[2022-01-05T01:18:55Z] <midfavila-laptop> so 
[2022-01-05T01:18:57Z] <midfavila-laptop> update on glazier
[2022-01-05T01:19:30Z] <midfavila-laptop> i can certainly appreciate its small size and the author's mentality, and some of the decisions make glazier feel very similar to rio - not necessarily a bad thing
[2022-01-05T01:19:41Z] <midfavila-laptop> however, for a laptop, it's a horrible choice of interface
[2022-01-05T01:20:04Z] <midfavila-laptop> also it seems to assume you have a five-button mouse..?
[2022-01-05T01:31:40Z] <phinxy> What is glazier and rio.
[2022-01-05T01:32:08Z] <phinxy> I love to read devsonacid, lots of things to agree with there
[2022-01-05T01:35:26Z] <midfavila-laptop> glazier's a window manager that was suggested to me earlier by sad_plan iirc
[2022-01-05T01:35:37Z] <midfavila-laptop> it's a floating window manager that's primarily mouse-oriented
[2022-01-05T01:35:45Z] <midfavila-laptop> rio is the window manager used on plan 9
[2022-01-05T01:35:57Z] <midfavila-laptop> it, too, is a mouse-oriented floating design
[2022-01-05T04:21:57Z] <testuser[m]> Hi
[2022-01-05T04:22:21Z] <acheam> hi testuser[m]!
[2022-01-05T04:22:28Z] <acheam> how is your year going? new semester?
[2022-01-05T04:22:38Z] <acheam> oh shoot, song of the day
[2022-01-05T04:23:09Z] <testuser[m]> dilyn: just linking the pipewire config in /usr/share/alsa.conf.d/99-pipewire.default to /etc/asoundrc worked for me
[2022-01-05T04:23:22Z] <testuser[m]> acheam: good
[2022-01-05T04:23:33Z] <testuser[m]> And yea
[2022-01-05T04:50:19Z] <dilyn> hm wtf bud
[2022-01-05T04:50:23Z] <dilyn> yeah that's it. /etc/asoundrc
[2022-01-05T04:50:45Z] <dilyn> https://github.com/dilyn-corner/KISS-me/blob/7f72b0ce1347acc310cc2bcbab86ff762820455d/extra/pipewire/build#L27 idk why i did asound.conf
[2022-01-05T04:52:56Z] <hyrc_> i dive into alsa for like two days and then forget everything
[2022-01-05T04:53:05Z] <hyrc_> at least i have loopback recording working
[2022-01-05T04:53:21Z] <hyrc_> https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/886623741721862194/923815090367655956/unjabbedman4.webp?width=740&height=646
[2022-01-05T04:53:27Z] <hyrc_> schwarzenegger
[2022-01-05T04:54:16Z] <dilyn> unbased
[2022-01-05T04:56:07Z] <hyrc_> https://media.patriots.win/post/DTuyjl5i.jpeg  Egyptian President Abdel Fattah Saeed Hussain Khalil el-Sisi receiving his
[2022-01-05T05:01:39Z] <testuser[m]> Bruh
[2022-01-05T05:01:50Z] <testuser[m]> dilyn: asound.conf is for putting in ur home
[2022-01-05T05:01:56Z] <testuser[m]> Idk why the difference
[2022-01-05T05:02:09Z] <testuser[m]> No it wws .asoundrc
[2022-01-05T05:02:15Z] <dilyn> what a ballsy thing to do lmfao
[2022-01-05T05:02:17Z] <testuser[m]> Idk i forgor 💀
[2022-01-05T05:02:18Z] <hyrc_> right
[2022-01-05T05:02:34Z] <dilyn> yeah asoundrc also goes in ~ which is what I previously had defining the default pcm/card
[2022-01-05T05:02:41Z] <hyrc_> you can do /etc/asound.conf too though i mean.. there's no reason to make it per-user
[2022-01-05T05:02:44Z] <dilyn> real question: do I still need that or is pipewire super genius...
[2022-01-05T05:03:06Z] <dilyn> there was a moment where inexplicably /etc/asound.conf would never work for me but ~/.asoundrc DID
[2022-01-05T05:03:12Z] <dilyn> alsa sparks joy :v
[2022-01-05T05:04:38Z] <hyrc_> it's gotten a bit better
[2022-01-05T05:06:04Z] <hyrc_> havent played with pipewire. i figure it's new so there has to be something bad about it
[2022-01-05T05:07:34Z] <dilyn> it's better than pulse!
[2022-01-05T05:07:37Z] <dilyn> and pretty comprehensive
[2022-01-05T05:07:44Z] <dilyn> and 8mb
[2022-01-05T05:08:03Z] <hyrc_> good to hear
[2022-01-05T05:08:49Z] <hyrc_> This study shows that after three months the vaccine effectiveness of Pfizer & Moderna against Omicron is actually negative. Pfizer customers are 76.5% more likely and Moderna customers are 39.3% more likely to be infected than unvaxxed people. 
[2022-01-05T05:08:59Z] <hyrc_> https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21267966v2.full.pdf+html
[2022-01-05T05:11:09Z] <dilyn> lmfao why are so many websites that link to this study climate change denial websites
[2022-01-05T05:15:01Z] <noocsharp> sir, this is a channel for a linux distribution
[2022-01-05T05:15:28Z] <dilyn> here, in the middle of this wendy's
[2022-01-05T05:32:32Z] <hyrc_> sorry thought i was in a diff channel there
[2022-01-05T07:23:02Z] <testuser[m]> noocsharp: maybe the microchips in the vaccines run KISS so they keep talking about it here
[2022-01-05T07:59:37Z] <Acid-Bong> Question on GKiss.
[2022-01-05T07:59:38Z] <Acid-Bong> One of the differences in GKiss installation is that one should clone the community repo to build and use `glibc`. Does it mean that i still have to use kisslinux/repo with it or should i rather use gkisslinux/grepo for base system?
[2022-01-05T08:01:52Z] <testuser[m]> acid-bong: its just for building not using
[2022-01-05T08:01:59Z] <testuser[m]> cuz glibc needs some stuff for building thats in community repo
[2022-01-05T08:02:15Z] <testuser[m]> it needs GNU awk for some stuff
[2022-01-05T08:02:18Z] <testuser[m]> compile-time
[2022-01-05T08:02:31Z] <testuser[m]> and u have to use gkisslinux/grepo
[2022-01-05T08:03:04Z] <Acid-Bong> so, grepo+community+gcommunity it is, right?
[2022-01-05T08:03:47Z] <testuser[m]> no
[2022-01-05T08:03:51Z] <testuser[m]> grepo+community
[2022-01-05T08:04:00Z] <testuser[m]> gcommunity is not required
[2022-01-05T08:04:14Z] <testuser[m]> it doesnt have anything except pulseaudio and dbus
[2022-01-05T08:04:49Z] <Acid-Bong> maybe for dbus i'll use it, i'm a pipewire person
[2022-01-05T08:05:00Z] <testuser[m]> pipewire is patched in community to not use dbus
[2022-01-05T08:05:16Z] <testuser[m]> dbus is only needed for screen sharing and thats another mess since u need to package 20 extra things for it to work
[2022-01-05T08:05:59Z] <testuser[m]> u can use v4l2 as a virtual camera and record ur screen to that with wf-recorder and use that as device in ur browser
[2022-01-05T08:09:07Z] <Acid-Bong> what about display managers? i was tryna use runit on Kiss and looked for info in Void Linux docs. And there like half of services depend on dbus running
[2022-01-05T08:09:32Z] <testuser[m]> do u really need a display manager
[2022-01-05T08:09:39Z] <testuser[m]> u can just start from tty
[2022-01-05T08:09:48Z] <Acid-Bong> well yeah
[2022-01-05T08:10:22Z] <testuser[m]> u can do it but u will have to do some work, build everything with support for dbus and elogind and whatever
[2022-01-05T08:10:59Z] <testuser[m]> kiss default is busybox init which is a stripped down version of runit btw
[2022-01-05T08:11:07Z] <testuser[m]> but u can switch to the real runit
[2022-01-05T08:13:59Z] <Acid-Bong> i tried using runit instead of baseinit, system didn't load 🤷
[2022-01-05T08:15:10Z] <Acid-Bong> ok, i see xinit in the xorg repo, that's already great
[2022-01-05T08:15:32Z] <testuser[m]> https://github.com/kiss-community/website/blob/master/docs/wiki/init/changing-init.txt
[2022-01-05T08:21:44Z] <Acid-Bong> does it work for the first installation, within chroot?
[2022-01-05T08:26:25Z] <testuser[m]> wdym
[2022-01-05T08:27:17Z] <konimex> I mean, sure, since the "installation" is literally extracting the chroot into a directory/mountpoint
[2022-01-05T08:36:03Z] <Acid-Bong> i mean, the guide that testuser shared is on changing init, not installing it in the first place
[2022-01-05T08:36:23Z] <testuser[m]> installing is just kiss b runit
[2022-01-05T08:37:02Z] <Acid-Bong> or is the difference is that i can skip the part on killing the active init, since there's no such?
[2022-01-05T08:39:28Z] <Acid-Bong> ah, i understood now
[2022-01-05T08:39:57Z] <Acid-Bong> it showed me poweroff and reboot conflicts, and i didn't resolve them
[2022-01-05T09:57:05Z] <hyrc_> it's nice you're avoiding dbus
[2022-01-05T10:50:36Z] <bibliocar_> point about suckless having failed. I know it's bad to police language, but I do think they went about things the wrong way. It's really bad to be derisive to other people's work, especially when done for free(ish).
[2022-01-05T10:52:12Z] <bibliocar_> should emphasize learning opportunities created by easy to understand software, and other benefits, instead of leading with how other people are doing it wrong.
[2022-01-05T11:01:59Z] <bibliocar_> I wonder how many of there "elite hackers" were just people wanting learn from simple software, and who wouldn't be able to make complex programs. What a terrible environment for people like that to begin getting involved.
[2022-01-05T11:03:28Z] <cem> I disagree with your stance
[2022-01-05T11:04:09Z] <bibliocar_> On what points?
[2022-01-05T11:04:48Z] <cem> Sure they are really rude to people creating free software
[2022-01-05T11:05:15Z] <cem> But some of those software are really harmful to the general environment of UNIX
[2022-01-05T11:06:25Z] <cem> People like Poettering are envisioned to make Linux Windows-like
[2022-01-05T11:06:44Z] <cem> Caring nothing about portability, compatibility, or hell, even security
[2022-01-05T11:08:00Z] <bibliocar_> I mean, you can choose not to use the software, the rest is politics... except that's not true and I know it. Hmm.
[2022-01-05T11:08:48Z] <cem> Not really
[2022-01-05T11:09:02Z] <cem> You can't compile lots of software without gcc or clang
[2022-01-05T11:09:43Z] <bibliocar_> My personal opinion is that systemd is vender lock-in in that people learn how to use it, instead of learning how the system works underneath.
[2022-01-05T11:09:44Z] <cem> lots of stuff depends on udev
[2022-01-05T11:11:12Z] <bibliocar_> But what about more grey areas like gnu?
[2022-01-05T11:11:58Z] <cem> Well, I'm more okay with gnu than lots of people here, but I still don't like most of their decisions
[2022-01-05T11:12:31Z] <cem> But I also get it, GNU was created as a competitor to a commercial system that was UNIX
[2022-01-05T11:12:43Z] <bibliocar_> I guess by the same token I started with, judging suckless, ignoring standards and breaking compatability is bad on their part as well.
[2022-01-05T11:13:11Z] <bibliocar_> Yeah, and gpl was on much less sure footing, so you have to make your software different.
[2022-01-05T11:13:56Z] <bibliocar_> It seems like there was a time period where everyone was focussed on performance and features, and nowadays we just want something that'l work reliably.
[2022-01-05T11:14:04Z] <cem> Yeah, I don't like that they are breaking lots of standards, but as I said, it was the correct move at that point of time
[2022-01-05T11:14:44Z] <cem> Now that free software is easily and widely available, compatibility and standard compliance is much more important
[2022-01-05T11:17:05Z] <bibliocar_> I'm not sure, though. I honestly don't like posix. I recognize it's by far the best we have, much better than stuff put out by redhat, but there needs to be a way for standards to compete in the way that software does.
[2022-01-05T11:19:05Z] <bibliocar_> If that makes sense. I get very nervous about instutions to which there are no competitors.
[2022-01-05T11:21:38Z] <cem> it has its flaws, but I think posix is pretty much alright
[2022-01-05T11:23:47Z] <cem> also the flaws are usually due to conflicting historic implementations, so it's not really their fault
[2022-01-05T11:27:06Z] <bibliocar_> Posix is about as good as it gets. And those who ignore it tend to do so sporatically, with surprise gotchas that are about as bad as you can get.
[2022-01-05T11:28:27Z] <bibliocar_> But i think portability can also come from being well documented and simple code that could be easily adopted anywhere.
[2022-01-05T11:30:10Z] <bibliocar_> It's funny, though, because people complain about ifdefs making complicated code, but what's the difference between that, and having different versions of the same software for different platforms? That's not a rhetorical question, by the way.
[2022-01-05T11:30:54Z] <bibliocar_> I'm a newb
[2022-01-05T11:31:20Z] <testuser[m]> Give an example where many ifdefs are required
[2022-01-05T11:31:28Z] <testuser[m]> It will have different solution
[2022-01-05T11:31:32Z] <bibliocar_> busybox >:
[2022-01-05T11:31:35Z] <testuser[m]> Depending on what its for
[2022-01-05T11:32:08Z] <cem> I don't think ifdefs are bad
[2022-01-05T11:32:37Z] <bibliocar_> I guess not, I just read someone complain about a "maze of ifdefs" once.
[2022-01-05T11:32:57Z] <testuser[m]> If ur just guarding a whole function with an ifdef then its fine
[2022-01-05T11:32:59Z] <cem> Sure, if it's a maze of ifdefs, the code is harder to debug
[2022-01-05T11:33:04Z] <testuser[m]> If u got 10 ifdefs in 1 function then not
[2022-01-05T11:34:51Z] <testuser[m]> Busybox ifdefs seem fine, mostly for constants or debugging
[2022-01-05T11:41:12Z] <bibliocar_> Okay. Thank you.
[2022-01-05T11:42:18Z] <bibliocar_> sometimes i wonder if I shouldn't like, somehow just put out a fork of something that's really just all the ifdefs configured to my specific purposes, and hack on that code only, porting changes upstream.
[2022-01-05T11:42:44Z] <bibliocar_> scrolling is a pain.
[2022-01-05T11:42:50Z] <testuser[m]> Lol u will have a bad time merging upstream fixes
[2022-01-05T11:44:07Z] <bibliocar_> i have to go though, thanks.
[2022-01-05T14:57:36Z] <midfavila-laptop> morning everyone
[2022-01-05T14:58:03Z] <testuser[m]> hi
[2022-01-05T14:58:04Z] <midfavila-laptop> re: ifdefs fwiw plan 9's source tree didn't (doesn't?) have a single one for decades across like a dozen different architectures
[2022-01-05T14:58:32Z] <testuser[m]> they used completely different sources then?
[2022-01-05T14:58:37Z] <midfavila-laptop> no
[2022-01-05T14:58:40Z] <midfavila-laptop> they just wrote portable code
[2022-01-05T14:58:41Z] <midfavila-laptop> :v
[2022-01-05T14:58:48Z] <testuser[m]> bruh
[2022-01-05T14:58:58Z] <midfavila-laptop> don't optimize for a specific architecture and you won't need to rewrite shit for other architectures
[2022-01-05T14:59:18Z] <midfavila-laptop> love me plan, love me nine. simple as.
[2022-01-05T15:02:30Z] <midfavila-laptop> " Conditional compilation, even with #ifdef, is used sparingly in Plan 9. The only architecture-dependent #ifdefs in the system are in low-level routines in the graphics library. Instead, we avoid such dependencies or, when necessary, isolate them in separate source files or libraries. Besides making code hard to read, #ifdefs make it impossible to know what source is compiled into the binary or whether source protected by them will c
[2022-01-05T15:02:30Z] <midfavila-laptop> ompile or work properly. They make it harder to maintain software."
[2022-01-05T15:02:36Z] <midfavila-laptop> https://p9f.org/sys/doc/9.html
[2022-01-05T15:46:26Z] <op_4> midfavila-laptop: i eventually sorted out {tinyramfs+LVM+LUKS,eiwd,FDE,grub} and now kiss boots to a functional system :D
[2022-01-05T16:07:04Z] <foamingatmouth> Hi has anyone had trouble building webkit2gtk? It manages to get all the way to 100% but fails saying that it can't find WebCore/CoordinatedGraphicsLayer.h
[2022-01-05T17:02:54Z] <phoebos> oh dip links supports finger://
[2022-01-05T17:22:10Z] <midfavila-laptop> grats op_4
[2022-01-05T17:42:00Z] <Acid-Bong> does glibc repo have no GnuPG signatures? or should i still set up the verification?
[2022-01-05T17:54:42Z] <testuser[m]> No
[2022-01-05T17:55:13Z] <testuser[m]> It uses the kiss repo as a submodule for most packages so u could probably set up verification for the submodule
[2022-01-05T17:55:17Z] <testuser[m]> But it's not required
[2022-01-05T18:13:15Z] <bibliocar> So heres a question: If there's a static only linux distribution, what's the point of file formats like elf?
[2022-01-05T18:14:25Z] <bibliocar> I may be misunderstanding a lot.
[2022-01-05T18:22:23Z] <testuser[m]> Static bin is still ELF
[2022-01-05T18:29:05Z] <bibliocar> I'm wondering if there are fields and tables in there that are no longer used in that type of system.
[2022-01-05T18:29:53Z] <bibliocar> or do static binaries use them, too?
[2022-01-05T18:32:42Z] <bibliocar> I'll research this, and write about it later.
[2022-01-05T18:40:15Z] <noocsharp> there are sections that aren't used, but these are just excluded in static binaries
[2022-01-05T18:44:00Z] <bibliocar> Okay, I see it. I need to learn a bit more to know which is which though.
[2022-01-05T18:48:24Z] <phoebos> eh, time to clear my 4.67GB ccache
[2022-01-05T18:48:54Z] <phoebos> now i can breathe
[2022-01-05T18:49:04Z] <phoebos> i wonder if i'll notice a difference now
[2022-01-05T18:58:26Z] <testuser[m]> Soon
[2022-01-05T19:08:57Z] <phoebos> compiling the kernel took maybe 25% longer /shrug
[2022-01-05T19:09:41Z] <phoebos> and that was it making new cache as well
[2022-01-05T19:14:19Z] <phoebos> ok what the fuck i needed to do this ages ago
[2022-01-05T19:14:28Z] <phoebos> building with fresh cache took 3 minutes
[2022-01-05T19:14:32Z] <phoebos> instead of 18
[2022-01-05T19:14:39Z] <phoebos> what joy
[2022-01-05T19:15:08Z] <phoebos> only 115M of ccache
[2022-01-05T21:53:21Z] <phinxy> 200GB of cache - just a kisslinux thing
[2022-01-05T21:54:34Z] <phoebos> phinxy: of ccache? owch
[2022-01-05T21:56:26Z] <phinxy> the .cache from compiling countless of firefox's with KISS_DEBUG=1
[2022-01-05T21:57:03Z] <phoebos> oh
[2022-01-05T21:57:08Z] <phoebos> why do you do that
[2022-01-05T21:58:57Z] <phinxy> Wanted to get LTO / PGO working
[2022-01-05T21:59:12Z] <cem> don't you limit your cache size at all?
[2022-01-05T21:59:23Z] <cem> 200G is a lot
[2022-01-05T22:00:35Z] <phoebos> why not test in the same tree rather than starting from scratch each time
[2022-01-05T22:02:39Z] <phinxy> cem, I removed /root/.cache/kiss, is there something automated for that?
[2022-01-05T22:05:11Z] <phoebos> not sure what you want but there's kiss-cacheman
[2022-01-05T22:05:24Z] <phinxy> phoebos, I felt at the time I wouldn't be able to reproduce KISS's buildscript, its not trivial
[2022-01-05T22:06:22Z] <phoebos> you could always put a `sh > /dev/tty` at some point in the buildscript, and make sure to export all the required variables, and then test in there
[2022-01-05T22:10:59Z] <phinxy> What would the `sh > /dev/tty` accomplish?
[2022-01-05T22:12:58Z] <phinxy> launching a shell in the same state as the kiss buildscript is?
[2022-01-05T22:20:16Z] <phoebos> yes
[2022-01-05T22:21:08Z] <phoebos> so if you go in in the right place then you've got all the patches applied and can run ./mach build with your own options or whatever
[2022-01-05T22:23:29Z] <phoebos> like for firefox, i'd put it on line 105 and then i've got all the variables ready
[2022-01-05T22:48:47Z] <acheam> thats a nifty idea
[2022-01-05T22:49:02Z] <acheam> much more convinient than $KISS_DEBUG imo
[2022-01-05T22:49:35Z] <acheam> I wonder if there is an easy way of duplicating the environment...
[2022-01-05T22:50:44Z] <acheam> "sh -c $(env | awk '{print "export " $0}') > /dev/tty" or something
[2022-01-05T22:56:01Z] <sad_plan> hi
[2022-01-05T22:57:26Z] <acheam> hi
[2022-01-05T22:58:08Z] <sad_plan> how do you do? C:
[2022-01-05T22:58:13Z] <acheam> I'm okay
[2022-01-05T22:58:22Z] <acheam> finishing up my last college application!
[2022-01-05T22:58:29Z] <acheam> but the most labor-intensive one
[2022-01-05T22:58:42Z] <acheam> and my farthest shot
[2022-01-05T22:58:51Z] <sad_plan> what are you applying for? I mean, which study or whatever its called :p
[2022-01-05T22:59:05Z] <sad_plan> shoot for the stars 
[2022-01-05T22:59:37Z] <acheam> and if I don't make it, I'll land in a bunch of wasted time and an application fee!
[2022-01-05T23:00:08Z] <acheam> I'm applying for a bunch of stuff.... classics in some places, computer science in others, engineering in others
[2022-01-05T23:00:09Z] <sad_plan> oh, that would certainbly be a massive bummer..
[2022-01-05T23:00:18Z] <sad_plan> cool
[2022-01-05T23:00:38Z] <acheam> well I'm expecting it for most schools, so isn't a huge bummer
[2022-01-05T23:02:34Z] <sad_plan> nice
[2022-01-05T23:04:06Z] <sad_plan> ive built mpv statically earlier today, albeit no sound. which is somewhat curious
[2022-01-05T23:06:09Z] <acheam> interesting
[2022-01-05T23:10:58Z] <sad_plan> yeh