 UTC
1890 upvotes, 6 direct replies
This was a *much* better message than the blog post.
Many community members were understandably angered at our lack of action or response, and made that known in various ways. ... This nightmare of the weekend made myself and many of my coworkers feel pretty awful. I had an obvious responsibility to keep the site up and running, but seeing that all of my efforts were due to a huge number of people scrambling to look at stolen private photos didn't sit well with me personally, to say the least. We hit new traffic milestones, ones which I'd be ashamed to share publicly. ... Still, in the moment, seeing what we were seeing happen, it was hard to see much merit to that viewpoint. ...
You guys have an identity problem here.
You *want* Reddit to be a particular sort of site, but you aren't willing to *make* it that site. Wanting it and wishing for it isn't going to make you any happier when it isn't.
Fundamentally, you and other folks at Reddit are saddled with being admins for a site that bothers you on a regular basis. Do you really think that won't affect your enthusiasm for the job, or for the site?
You say,
...we feel it is necessary to maintain as neutral a platform as possible...
But, why?
There would be a lot of difficult problems to solve if you were to change your policy (what topics should be banned, what are the rules and guidelines and conditions...), but so far that discussion, if you've had it internally, hasn't been made public. No reason has been given for, "Reddit has to be as free as 4chan."
And the thing is, if you were happier with Reddit because it was that free, then that would be a sufficient enough reason. But you're not.
r/thefappening was *tremendously* popular. It wasn't just a minor portion of your userbase. So, in your position, I don't think I could say, "Well, it was just a few bad apples, I really do like most of what the site is about."
Reddit has had this problem for years. It tries to attract really nice people into administrative jobs, presenting Reddit as a place for gift-sharing and donations and political change, while simultaneously saddling them with a community full of a lot of really nasty content and then tying their hands to do anything about it.
That's where the blog post really, really fell flat: *it was a lecture written for an audience that you don't have.*
At some point you've really gotta decide what kind of site you want to be. If it's going to continue to be completely hands-off with rare exceptions, then you've gotta decide whether that's the kind of site you want to be responsible for.
(and I don't want to be *too* much of a hypocrite here, so I'll confess: I totally followed that subreddit. A lot. I'm not sad that it's gone, but the blog post didn't make me re-examine my life choices, either.)
Comment by WillR at 07/09/2014 at 21:17 UTC
64 upvotes, 0 direct replies
We're not "confused", we're pissed. Reddit has tolerated the most base and vile sorts of racism, sexism, religious bigotry, posts about self-harm, posts about bestiality, posts admitting to crimes, and *even leaked nudes of normal people*, deflecting criticism of them with "we don't censor". Which is only a meaningful defense as long as you hold to it absolutely.
Now the people in the pictures have money, and access to the non-internet media... and lo and behold suddenly there are rules!
Comment by [deleted] at 07/09/2014 at 14:40 UTC
1755 upvotes, 7 direct replies
Your post came across as very sincere, and convinced me that you don't actually know why you banned the subreddit.
Position 1: "We're banning the subreddit because of DMCA requests/legal issues for which reddit can be held liable."
Position 2: "We're banning the subreddit because of the insane amount of work involved in managing it."
Position 3: "We're banning the subreddit because of the morally questionable content."
Position 4: "We're banning the subreddit because we want reddit to have a certain image in the public. This subreddit and its popularity are damaging that image."
Edit: formatting
Comment by wub_wub at 07/09/2014 at 08:11 UTC
2917 upvotes, 2 direct replies
I think you should have just said simply "We had to remove thefappening and related subreddits due to DMCAs/illegal content and spam" and called it a day instead of the whole "we love free speach, we will never interfere with subreddits. Oh and btw we're banning bunch of subreddits that have nude celebrity pictures" which caused a lot of confusion and angry responses.
As far as the funds goes, I think someone calculated in that thread that it's only like $500, refund the money and let the users keep gold is probably the best way to avoid being attacked by either side, and the sum isn't that big and I doubt it will really have impact on reddit as whole. Plus you might get some people interested in re-purchasing reddit gold once it expires. That's what I'd do anyway.
Comment by spacehogg at 07/09/2014 at 10:13 UTC
820 upvotes, 4 direct replies
What makes this /r/photoplunder any different than /r/TheFappening other then they aren't famous?
Comment by LatrodectusVariolus at 07/09/2014 at 08:27 UTC*
1242 upvotes, 7 direct replies
we feel it is necessary to maintain as neutral a platform as possible,
Then why did you ban a blackladies mod? If you're keeping hands off then why are you banning individual users that do things like call out the admins for refusing to help them deal with people brigading their subs and posting dead mutilated black children?
Is it because she was gaining traction with online news sources picking up her story?
If your policy is hands off, why does that not extend to users like /u/DualPollux and Swore? Why are the admins picking and choosing who to target?
Why does Unidan get to create a new account that he publicly links to his old account but when users that point out racism and bigotry on this site do the same thing their new accounts are immediately banned?
It takes legal action for you to get involved and remove stolen pictures from reddit but you're more than willing to swoop in and get your hands dirty to ban people who say "Hey, there's racism and people admitting to rape (then giving out the victims username) on reddit!"
If you want to be hands off, be hands off. But be *consistent.* Don't say "we stay neutral" when the site is in uproar over stolen pictures then ban a blackladies mod by saying she's interfering with the culture of specific subreddits.
What interfered with the culture more? TheFappening or /u/DualPollux?
(And I don't mean *you* specifically. I mean *you* the admins.)
Comment by [deleted] at 07/09/2014 at 08:23 UTC
1729 upvotes, 4 direct replies
[deleted]
Comment by [deleted] at 07/09/2014 at 08:15 UTC*
1195 upvotes, 3 direct replies
[deleted]
Comment by jesseholmz at 07/09/2014 at 13:13 UTC
464 upvotes, 2 direct replies
i can see the mexican cartel butcher someone with a chainsaw but the moment some famous twat's twat shows up on here, "a very sad thing has happened"?
Comment by love_otter at 07/09/2014 at 08:19 UTC*
3106 upvotes, 10 direct replies
Well, since we have you here, can you finally shed some light on the mass shadowbannings and censoring of a large amount of the Zoe Quinn content? Content that broke no rules?
The Fappening happened right on that event's heels, and really made everybody forget all about it. I'd still like an explanation and for the mods/ admins at fault to be held accountable.
1: http://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/2fpdax/time_to_talk/ckbo3ax
2: http://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/2fpdax/time_to_talk/ckbhi0a
Comment by [deleted] at 07/09/2014 at 08:08 UTC
275 upvotes, 2 direct replies
[deleted]
Comment by [deleted] at 07/09/2014 at 13:23 UTC
116 upvotes, 2 direct replies
[deleted]
Comment by Zorkamork at 07/09/2014 at 15:34 UTC
64 upvotes, 0 direct replies
So how many women in /r/photoplunder need to hire lawyers to get you to actually have standards for them because the header for that sub is literally 'they should know better'.
Also should the families of the /r/picturesofdeadkids lawyer up too, because it seems your only standard is 'free speech above all else unless it makes bad press for us then we were always at war with Eurasia.'
Comment by rutterkin at 07/09/2014 at 08:29 UTC
301 upvotes, 3 direct replies
You obviously did this to comply with legal requirements, so why are you hamming up your reasons with all this "deplorable act of flagrant privacy violation" language? That makes you sound like CNN and it certainly adds to the misconception(?) that you are kissing celebrity ass. I believe what you are saying but it would be much more persuasive without all the rhetorically charged language.
Especially since violations of privacy occur on Reddit all the time. Remember the woman with the facial hair? What about the people who get posted in subreddits like /r/cringepics?
A lot of what people find so irritating about this situation is the whole idea of celebrities somehow having ascended untouchable status and that actions that affect them are more of an outrage than ones that affect ordinary people. Your finger-wagging at the people who leaked these photos makes it seem like you don't understand that or aren't sympathetic to it.
Comment by orangejulius at 07/09/2014 at 08:14 UTC*
1428 upvotes, 3 direct replies
Q: Why aren't you banning these other subreddits which contain deplorable content?!
A: We remove what we're required to remove by law, and what violates any rules which we have set forth. Beyond that, we feel it is necessary to maintain as neutral a platform as possible, and to let the communities on reddit be represented by the actions of the people who participate in them. I believe the blog post speaks very well to this.
We have banned /r/TheFappening and related subreddits, for reasons I outlined above.
Every second a sub like http://www.reddit.com/r/photoplunder/[1] is up after this you're basically saying that unless a person has enough money to hire an attorney, or is savvy enough to create a DMCA take down, or find your DMCA procedure to make you do work their stolen nude pictures are fair game. The victims might not even be aware of them.
1: http://www.reddit.com/r/photoplunder/
That's reprehensible. Particularly given the tenor of that blog post and your comment about being shocked if it were your own family member. I don't know why you edited that part about family out.
Q: You profited on the gold given to users in these deplorable subreddits! Give it back / Give it to charity!
A: This is a tricky issue, one which we haven't figured out yet and that I'd welcome input on.
You could always follow the suit of the Prostate Cancer Foundation and return the money generated from someone else's stolen images and likeness used for commercial gain. I'm somewhat amazed an enterprising attorney hasn't hopped on that tort claim yet for one of these celebrities.
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Quick edit - because I sound 'mean' and am not intending to come across that way - I think this is a good opportunity for the admins to prevent the victimization of people online and they should seize that chance.
Comment by treborsel at 07/09/2014 at 14:35 UTC
15 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Okay, if you are pissed off at what reddit is doing, stop giving gold. Let's make sure that the daily gold bar stays below 30%.
Comment by [deleted] at 07/09/2014 at 09:55 UTC
832 upvotes, 3 direct replies
You guys are cool with leaving up subs like /r/rapingwomen to preserve free speech?
Fuck you
Comment by quid_nunc at 07/09/2014 at 08:46 UTC
373 upvotes, 2 direct replies
Please post all the DMCA requests, which surely are not confidential. That way we can better understand your actions.
Comment by [deleted] at 07/09/2014 at 12:27 UTC
105 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Stop with the embarrassing dad titles - we don't need to talk, you need to stop pretending you are some kind of moral pariah when you are just cowering to lawyers
Comment by [deleted] at 07/09/2014 at 11:20 UTC*
510 upvotes, 2 direct replies
Hey, I got a question. Why are all my replies to this thread being deleted?
I'll try a third time, because there was absolutely nothing rule-breaking in the post:
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Y'all really need to drop the grandstanding and euphemisms.
Here's the thing. You've got your neckbearded Voltaire mask, complete with the clown nose and everything. "Sir, I detest what you say, but I would *die* for your right to *wakka, wakka, honk, honk!*" It's a fun prop. You can either keep it on or you can take it off, but you gotta choose, bucko. If you decide to pick and choose on an improvisational basis depending on when it's convenient for site revenues then expect to rightly be called a bunch of fucking hypocrites.
You have stood firmly behind the assorted sewer spawn of reactionaries and bigots who made this site their home and command post. Whole place is infested with them and nobody wants to take out the trash. It's being overrun by a stampede of gutter-dwelling white supremacists and misogynists, harassing marginalized groups here in droves. Communities and mods have been practically begging you[1], for years, to at least let them filter out brigades of white supremacists without putting their forums on lock-down. Instead, you ban the people[2] rocking the boat by pointing out the hypocrisy and then you make *proud* statements about how reddit, in its uncompromising bravery and liberal wisdom, *must* give the lynch mobs a platform, a podium and a megaphone, all funded by the users who have to be subjected to it. So, when thread after race-baiting thread on forums with millions of subscribers is filled to the gills with thousands of racist fuckwits sermonizing how they should "lynch all the chimps" and management stands by proudly nodding at all this free speech it's fostering, ***don't bother turning around to scream unconscionable moral outrage at a Hollywood sex tape***:
While current US law does not prohibit linking to stolen materials, we deplore the theft of these images and we do not condone their widespread distribution.
- /u/yishan
The obvious conclusion here is that you decided to deny a platform to people invading the privacy of celebrities who might soon change their minds about promoting your company. Good times. Should have been done right away, in my opinion. Now, for the other matter. Why do far *worse* and *far more deplorable* offenders deserve that same platform without eliciting your indignation?
What is the criteria for expression deserving that indignation, by the way? Perhaps, like the CEO says[3], people of color should just fork over some more money to be considered?
Clown nose on or clown nose off? Pick *one*.