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Here's someone from Collabra doing a talk on it [0]. The idea is pretty straightforward, but actually will fill an important niche in the compatibility and eventual archival space.
On a higher level note, this shows that Valve is pretty committed to Linux as a concept. I feel that while a second wave of Steam Machines or Steam OS may be a while away, they're certainly making it much easier for gamers to Switch to Linux if they were so inclined.
[0]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrbWbBYAolo
IIRC, Steam still does not allow a developer to release a Linux-only title.
It may seem like a minor or fair limitation, but the ability to release Windows-only titles is a key component in maintaining the dominance of Windows as a gaming platform. Letting developers release on Linux first might go a long way to increasing adoption.
I can imagine releasing on Linux a few months early, dealing with the issues not caught during development, then launching on Windows.
They do, there already was one!
At the time it was called "Don't Be Patchman", apparently it changed its name and was ported to Windows and macOS.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/378410/Patchman_vs_Red_Ci...
That's excellent news.
I think most important to Valve is the _threat_ of Steam OS / Steam Machines rather than their actuality. Work such as this keeps up the threat and helps to keep Microsoft honest.
walking in to your late 1980's IBM sales meeting carrying a coffee-mug from a "Gang of Nine" company (NEC, HP, Compaq)....
personally i think we'd see much much much more console-ification of gaming, already, if Steam wasn't around, and to a lesser degree if Linux wasn't an option.
keeping game dev alive outside of the narrow walled gardens is very much a real challenge, a real problem, and Steam keeping a free & libre OS in a good state for gaming, & a flexible OS that they can be creative & take new risks & ventures on, unlike the fixed, closed operating systems, is more than a threat to keep the giant honest, it's a way to keep the ecosystem healthy, and a way to insure Valve can adapt & create & try new things. Linux, for Valve as for many others, is freedom, and it matters, here & now, & especially, ongoingly.
I also did a talk on Flatpak (part of what's being used under the covers for Pressure Vessel) and OSTree a while back if you want to know how the underlying tech works for it:
https://youtu.be/KFwBu-_k3rM?t=705
. Flatpak-specific things start at 26:51.
Awesome. Can we have containerized games at some point on Windows too? It’d be great to be able to keep a game and all its mods and extra dependencies together so I don’t have to worry about it breaking because I did a Windows Update.
Microsoft has demoed graphics accelerated container-ish things with Windows Sandbox, including running full speed games, although I don’t know if it’s open to developers.
Why are your games breaking on a Windows update?
At some point you are always going to need hardware interfaces and those are provided by the OS kernel. There's only so much you can achieve with containerisation.
> Why are your games breaking on a Windows update?
Windows 10 'N' Editions ship without a Media Feature Pack which some games rely on - i.e. Rockstar games (GTA V, Red Dead Redemption 2).
You can install the media feature pack by downloading it from microsoft, but I've noticed that when the OS has major updates (i.e. the "Creators update" from last fall), the media feature pack gets removed and you have to reinstall it.
It's better than it used to be - or at least, it's hidden away from me via Steam etc. - but I remember loads of games coming with installers for specific versions of DirectX, Visual C++ Redistributable libraries, different versions of .Net framework.
Not sure what the rationale behind it was compared to "just statically link it" but maybe in this case you couldn't just statically compile supporting microsoft libs into your game engine... And maybe there are/were legal reasons about why you couldn't stick the right versions of .dlls into your game's working directories...?
I made this mistake. I wasn't paying attention when I grabbed a windows keys from my msdn keys and didn't notice I picked N Pro instead of just Pro. I swear every time I have to fix issues related to it I'm going to swap versions and never do.
Who says we can't provide those interfaces to the container?
My view of it is less like containerization to provide complete isolation from the host/guest, but instead containerization to make the whole game a single 'entity'. Want to move the game from one system to another? Copy the container, that is where everything exists. No running around your filesystem looking for where the game decided to drop random files. Modded out the game and you break something? Just roll back the container.
This is how UWP works and it's a UX disaster.
> Why are your games breaking on a Windows update?
Because Microsoft gutted its in-house testing program in favor of moving fast and letting end users find the bugs.
A 3rd party containerized system could passthrough the interfaces that are known to work, massage those that need massaging, and catalog (with user consent) the ones that are unknown. Kind of like Microsoft's compatability modes, but managed by someone else, because Microsoft stopped caring, apparently.
They're already moving in that direction, though I don't know how mods interact with gamecore:
https://mspoweruser.com/gamecore-based-test-game-show-up-in-...
Isn't UWP games in the Windows Store what you are looking for?
For example, all Xbox Game Pass games are installed via a virtual read only filesystem (XVD Disk Driver). If you need to mod a game, there is an optional setting to unlock write access.
What game has ever broken due to Win update
A mod loader for Mirror’s Edge Catalyst broke in a Windows 10 update. That’s actually quite important to me, because I use a mod in order to fix a major problem (xp-gated ability upgrades) in what is otherwise one of my favorite games.
The mod loader’s author fixed it, but I wonder what the outcome would have been if this broke 15 years after the game’s release, instead of after just a few years.
Nier: Automata stopped working for me and a few older games I play lost controller support after the W10 Anniversary update.
The Creator's update, I believe, broke Fallout: New Vegas for a while -- I think some deprecated strings that identify GPUs changed, so a fallback renderer that doesn't work anymore was chosen.
Sadly, some of Valve’s more interesting Steam features don’t really work on Wayland. For example, you can control your desktop with a connected controller on X11, while controllers only work in-game and in Big Picture Mode on Wayland. Xbox One controllers also didn’t work on Wayland last time I checked. I wouldn’t be surprised if features like Remote Play didn’t work yet either because of Wayland protocols’ security model. Controller hotplugging is also a mess. Hopefully Valve gets to these issues in the future, but since Xwayland doesn’t even work with Nvidia GPU’s (more Nvidia’s fault than Wayland’s as I understand it), it could be a while. In any case, I’m quite thankful to Valve for making Linux viable for gaming, and the occasional game I buy now is always purchased through Steam to support their work.
Just stay with X. Wayland won't be production ready in a long time. Seriously it just came up here a few days ago, and just yesterday a friend of mine tried Linux on his desktop for the first time. He chose fedora for whatever reason, so ended up with gnome on Wayland. Since Steam was important to him and he's running an NVIDIA card, after an hour of struggling I just guided him to disable Wayland. Not only did it fix all Steam issues, but it also fixed a problem he apparently had where applications occasionally lost mouse clicks. Needles to say, his first impression of Linux wasn't too great, but once games worked properly he was happy. Let's see how long he can do without Windows. :)
>Wayland won't be production ready in a long time.
With NVIDIA it will never be production ready because NVIDIA doesn't support the Linux standards for Wayland and they don't allow developers to write/use good open drivers and all functionality. Even with X11 and their closed drivers it's a bad experience with glitches in the desktop, but at least the games run.
NVIDIA closed source drivers are supported by at least KWin, and IIRC GNOME, on Wayland. Furthermore they are working with the wlroots/sway maintainer to develop a new way for compositors and graphics card drivers to communicate effectively.
TL;DR never say never
I was talking about XWayland and the other problems Wayland devs have mentioned like Pipewire, poor performance, current and future issues FLOSS developers can't fix on their own without being able to patch and only NVIDIA can fix them. A big waste of time for that extra path (even if initially sent by them) that I wish they didn't had to maintain and triage bugs.
The experience with glitches and problems that the user above just describe to you and I see every day on social media. And the blame went to Wayland. I don't claim to know how it works deep down I can only comment about the smell and it's not pleasant.
They promised many things years ago and we are still in the same situation. I will be the first to congratulate NVIDIA if they fix this issue and change their practices. I'm sure they have legit grievances with Linux developers but their behavior is awful if you're a user or want the desktop to succeed.
As a gamer, I prefer investments into things that actually give me something, such as containers, Proton. Wayland compact at best is going to give me what I already can get with X, so frankly I'm not terribly interested. The fact that NVidia seems utterly uninterested in Wayland doesn't help either, because that remains the best way to get your games to run on Linux.
Remember when Valve said Linux was going to be the future of gaming [1], and even went so far as developing a Linux "console" [2]?
[1]
https://www.zdnet.com/article/valve-ceo-why-linux-is-the-fut...
[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_Machine_(hardware_platfo...
I think it was pretty savvy. Windows had just released Windows 8 and was introducing the Windows Store and the idea of having 'apps' on a desktop PC. Neither of these took off, probably for other reasons than Valve decrying them, but if they had then we'd be in the same situation with PC that Epic vs {Apple, Google} are in now.
Steam machines didn't take off because there were no games for it [1], the price point for the pre-builds was too high [2], nobody wanted to buy another (inferior) PC just for gaming [3] and the Steam Controller that was billed as part of the package was an experimental concept rather than being something people could pick up and play [4].
All of these kind of made sense at the time, but kind of felt like they had the signature Valve over-engineering. They have learned from this and have done the following:
For [1]: Proton
In 2018 in on fell swoop, Valve brought thousands of Windows games to Linux. Basically everything other than Multiplayer games with EAC or Battleeye work now (and EAC has a Linux version for native games).
From this point on I'd say that even though Linux still isn't 'the future of gaming', it's definitely a contemporary option. There are limitations, but it's viable.
For [2]: Scrap steam machines
It was a good effort, but I don't think Steam Machines will happen unless they can go toe to toe with the consoles. They don't need to, though, because people who want to run Linux are happy installing it on kit they already have.
For [3]: Steam Link
They released Steam link at the time, but now there isn't the competition of Steam Machine vs. Steam link - you can just run your Linux desktop and stream to your TV or to a raspberry pi.
For 4: Controller support with Steam Play
Steam play now has exceptional APIs which make it easy to play with any controller. I do think they need to release a Steam branded 'boring' xbox style controller, but I think they'd wait until another Steam OS version before then.
They've also invested massively in surrounding tech such as KWin, DXVK and a bunch of others. Linux may not be the 'future' of gaming, but it's definitely going to be a valuable safety net if Windows or the Consoles go rogue.
I've used Linux for my whole life and didn't play "big" games on it until this year, when I was recommended Proton. I've noticed no difference from playing games on a Windows desktop, which makes me excited about the future of Linux gaming.
I occasionally run into problems. The Outer World just came to Steam and it doesn't work in Proton yet.
> the Steam Controller that was billed as part of the package was an experimental concept rather than being something people could pick up and play
I'm not so sure about this. I have the Steam Controller and, while I'm aware it is an experiment, it's a completely functional controller and in many ways significantly better than any other I've ever used, especially for MMOs. The biggest problem, imo, is that people simply refused to give it a try because it's something new.
Fellow Steam Controller die-hard here. Nothing else really compares. One big issue was that the best features (like mouse-like joystick and gyro-assisted aim for FPS) took time to configure when most controller users want a controller to just work. But Valve’s community configs solved this extremely well. I can jump into just about any game and have an excellent controller config running out of the box.
The touchpads, gyro, and back paddles make it so much better than any other controller. It’s a shame they discontinued it. The more mainstream reviews of the controller by tech news sites and Linus Tech Tips didn’t quite grasp its potential, which is understandable. But there are some solid niche YouTubers like RambleTan and Critical Input that have made entire channels out of exploring its potential, and the subreddit is pretty good too.
I think they could still make some new iteration of Steam Machines work (although, they should probably come up with a different name to avoid the baggage of the first generation's failure).
They would need to follow some of the lessons of the other consoles though:
1. They need to have a standardized base implementation against which developers can test, and be confident enough to say systems that at least meet that base configuration will playable.
2. They need to manufacture or have someone manufacture a version that's as easy (or easier) to setup and use as game console.
> It was a good effort, but I don't think Steam Machines will happen unless they can go toe to toe with the consoles. They don't need to, though, because people who want to run Linux are happy installing it on kit they already have.
I think if Valve built out their game streaming tech (stream from your PC in the background or stream from our cloud), offered a gamepass-like subscription, and make proton work for 100% of their games and tested all of them for compatibility, they would have the best offering. From the sales, usability, features, and catalog they'd be able to be competitive. With what Microsoft is doing, in a few years steam will be in a very bad spot.
"Stream your Steam Library" would be a pretty solid value proposition.
You can do this (mostly) with nvidia's GeforceNow. It is surprisingly not laggy.
It's a really good experience but it's not on rails. Lots of setup needed with gforce, steam, etc and you need to have nvidia hardware.
I honestly wonder if the word "Linux" scares people away. Google seems like they try to avoid all mention of what Android really is.
Because every time you mention Linux in a 'casual' setting that one person who tried it 15 years ago will rise up and say how it will never be ready for desktop. How Gimp and LibreOffice might work for a while if you're an amateur, but why limit yourself?
This, along "Java is slow" infuriates me so much.
It's stupidly amazing how outdated views from 15 years ago poison people's opinions to this day.
A Java based OS that uses a mix of ISO C, ISO C++ and Android specific APIs for its native layer.
The fact that it uses the Linux kernel is completely irrelevant to userspace.
Yeah, people's reactions to the mention of gaming on Linux is absolutely incredible. Everyone has basically just cached the same thought from several years ago. With Proton, every game that doesn't actively attempt to not work on Linux works pretty much just fine.
And Chromebooks.
Web apps don't care about which kernel the browser runs on.
In what concerns Crostini, it even uses another Linux kernel running on top of a container.
The thing about the Future is, there's always more of it.
When we queried on why Valve are now putting more up in the open on GitLab, instead of the GitHub that was being used originally, Besset mentioned to us "The projects you see on GitHub are often mirrored from an internal repo. It's awkward and creates friction for community contributions. The projects on gitlab is where we will do our work in the open."
I was wondering about that as Proton is on Github. I feel that's a good evolution.
It looks like Pressure Vessel is a wrapper around flatpak or bubblewrap[0], whichever is found. It bundles a copy of bubblewrap if neither are found.
So it does mean that it's not really a container, but that's fine. No need to reinvent the wheel. It's the kernel providing most of the functionality for containerization anyways.
[0]
https://github.com/containers/bubblewrap
well, what makes a container then, if bubblewrap doesn't? Only the OCI-compliant packaging? That's very narrow.
I'm saying that bubblewrap is the container, not Pressure Vessel.
Direct link:
https://gitlab.steamos.cloud/steamrt/steam-runtime-tools/-/t...
Question: I've not tried steam on linux. Is it bad, usable or nice? Is the GPU support ok?
Quite usable. With proton many Windows games work out of the box with quite good performance. These days most of the issues are due to DRM and anticheat breaking games that oterwise would run perfectly.
I often stream from my steam running on my linux desktop to the steam box connected to my TV and that also work fine.
GPU support is really independent of steam, but these days both Nvidia and AMD have pretty good drivers.
It came a long way, it's very impressive what they managed to do in a short period of time. Not only Valve but the community in general even if they weren't directly involved with the gaming part.
Manage your expectations, I would treat it like a console, you won't be able to play 100% of "PC" games but you will have a very large selection of games including AAA. And in comparison by raw numbers Linux have many more games than regular consoles, not to mention all the emulators you can use.
Performance wise Source engine games run better than on Windows for me and a few Proton (Wine) games runs better too, but that's not the rule as there is a small penalty from the "translation" layers. Vulkan games run very well.
If you try to run all games even the ones that Valve didn't approved to run with Proton ("1-click in the UI and it just works") you will have to tinker and do nerd stuff like using different versions or compiling from source. Don't blame the platform if you go that route without proper knowledge and patience. Also in the same line of thinking don't try to use Wayland yet, specially if you have a NVIDIA card because there's no support from them, and I hope they do something about that but I wouldn't hold my breath.
I would say about 1/3 of my steam library works perfectly on linux. The remaining are not available.
I thought I had one game with a crash to desktop bug in linux but then I played it on windows and it turns out the crash has been faithfully reproduced.