Poetry in Gemini

Miguel de Luis Espinosa <enteka (a) fastmail.com>

Poetry is dear to my soul. And in the Big Bloated Web is a pain to set it 
up properly. So, I resolved to explore it in Gemini. 

My first wee experiment is a pseudo-haiku Flor 4. This little poem or 
something has five spaces at the start of the first line. And it's 
displayed like that by amphora, However, the proxies I've tried collapse 
those spaces. I suppose due to the way HTML and CSS behave by default. 

=> gemini://enteka.xyz/flor4.gemini

Link to individual message.

acdw <acdw (a) acdw.net>

On 2021-01-25 (Monday) at 20:58, Miguel de Luis Espinosa <enteka at fastmail.com> wrote:

> Poetry is dear to my soul. And in the Big Bloated Web is a pain to set 
> it up properly. So, I resolved to explore it in Gemini. 
> 
> My first wee experiment is a pseudo-haiku Flor 4. This little poem or 
> something has five spaces at the start of the first line. And it's 
> displayed like that by amphora, However, the proxies I've tried 
> collapse those spaces. I suppose due to the way HTML and CSS behave by 
> default. 
> 
> => gemini://enteka.xyz/flor4.gemini

I've also had issues typesetting poetry in various markup languages; LaTeX 
has an alright mode but for HTML I use <pre style="font-family:serif;"> 
etc.  In fact, the only extension to the text/gemini format that I would 
imagine being behind would be a preformatted, but not monospaced font, 
block.  Not that that really makes any sense.

Anyway, when I've typeset poetry in Gemini I put the lines in between 
preformatting blocks -- at least that keeps the lines correctly spaced.

-- 
~ acdw
acdw.net | breadpunk.club/~breadw

Link to individual message.

Miguel de Luis Espinosa <enteka (a) fastmail.com>

On Mon, Jan 25, 2021, at 9:11 PM, acdw wrote:
> On 2021-01-25 (Monday) at 20:58, Miguel de Luis Espinosa 
> <enteka at fastmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Poetry is dear to my soul. And in the Big Bloated Web is a pain to set 
> > it up properly. So, I resolved to explore it in Gemini. 
> > 
> > My first wee experiment is a pseudo-haiku Flor 4. This little poem or 
> > something has five spaces at the start of the first line. And it's 
> > displayed like that by amphora, However, the proxies I've tried 
> > collapse those spaces. I suppose due to the way HTML and CSS behave by 
> > default. 
> > 
> > => gemini://enteka.xyz/flor4.gemini
> 
> I've also had issues typesetting poetry in various markup languages; 
> LaTeX has an alright mode but for HTML I use <pre 
> style="font-family:serif;"> etc.  In fact, the only extension to the 
> text/gemini format that I would imagine being behind would be a 
> preformatted, but not monospaced font, block.  Not that that really 
> makes any sense.
> 
> Anyway, when I've typeset poetry in Gemini I put the lines in between 
> preformatting blocks -- at least that keeps the lines correctly spaced.
> 
> -- 
> ~ acdw
> acdw.net | breadpunk.club/~breadw
>

In HTML, out of desperation, I created my own tags <verso> and <estrofa> 
and some CSS for quite basic stuff. Not saying it's kosher, though.

But the thing is that amphora (haven't tested elsewhere) does respect the spacing
even when it's at the beginning of the line, even in regular gemini text (i.e not
preformated). However the proxis fail at this. 

I feel like the web forgot poetry, perhaps Gemini could do better. The
potential is there.

Link to individual message.

contact@medusae.space <contact (a) medusae.space>

Le 2021-01-25 22:23, Miguel de Luis Espinosa a ?crit?:
> But the thing is that amphora (haven't tested elsewhere) does respect
> the spacing
> even when it's at the beginning of the line, even in regular gemini
> text (i.e not
> preformated). However the proxis fail at this.

It works on amfora, but it does'nt on other clients (proxies, lagrange, 
etc.).
I guess the best way to do what you want is to use preformated text, 
it's the only way to really preserve the layout you choose.

Link to individual message.

Miguel de Luis Espinosa <enteka (a) fastmail.com>



On Mon, Jan 25, 2021, at 9:35 PM, contact at medusae.space wrote:
> Le 2021-01-25 22:23, Miguel de Luis Espinosa a ?crit?:
> > But the thing is that amphora (haven't tested elsewhere) does respect
> > the spacing
> > even when it's at the beginning of the line, even in regular gemini
> > text (i.e not
> > preformated). However the proxis fail at this.
> 
> It works on amfora, but it does'nt on other clients (proxies, lagrange, 
> etc.).
> I guess the best way to do what you want is to use preformated text, 
> it's the only way to really preserve the layout you choose.
>

:( it's a pity

Link to individual message.

Omar Polo <op (a) omarpolo.com>


contact at medusae.space writes:

> Le 2021-01-25 22:23, Miguel de Luis Espinosa a ?crit :
>> But the thing is that amphora (haven't tested elsewhere) does respect
>> the spacing
>> even when it's at the beginning of the line, even in regular gemini
>> text (i.e not
>> preformated). However the proxis fail at this.
>
> It works on amfora, but it does'nt on other clients (proxies,
> lagrange, etc.).
> I guess the best way to do what you want is to use preformated text,
> it's the only way to really preserve the layout you choose.

I was about to write that the specification requires spaces to be kept,
but it doesn't: it only requires the preservation of empty lines, not
spaces.  However, the portal at portal.mozz.us and elpher (an emacs
client) preserve the whitespaces.

Speaking of CSS, one way to keep the whitespace is to use "white-space:
pre-wrap": it's what I'm using on my blog (to keep the double space at
the end of the sentences) and also what portal.mozz.us does IIRC.

Link to individual message.

acdw <acdw (a) acdw.net>

On 2021-01-25 (Monday) at 21:23, Miguel de Luis Espinosa <enteka at fastmail.com> wrote:

> In HTML, out of desperation, I created my own tags <verso> and <estrofa> 
> and some CSS for quite basic stuff. Not saying it's kosher, though.
> 
> But the thing is that amphora (haven't tested elsewhere) does respect 
> the spacing
> even when it's at the beginning of the line, even in regular gemini 
> text (i.e not
> preformated). However the proxis fail at this. 
> 
> I feel like the web forgot poetry, perhaps Gemini could do better. The
> potential is there.

Despite the danger of throwing this off-topic, here's how I mark-up poetry 
on my website (mostly; I'm correcting some things here):

 ```html
<p class="verse">
<span class="line">Twinkle, twinkle little star</span>
<span class="line">how I wonder what you are</span>
...
</p>
 ```

 ```css
.verse .line {
    text-indent: 1ch;
    margin-left: -1ch;
    position: relative;
    left: 1ch;
    display: block;
    white-space: pre-wrap;
}
 ```

I like having each line in a <span> because it feels more ... semantic, that way.

-- 
~ acdw
acdw.net | breadpunk.club/~breadw

Link to individual message.

Miguel de Luis Espinosa <enteka (a) fastmail.com>



On Tue, Jan 26, 2021, at 3:41 PM, acdw wrote:
> On 2021-01-25 (Monday) at 21:23, Miguel de Luis Espinosa 
> <enteka at fastmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > In HTML, out of desperation, I created my own tags <verso> and <estrofa> 
> > and some CSS for quite basic stuff. Not saying it's kosher, though.
> > 
> > But the thing is that amphora (haven't tested elsewhere) does respect 
> > the spacing
> > even when it's at the beginning of the line, even in regular gemini 
> > text (i.e not
> > preformated). However the proxis fail at this. 
> > 
> > I feel like the web forgot poetry, perhaps Gemini could do better. The
> > potential is there.
> 
> Despite the danger of throwing this off-topic, here's how I mark-up 
> poetry on my website (mostly; I'm correcting some things here):
> 
> ```html
> <p class="verse">
> <span class="line">Twinkle, twinkle little star</span>
> <span class="line">how I wonder what you are</span>
> ...
> </p>
> ```
> 
> ```css
> .verse .line {
>     text-indent: 1ch;
>     margin-left: -1ch;
>     position: relative;
>     left: 1ch;
>     display: block;
>     white-space: pre-wrap;
> }
> ```
> 
> I like having each line in a <span> because it feels more ... semantic, 
> that way.
> 
> -- 
> ~ acdw
> acdw.net | breadpunk.club/~breadw
>

That's one way of doing it. You are addressing the issue that lines, not 
paragraphs are the units of a poem. 

However the sad thing is that you need to be sort of a "computer person" 
to dare to try this stuff. Many people who do poetry will not touch code 
with a 6 meters pole. But then again these are not the kind of people who 
would easily experiment in Gemini or Gopher.

I'm considering suggesting using pdf, just do what you have to do in your 
word processor of choice and print as pdf and it's all nice for all of us.

Link to individual message.

Joop Laan <joop (a) salta.to>

??????? Original Message ???????
On Tuesday, January 26, 2021 5:41 PM, Miguel de Luis Espinosa <enteka at 
fastmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Jan 26, 2021, at 3:41 PM, acdw wrote:
>
> > On 2021-01-25 (Monday) at 21:23, Miguel de Luis Espinosa
> > enteka at fastmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > In HTML, out of desperation, I created my own tags <verso> and <estrofa>
> > > and some CSS for quite basic stuff. Not saying it's kosher, though.
> > > But the thing is that amphora (haven't tested elsewhere) does respect
> > > the spacing
> > > even when it's at the beginning of the line, even in regular gemini
> > > text (i.e not
> > > preformated). However the proxis fail at this.
> > > I feel like the web forgot poetry, perhaps Gemini could do better. The
> > > potential is there.
> >
> > Despite the danger of throwing this off-topic, here's how I mark-up
> > poetry on my website (mostly; I'm correcting some things here):
> >
> >     <p class="verse">
> >     <span class="line">Twinkle, twinkle little star</span>
> >     <span class="line">how I wonder what you are</span>
> >     ...
> >     </p>
> >
> >
> >     .verse .line {
> >         text-indent: 1ch;
> >         margin-left: -1ch;
> >         position: relative;
> >         left: 1ch;
> >         display: block;
> >         white-space: pre-wrap;
> >     }
> >
> >
> > I like having each line in a <span> because it feels more ... semantic,
> > that way.
> > --
> > ~ acdw
> > acdw.net | breadpunk.club/~breadw
>
> That's one way of doing it. You are addressing the issue that lines, not 
paragraphs are the units of a poem.
>
> However the sad thing is that you need to be sort of a "computer person" 
to dare to try this stuff. Many people who do poetry will not touch code 
with a 6 meters pole. But then again these are not the kind of people who 
would easily experiment in Gemini or Gopher.
>
> I'm considering suggesting using pdf, just do what you have to do in 
your word processor of choice and print as pdf and it's all nice for all of us.

What about:

 ```html
<pre class="poetry">
Twinkle, twinkle little star
how I wonder what you are
</pre>

Would that work?

Link to individual message.

Miguel de Luis Espinosa <enteka (a) fastmail.com>



On Tue, Jan 26, 2021, at 4:52 PM, Joop Laan wrote:
> ??????? Original Message ???????
> On Tuesday, January 26, 2021 5:41 PM, Miguel de Luis Espinosa 
> <enteka at fastmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 26, 2021, at 3:41 PM, acdw wrote:
> >
> > > On 2021-01-25 (Monday) at 21:23, Miguel de Luis Espinosa
> > > enteka at fastmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > In HTML, out of desperation, I created my own tags <verso> and <estrofa>
> > > > and some CSS for quite basic stuff. Not saying it's kosher, though.
> > > > But the thing is that amphora (haven't tested elsewhere) does respect
> > > > the spacing
> > > > even when it's at the beginning of the line, even in regular gemini
> > > > text (i.e not
> > > > preformated). However the proxis fail at this.
> > > > I feel like the web forgot poetry, perhaps Gemini could do better. The
> > > > potential is there.
> > >
> > > Despite the danger of throwing this off-topic, here's how I mark-up
> > > poetry on my website (mostly; I'm correcting some things here):
> > >
> > >     <p class="verse">
> > >     <span class="line">Twinkle, twinkle little star</span>
> > >     <span class="line">how I wonder what you are</span>
> > >     ...
> > >     </p>
> > >
> > >
> > >     .verse .line {
> > >         text-indent: 1ch;
> > >         margin-left: -1ch;
> > >         position: relative;
> > >         left: 1ch;
> > >         display: block;
> > >         white-space: pre-wrap;
> > >     }
> > >
> > >
> > > I like having each line in a <span> because it feels more ... semantic,
> > > that way.
> > > --
> > > ~ acdw
> > > acdw.net | breadpunk.club/~breadw
> >
> > That's one way of doing it. You are addressing the issue that lines, 
not paragraphs are the units of a poem.
> >
> > However the sad thing is that you need to be sort of a "computer 
person" to dare to try this stuff. Many people who do poetry will not 
touch code with a 6 meters pole. But then again these are not the kind of 
people who would easily experiment in Gemini or Gopher.
> >
> > I'm considering suggesting using pdf, just do what you have to do in 
your word processor of choice and print as pdf and it's all nice for all of us.
> 
> What about:
> 
> ```html
> <pre class="poetry">
> Twinkle, twinkle little star
> how I wonder what you are
> </pre>
> 
> Would that work?
>

if the client can parse html and css, but if it can do that wouldn't you 
be recreating most of the web?

Link to individual message.

acdw <acdw (a) acdw.net>

On 2021-01-26 (Tuesday) at 16:55, Miguel de Luis Espinosa <enteka at fastmail.com> wrote:

> 
> 
> On Tue, Jan 26, 2021, at 4:52 PM, Joop Laan wrote:
> > What about:
> > 
> > ```html
> > <pre class="poetry">
> > Twinkle, twinkle little star
> > how I wonder what you are
> > </pre>
> > 
> > Would that work?
> >
> 
> if the client can parse html and css, but if it can do that wouldn't 
> you be recreating most of the web?
>

IMO, yes.  Which is why, with Gemini, I stick to

 ```verse
Twinkle, twinkle...
 ```

It's "close enough".

-- 
~ acdw
acdw.net | breadpunk.club/~breadw

Link to individual message.

contact@medusae.space <contact (a) medusae.space>

Le 2021-01-26 17:41, Miguel de Luis Espinosa a ?crit?:
> I'm considering suggesting using pdf, just do what you have to do in
> your word processor of choice and print as pdf and it's all nice for
> all of us.

Actually that's a good idea. PDF is a great format for preserving
everything you want and be sure that's it's displayed nicely on
other's computers.

And gemini can serve PDFs without any kind of issues.

Link to individual message.

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