2021-03-25T01:22:42 #kisslinux <acheam> what... happened here
2021-03-25T01:22:57 #kisslinux <acheam> kiedtl: are you intentionally not op anymore?
2021-03-25T01:31:51 #kisslinux <travankor> can't you hide op?
2021-03-25T01:32:14 #kisslinux <kiedtl> acheam: chanserv didn't op me for some reason, but I still have op access
2021-03-25T01:32:28 #kisslinux <kiedtl> Also midfavila through a tantrum because muh feelings >_>
2021-03-25T01:32:36 #kisslinux <kiedtl> *threw
2021-03-25T01:33:15 #kisslinux <travankor> i think he will be back in a few days
2021-03-25T01:33:38 #kisslinux <kiedtl> I'd prefer that the other one came back over midfav
2021-03-25T01:33:46 #kisslinux <kiedtl> but it'd be nice if they both came back, ofc
2021-03-25T01:33:52 #kisslinux <travankor> deppy?
2021-03-25T01:33:55 #kisslinux <kiedtl> Yes
2021-03-25T01:34:15 #kisslinux <travankor> everyone's welcome
2021-03-25T01:34:29 #kisslinux <kiedtl> Unfortunately so
2021-03-25T01:40:25 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> aren't you a diversity fan kiedtl
2021-03-25T01:40:52 #kisslinux <acheam> oh yipee sh4rm4^bnc is here to give his opinion
2021-03-25T01:41:19 #kisslinux <acheam> thanks kiedtl
2021-03-25T01:41:48 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> with 2.5 leftie ops here it's good to have at least one voice of reason :)
2021-03-25T01:42:38 #kisslinux <acheam> new song, word!
2021-03-25T01:49:49 #kisslinux <travankor> riscv would be kind of painful on kiss
2021-03-25T01:50:45 #kisslinux <travankor> i would assume cross-compilation would make life a lot easier
2021-03-25T01:56:11 #kisslinux <jedavies> travankor: currently working on cross-compilation on my fork. Not on riscv yet, but may try it out if I can get a cheap board.
2021-03-25T02:05:25 #kisslinux <travankor> great news!
2021-03-25T02:05:34 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> cross-compilation is hard *even* if you know what you're doing. took me about 3 years to get 90% of packages in sabotage to cross-compile...
2021-03-25T02:05:46 #kisslinux <travankor> BeagleV seems like the best option as of now for RISC-v
2021-03-25T02:06:15 #kisslinux <travankor> sh4rm4^bnc: not denying that, but it's still useful to have :)
2021-03-25T02:06:21 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> there's a good reason alpine has a datacenter with native build servers per arch...
2021-03-25T02:19:22 #kisslinux <E5ten> once my PR is merged, I think toybox install -t will finally work (used by some buildscripts I need) and I can finally swap to it from sbase (only other sbase command I have is tsort, cuz toybox doesn't have it)
2021-03-25T02:56:19 #kisslinux <acheam> gl&hf
2021-03-25T02:56:26 #kisslinux <acheam> that's all I can say
2021-03-25T03:00:35 #kisslinux <konimex> <kiedtl "Also midfavila through a tantrum"> so that's why the signal-to-noise ratio of this channel improved
2021-03-25T03:01:13 #kisslinux <konimex> anyway, time for the monthly rust update
2021-03-25T03:07:53 #kisslinux <acheam> hehe
2021-03-25T03:09:19 #kisslinux <travankor> konimex: i'm naively hoping gccrs can improve the situation
2021-03-25T03:10:19 #kisslinux <konimex> gcc-rs is irrelevant to my situation though (and it's retarded that the rustc bootstrap still needs libgcc eventhough it uses LLVM IR)
2021-03-25T03:11:19 #kisslinux <travankor> the rustc bootstrap still needs libgcc eventhough it uses LLVM IR -> explain?
2021-03-25T03:11:30 #kisslinux <travankor> any gcc frontend needs libgcc
2021-03-25T03:11:37 #kisslinux <travankor> afaik
2021-03-25T03:11:49 #kisslinux <konimex> travankor: I'm talking about the canonical rustc implementation
2021-03-25T03:13:04 #kisslinux <travankor> honestly, i forgot why rust needs libc and libgcc
2021-03-25T03:13:13 #kisslinux <travankor> is it to abstract os details or smth?
2021-03-25T03:13:26 #kisslinux <konimex> so to use rustc we had to download a binary rust-std, rustc, and cargo from previous version (see https://github.com/kiss-community/repo-main/blob/master/extra/rust/sources), but it dynamically links to libgcc
2021-03-25T03:13:37 #kisslinux <konimex> well everything depends on libc, as for libgcc, iirc it's for unwinding
2021-03-25T03:14:13 #kisslinux <travankor> konimex: i would argue non-C systems languages should not depend on C
2021-03-25T03:14:37 #kisslinux <konimex> this is beyond my knowledge, but then how would it communicate to the kernel?
2021-03-25T03:14:52 #kisslinux <travankor> through syscalls
2021-03-25T03:15:05 #kisslinux <konimex> and syscalls are in C, right?
2021-03-25T03:15:23 #kisslinux <travankor> nope, golang does this
2021-03-25T03:15:37 #kisslinux <travankor> well partially does it
2021-03-25T03:18:16 #kisslinux <travankor> https://github.com/golang/go/blob/master/src/syscall/mksyscall_libc.pl
2021-03-25T03:18:46 #kisslinux <travankor> i think drew's language will not use libc since iirc drew compained about this
2021-03-25T03:19:02 #kisslinux <travankor> s/this/this as well/
2021-03-25T03:19:04 #kisslinux <kissbot> <travankor> i think drew's language will not use libc since iirc drew compained about this as well
2021-03-25T03:19:14 #kisslinux <konimex> huh, ddevault is making his own lang?
2021-03-25T03:21:14 #kisslinux <travankor> yes
2021-03-25T03:21:33 #kisslinux <travankor> https://drewdevault.com/2021/03/19/A-new-systems-language.html
2021-03-25T03:24:10 #kisslinux <travankor> and it uses qbe as the compiler backend
2021-03-25T03:25:21 #kisslinux <travankor>   http://c9x.me/compile/
2021-03-25T03:28:58 #kisslinux <sh4rm4^bnc> only problem with that is qbe supports only arm64 and amd64
2021-03-25T03:33:33 #kisslinux <konimex> oh looks like bootstrap binary rustc-1.50.0 from upstream are good now (I can symlink libunwind.so.1 to libgcc.so.1 and play with LD_LIBRARY_PATH and it'll work now)
2021-03-25T03:59:20 #kisslinux <jedavies> Nice, will try that out also
2021-03-25T04:04:15 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> hi
2021-03-25T04:11:00 #kisslinux <jedavies> Hmm no such luck on powerpc.  "librustc_driver-4f3de2e4d077f02f.so: __gcc_qadd: symbol not found."   That lives in libclang_rt.builtins-powerpc64le.a, so not sure how to fool rust in that case
2021-03-25T04:11:38 #kisslinux <acheam> hey there testuser_[m]
2021-03-25T04:11:43 #kisslinux <konimex> yeah I only tested it on x86_64
2021-03-25T08:15:37 #kisslinux <E5ten> konimex: what'd they change? Were they previously  using symbols that compiler-rt/libunwind didn't provide but libgcc_s.so.1 did and aren't anymore?
2021-03-25T08:25:31 #kisslinux <konimex> IIRC someone on a rust reddit comment mentioned that (i'm paraphrasing from what I remember) "once my PR lands on stable (1.49.0 or 1.50.0), llvm-libunwind should be able to substitute libgcc", however I have no idea which commit did the change (from a cursory search), and I forgot to bookmark the comment itself, so, as of now, no idea
2021-03-25T09:44:39 #kisslinux <riteo> hiii!
2021-03-25T09:50:23 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> hi
2021-03-25T10:00:39 #kisslinux <travankor> https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2021/03/msg00083.html
2021-03-25T11:25:13 #kisslinux <kiedtl> konimex: re qbe: not even aarch64, as support for that arch is incomplete at best... but apparently drew is patching qbe to support other arches
2021-03-25T11:25:52 #kisslinux <kiedtl> Also I don't understand why the hell languages use syscalls instead of libc, you're just asking for trouble on platforms like windows or openbsd where the syscall numbers are scrambled on each release
2021-03-25T11:43:04 #kisslinux <kiedtl> Apparently OpenBSD makes an exception for Go, lol
2021-03-25T11:43:05 #kisslinux <kiedtl> https://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/programming/Go116OpenBSDUsesLibc
2021-03-25T12:06:04 #kisslinux <travankor> because systems languages that aren't C shouldn't depend on C
2021-03-25T12:24:54 #kisslinux <kiedtl> I mean, it doesn't hurt to do so
2021-03-25T12:26:51 #kisslinux <riteo> why?
2021-03-25T12:26:58 #kisslinux <riteo> imo travankor has a point here
2021-03-25T12:31:03 #kisslinux <kiedtl> I don't see why one wouldn't leverage work done by the libc when you're likely to be calling into C anyway for bindings to other libraries
2021-03-25T12:31:13 #kisslinux <kiedtl> Maybe I'm just being denser than usual?
2021-03-25T12:33:31 #kisslinux <riteo> I see your point too
2021-03-25T12:34:07 #kisslinux <riteo> the issue imo is that depending perpetually on c isn't that great of an idea if you're making a literal alternative to it
2021-03-25T12:34:48 #kisslinux <riteo> interoperativity is good yes, but you shouln't make c an integral part of your own system language
2021-03-25T12:34:54 #kisslinux <riteo> interoperability*
2021-03-25T12:36:26 #kisslinux <kiedtl> I doubt C will ever go away though
2021-03-25T12:36:55 #kisslinux <kiedtl> And C will always be an integral part of system languages if stuff like e.g. OpenSSL/libsodium/cryptostuff is written in C
2021-03-25T12:37:26 #kisslinux <riteo> well, you gotta see it in the long term
2021-03-25T12:38:06 #kisslinux <riteo> if one day there'l be finally the perfect replacement for c with memory safety and whatnot, people are gonna slowly rewrite those libs for that new language
2021-03-25T12:40:13 #kisslinux <kiedtl> At that point, we can move to syscalls :)
2021-03-25T12:40:45 #kisslinux <kiedtl> But I mean, like it or not you're going to be using libc if you want to run on windows/openbsd, so you may as well use it everywhere
2021-03-25T12:40:48 #kisslinux <riteo> well, putting it this way it makes sense
2021-03-25T12:42:40 #kisslinux <riteo> staying on topic, when do you think that there'll be finally the perfect c replacement?
2021-03-25T12:42:45 #kisslinux <riteo> or at least, close to it
2021-03-25T12:43:04 #kisslinux <riteo> rn there are like 453452359824 small languages aiming for that spot basically
2021-03-25T12:43:27 #kisslinux <kiedtl> I think Zig will be an okayish replacement for C when it matures
2021-03-25T12:43:40 #kisslinux <kiedtl> but like
2021-03-25T12:43:54 #kisslinux <kiedtl> Just about all of C's "replacements" miss many benefits of C
2021-03-25T12:44:02 #kisslinux <kiedtl> e.g. portability
2021-03-25T12:44:26 #kisslinux <kiedtl> it's darn near impossible to compile a Zig program on a machine with little mem
2021-03-25T12:44:36 #kisslinux <kiedtl> but I can compile C stuff on a raspi just fine
2021-03-25T12:44:37 #kisslinux <riteo> oh, you mean portability in that sense
2021-03-25T12:44:47 #kisslinux <kiedtl> yeah, portability across architectures
2021-03-25T12:45:07 #kisslinux <riteo> no wait, you talked about compiling
2021-03-25T12:45:08 #kisslinux <travankor> chilledfrogs: also install -dbg packages
2021-03-25T12:45:13 #kisslinux <travankor> woops
2021-03-25T12:45:15 #kisslinux <riteo> do you mean both compiling and running?
2021-03-25T12:45:25 #kisslinux <kiedtl> Oh
2021-03-25T12:45:35 #kisslinux <kiedtl> well, both
2021-03-25T12:45:47 #kisslinux <riteo> they're two kind of different things imo
2021-03-25T12:45:51 #kisslinux <travankor> kiedtl: isn't zig like that due to the llvm dependency
2021-03-25T12:45:59 #kisslinux <kiedtl> The compiler should be portable across all architectures, and shouldn't make it painful to build on those arches
2021-03-25T12:46:23 #kisslinux <kiedtl> travankor: I don't think so, clang works perfectly on my raspi (though a bit slower than gcc)
2021-03-25T12:46:38 #kisslinux <riteo> I guess that's maybe an optimization issue?
2021-03-25T12:47:00 #kisslinux <riteo> I don't know enough stuff about zig to say that, but isn't it like an issue of every new language?
2021-03-25T12:47:18 #kisslinux <kiedtl> uh
2021-03-25T12:47:46 #kisslinux <kiedtl> I be confuzzled, maybe I didn't phrase that correctly
2021-03-25T12:47:54 #kisslinux <travankor> zig is still fairly young, i think they might rework how their compilers work
2021-03-25T12:48:10 #kisslinux <kiedtl> More than that, they need closures
2021-03-25T12:48:20 #kisslinux <kiedtl> Not having anonymous functions in 2021 is insanity
2021-03-25T12:48:56 #kisslinux <riteo> I'm browsing their samples
2021-03-25T12:49:04 #kisslinux <riteo> its syntax looks kinda weird
2021-03-25T12:49:28 #kisslinux <travankor> i think zig has @ for imports
2021-03-25T12:49:39 #kisslinux <riteo> wait, does zig have memory safety?
2021-03-25T12:49:44 #kisslinux <travankor> no
2021-03-25T12:50:26 #kisslinux <riteo> oh right, some "detections" it was talking about are like objects in the stdlib
2021-03-25T12:50:26 #kisslinux <travankor> i think it has stronger type safety for some stuff
2021-03-25T12:50:51 #kisslinux <riteo> I'm seeing weird question marks, does it have null safety?
2021-03-25T12:51:16 #kisslinux <riteo> I don't know if that's the term, maybe it's that type safety you're talking about
2021-03-25T12:51:41 #kisslinux <travankor> yes i think so
2021-03-25T12:51:43 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> wayland WM written in Zig: https://github.com/ifreund/river
2021-03-25T12:51:57 #kisslinux <riteo> oh, cool
2021-03-25T12:51:59 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> if you want a "real world" example.  no clue whether their code is quality or not
2021-03-25T12:52:13 #kisslinux <riteo> I'm still failing to see its advantadges over c
2021-03-25T12:52:20 #kisslinux <travankor> i think it's good but fairly immature
2021-03-25T12:52:24 #kisslinux <kiedtl> It has namespacing, rit
2021-03-25T12:52:24 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> the creator gave a talk about it too... he explains why he chose zig
2021-03-25T12:52:33 #kisslinux <kiedtl> that alone gives it a nice advantage
2021-03-25T12:52:34 #kisslinux <riteo> I think I saw it
2021-03-25T12:52:44 #kisslinux <riteo> he talked about exception handling IIRC
2021-03-25T12:53:06 #kisslinux <kiedtl> module system, "generics", nicer type safety, safety checks, null safety
2021-03-25T12:53:23 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwrA5IRGpfU
2021-03-25T12:53:26 #kisslinux <riteo> oh, safety checks?
2021-03-25T12:53:35 #kisslinux <riteo> I didn't recall that
2021-03-25T12:53:46 #kisslinux <kiedtl> lemme find a link
2021-03-25T12:54:42 #kisslinux <kiedtl> https://lobste.rs/s/v5y4jb/how_safe_is_zig
2021-03-25T12:54:47 #kisslinux <kiedtl> Oops, that's the lobsters link
2021-03-25T12:55:04 #kisslinux <kiedtl> https://scattered-thoughts.net/writing/how-safe-is-zig/
2021-03-25T12:55:35 #kisslinux <riteo> oh, so it has some memory safety
2021-03-25T12:56:51 #kisslinux <travankor> the lobsters link says the main author plans to add more safety mechanism to the lang
2021-03-25T12:56:51 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> https://way-cooler.org/blog/2019/04/29/rewriting-way-cooler-in-c.html
2021-03-25T12:56:58 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> "I want to make one (mildly controversial) thing clear: rewriting a library for the sake of only using Rust is not good engineering. A literal rewrite of a project to Rust is not interesting, it’s not useful, it just causes churn and splits ecosystems. Time would be better spent either working with existing solutions that already have the effort
2021-03-25T12:56:58 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> put in to make them correct or to come up with new green-field projects."
2021-03-25T12:57:05 #kisslinux <dilynm> E5ten you're my hero with that toybox PR
2021-03-25T12:57:31 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> replace "rust" with whatever language of the month is in vogue
2021-03-25T12:57:58 #kisslinux <travankor> ominous_anonymou: iirc rust has issues binding to wlroots
2021-03-25T12:58:11 #kisslinux <riteo> i see
2021-03-25T12:58:13 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> yeah that way-cooler link goes into the issues he had
2021-03-25T12:58:19 #kisslinux <travankor> to the point where it's easier to rewrite wlroots in rust :2021-03-25T12:58:23 #kisslinux <travankor> yeah
2021-03-25T12:59:10 #kisslinux <travankor> i would like to see what zig achieves for 1.0
2021-03-25T12:59:22 #kisslinux <travankor> since many aspects of zig are still wip
2021-03-25T12:59:26 #kisslinux <riteo> I see
2021-03-25T12:59:54 #kisslinux <riteo> so afaict zig is like a comfier c with some modern features
2021-03-25T13:00:12 #kisslinux <riteo> I saw a talk of zig's creator and never quite got it
2021-03-25T13:00:23 #kisslinux <riteo> cool
2021-03-25T13:02:53 #kisslinux <riteo> thanks for the explainations, first I wasn't so sure about this lang, but it really looks promising
2021-03-25T13:03:39 #kisslinux <dilynm> Zig should hopefully be coming to KISS in some form soon(tm)
2021-03-25T13:03:46 #kisslinux <travankor> i kind of want to wait for 1.0 to ship before deciding
2021-03-25T13:03:48 #kisslinux <dilynm> My money is on this summer, but maybe sooner
2021-03-25T13:03:59 #kisslinux <travankor> dilynm: how so?
2021-03-25T13:04:20 #kisslinux <dilynm> Mmatongo has been working on it with his kiss-lang repo
2021-03-25T13:04:30 #kisslinux <riteo> oh, cool
2021-03-25T13:04:40 #kisslinux <dilynm> A pr got merged recently that should help, though you'd have to compile llvm yourself
2021-03-25T13:04:46 #kisslinux <riteo> does it have a complex enviroment?
2021-03-25T13:04:51 #kisslinux <riteo> oh, right, llvm
2021-03-25T13:05:05 #kisslinux <dilynm> With ~all~ the backends. Because... Reasons
2021-03-25T13:05:09 #kisslinux <travankor> zig's planning to rework how their compilers work
2021-03-25T13:05:13 #kisslinux <dilynm> Yey
2021-03-25T13:05:22 #kisslinux <riteo> what is planned to change?
2021-03-25T13:05:34 #kisslinux <travankor> im not sure lol
2021-03-25T13:05:43 #kisslinux <travankor> that's why i'm waiting for 1.0
2021-03-25T13:05:54 #kisslinux <riteo> they advertise pretty heavily on their website that llvm is the key behind all of those optimization in the binaries that make it "faster than c"
2021-03-25T13:06:03 #kisslinux <riteo> i'm quoting what they're saying, not moking them
2021-03-25T13:06:13 #kisslinux <dilynm> Llvm is pretty crazy
2021-03-25T13:06:31 #kisslinux <travankor> LLVM is written in C++
2021-03-25T13:06:36 #kisslinux <riteo> I've seen it everywhere, what does it do exactly?
2021-03-25T13:06:44 #kisslinux <kiedtl> I tconverts an "AST" to machine code
2021-03-25T13:06:45 #kisslinux <travankor> llvm?
2021-03-25T13:06:52 #kisslinux <riteo> I thought it was like, just a compiler
2021-03-25T13:06:55 #kisslinux <riteo> yeah
2021-03-25T13:06:57 #kisslinux <kiedtl> It's a compiler backend
2021-03-25T13:07:04 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> i wish llvm itself built faster :'(
2021-03-25T13:07:22 #kisslinux <dilynm> Remember when clang was better than gcc :v
2021-03-25T13:07:35 #kisslinux <kiedtl> Teh compiler parses the language and gives llvm an intermediate form, llvm does the nitty-gritty work of translating it to machine code and optimizing it
2021-03-25T13:07:39 #kisslinux <kiedtl> s/Teh/The
2021-03-25T13:07:40 #kisslinux <kissbot> <kiedtl> The compiler parses the language and gives llvm an intermediate form, llvm does the nitty-gritty work of translating it to machine code and optimizing it
2021-03-25T13:07:43 #kisslinux <riteo> oh cool
2021-03-25T13:07:48 #kisslinux <kiedtl> I need to work on my typing speed/accuracy :V
2021-03-25T13:07:55 #kisslinux <riteo> so it is a compiler, only an intermediate one
2021-03-25T13:08:02 #kisslinux <kiedtl> err sort of :)
2021-03-25T13:08:08 #kisslinux <travankor> imo qbe is cooler than llvm :V
2021-03-25T13:08:15 #kisslinux <dilynm> The wikipedia page does a super neat job of ELIundergraduate what LLVM is/does
2021-03-25T13:08:31 #kisslinux <travankor> riteo: no you still need the "frontend" compiler
2021-03-25T13:08:57 #kisslinux <riteo> oh, I see
2021-03-25T13:09:10 #kisslinux <riteo> @dilynm: I'm opening it right now
2021-03-25T13:10:53 #kisslinux <riteo> oh, it looks really cool
2021-03-25T13:11:10 #kisslinux <dilynm> konimex: how do you package the rustc cargo et al for wyverkiss, btw?
2021-03-25T13:13:17 #kisslinux <kiedtl> travankor: qbe doesn't have any optimizations and only support x86_64 :V
2021-03-25T13:13:27 #kisslinux <kiedtl> But hey, it's much faster and easier to build :)
2021-03-25T13:16:47 #kisslinux <riteo> last question: does anybody know why llvm is so slow to compile?
2021-03-25T13:17:04 #kisslinux <travankor> kiedtl: iirc qbe is similar to ggc -Os
2021-03-25T13:17:12 #kisslinux <travankor> gcc* uggh
2021-03-25T13:17:26 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> good game compiler lol
2021-03-25T13:17:34 #kisslinux <travankor> nice
2021-03-25T13:17:36 #kisslinux <konimex> dilynm: well, Wyverkiss creates (or used to create, depending on how my compilation of rust 1.51.0 goes later) its own dist tarball that doesn't link dynamically to libgcc, and I use that in place of upstream's rustc bootstrap, otherwise should be identical to KISS
2021-03-25T13:18:03 #kisslinux <dilynm> I mean how do you make the dist tarball haha
2021-03-25T13:18:31 #kisslinux <konimex> I just run ./x.py dist in the rust src
2021-03-25T13:18:43 #kisslinux <dilynm> Oh damn of course that's a thing they have
2021-03-25T13:27:18 #kisslinux <kiedtl> riteo: llvm is written in C++, and C++ compilers are notoriously slow
2021-03-25T13:27:24 #kisslinux <kiedtl> also, llvm is pretty big
2021-03-25T13:29:29 #kisslinux <riteo> why though? Doesn't it just compile an intermediate rapresentation? Is it because it optimizes heavily?
2021-03-25T13:29:39 #kisslinux <konimex> also, it depends on which part of LLVM you want to build, just libLLVM or including clang, mlir, flang, etc. (I haven't managed to build flang yet since it errored out and takes a lot of RAM using -j4, and also I really don't know why the hell did they not release a tarball for mlir)
2021-03-25T13:30:14 #kisslinux <riteo> i see
2021-03-25T13:30:34 #kisslinux <riteo> so llvm is a whole lot of stuff also not completely related to that, like clang
2021-03-25T13:30:48 #kisslinux <riteo> at first I thought that llvm was like a collection of stuff centered around clang, not the way around lol
2021-03-25T13:30:56 #kisslinux <kiedtl> Yeah, LLVM does very heavy optimizations of the intermediate stuff its given
2021-03-25T13:31:00 #kisslinux <riteo> I see
2021-03-25T13:31:10 #kisslinux <kiedtl> Also, LLVM supports a fuckton of arches
2021-03-25T13:31:30 #kisslinux <kiedtl> well maybe thats an exaggeration
2021-03-25T13:32:27 #kisslinux <dilynm> I believe the correct number is 'perhaps too many'
2021-03-25T13:32:33 #kisslinux <riteo> reading on wikipedia it supports quite a lot of them
2021-03-25T13:32:40 #kisslinux <riteo> god, even webassembly
2021-03-25T13:33:00 #kisslinux <dilynm> Flang is not afaik usable in the same way gfortran is :X which is odd
2021-03-25T13:33:08 #kisslinux <konimex> well, iirc it doesn't support some arches that gcc support (e.g. m68k? I kinda forgot)
2021-03-25T13:33:19 #kisslinux <dilynm> OpenSSL 3.0 soon :o
2021-03-25T13:33:28 #kisslinux <travankor> konimex: is there foss fortran software you use?
2021-03-25T13:34:12 #kisslinux <konimex> for now, no, but in the past I needed fortran for BLAS, which in turned used by numpy, etc. for my uni
2021-03-25T13:34:55 #kisslinux <riteo> well, thanks a lot for answering all of my newbie questions, gtg now.
2021-03-25T13:35:06 #kisslinux <riteo> bye!
2021-03-25T13:35:10 #kisslinux <kiedtl> cya
2021-03-25T13:35:14 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> bye
2021-03-25T13:36:54 #kisslinux <konimex> dilynm: that's odd, so it can't be used as a gfortran drop-in replacement?
2021-03-25T13:37:09 #kisslinux <dilynm> Not as far as I could work out
2021-03-25T13:37:35 #kisslinux <dilynm> I tried using it with R and it just... Wouldn't lol
2021-03-25T13:37:53 #kisslinux <dilynm> I had a mailing list post somewhere that detailed what flang was good for. Wonder where I put it
2021-03-25T13:44:17 #kisslinux <dilynm> Ah, a reddit post linked to from a homebrew article https://www.reddit.com/r/fortran/comments/k0xgmg/how_to_install_llvm11s_flang_on_macos_and_on/gdkv6wr?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
2021-03-25T13:45:53 #kisslinux <konimex> ah so it isn't ready for production yet
2021-03-25T13:46:17 #kisslinux <dilynm> Surprising considering they delayed it's merger into llvm for 18 months
2021-03-25T13:46:25 #kisslinux <dilynm> You'd think that would be the reason but alas...
2021-03-25T14:25:42 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> https://www.openssl.org/news/secadv/20210325.txt
2021-03-25T14:41:07 #kisslinux <acheam> dilynm: how do you feel about adding somebody else as an admin for the domain?
2021-03-25T14:41:13 #kisslinux <acheam> just to raise the bus factor
2021-03-25T14:42:54 #kisslinux <dilynm> I'm not sure how to do that without exposing my address to one of you chuckleheads :thinking:
2021-03-25T14:49:45 #kisslinux <acheam> I promise not to doxx you?
2021-03-25T14:50:47 #kisslinux <dilynm> Lol
2021-03-25T14:51:20 #kisslinux <dilynm> What I really need is a deadmans switch that sends my passwords and useful information to a few people if I don't stop it
2021-03-25T14:54:14 #kisslinux <acheam> "Bury me with my passwords!"
2021-03-25T14:55:51 #kisslinux <claudia02> hello
2021-03-25T14:55:57 #kisslinux <claudia02> https://dataswamp.org/~solene/2021-03-21-ssss.html
2021-03-25T14:56:08 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> hi claudia!
2021-03-25T14:56:20 #kisslinux <claudia02> this is an article about a program to share a secret >.>
2021-03-25T14:56:42 #kisslinux <claudia02> solene describes pretty much your usecase dilynm, no?
2021-03-25T14:57:14 #kisslinux <claudia02> aloha ominous_anonymou <.<
2021-03-25T14:58:52 #kisslinux <dilynm> It does indeed. Much like a horcrux
2021-03-25T14:58:53 #kisslinux <dilynm> https://github.com/jesseduffield/horcrux
2021-03-25T15:02:04 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> i like how with horcrux, you can rebuild the original from a subset of the splits
2021-03-25T15:03:33 #kisslinux <dilynm> Which I prefer
2021-03-25T15:04:27 #kisslinux <dilynm> Solene's work just basically pushes the single point of failure down a ring, because you need all n people to put their magic rings together to make captain planet instead of n-m people
2021-03-25T15:07:05 #kisslinux <dilynm> Either solution has a tradeoff with a literal deadmans switch tho; if I'm garbage but not dead, they can't do anything in that case. But if the trusted people turn out to be evil, they can just megamind me out
2021-03-25T15:07:34 #kisslinux <claudia02> The way she demonstrates it yes. But you can use something like ssss -t 3 -n 5 . To make 5 shares, where 3 recreate.
2021-03-25T15:08:16 #kisslinux <claudia02> The cpt planet thing is the exact thing I like on this solution. Despite it seems to be a nice lowtech decentrialized solution.
2021-03-25T15:09:01 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> oh great, ok, good to know that ssss supports that as well
2021-03-25T15:10:04 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> could your deadmans switch just be a single password at that point, though?  so like an encrypted file that ssss breaks into pieces, when they're put together you still have to decrypt the file
2021-03-25T15:12:01 #kisslinux <claudia02> http://point-at-infinity.org/ssss/ . Just a quick look at the project page.
2021-03-25T15:12:13 #kisslinux <claudia02> I have just tried it out. With 2 of 3
2021-03-25T15:12:35 #kisslinux <dilynm> Assuming I'm not overly busy tonight, I'll give this a good look and come up with a policy and stuff.
2021-03-25T15:13:39 #kisslinux <claudia02> https://p.teknik.io/FBMVU
2021-03-25T15:14:42 #kisslinux <claudia02> I would love to see the secret written on pergament paper with a red wax seal delivered in a wooden box :v
2021-03-25T15:15:10 #kisslinux <dilynm> Ssss is gpl. Rip unacceptable
2021-03-25T15:15:15 #kisslinux <dilynm> Also wtf "The software was written in 2006 by B. Poettering,"
2021-03-25T15:16:47 #kisslinux <claudia02> This was pre systemd.
2021-03-25T15:18:20 #kisslinux <dilynm> *draco malfoy voice* poeterring
2021-03-25T15:23:21 #kisslinux <claudia02> I still "have" to read this books :(
2021-03-25T15:25:38 #kisslinux <dilynm> They're so good
2021-03-25T15:25:41 #kisslinux <dilynm> Perfect 5/7
2021-03-25T15:37:50 #kisslinux <acheam> A counter action to the anti RMS petition shared here a few days ago: https://github.com/rms-support-letter/rms-support-letter.github.io
2021-03-25T15:38:59 #kisslinux <acheam> interestingly this one has more of a focus on individuals and not organization members
2021-03-25T15:41:44 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> if i'm kiss building a package that has a standalone install script that does a bunch of copies into /usr/bin/ and other places, how do i get that step done as root?  is there a way to split it to the kiss install step?
2021-03-25T15:43:10 #kisslinux <acheam> do you have to install it with that script?
2021-03-25T15:43:54 #kisslinux <acheam> if you must, then you should be able to just prepend the command with "$KISS_SU"
2021-03-25T15:44:36 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> yes/no.  i can do the copies manually or use `install` like some other build scripts do, but there's a... lot of them
2021-03-25T15:44:38 #kisslinux <acheam> but it does break the "install to an archive, then extract it" methodology
2021-03-25T15:44:56 #kisslinux <acheam> can you just sed them to "$1"?
2021-03-25T15:47:20 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> not sure tbh
2021-03-25T15:49:12 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> https://nim-lang.org/install_unix.html
2021-03-25T15:49:52 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> "The compiler and tool binaries live inside the bin directory" -- getting those into /usr/bin/ i guess
2021-03-25T15:50:31 #kisslinux <acheam> i'd reccomend just packaging choosenim
2021-03-25T15:50:33 #kisslinux <acheam> but idk
2021-03-25T15:50:33 #kisslinux <claudia02> https://github.com/archlinux/svntogit-community/blob/packages/nim/trunk/PKGBUILD
2021-03-25T15:50:53 #kisslinux <claudia02> They do cp and install many stuff manually to $1
2021-03-25T15:51:06 #kisslinux <acheam> as usual, stealing from arch is the way :)
2021-03-25T15:51:18 #kisslinux <acheam> s/arch/arch or void/
2021-03-25T15:51:20 #kisslinux <kissbot> <acheam> as usual, stealing from arch or void is the way :)
2021-03-25T15:51:52 #kisslinux <claudia02> This is a hell lot
2021-03-25T15:52:17 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> yeah right
2021-03-25T15:52:33 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> it struck me as excessive
2021-03-25T15:59:04 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> https://github.com/mmatongo/kiss-lang/blob/master/languages/nim/build
2021-03-25T15:59:27 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> oh thanks, i didn't realize he had one set up
2021-03-25T16:04:52 #kisslinux <testuser_[m]> rust 1.51 released
2021-03-25T16:05:51 #kisslinux <hellboy2d> dylin
2021-03-25T16:06:17 #kisslinux <dilynm> "Removing RMS will hurt FSF’s image and will deal a significant blow to the momentum of the free software movement." lel the FSF is garbage already they didn't need RMS' help
2021-03-25T16:06:36 #kisslinux <hellboy2d> The new tar don't let me su is this normal?
2021-03-25T16:06:49 #kisslinux <dilynm> What do you mean it doesn't let you?
2021-03-25T16:06:56 #kisslinux <hellboy2d> Okay
2021-03-25T16:07:06 #kisslinux <hellboy2d> I installed kiss 2 times this weeknd
2021-03-25T16:07:13 #kisslinux <hellboy2d> And in the 2 times
2021-03-25T16:07:26 #kisslinux <hellboy2d> Whem i do su in my commom user
2021-03-25T16:07:36 #kisslinux <hellboy2d> It says the password is incorrect
2021-03-25T16:07:42 #kisslinux <hellboy2d> But is correct
2021-03-25T16:07:49 #kisslinux <dilynm> Did you ever set a root password for root?
2021-03-25T16:07:54 #kisslinux <hellboy2d> Yes
2021-03-25T16:08:00 #kisslinux <hellboy2d> My root password is correct
2021-03-25T16:08:04 #kisslinux <dilynm> Does /etc/shadow or whatever actually show a password has been made?
2021-03-25T16:08:09 #kisslinux <hellboy2d> I enter in root with the password
2021-03-25T16:08:15 #kisslinux <dilynm> Hm
2021-03-25T16:08:23 #kisslinux <hellboy2d> I solved it with one command
2021-03-25T16:08:32 #kisslinux <hellboy2d> I just alert it for you
2021-03-25T16:08:37 #kisslinux <hellboy2d> Is strange
2021-03-25T16:09:51 #kisslinux <hellboy2d> chmod u+s /bin/su
2021-03-25T16:09:53 #kisslinux <hellboy2d> Solved
2021-03-25T16:10:17 #kisslinux <hellboy2d> Maybe is a bug
2021-03-25T16:10:50 #kisslinux <hellboy2d> Maybe is a good idea verify
2021-03-25T16:25:16 #kisslinux <dilynm> Hm. That should've already been done during the busybox build
2021-03-25T16:25:22 #kisslinux <dilynm> I'll take a peak, thanks
2021-03-25T16:49:51 #kisslinux <konimex> apparently using upstream rustc tarball didn't work, since it added -lgcc_s to the build (it detected libgcc_s.so after all) -- https://termbin.com/dlop, I may need to fool the -lgcc_s flag to link to point to libunwind
2021-03-25T16:53:56 #kisslinux <konimex> also, the upstream tarball is big, ~93M, my 1.50.0 build only weighed ~37M by comparison
2021-03-25T16:54:35 #kisslinux <dilynm> sed s/gcc_s/unwind/g :v
2021-03-25T16:54:43 #kisslinux <dilynm> Goodness. Whyyyyyyy
2021-03-25T16:55:32 #kisslinux <konimex> yeah, where exactly should I put it though
2021-03-25T16:56:52 #kisslinux <dilynm> grep -r lgcc_s .
2021-03-25T16:56:54 #kisslinux <dilynm> Lol
2021-03-25T17:03:41 #kisslinux <konimex> nope, nothing related to the problems I have (memchr and serde_derive from the earlier logs) https://termbin.com/no3k, apparently rustc bundles the full llvm source though
2021-03-25T17:17:38 #kisslinux <dilynm> https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/65051 make a new issue and mention this one. You shouldn't have to hamfist your unwind symbols into libc just to make rust go
2021-03-25T17:21:27 #kisslinux <acheam> I wonder what the longest freenode uptime is?
2021-03-25T17:21:46 #kisslinux <dilynm> Theyre restarting servers because of that CVE no?
2021-03-25T17:27:31 #kisslinux <acheam> ye
2021-03-25T17:37:54 #kisslinux <dilynm> hellboy2d: it is infact a problem with the tarball, it looks like. For some reason it wasn't suid. It will be fixed :)
2021-03-25T17:40:16 #kisslinux <hellboy2d> Thanks
2021-03-25T17:40:25 #kisslinux <hellboy2d> It be good helping you
2021-03-25T18:06:21 #kisslinux <E5ten> dilynm: it's merged now!
2021-03-25T18:06:22 #kisslinux <E5ten> let me know if you have any issues with it cuz I'm not 100% sure it's working completely correctly, but it seems to be
2021-03-25T19:53:21 #kisslinux <dilyn> let's see if rust builds :v
2021-03-25T19:54:19 #kisslinux <dilyn> e5ten: I'll let you know if I run into any problems :)
2021-03-25T20:36:45 #kisslinux <dilyn> built no problemo :v
2021-03-25T21:53:21 #kisslinux <dilyn> http://ix.io/2U5s I'm beginning to think that there's either a problem with my rust, or a problem with firefox
2021-03-25T21:53:49 #kisslinux <dilyn> this is with gtk+2 installed and not using the gtk2 patch
2021-03-25T21:54:21 #kisslinux <dilyn> in a clean chroot, CFLAGS are the usual kiss-chroot defaults. this is... bizarre
2021-03-25T21:58:57 #kisslinux <jslick> > cannot find value `AT_NULL` in crate `libc`
2021-03-25T21:59:00 #kisslinux <jslick> Maybe a musl thing?
2021-03-25T22:00:47 #kisslinux <dilyn> quite probably
2021-03-25T22:01:22 #kisslinux <dilyn> let's investigate mini_dump_writer_linux!
2021-03-25T22:01:47 #kisslinux <dilyn> https://github.com/msirringhaus/minidump_writer_linux/issues/4
2021-03-25T22:01:48 #kisslinux <dilyn> hey looky
2021-03-25T22:05:55 #kisslinux <jslick> eh linked void issue; looks like they have a disable-minidump.patch
2021-03-25T22:06:03 #kisslinux <dilyn> neat