https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueAskReddit/comments/1hzf73e/do_nonbinary_identities_reenforce_gender/
created by Key-Weakness-9509 on 12/01/2025 at 04:55 UTC
1813 upvotes, 139 top-level comments (showing 25)
Ok I’m sorry if I sound completely insane, I’m pretty young and am just trying to expand my view and understand things, however I feel like when most people who identify as nonbinary say “I transitioned because I didn’t feel like a man or women”, it always makes me question what men and women may be to them.
Like, because I never wanted to wear a dress like my sisters , or go fishing with my brothers, I am not a man or women? I just struggle to understand how this dosent reenforce the sharp lines drawn or specific criteria labeling men and women that we are trying to break free from. I feel like I could like all things nom-stereotypical for women and still be one, as I believe the only thing that classifies us is our reproductive organs and hormones.
I’m really not trying to be rude or dismissive of others perspectives, but genuinely wondering how non-binary people don’t reenforce stereotypes with their reasoning for being non-binary.
(I’ll try my best to be open to others opinions and perspectives in the comments!)
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Comment by noonesine at 12/01/2025 at 11:10 UTC
73 upvotes, 15 direct replies
I’ve had this thought as well, like if gender stereotypes are a social construct, then can’t being a man or a woman be whatever you want it to be? Because as I understand it, being non binary doesn’t have to do with your physical sex but with your gender. Somebody please correct me if I’m wrong.
Edit: spelling
Comment by noize_grrrl at 12/01/2025 at 08:26 UTC
143 upvotes, 35 direct replies
I think it's important to distinguish between gender expression and an internal sense of gender identity.
Tomboys, femboys, femme girls, manly men etc are all valid types of gender expression. A feminine girl or a tomboy, or a butch woman, etc all have an internal sense of gender that says "woman." This must be separated from how each type of woman expresses their gender. Tomboys and butch ladies are still very much women, so long as they have that internal sense of gender that says "woman."
Likewise with men. Femboys are a valid expression just as a macho guy is a valid expression of the male gender.
For a nonbinary individual, the internal sense of gender feels different. It may not be there very strongly, or maybe at all. For some, it may fluctuate between genders. But I cannot stress enough that it is the *internal sense of what your gender is*, which must be distinguished from how a person chooses to look on any given day, the social roles they play, or how their body looks, or what hormones it may have. The internal sense may feel like...nothing. In terms of gender *expression*, some nb people are very femme, some are very masc, some are in between. It just depends on the person.
Nonbinary people struggle with binary people trying to define the nb gender in reference to binary genders. But nonbinary gender is neither, and exists on its own, often as an absense of gender, not in reference to female and male.
I feel that for cis binary gendered people this concept can be difficult, because their internal sense of gender matches their body and gender expression, and so they don't distinguish between them. Perhaps it's more difficult to distinguish between the two *because* there isn't any mismatch. That's why they can reduce gender identity to body parts - because they've never thought what makes them a woman/man. They just know their body parts are right, there's never been any sense of conflict, so they just think it's the bits that do the deciding for everyone.
If you couldn't use the reasoning of body parts, hormones, social roles, etc -- how would you know what gender you are? What do you feel like? What is your internal sense of who you are?
Comment by slumbers_inthedirt at 12/01/2025 at 11:02 UTC*
15 upvotes, 3 direct replies
i’ve met non binary people that present completely gender neutral, very feminine, very masculine, and ones who present with a variety of characteristics that could be considered masculine and feminine.
you can be a man who wears a dress, a woman who wears a dress, or a non binary person who wears a dress. the same is true for trans people of any genders.
ngl it’s incredibly difficult to describe wtf gender feels like to anyone.
i’m a trans man, and i was asked to explain what “being a man” means to my doctor when i was 14, fresh out of the closet. my answer was along the lines of:
“it’s not football, it’s not the colour blue, it’s not masculinity, it’s not anything. i don’t care about or know what being a man feels like, i just know that i feel the same as a cis man with gynomocastia - i should not have boobs, and they are fucking up my mental health. why? don’t know. i also know i want a penis. why? don’t know. does it matter what a man is? i want to and need to medically transition, i don’t care what the label is. if you want to call me a mentally ill woman or a trans man or non binary, it doesn’t matter, but regardless, i know i need to medically transition. i say i’m a boy cuz it just makes sense based on my dysphoria, what i want and need, the pronouns i like, and the fact that it feels right to be called [male name]”
imo anyone who’s reason for medical transition is anything close to “well i am [feminine / masculine / gender neutral]” has it wrong. doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t feel gender dysphoria and don’t need that medical care, but they’ve for sure got the wrong idea
i know a trans man who’s been out the closet for decades and now has a penis. he’s also incredibly flamboyant and effeminate. i know a trans woman who’s a bit of a tomboy. i know men and women who aren’t trans that don’t meet any gender stereotypes.
the concept that gender stereotypes play anything into what sexual characteristics you feel comfortable with is a concept that needs to die.
in terms of social transition (labels, name changes, pronouns, prosthetics and aids like STPs / breast forms / binders / tucking), i’d say it doesn’t matter regardless.
i think the only real difference the label non binary makes is if you’re someone seeking to medically transition in a way that’s not traditional - ie, someone born female who wants chest masculinisation / top surgery but doesn’t want hormones or a penis. or someone who wants HRT but no other form of transition.
but that’s still messy cuz there’s a bunch of trans men / women who don’t feel the need to “fully” transition, or who can’t (other medical issues, extreme obesity, concerns about complications, happy to just use prosthetics, whatever)
then there’s a whole bunch of trans people who say they don’t experience any gender dysphoria / distress / discomfort when presenting as the gender associated with their birth sex, but say they feel more comfortable and happy presenting as a different gender. i don’t get it, but fair play and i’m happy for them for figuring out what works for them - however, it does then add more questions to what the fuck gender is lmao
i don’t really think what gender is matters. i think all that should matter to other people should be what your pronouns and name are, and all that should matter to doctors is wtf you need changed about your body, regardless of what you think your gender is. i don’t care if you’re an alien or a man - do you want boobs or no?
cuz i’ve heard of even cis people getting fucked over while seeking gender affirming care - for example, cis men with gynomocastia having all options outside of surgery being completely swept under the rug and remaining completely unaware of the option of binding while they wait for surgery, being left with completely untreated mental health issues that are caused by the horrors of having boobs as a man, which CAN be eased by binding in the mean time. ultimately surgery is still required, like trans men, but binding is an excellent intermediary option to cope with the dysphoria.
or, worse, young boys being forced to have their breasts removed without their consent because it’s deemed “medically necessary” (it’s not!! sorting out the issue that caused breast tissue is, but the presence of the breast tissue doesn’t do anything bad lmao), only to later come out as trans women and find that they can’t grow breasts using HRT (bc of the surgery forced on them) and now have to have a boob job.
tldr - you can non binary / trans and have zero interest to perform to gender stereotypes. but in the same way that there are straight men that feel like washing their ass makes them gay, there are absolutely non binary people that revolve their identity around gender stereotypes.
rant over 😅
Comment by mcbriza at 12/01/2025 at 07:43 UTC
40 upvotes, 6 direct replies
I agree with you. When people describe themselves as non-binary, my question is, what do they associate with the category of woman or man that they feel doesn’t apply to them, outside of being male or female? In my opinion any characteristic that people associate with the female group of humans, for example, outside of their being female, is ascribing a stereotype.
Comment by Mabel_Waddles_BFF at 12/01/2025 at 11:54 UTC
15 upvotes, 6 direct replies
I’m a cishet women. I like wearing dresses, I wear pants, I’ve done ‘masculine’ and ‘feminine’ hairstyles. I like to bake and sew, I love cars, fishing and I’m learning how to hunt. It doesn’t matter what interests I have and what I wear I know deep within myself that I am a woman. If I got breast cancer and had to get a double mastectomy I would still be a women. It is something I know innately within myself. Just as a transgender person knows innately within themselves that they are not the gender assigned at birth. Now if myself and a trans person can know deep what gender they are, why is it hard to conceive that a non binary person innately knows that they are not either gender? Arguing that they are just falling for gender stereotypes is really saying that we know better than they do where they align on the gender spectrum. And really it is only enforcing the same rigid conceptions of that there is only male and female. Even from a biological standpoint we know that is incorrect.
Comment by I-Main-Raven at 12/01/2025 at 13:34 UTC
5 upvotes, 0 direct replies
See, my issue here is that gender *is* made-up. As in, it's a set of archetypes, which vary greatly in their... let's call it sub-genres, which the collective public has accepted as shorthands for interaction. Like stock character tropes for a piece of art. The problem with a lot of non-binary identity is that, while yes, your internal feeling of gender may be a certain way, if there is no difference in the external presentation, that cripples a huge bulk of what that gender is, namely the way the world interacts with you and vice-versa.
And, at risk of sounding callous, if it doesn't have any visible, tangible impact... who really cares? It's as minor as a modifier, or a footnote. It does not give the world around you any input on how to interact with you. Nothing has changed. A trans woman or man can transition, and there is an entirely new set of dynamics to explore and delve into. Somebody comes out as non-binary, and... well, nothing. There is a saying about not owing anybody androgyny, but that's the only real way that non-binary can even exist on par with other expressions of gender identity.
Comment by Separate-Idea-2886 at 13/01/2025 at 03:20 UTC
6 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Yes, of course they do.
I am a young man, 26 years old. I am probably "neurodivergent" although I don't call myself that and don't like the word. I am bisexual and have been around similar types of people my entire life.
I've come to the conclusion that pretty much all ideology/neo-ideology is about fitting in. That's really all it is. People want a defined set of rules they can relate to/identify with and want to fit in.
Of course "Non binary" doesn't actually exist as a gender, it exists as a way of communicating "I identify with both things that are considered masculine and feminine" or put another way "I can see I am a woman but I like all these things that are considered masculine therefore I can't be a woman".
Comment by twinkie2001 at 12/01/2025 at 05:34 UTC
31 upvotes, 9 direct replies
I won’t answer your question because I have a similar view myself. I’m trans but have never been able to wrap my head around what being “non-binary” is.
To me I suppose I’ve always seen gender as being essentially a conglomeration of personality traits. Your sex is the physical, your gender is the mind. So maybe that answers the question?
But in reality, humans are complicated and I think we’re often all a bit too quick to want to put labels on everything.
Comment by dreagonheart at 12/01/2025 at 11:21 UTC
5 upvotes, 1 direct replies
"Feel like a man/woman" is different from "act like a man/woman" and "like to do things that men/women do" are very, very different concepts.
If you turned my mom into a robot, she would still be a woman. If my mom had explained that to me before I realized I was nonbinary, I would have been baffled. Because I wouldn't have still been a girl if you made me a robot, something that I very much wanted to be. But of course I wouldn't have been able to understand. Whatever makes my mom a woman, I don't have that any more than my brother does. And whatever makes my brother a man, well, I don't have that either. So if removing me from my body leaves me as neither a man nor a woman, but removing a woman from her body leaves her as a woman and removing a man from his body leaves him a man, then the obvious conclusion is that I must not be a man or a woman to begin with.
What you say "I feel like I could like all things nom-stereotypical for women and still be one", and you're absolutely correct! My mother is stereotypically quite masculine. She likes some feminine things, but you're not going to see her wearing a skirt or a dress, and you WILL see her in sports gear. (The kind for people who watch sports and the kind for people who play them.) None of that makes her any less of a woman. Likewise, my love of plushies, dress-up games, etc., doesn't make me a woman.
Someone getting a hysterectomy doesn't change their gender. My testosterone-dominant endocrine system doesn't make me a man, nor was I a woman before when it was estrogen-dominant. Neither our bodies nor our behaviors determine our genders. Gender is an internal experience.
Whatever makes my mom, the trans lady I work with, and all of the rest of the women of the world women is something I lack. The only bit of womanhood I've ever experienced is the anger borne of being on the receiving end of misogyny. And, let's face it, that happens to anyone who is mistaken for a woman, regardless of context.
P.S.: The whole thing about how my mom would still be a woman if she were no longer in a woman's body is taken directly from a conversation she and I had.
Comment by No_Hat1156 at 14/01/2025 at 00:44 UTC
6 upvotes, 1 direct replies
Yeah. I've thought about this too. I don't think anyone feels like a man or a woman if they close their eyes. Not liking traditional male activities is extremely common. I personally don't think non-binary is a real thing. When a non binary person says they don't feel like a man or a woman, I just think...yeah, no one does.
Comment by birdparty44 at 12/01/2025 at 11:58 UTC
13 upvotes, 2 direct replies
I’m older. I think all this gender stuff is ridiculous.
People want to formalize and categorize a lot when all they mean is “I have this genitalia but don’t conform to traditional gender roles. Take me as I am.”
Take me as I am. This has been lost on people. Now it’s “here’s my label; act accordingly to make me comfortable.”
What you’re entitled to are equal opportunities and a gender neutral bathroom. Everything else is on you, not the rest of the world.
Comment by Accurate-Peach5664 at 12/01/2025 at 17:04 UTC
8 upvotes, 1 direct replies
You’re right. It does re-enforce rigid gender definition lines. All of the current discussions do.
A boy liking dresses being told “you should probably become a girl, even do surgeries, etc” is re-enforcing gender stereotypes.
Telling him those are “girl things” rather than just accepting that he’s a boy….who likes dresses. And just moving on.
The way to truly re-define rigid lines would be to not care if a boy wore a dress. Just let it go and stop trying to shove everyone into a box, whether it be transitioning to fit into a different box, shove them into the “non binary” boxes, or whatever.
Comment by canned_spaghetti85 at 14/01/2025 at 01:55 UTC*
4 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Yes. This.
My particular confusion lies with the word used : transition
The definition of that word, according to Oxford dictionary, is to to explain “the process or a period of changing from one state or condition **to another.**”
But like you said, if the individual pursued this “because I didn’t feel like a man or a woman”.. then use the word Transition is improper because their end objective is undefined.
I feel a more appropriate word would be to “Dissociate” which is defined as - to disconnect or separate from (used especially in abstract contexts). Other synonyms would be to decouple, or to disengage.
But I feel, for the example your OP states, individuals are misusing the word “transition” in their attempt to describe something else.
Comment by ta0029271 at 14/01/2025 at 08:57 UTC
6 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I think that the entirety of gender identity ideology is regressive and enforces gender stereotypes.
Because they see gender as an inner feeling rather than a biological reality, they always have to come back to sex typical or stereotypical behaviours to define it.
Jaz liked pink and soccer as a child, that means Jaz has a girl brain in a boy body (this is from the I am Jaz book). Both of those examples are social constructs. Pink is not inherently feminine and soccer is only seen as a girls game in North America.
The gender critical view is that man/woman is just something you are, not who you are. A boy can like pink without that somehow sliding the scale and making him less of a boy. Putting on a dress and makeup doesn't make you a woman etc.
Comment by goldenwanders at 12/01/2025 at 10:49 UTC
8 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I think they do yes. I’ve been called ‘gender fluid’ because i don���t wear traditional feminine clothes, but I consider myself a cis woman who just doesn’t like wearing dresses
Comment by Pongpianskul at 12/01/2025 at 11:17 UTC
7 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I agree 100%. What it means to be a man or a woman these days is based on the most superficial stereotypes imaginable. If you like pink and are into skin care you're probably a woman. If you like trucks and the color blue, you need to identify as a male. It's awful.
Comment by worldsbestlasagna at 12/01/2025 at 08:22 UTC*
16 upvotes, 2 direct replies
Yes! I've been saying this for years. I'm convinced that the upcoming youth will swing the pendulum in this direction . Just because a guy is not masculine and a woman not feminine does not mean they aren't men and woman. I always wonder why people who say ' well I don't feel like a woman / man' expect it to feel like. Some sort of urge to dress in pink core or sports jerseys
Comment by UbiquitousWobbegong at 12/01/2025 at 07:23 UTC
26 upvotes, 5 direct replies
Yes. And this is one of the reasons why the concept of a gender non-binary doesn't make sense. I've argued this in professional theaters when I was active as a therapist, but it's easy to get labeled a bigot when you are questioning modern identity ideology.
The trans and non-binary concepts of gender identity do not leave room for the tomboy, or the feminine male. You nailed it on the head when you said that they enforce gender stereotypes, because they require gender stereotypes to exist. It's like a shadow trying to exist without light - non-binary people require binary gender stereotypes to contrast themselves against, otherwise their concept of gender doesn't make sense.
And I'm not saying this because I hate non-binary or trans people. I'm trying to separate the concepts from the people, because we should try to accept and meet all people where they are at. I will always accommodate people with their identity to the best of my ability.
But it needs to be pointed out that for a biological female to be considered non-binary because she is into men's fashion and men's hobbies, it requires you to say that binary women can't like men's fashion or men's hobbies.
Before the trans and non-binary theories of gender took over modern academia and the psychological field, this all comfortably fit within the breadth of gender expression available to the female gender. In my opinion, the gender non-binary theory is trying to reinvent the wheel. We blurred the lines between genders due to the transgender movement and treatments, and the theory of a gender non-binary was sort of a natural extension to that rationale. The problem is that transgenderism is not so much an identity in and of itself as it is a group of people who are treating their gender dysphoria by transitioning their body and presented gender to one that eases their dysphoria. Transgender people don't create a question around gender identity. They just represent a subgroup of people who deal with extreme discomfort presenting as their biological sex.
There was no reason to develop the theory or identity of a gender non-binary, because it presupposes that the fluctuating gender identity of trans people creates some vaguery around gender identity in regards to biological sex. But it doesn't. I know that we all "play the game" of socially acknowledging trans people as their preferred gender out of respect for the individual, but that doesn't mean we've created some unheard of chimera that requires an entirely new concept of gender identity. They're just someone of one biological sex socially presenting as of the other sex, in whatever way that means to them. And while have no issue with people experimenting with different pronouns and exploring concepts of gendered behavior and interests, you can be a woman and like masculine things. It doesn't require a whole new understanding of gender divorced from biological sex. In fact, back to your point, creating this new theory just muddies things by creating clear contradictions.
Comment by ComplaintFabulous223 at 12/01/2025 at 15:01 UTC
3 upvotes, 1 direct replies
It's not the outter expression that makes someone non- binary, it's their personal relationship with concepts of gender. A classification that is much more important then hormonal or reproductive parts is the persons self classification.
Comment by AshJammy at 13/01/2025 at 19:14 UTC
3 upvotes, 1 direct replies
I can't speak for what non binary people feel but I'm a trans woman so maybe it can provide a little insight. Gender is just a feeling. It's something you just kinda know about yourself. When I transitioned I didn't start wearing dresses everywhere and doing my makeup every day, those things don't make someone a woman, the ways I behave, the gender I "perform" is really just me being me. I feel more comfortable being adressed as she and miss and extremely uncomfortable being addressed in a masculine way. I like people viewing me as a woman and I hate people viewing me as a man. There aren't set roles or tasks or activities you do that make you your gender, you just kinda know what your gender is and what you feel comfortable with.
Comment by Skylark7 at 14/01/2025 at 04:29 UTC
3 upvotes, 0 direct replies
Gender acceptance has pivoted into a narrowing of "allowable" expression for given genders. It's a shame because it's causing a lot of unnecessary medicalization.
Comment by No_Woodpecker_1198 at 14/01/2025 at 17:58 UTC
3 upvotes, 0 direct replies
I feel you, the whole thing is very upside down. Basically the consensus is that if you're a boy playing with dolls you must be a girl. So they're trying to get away from stereotypes by assigning so much meaning to things like, the colour of your clothes, or what you like to play with. It's honestly very stupid.
Comment by Julkyways at 14/01/2025 at 18:03 UTC
3 upvotes, 0 direct replies
this, like 99% of discussions around gender, is solved by accepting the fact that gender isn’t real and the only reality is there are humans with different genitalia. Everything else is fiction.
Comment by yucadulce at 14/01/2025 at 18:10 UTC
3 upvotes, 0 direct replies
It absolutely reinforces the gender binary. I don’t understand it but I’m not gonna fight someone over how they want to express themselves it doesn’t really affect my life at all.