______________________________________________________________________________________
Do I like this? No. Do I approve of this? No. But does it surprise me? Also no.
Apple has time and time again chosen to take the side of oppressive regimes (by banning apps in HK that help protesters, forcing Telegram to remove chat groups that help protesters in Belarus, etc).
It is to be expected. In all such cases, the protestors are on the right side of history by fighting oppressive/authoritarian regimes.
But Apple (like most corporations) only really cares about money at the end of the day. If they don't do stuff like this, it'll just lead to them being banned from operating in these countries. Then they won't be able to make money. It is what it is.
Long gone are the days in which Google refused to operate in China because it was asked to censor searches.
The only reason Google search doesn't operate in China today is because leads to massive backlash each time they try to go back on that decision. But if Google's current management had been in place back then, they would have never made that stand in the first place.
Ethical public companies simply cannot exist in this world.
At what point is Apple's policy on these matters equivalent to IBM's involvement in 1940s Germany?
2017. But I'm just picking when Human Rights Watch reported on the internment camps. I'm sure I could be convinced that the date is earlier.
I don't understand why everyone thinks they would boldly oppose Nazis like an action star hero, but when millions are imprisoned in concentration camps in China they're kind of like "meh."
> but when millions are imprisoned in concentration camps in China they're kind of like "meh."
They just cry "RUSSIAN DISINFORMATION" and move on with their life thinking they saved the world. Modern day virtue signaling is the cancer which our society needs to figure out how to get rid of.
That is really a stretch. Need a sense of proportion.
At that point, we should all first be protesting Microsoft Excel and Windows software, Ford Motors, all of our Wyoming coal producing mines, Boeing, and more, for providing products that much more directly enable China to do what it's doing, than someone's inability to write a word on a pencil.
I am also not surprise that when other company does this same thing the comments and votes/flags are much different.
"Reimagining Capitalism" by Rebecca Henderson is an eye-opening book that outlines very clearly defined steps that would force corporations to take more social responsibility.
Here's my take on the book:
Capitalism at its best works wonderfully, but the checks and balances that are needed for capitalism to work for the good of society are broken. Most countries across the world do not have a truly free press or even semi-functional democracy. We're hurtling towards a climate disaster, with no signs of slowing down, as well as facing massive global inequality.
Corporations are succeeding at present, but the single-minded focus on pleasing shareholders above all else is not sustainable and _will_ come back to hurt everyone, not least corporations. It's a classic case of the prisoner's dilemma - each corporation individually does better by ignoring societal damage, but if all of them do so, the whole system will eventually collapse - whether due to climate disaster, a collapse of buying power from impoverished masses, or a global pandemic.
Henderson argues that "only the relentless pressure of the free market can drive the kind of transformative innovation at scale [that we require]". The solution is to first fix democracy - get money out of politics, and fix the voting system. A representative government can agree on common goals and implement polices that harness the free market to work towards these agreed goals - eg. a carbon tax. Henderson also puts hope in "collective action" - corporations working together voluntarily, towards common stated goals. I'm a little sceptical of this last part.
Azeem Azhar (Exponential View) did a great interview with Henderson -
https://hbr.org/podcast/2020/06/reimagining-capitalism-for-a...
Thanks for sharing, will checkout the podcast.
Similar story: Back in 2001, Jonah Peretti requested the word "sweatshop" engraved on his Nike shoes. They refused the request, and it became a Thing.
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/nike-id-sweatshop-e-ma...
Peretti later went on to found BuzzFeed.
If you're looking to a giant corporation's products to be a channel for the expression of your moral position, you're looking in the wrong places.
Just the fact you want to buy their products speaks more than any 8 letters you can choose to engrave / "personalize" your dollars with.
Go work to do real things, change real things. Corporations swing with the wind, and just as soon as they would support what movement you have this month, they might abandon the next. Do something that sticks.
Slavoj Zizek makes a great point about this. He points out that starbucks donates some portion of the money you pay for coffee to alleviate poverty.
But you as a customer are buying expensive coffee as well freedom from guilt of buying expensive coffee while a large number of people in world are poor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P18UK5IMRDI
I don't know whether it's the same topic (will watch later) but there was the economist's observation a few years ago that when you pay $0.10 extra for organic/free trade coffee in your cup, only less than $0.01 goes to the actual coffee farmer and even the related supply chain labor. (calculating what the coffee serving price difference should be from the market price of free trade beans per pound vs. normal)
The rest of the 9c is just price discrimination of the coffee chain being able to see that you value the _idea_ of supporting organic coffee farming and are willing to pay that much more, even though it doesn't translate into anywhere close to that for the actual people.
Edit: you can check it yourself -- Fairtrade coffee reports to be sold at $1.80 per pound versus $1.40. A typical cup of coffee / shot espresso uses 15 grams. The cost difference is <$0.01.
(I don't know if this is still sold as an option, not a coffee drinker myself)
> If you're looking to a giant corporation's products to be a channel for the expression of your moral position, you're looking in the wrong places.
That seems to be precisely what half of SV is looking for.
While I agree with the first two paragraphs of your comment, it's rather naïve to think this:
> _Go work to do real things, change real things._
There's little that people outside HK can do, and those HK citizens who _can_ do something are already doing so by protesting, although it appears to (very unfortunately) be futile.
Right yes, lets totally absolve corporations by normalizing their behavior and instead call out individuals trying to exercise their freedom to write whatever they want on a product they are paying for.
Anyone is totally free to carve/emboss/sharpie/sew those words into the pencil/shoes/car that they buy. No one is stopping you. And I think that would be more of a personal statement than having it drawn by a company's factory laser on an automated production line.
You want the company to say the words along with you and agree with your position.
But you've already lost. It's a bit like falling into the trap of brand advertising that screams, "Be yourself"... by buying one of our products.
I'll just say again, if you put your faith into a corporation reflecting your moral convictions, you will often be disappointed.
> You want the company to say the words along with you and agree with your position
I disagree.
When I engrave "I love you" on a watch, as a present for a loved one, I don't want the engraver to agree with me at all. The message isn't from them. It's from me. I couldn't care less if they agree or disagree with the sentiment.
There's a message I want to convey and a person (or company) - the engraver - who is offering to engrave the message for me as a service.
> if you put your faith into a corporation reflecting your moral convictions
I think the trap we're falling into here is assuming that if Apple were to engrave the "liberate" message, that they would somehow be endorsing the message. That's madness. Nobody would expect them to be endorsing my "I love you" message for my wife if they engraved that, so why do we when it's a politialy charged message?
As for why people get Apple to engrave the message rather than "carve/emboss/sharpie/sew" the message themselves; it's neater and looks good. I doubt most people spending hundreds of dollars want that "I sharpied this myself" look.
It's hard not to be cynical about Apple's supposed commitment to social justice issues in America when they do stuff like this abroad. Apple under Tim Cook may be succeeding financially, but their hypocrisy is becoming too much to ignore. At least Jobs had the decency to _try_ and be apolitical.
Greedy corp is afraid of losing totalitarian regime's market, news at 11.
s/market/factories
Both market (huge) AND factories
It is simple: Don't vote for Apple with your money. Especially iPhones. But wait they are tinkering with search engine project. They will support freedom of speech, or not.
Interesting times we live in, very interesting.:)
_Don't vote for Apple with your money._
That's a good approach to showing a company you don't approve of what they're doing, but in the case of tech who should people use instead? _Every_ tech company is involved with China on some level (if not directly then their suppliers are); they all do things that support the Chinese government.
I agree that Apple are wrong here, but I don't see how buying from another company that's also wrong solves anything.
Yes I agree, this is nearly impossible but let me try to think for a moment. I am long time Apple user, and can remember a time, when this company checked all my professional boxes. Clean industrial design, user friendly interface, high quality pro software (Final Cut Studio, Soundtrack Pro, Motion, Shake, etc), UNIX based, perfect ergonomic features and port connectivity. Long hardware life (I use in my home music studio Apple Cinema 30" and it still is working perfectly) may be best industrial design for display ever. So, did I find resemblance in Apple of today?
No. Today Apple is money printing machine with ultra polished marketing promotion and clever cost cutting strategy in manufacturing processes. Today Apple is focused on keeping the profit top spot. Yes I still use Mac OS, but more and more lean towards Linux based desktop. I see a future for creative people away from dichotomy of Mac/Windows boxes. There are enough new software (DaVinci Resolve, Blender) what is missing is someone like Affinity to port their apps to Linux and we will have a good start.
May be if we buy Linux phones as early adopters, things will change somewhat, I don't know. What I know is that we as professionals must take action and stop closing our eyes, I personally share with everybody my point of view. We are good at influencing our clients, friends. In the old Apple era, I have turned a lot of people from Windows to Mac.
Not everyone, this is likely going to be my new phone:
I was also thinking of an iPhone 12, I don't think I'll bother now.
Thanks for the link. It looks good.
My friend had one, really liked it. It can just be expensive to get replacement parts shipped international if not in a country where they sell directly.
>_Don't vote for Apple with your money. Especially iPhones._
And buy what? Google phones? Made in China as well. Plus all the shady stuff they do globally, much worse than Apple. Huawei, Xiaomi and co would probably be no-gos too. Samsung? Is SK is much better? Had been a dictatorship for most post WWII period, and transitioned to a kinda democracy around 2000. And they use Google's OS anyway.
Companies make hardware. Buy them or not. Don't look to Apple or Google for politics.
US companies should also play nice by the rules of the country their are in, -- not what the US thinks they should do based on their plans/thinking for the country. It's not their business to interfere with local politics pro or against.
https://www.ifixit.com/News/45921/is-this-the-end-of-the-rep...
It's a miniaturized computer with a laptop class CPU, GPS, gyroscope, LIDAR, 4 cameras, screen, speakers, mobile broadband chip, promiximity sensors, RAM, and SSD -- which is also waterproof and fits in a pocket.
Makes sense that at some point such devices are not repairable any more.
no, read the link before posting, it's about seemingly a replaceable parts being tied to each devices and not being transferable
>_read the link before posting_
(a) Please don't assume.
(b) The keyword is "seemingly". Just because they are seemingly replaceable doesn't mean it would be a good idea to replace them with third party repairs in a highly minutarized device.
The items being tied is a red herring. Changing the camera for example has security implications (consider that the camera module is e.g. forced to light a led when on, so that you're not recorded without knowing, and that's a hardware feature tied to the secure enclave. A changed camera module can also have implications for face id. And whose to guarantee that the third party "repaired" iPhone is still waterproof to the rating Apple provides?
SK transitioned to a kinda democracy around 2000? As a Korean I am deeply offended. Korea got to where it is now with hard work from the previous generations, not from forcing ethnic minorities into forced labour.
If you don't know what you are talking about, don't talk about it. Please don't spread fake information to justify your misguided opinions.
>_SK transitioned to a kinda democracy around 2000? As a Korean I am deeply offended_
Perhaps, but it's still true.
This was followed by 13 months of political instability as South Korea was led by a weak and ineffectual government. This instability was broken by the May 16, 1961, coup led by General Park Chung-hee. As president, Park oversaw a period of rapid export-led economic growth enforced by political repression. Park was heavily criticized as a ruthless military dictator, who in 1972 extended his rule by creating a new constitution, which gave the president sweeping (almost dictatorial) powers and permitted him to run for an unlimited number of six-year terms.
The years after Park's assassination were marked again by political turmoil, as the previously suppressed opposition leaders all campaigned to run for president in the sudden political void. In 1979, General Chun Doo-hwan led the Coup d'état of December Twelfth. Following the Coup d'état, Chun Doo-hwan planned to rise to power through several measures. On May 17, Chun Doo-hwan forced the Cabinet to expand martial law to the whole nation, which had previously not applied to the island of Jejudo. The expanded martial law closed universities, banned political activities, and further curtailed the press.
Chun and his government held South Korea under a despotic rule until 1987, when a Seoul National University student, Park Jong-chul, was tortured to death.[128] On June 10, the Catholic Priests Association for Justice revealed the incident, igniting the June Democracy Movement around the country.
South Korea was formally invited to become a member of the United Nations in 1991. The transition of Korea from autocracy to modern democracy was marked in 1997 by the election of Kim Dae-jung, who was sworn in as the eighth president of South Korea, on February 25, 1998. His election was significant given that he had in earlier years been a political prisoner sentenced to death (later commuted to exile).
That's just Wikipedia, mind you, not some bizarro source.
The citizens fought for democracy, but SK was not exactly a paragon of democracy until well into the late 20th century. And even then it has been problematic:
Putting aside the decades of brutal dictatorship that ended with Chun Doo-hwan stepping down in 1988, every South Korean presidency since has been rocked by corruption scandals. Roh Tae-woo collected $10 million per month in slush funds while in office, Kim Young-sam stunned the nation with his pay-for-play Hanbo scandal, Roh Moo-hyun jumped off a cliff while under investigation for bribery, Lee Myung-bak is serving 15 years for corruption, Park Geun-hye is serving 24 years and then there's President Moon Jae-in.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidvolodzko/2019/02/25/is-sou...
Do all engravement requests have to be approved by several tiers of heirachy before getting made?
They probably have a list of phrases that will be sent for manual review.
If the engraving happens in China then most likely yes.
What about that great 1984 commercial?
What about?
(a) It was an ad, not a political platform.
(b) Even as an ad, the message was "Give average users the ability to use computers, don't just have them for technical people and businesses" which Apple still abides to this day. It wasn't about the same message as 1984 the book.
Are you using an iPhone or Mac? If yes, why don't you start with yourself. Apple exists because consumers love and buy their products - irrespective of their policy decisions.
and if no?
Companies need to be held accountable, regardless of who buys their stuff. Stop blaming common people for the crimes of megacorps.
Apple is doing well because a lot of users continue to buy their products. And if people themselves don't find their policies egregious then so be it. One can't blame Apple for choosing the path it did.
And this is not the first time Apple is kowtowing to Chinese government. See the Apple cloud deal in China which needs to store data in Tencent cloud or how Apple blocked an app in HK letting users know where the police is. Nothing has changed in now Apple is operating here.
I'm forced to use a Mac at work. What should I do? look for another job?
Yes.
Who we choose to work for and where we spend our money are the two primary powers every individual wields.
> Who we choose to work for [is one of the] primary powers every individual wields.
Unfortunately, that's just not true. The vast mahority of people on lower income cannot aford to be choosy with who they work for. A great many higher earning software developers (HN's usual market) are in the same position.
I agree that encouraging the few people who can afford the luxury of being choosy to vote with their feet is a good thing, but don't assume everyone has that same "primary power".
> A great many higher earning software developers (HN's usual market) are in the same position
Once you start taking family commitments, salary requirements, type of company etc into consideration, the pool of available jobs is certainly reduced.
If there is a positive from Covid, I'd hope is the acceptance of full remote work as an option or at most token office presence (e.g. Once every other week)
FWIW, my question about job switching was very much tongue in cheek as by now I'm not that bothered but the first few weeks were a massive productivity sink, more so than the usual when one starts in a new company with a different stack, etc...
Some people would actually do that.
Victimhood need not apply here. On balance, your employer decides the benefits of using a Mac outweighs the cons. On balance, you decide the benefits of staying on the job outweighs the cons of using a Mac. The world is not perfect and is not meant to be. You however do get to weigh your choices, make your tradeoffs and act on it.
If you feel strongly about it, you would do something about it. Least of it being working with your company on looking for alternatives to Macs.
Interestingly the suggestion among the refuseniks is:
Just use your own device, nobody will be the wiser
You can appreciate the engineering and craft of a product while not agreeing with the policy decisions of the company that created it. Those two things are not mutually exclusive.
You can symbolically decide to boycott the company and not use it's products, but in the case of apple and their systems, this does a lot more damage to the individual than the company.
(tongue in cheek)
and have you _seen_ the alternatives?!?!?!
Some Apple users are so locked in into the Apple ecosystem that they completely ignore how excellent products exist outside of such ecosystem to the degree of justifying every shit the company makes because "there are no decent alternatives". It is by far the most successful lock-in strategy I have ever seen in tech. It goes beyond the technicalities: it has created a religion in itself.
(if you only knew how many corrections I had to make to these couple of sentences I have just written to correct the mistakes introduced by my "excellent" MacBook Pro keyboard)
This is not a troll response, I'm really curious to see if there's something better, because I want the best that money can buy -
- 16 Inch Screen
- 8 Core i9 (16 Threads)
- 4TB SSD Storage
- Screen resolution is 4096x2560 @ 60Hz
I write code that uses all 16 cores and is able to search data at 2.5 Gb /s reading from the SSD, which is as far as I can tell close to the hardware limits.
Who's got a laptop that has this much CPU, RAM and fast SSD Storage with the same or greater screen resolution? If it exists, I really wanna know.
I had a windows gaming laptop about a year ago which had close to this specs, but I used it for a month and it started slowing down because it was overheating, and then eventually it just started getting insanely hot and then powering off (Its was one of those "Predator" gaming laptops), it couldn't even handle 2 months of heavy coding abuse from me (and it was super heavy physically too), it was very disappointing.
The ThinkPad lineup for some balling entries that match the raw power of a Macbook easily. For less money too.
That said, the Macbook screen is brilliant and others don't always compare.
the real thing that puts me off leaving the Apple world: MacOS. I've tried to go back to WIndows and the experience was dreadful for software engineering.
If this, and other decisions by Apple _for_ China makes you upset or angry, do email the CEO Tim Cook (his email address is easily found online) and let him know your displeasure and that you’re not going to buy things from the company as much as you used to. I don’t think he reads HN or any other forum regularly.
Quote back to him his own statements in interviews where he has emphasized that Apple supports human rights. Also quote other areas where Apple has spoken _for_ the people (like “Dreamers”, for example). Ask why Apple is being so hypocritical.
Well written correspondence can get through, and can make a difference down the line.
Surely it will go straight to spam? He can't possibly be manually reviewing emails sent to his public email address. And if he does have some intern reviewing them, they aren't going to forward your criticism.
The 21st century will be the Chinese century
Feels like it is already? Look at the state of the "union", bunch of people screaming at each other over mask wearing and conspiracy theories, what a sad state of affairs.
I am not sure if this is sarcasm or not, however their way of doing things certainly is on the winning side. Even the USA is trying to ban apps and articles for national security reasons. You can't start directly by making companies afraid of engraving something questionable on a pencil, you start with baby steps. Some time later everyone becomes a patriot or a traitor, then you can have companies self censoring engravings on pencils so they don't get the traitor label.
Well, I guess Apple really do Think Different.
At least different than the rest of the civilized world, but that's not too surprising either given their history.
Because the rest of the civilized world (including all other US businesses) doesn't do business like crazy with China?
Or doesn't do business with the US, a bigger global bully, with active wars and occupations, etc?
Let's not lose focus of what really matters here: money.
That's the only thing Tim Cook cares about. Products are just a means to further that end. That's why the products have gone to the shitter and all the cool people left.
This is the chilling effect of our close economic ties to oppressive regimes. I dont know if we can expect Apple to stand up to China. I think our government needs to do more to set the parameters of our economic interactions with them.
I'm guessing the engraving happens in China. No way the CCP lets that happen. It's like ordering a set of "free hk" t-shirts from a Chinese printer.
I was confused by the title, at first I thought they refused to engrave the word “liberate”.
isn't...that what happened? at least, that's part of the phrase:
...The customer, alias Mr. Chan, told Apple Daily that he got a call from an Apple employee on Wednesday saying that their “higher-ups didn’t approve” of his proposed inscription, “Liberate HKERS.”
I meant that based on the title I thought they refused to engrave the word “liberate”.
As in: somebody wanted to engrave just the word "liberate" and Apple refused.
"The higher-ups" are screening engravement messages? Call me naive but that sounds like nonsense. At least, it SHOULD be nonsense.
If true they must be terrified of upsetting the CCP.
My guess is the engraving happens in China, so not so surprising that the CCP keeps a tight grip on the wording lest its citizens see it.
I’ve always wondered how much human intervention they add to the engraving.
“cunt” can’t even be submitted, but “c u n t” could be last time I tried. Didn’t order it, just had a laugh. One could also go with Scunthorpe and add some Tipex.
(Yes, I’m twelve and think that’s funny)
On a related note: a few months ago I read an article about how Disney(?) tried to sensor “bad words” in one of their Habbo-Hotel like apps for kids. Starting with blacklists, moving to whitelists, then trying a scratch-like building blocks. People would start to arrange sofas to talk to each other. You can’t really stop it.
Can’t find it anymore though.
Some next level censorship by local Apple employees, probably don't want to get caught in crosshairs after it blows up
I was thinking of buying a new iPad, I'm pretty turned off now.
Disgusted really.
here's to the crazy ones
Company refuses to do what's bad for business, news at 10.
I thought Apple was "socially aware"?
Steve Jobs was never the idealist like Wozniak - sure he wanted to build great consumer products but wanted to nickle and dime you for it.
Well they did remove the charger to help the environment and indirectly help society...
IDGAFF. DIY with a laser engraver.
Better yet, buy from a different vendor who isn't in China's pocket.
Why is this news ???.
Misleading headline. He was trying to engrave "LIBERATE HKERS".
Where is it trying to mislead to?
That means, it is natural that Apple refused "LIBERATE HKERS" and "Liberate" is not? I can't see the difference.
"Liberate" doesn't bother China who Apple is heavily reliant on?
If the title were "Apple refuses to engrave ‘liberate’ on a customer’s Apple Pencil, and this is why", I might be confused and would say it's misleading, or a clickbait.
However, coupled with the context of the HK protest, the point of the article is obvious. It's not misleading title IMO.
Everyone got it, what difference does that make regarding the censorship by local employees?
"Liberate" is different from "Liberate HKers". Please make the topic headline more accurate. And it is obvious why Apple will not allow this in China/HK.
It was not misleading for me. My immediate thought was: click through to find out what that 'liberate slogan' is. N=1
Obvious how?
If I should ever buy an Apple Pencil, I will order a "Liberate HKers" inscription for moral support. But then, I don't live in Chinese jurisdiction.
Corporations won't support us in the development of civil society, that's our own job. They will abide by the rules of whoever is in power in their respective regions of operation. Their purpose is to make money and if that requires that they engage in slavery, torture, or mass murder, they will do just that. Consult the history books for examples.