[2022-12-07T06:29:41Z] <wael[m]> Hi
[2022-12-07T06:29:53Z] <sad_plan> hi
[2022-12-07T06:43:52Z] <wael[m]> Hi sad_plan aka hovercats
[2022-12-07T06:44:08Z] <wael[m]> https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc-patches/2022-December/607959.html
[2022-12-07T06:46:38Z] <sad_plan> oh, more rust stuff. I swear to god, everything is written in rust these days...
[2022-12-07T10:11:46Z] <testuser[m]> hi
[2022-12-07T10:12:07Z] <testuser[m]> sad_plan whats wrong with it lol
[2022-12-07T10:12:19Z] <testuser[m]> from a dev's standpoint
[2022-12-07T10:12:20Z] <testuser[m]> its much better
[2022-12-07T10:12:23Z] <testuser[m]> packaging is pain
[2022-12-07T10:21:45Z] <sad_plan> Im sure its great from a devs standpoint. probably alot of nice features (muh memory safty. lol)
[2022-12-07T10:21:57Z] <sad_plan> but yes, the packaging is mostly my issue with it
[2022-12-07T10:23:18Z] <aelspire> And due to inclusion in linux and in firefox rust toolchain is expected to be installed on most linux systems
[2022-12-07T10:23:37Z] <aelspire> so amount of rust programs will grow
[2022-12-07T10:23:54Z] <sad_plan> im also sure its worth pointing out, im rather unfamiliar with rust to begin with. with the only exception of me using rust to build firefox..
[2022-12-07T10:24:26Z] <sad_plan> I would like to use a more minimal setup, like a webkit browser like surf, vimb or something of the sort. buut those are less ideal tbh
[2022-12-07T10:24:33Z] <aelspire> I'm in progress of doing comparison of rust and zig and comparing it to my C and C++ knowledge
[2022-12-07T10:24:45Z] <aelspire> so far rust is not bad
[2022-12-07T10:24:57Z] <aelspire> im not sure if it's good yet
[2022-12-07T10:24:58Z] <sad_plan> aelspire: yeah, I see more and more rust programs, so im sure itll just continue to grow, as is the case with go. I tend to see more rust/go programs as I go than before
[2022-12-07T10:25:46Z] <aelspire> I would dive into zig without this rust in linux kernel
[2022-12-07T10:26:44Z] <aelspire> basically in near future if You compiled our own kernel both C and rust toolchain will be already installed so its there and available to play with it
[2022-12-07T10:26:52Z] <aelspire> this is main selling point for me
[2022-12-07T10:26:58Z] <aelspire> line POSIX shell
[2022-12-07T10:27:03Z] <aelspire> like*
[2022-12-07T10:27:49Z] <aelspire> but still I'm not sure what I like, and there is Hare too
[2022-12-07T10:28:38Z] <aelspire> but without generics its bound to have houndreds of incompatible workarounds around lack of generics
[2022-12-07T10:29:46Z] <aelspire> I'm low level guy who like to write toy programs on bare metal (STM32Fx) so Go is noGo (pun intended) for me
[2022-12-07T10:34:58Z] <aelspire> what I like in rust actually is *very* strong type system, You can via traits allow or disallow to make simple copy of struct if it contains pointer to somewhere which need to be guarded, disallow movin struct if it is referenced from somewhere, disallow to move data from thread to thread
[2022-12-07T10:35:05Z] <aelspire> it makes sense, actually
[2022-12-07T10:35:15Z] <aelspire> but sometimes is pain in a**
[2022-12-07T10:50:14Z] <aelspire> > "I would like to use a more minimal setup, like a webkit browser like surf, vimb or something of the sort. buut those are less ideal tbh": and thats my thoughts, but web is totally fucked so sane web browser is already impossible and lost battle
[2022-12-07T10:51:05Z] <aelspire> I've tried to use qutebrowser but somebody there said that compiling chromium takes 8h so webengine from Qt will probably take similar time
[2022-12-07T10:51:24Z] <aelspire> and firefox even with rust is not that bad
[2022-12-07T10:51:47Z] <aelspire> and it is actually functional browser with good ads blocker
[2022-12-07T10:58:48Z] <sad_plan> never tried qutebrowser, but I know distrotube uses it, and it seems to be usable, to a certain degree anyway. never built qt at all, so cant speak for buildtimes though.
[2022-12-07T10:59:10Z] <sad_plan> I dont dislike firefox, I actually like firefox, but its massive.. 
[2022-12-07T11:06:16Z] <aelspire> sad_plan: every web browser is bound to be massive…
[2022-12-07T11:06:47Z] <aelspire> they added everything… have You read drew devault blog?
[2022-12-07T11:07:14Z] <aelspire> https://drewdevault.com/2020/03/18/Reckless-limitless-scope.html
[2022-12-07T11:07:21Z] <aelspire> thats my thoughts
[2022-12-07T11:08:20Z] <aelspire> I liked qutebrowser a lot
[2022-12-07T11:08:27Z] <sad_plan> I know the web has some *requirements*, which will evedentually make browsers bigger, sure, but they dont need to be that massive though..
[2022-12-07T11:08:55Z] <sad_plan> Ive visited a couple of times, but not really read much, no
[2022-12-07T11:09:20Z] <aelspire> I've heard about dillo browser and that looked not bad
[2022-12-07T11:09:30Z] <sad_plan> it was..
[2022-12-07T11:09:37Z] <sad_plan> I tried it some time ago, and it was horrible.
[2022-12-07T11:09:45Z] <sad_plan> couldnt even access lots of sites for some reason
[2022-12-07T11:10:02Z] <aelspire> but with all that online banking and goverment stuff I'm not sure if I can use stripped-down browser
[2022-12-07T11:11:14Z] <aelspire> so web is already lost it will grow and grow untill it makes everything else obsolete
[2022-12-07T11:11:47Z] <aelspire> at some point it will be easier to add kernel to web browser than all required by web API to kernel
[2022-12-07T11:13:55Z] <sad_plan> yeah, the shift for making everything an app drop offline methods have its drawbacks indeed. I dont really like where things are going, but what can one do
[2022-12-07T11:14:20Z] <sad_plan> > "I conclude that it is impossible to build a new web browser. The complexity of the web is obscene. The creation of a new web browser would be comparable in effort to the Apollo program or the Manhattan project." yup
[2022-12-07T11:14:57Z] <aelspire> nothing really but for simple blogs there are alternatives, but still only thing for few interested nerds
[2022-12-07T11:15:17Z] <aelspire> web is hard requirement for today computing…
[2022-12-07T11:17:11Z] <sad_plan> yeah more or less. you can live with a dumbphone, but youll have a fair amount of hoops to jump though to get around on all kinds of things
[2022-12-07T11:20:07Z] <aelspire> yeah, and I have pragmatic soul so doing hard stuff which brings You nothing (I count having fun as something) is no go for me. I'm a cyclist who constantly are getting lost somewhere faw away from phone so I thing I would be already dead without GPS
[2022-12-07T11:21:55Z] <aelspire> I falled from the rock once because track ended with cliff
[2022-12-07T11:23:15Z] <aelspire> but it was not 90° so I slided from it instead of free fall so I'm still alive
[2022-12-07T11:23:54Z] <aelspire> but now I'm always checking where path go on OSM before
[2022-12-07T11:24:32Z] <sad_plan> well, its not rewarding at all if you do something that doesnt bring you anything at all. so I can relate to that.
[2022-12-07T11:24:43Z] <sad_plan> gotta pay attention to where you go though :p
[2022-12-07T11:29:22Z] <aelspire> yeah, so dumbphone is no go today for me
[2022-12-07T11:30:22Z] <sad_plan> its not for everyone. I mean, it has alot of drawbacks that most people just isnt comfortable with. and I get that. a smartphone is a great tool to have in ones disposal. giving up that doesnt make sense for most
[2022-12-07T11:31:04Z] <aelspire> as there is no up-to-date paper maps here anymore
[2022-12-07T11:32:23Z] <aelspire> I had installed LineageOS on my phone before but now I have new one which still have guarantee
[2022-12-07T11:32:24Z] <sad_plan> how out of date could they be anyway? I get that some cities change rather rapidly, but on the nature part, most stuff stay the same for decades
[2022-12-07T11:32:44Z] <aelspire> smartphone without all that preinstalled crapware is not that bad actually
[2022-12-07T11:32:54Z] <sad_plan> rooting and switching OS shouldnt breat the guarantee though
[2022-12-07T11:33:09Z] <sad_plan> I run pixel 4a with graphene, and yeah, its great to avoid all that crapware..
[2022-12-07T11:33:19Z] <aelspire> forest pathes go out-of-date pretty quickly  here
[2022-12-07T11:34:07Z] <aelspire> they are making new pathes for logging, so taking next turn right is not always valid options
[2022-12-07T11:34:07Z] <sad_plan> how? is someone ruining tha paths, or is the city expanding really quickly?
[2022-12-07T11:34:35Z] <aelspire> and sometimes less used pathes is going missing as trees now grows on it
[2022-12-07T11:35:15Z] <sad_plan> I see
[2022-12-07T11:35:27Z] <aelspire> I think rooting and changing OS is invalidating guarentee here
[2022-12-07T11:35:31Z] <aelspire> I'll check it
[2022-12-07T11:35:52Z] <sad_plan> its worth checking anyway, if one likes to fiddle with the phone
[2022-12-07T11:36:19Z] <sad_plan> I had a oneplus 6 before, and I couldnt resist changing OS all the time. now I just stick with graphene instead, as its way better..
[2022-12-07T11:36:27Z] <aelspire> I count spending weekend on decraping my phone as fun
[2022-12-07T11:36:47Z] <sad_plan> it is fun
[2022-12-07T11:36:48Z] <aelspire> but spending year on trying to fix sending SMS as time lost
[2022-12-07T11:37:13Z] <sad_plan> thats a pain. gotta have basic functionality atleast
[2022-12-07T11:37:51Z] <sad_plan> being able to recieve texts and calls is rather detriental if you ask me :p
[2022-12-07T11:37:57Z] <aelspire> yup
[2022-12-07T11:39:06Z] <aelspire> I had broken crap tablet once and managed to compile kernel for it and install it on the HW
[2022-12-07T11:39:19Z] <aelspire> but that was actually not easy at all
[2022-12-07T11:39:41Z] <aelspire> anyone tried to use postmarketOS?
[2022-12-07T11:40:06Z] <sad_plan> sounds complicated :p
[2022-12-07T11:40:20Z] <sad_plan> not me, but Ive been eying it for some time
[2022-12-07T11:40:30Z] <aelspire> yes, me too
[2022-12-07T11:41:04Z] <aelspire> if basic functionality works, and there is way to run GPS on it it could be fun idea
[2022-12-07T11:41:39Z] <aelspire> but none of my devices are supported…
[2022-12-07T11:42:39Z] <sad_plan> I belive it does, on some of the more developed ports of it. the pinephone is iirc one of them. oneplus 6 was too. and several others
[2022-12-07T11:42:39Z] <aelspire> I was thinking about fairphone before but iPhone level price scared me off
[2022-12-07T11:43:00Z] <aelspire> and it could run postmarketOS so I did another mistake…
[2022-12-07T11:43:22Z] <sad_plan> ditto. fairphone is really nice, but its expencive. I also like to have aux on my phone
[2022-12-07T11:43:36Z] <sad_plan> pinephone isnt that badly priced though
[2022-12-07T11:43:45Z] <sad_plan> 250$ or something
[2022-12-07T11:44:05Z] <aelspire> I've heard that it will suport only Manjaro in future
[2022-12-07T11:44:16Z] <aelspire> but I didn't researched it
[2022-12-07T11:44:28Z] <aelspire> so don't quote me or take it as granted
[2022-12-07T11:44:53Z] <sad_plan> I doubt that. pine64 is all about the community stuff. theyre more or less reliant on it
[2022-12-07T11:47:42Z] <aelspire> https://www.pine64.org/2021/02/02/the-end-of-community-editions/
[2022-12-07T11:50:12Z] <sad_plan> yeah, the *default OS* was mentioned there.
[2022-12-07T11:50:39Z] <sad_plan> that does however not lock users into any OS. users are still free to switch if they want
[2022-12-07T11:50:54Z] <aelspire> ah, ok
[2022-12-07T11:51:02Z] <aelspire> as I said I didn't researched it
[2022-12-07T11:51:34Z] <aelspire> today smartphones are designed to last 5 years max
[2022-12-07T11:51:54Z] <aelspire> I've managed to use my last one for 7-8
[2022-12-07T11:52:05Z] <sad_plan> neither did I, but Ive been reading some of their blogposts, as Ive been interested in the pinehpone for some time, aswell as other projects of theirs. but Im not sure what to use it for tbh :p
[2022-12-07T11:52:18Z] <aelspire> but any longer is streaching it…
[2022-12-07T11:52:35Z] <sad_plan> yeah, smartphones has a short lifespan, but it is turning though. atleast for some. pixel phones are getting longer vendor support, making their lifespan longer
[2022-12-07T11:52:36Z] <aelspire> so price of fairphone scared me off
[2022-12-07T11:53:09Z] <aelspire> but pinephone looks interesting if there is no problem with support for other distros
[2022-12-07T11:53:20Z] <sad_plan> if you look at it from another angle, it might not be as bad. say if the phone is supposed to live 5 years, and its 500$, its only 100$ a year
[2022-12-07T11:53:40Z] <sad_plan> the pinephones OS's is probably abit hit or miss. 
[2022-12-07T11:53:57Z] <sad_plan> atleast it has been. havent looked into it for a while now, so things might be better now than last year 
[2022-12-07T11:54:26Z] <aelspire> yeah, so I'm currently betting on installing some dacrapwared android after guarantee period
[2022-12-07T11:54:38Z] <aelspire> it the most painless method for fairly open phone
[2022-12-07T11:55:14Z] <aelspire> I had good impression on it before
[2022-12-07T11:55:36Z] <aelspire> LineageOs worked nice for 5-6 years for me
[2022-12-07T11:55:50Z] <aelspire> after 2 years on official OS
[2022-12-07T11:58:53Z] <sad_plan> LOS is fine I suppose, but I dont partilarly like that their builds are all debug, and you can relock the bootloader. from a security standpoint that is. hence me using grahpene instead due to those things. among other stuff :p
[2022-12-07T12:00:55Z] <aelspire> graphene supports only pixels?
[2022-12-07T12:01:01Z] <sad_plan> yep
[2022-12-07T12:01:05Z] <aelspire> ehhh
[2022-12-07T12:01:31Z] <aelspire> I'm always trying to make the best possible decision and somehow always failing…
[2022-12-07T12:01:44Z] <sad_plan> there were talk of supporting one of the xiaomi (or w/e its called), but there were no interest from the community appearantly. calyx supports it though
[2022-12-07T12:01:57Z] <sad_plan> why?
[2022-12-07T12:02:10Z] <aelspire> I recently bought pretty standard samsung as I bet that after 2 years it should be very popular model
[2022-12-07T12:02:21Z] <aelspire> A33 5g
[2022-12-07T12:02:43Z] <aelspire> so I thought that there should be no problem with unofficial ROM
[2022-12-07T12:02:53Z] <aelspire> I should go with pixel…
[2022-12-07T12:03:37Z] <sad_plan> samsungs are the worst, they must hate their users using their phones more than a year at most. theyre just like apple. firmware support is so short its ridiculus really
[2022-12-07T12:03:43Z] <sad_plan> but yes, pixel is the way to go imo
[2022-12-07T12:03:55Z] <aelspire> and just before AMD released it super open source drivers I've bought PC with nVidia 970
[2022-12-07T12:05:13Z] <aelspire> but when I looked for which brand has the most models suported via unufficial ROMs the samsung looked good
[2022-12-07T12:05:38Z] <aelspire> I treat official ROM as necessary evil and temporary solution
[2022-12-07T12:05:56Z] <sad_plan> such a pity.
[2022-12-07T12:06:31Z] <sad_plan> look at xda for that kind of thing, or search up what people recommend at r/privacy or something
[2022-12-07T12:07:00Z] <sad_plan> you can also instead look at the ROM youre aiming for, look for the supported devices instead
[2022-12-07T12:07:18Z] <aelspire> I'm not sure what ROM I'm aiming for
[2022-12-07T12:07:34Z] <aelspire> LineageOS was popular when I made the switch
[2022-12-07T12:07:59Z] <sad_plan> divestOS is also an option btw. is a fork of LOS, but has alot of improvements over LOS
[2022-12-07T12:08:16Z] <sad_plan> https://divestos.org/
[2022-12-07T12:08:44Z] <aelspire> looks nice
[2022-12-07T12:09:00Z] <aelspire> at that point I'm considering ditching google from phone
[2022-12-07T12:09:07Z] <aelspire> I've no use for it anymore
[2022-12-07T12:09:34Z] <sad_plan> yeah, that would for me anyway, be my 3rd choice I suppse, if neither graphene nor calyx would be possible. unless I go for linux phones that is.
[2022-12-07T12:09:43Z] <aelspire> even with new phone a looked into official play store and found nothing interesting in it
[2022-12-07T12:09:53Z] <aelspire> all my important apps are from F-Droid
[2022-12-07T12:10:04Z] <sad_plan> ditto. dont even use playstore at all
[2022-12-07T12:12:16Z] <aelspire> there is choice today
[2022-12-07T12:12:21Z] <aelspire> good
[2022-12-07T12:12:40Z] <aelspire> few years before there was not much going
[2022-12-07T12:12:56Z] <aelspire> and now there are some serious android distros
[2022-12-07T12:12:59Z] <aelspire> I like it
[2022-12-07T12:16:26Z] <aelspire> ehh, decision making is hard process
[2022-12-07T12:17:30Z] <aelspire> I need to make my mind about rust and zig soon as programming in C or C++ is no longer fun for me
[2022-12-07T12:17:57Z] <aelspire> And holidays are going so there will be time to play with some fun project
[2022-12-07T12:19:09Z] <aelspire> And I've missed advent of code which looks pretty fun this year becouse constantly changing opinion about this languages
[2022-12-07T12:19:17Z] <aelspire> because*
[2022-12-07T12:39:04Z] <sad_plan> just make sure youre having fun. thats the important part :p
[2022-12-07T12:44:46Z] <aelspire> both are pretty fun and both have strong selling points from my point of view
[2022-12-07T12:45:29Z] <aelspire> I'm not the true suckless guy, and I accept bloat if the price is worth the things it brings so rust is not that bad for me
[2022-12-07T12:46:27Z] <aelspire> C is generally good but have a few flaws and C++ i generally bad but has a few good points
[2022-12-07T12:47:08Z] <aelspire> Zig and Hare tries to fix the flaws in C without destroying what is good
[2022-12-07T12:47:21Z] <aelspire> and Rust is its own thing
[2022-12-07T12:47:55Z] <aelspire> virtually similar to C++ but only for someone who doesn't know C++ good
[2022-12-07T16:00:33Z] <wael[m]>  im so eepy
[2022-12-07T16:10:17Z] <wael[m]> <aelspire> "Zig and Hare tries to fix the..." <- Hare looks really cool but its syntax looks really weird
[2022-12-07T16:11:12Z] <aelspire> well, syntax is just syntax after getting used to it it no longer matter
[2022-12-07T16:11:37Z] <aelspire> but reusing the same symbol for few things hinders readability
[2022-12-07T16:12:05Z] <aelspire> so as long as it doesn't look like regex its ok
[2022-12-07T16:13:48Z] <schillingklaus> the syntax of posix shell takes some time to get used to
[2022-12-07T16:14:20Z] <aelspire> yup, even after all this years I got things wrong sometimes
[2022-12-07T16:14:52Z] <aelspire> so I prefer fish for quick scripts, I usually can brute force my way around it without looking into manual
[2022-12-07T16:15:13Z] <aelspire> but use POSIX for everything I need to be sure it will work for longer time
[2022-12-07T16:15:27Z] <aelspire> as I'm not sure if I'll use fish tommorow or find something better
[2022-12-07T16:15:39Z] <aelspire> but POSIX shell will be there
[2022-12-07T16:16:55Z] <wael[m]> all i know is POSIX shell
[2022-12-07T16:17:07Z] <wael[m]> and something like hare is gonna be torture
[2022-12-07T16:18:18Z] <aelspire> after 3rd programming language everything starting to melt but learning n+1 is usually pretty quick
[2022-12-07T16:18:50Z] <aelspire> so sometimes I'm not sure if this what I'm writting is correct for posix shell or this is perl or awk
[2022-12-07T16:20:01Z] <aelspire> POSIX is problematic mainly because gotchas
[2022-12-07T16:20:21Z] <aelspire> You find nice flag for eg. in sed which solves your problem
[2022-12-07T16:20:27Z] <aelspire> and bang we got you
[2022-12-07T16:20:30Z] <aelspire> this is not POSIX
[2022-12-07T16:22:25Z] <aelspire> and finding what is POSIX and what is extension is hard sometimes
[2022-12-07T16:24:22Z] <schillingklaus> the worst are bashisms in #!/bin/sh files 
[2022-12-07T16:24:31Z] <aelspire> yup
[2022-12-07T16:24:56Z] <aelspire> but this is not the source of the problem but the symptom
[2022-12-07T16:25:17Z] <aelspire> almost nobody knows what is the POSIX and what is not
[2022-12-07T16:25:36Z] <aelspire> and finding it is hard and used to be much harder before shellcheck
[2022-12-07T16:27:40Z] <aelspire> dylan wrote cool posix bible and it is how I find him and KISS linux
[2022-12-07T19:57:35Z] <wael[m]> aelspire stop leaving