1 upvotes, 3 direct replies (showing 3)
View submission: Do non-binary identities reenforce gender stereotypes?
I think it’s admirable that you’re arguing with such conviction on a topic like this. However, I think what’s caused disagreement between you and other people is a miscommunication on what both parties mean by ‘gender’. You mention Judith Butler and academic gender a few times and while I do agree that the field of gender studies is relatively new, that’s not the ‘gender’ most people are talking about in discussions like this. When other people are talking about gender, they’re referring to innate gender identity as experienced by an individual. The whole gender theory stuff comes from examining the interaction between the identity and society, which while interesting, isn’t particularly relevant to most people. Gender identity is an innate and immutable part of the human brain, locked in from birth and proven to exist through experiments and observation, even in people who have no clue what gender theory is.
The idea of “my gender doesn’t match my body” is one that doesn’t need theorising or academia to bring into existence. Just about every single trans person finds out about it and experiences it first hand. And let me tell you, it’s really obvious. Judith Butler is not required here.
It’s only natural for someone without the full picture, but I think you’ve accidentally made an incorrect assumption about what people are doing when they try and understand their gender identity and express it outwardly. You seem to assume that it’s all about reconciling how they present against society and the expectations therein, shown by the way you describe presenting as non-binary as a “rebellion”. The truth is more that people are trying to present in a way that reflects their *internal* gender, with society being the secondary consideration. If your gender identity is neither a man nor a woman, the aim is to present in a way that is neither that of a man nor of a woman, society simply provides the framework of what that should look like. It’s a passive approach that follows the path of least resistance, not an active one that tries to be different. Both approaches may end up in the same place eventually, but the underlying logic and reasons are completely different.
Gender identity can’t be compared to race because race is an arbitrary collection of physical features determined by genetics, whereas gender is an innate part of the brain that forms by itself, separate from external influences. Gender identity has nothing to do with ideology because gender identity *can’t* any anything to do with ideology. A baby in the womb has no clue about the world around them and yet a gender identity manifests nonetheless. Think of it like this: most (binary) trans people desperately don’t want to be trans, yet they have to be because that’s what was decided for them. There’s no free will in gender identity, you have to work with the lot you’re given and that’s that.
Comment by shivux at 13/01/2025 at 04:00 UTC
4 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Gender identity is an innate and immutable part of the human brain, locked in from birth and proven to exist through experiments and observation, even in people who have no clue what gender theory is.
This is a pretty bold claim. What experiments and observations are you talking about? I’m aware of like, one really interesting case study, and some brain research, but I’m not sure the evidence is robust enough to say anything’s been definitively “proven” yet.
Comment by poli_trial at 12/01/2025 at 19:46 UTC
4 upvotes, 1 direct replies
When other people are talking about gender, they’re referring to innate gender identity as experienced by an individual.
Well that's really just wrong. There's no such thing as as "innate gender identity" and there cannot be. I've mentioned this several times but I'll do it again, the concept of gender only began in the 1960s and it's precisely because of people like Money and Butler that we even have a conceptualization of gender identity. To say it's "innate" is pure madness.
When all your other arguments follow from this fact, this is the root of the problem. If you can't conceptualize the fact your beliefs are not innate but based on ideologies you passively absorb, including about gender, we're not going to be able to have a coherent conversation. Slavoj Zizek[1] is absolutely worth reading on this topic because it's important to understand how ideology is the air we breathe and yet unless being told by people who make the observation that it's there, we wouldn't be able to identify it as a source of our ability to live.
1: https://bigthink.com/the-present/slavoj-zizek-ideology/
Comment by dmlf1 at 13/01/2025 at 16:19 UTC
1 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Gender is an innate part of the brain that forms by itself, seperate from external influences
Wouldn't you have to raise hundreds of babies in complete isolation from society until they were adults to prove that? Even if part of someone's innate gender identity is determined by genetics, how can we be sure that the social interactions they have as children or even as babies don't influence it as well?