💾 Archived View for bbs.geminispace.org › u › eph › 13416 captured on 2024-08-31 at 13:38:48. Gemini links have been rewritten to link to archived content
⬅️ Previous capture (2024-08-25)
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Re: "Antenna deplatforming/blockage/censorship"
While I’m uncomfortable with censorship, librehacker/Your Word is annoyingly evangelical. Too often his posts are unpleasant.
Jan 04 · 8 months ago
🚀 anti_social · 2024-01-04 at 11:51:
Oh look, it's the magic of social media casting it's spell over us once again! Hope you enjoy it more this time around than the 1,000,000 times this happened before. It's going to be so much better in Gemtext than HTML. And this time, somehow, through sheer determination and emotional intelligence, we'll finally figure out who's right and who's wrong. I'm excited because I know finally I'll be the executioner. I'll be the one in charge of deplatforming. And everyone will fear me, finally. Hopefully.
🚀 Minko_Ikana · 2024-01-04 at 12:16:
Politics aside, because I am intelligent enough to know both sides of that conflict are being played for the fool. But being new to Gemini I do have a couple very serious questions about Geminispace universally as a general protocol.
First I absolutely agree with Skyjake that all personal servers should and do have the right to set their own rules. Just as it is on the regular internet. In this case Antenna is provided as a gemini service by a private party.
But that is not how it is presented on the first page of Antenna. It gives the impression it is a neutral general universal service for all of geminispace. I had to go to the "What is this" page to find the disclaimer and that it is not and has personal proprietary rules for using it.
Second, When I went to librehacker's capsule I received a warning for an untrusted certificate. Is it truly untrusted? Or was this warning applied by moderation to deter geminispace users across the board from going there?
The second issue is of the upmost importance. If this warning was applied by a biased third party then it is a method of censorship that trancends just personal servers, it is selective capsule censorship across geminispace as a whole.
I am extremely concerned about this issue because a couple geminispace users told me a few days ago that speech in the whole geminispace protocol should be controlled and censored. If this is the case, then much of what is advertised about the gemini protocol is misrepresentation.
I would like to and have been promoting Gemini and LaGrange as a very good option from the WWW. But if it is universally controlled with bias, and free speech is not respected within the protocol as a whole then I really need to know now so I can quit wasting my time and effort to try and support it.
If one cannot build their own capsule and server and exercise free speech if they want to then why leave the WWW and come use Gemini? I was under the impression gemini was a way to escape censorship?
🚀 Minko_Ikana · 2024-01-04 at 12:56:
This perspective confuses me:
"Decentralised network working as intended."
🚀 corscada · 2024-01-04 at 13:01:
@Minko_Ikana
the first point is a bit subjective, I could go to the front page of twitter and say the same thing about the fact the TOS is hidden on a different page. IMO if you are submitting to antenna for the first time you would need to read the "What is this" page first, maybe the disclaimer should be at the top of that page though.
for the second point, Lagrange is telling me that the domain doesn't match the cert. this works the same as SSL certs on HTTPS.
Gemini offers more in terms of more privacy by default and simplicity than censorship resistance.
🚀 corscada · 2024-01-04 at 13:10:
@Minko_Ikana
everyone hosting their own capsule(server) is decentralisation. self-hosting your content is the only way to guarantee your voice is not controlled in any way. using services you don't have control of like this BBS or antenna is a form of centralisation on this network the same way using twitter or reddit is on the web.
the fact the capsule(server) in question can not be censored is proof that this works and kinda takes away from the original claim of censorship (IMO this is more like de-platforming).
🚀 Minko_Ikana · 2024-01-04 at 14:09:
@corscada. The "Decentralised network working as intended." perspective confused me. As a domain owner I have been into site development as a hobby for over ten years now and it has always been my understanding that decentralisation has been historically pushed as an option to be free of "one sized fits all rules" and the content control and censorship of centralisation.
🚀 corscada · 2024-01-04 at 14:52:
@Minko_Ikana
I mean it exactly how you understand it. the point about decentralisation working as librehackers server can't be censored is a separate but related point to the fact that a link to their server was removed from a privately run platform.
🐐 satch · 2024-01-04 at 15:34:
This conversation is silly and should be about the merits of Antenna under ew0k's management. Nothing to do with the Gemini protocol at large.
Gemini as a protocol is completely agnostic when it comes to free speech or content of any kind. It is no different from the web in this respect. Content moderation happens on a completely different level.
🐝 Addison · 2024-01-04 at 17:43:
Freeze peach guy gets upset when someone doesn't host his screed; posts a second screed
🐝 november [...] · 2024-01-04 at 17:54:
Hey Minko, bumpsh, I wanna post an unhinged rant about some political topic on your capsules. Where do I go to submit my post?
I can do this, right? Otherwise you'd be censoring me.
👤 nikhotmsk · 2024-01-05 at 02:18:
The leading link domain is wrong. Here is the fixed one: gemini://gem.librehacker.com/gemlog/starlog/20240103-0.gmi (upd: fixed)
— gem.librehacker.com/gemlog/starlog/20240103-0.gmi
🐝 november [...] · 2024-01-05 at 03:34:
It is literally not censorship for people to refrain from linking your gemlog on their own aggregator.
🐝 november [...] · 2024-01-05 at 04:18:
Seriously, it's not even hard, but I suspect it's above the capabilities of a group that thinks *a browser's incorrect certificate warning* is censorship.
🚀 n3m3516 · 2024-01-05 at 05:32:
If I let anybody publish stuff and I delete a concrete post of yours to ban you afterwards due to spammin some random bullshit or anything of the like I'm keeping the site healthy. If it's about your opinions not your writing that's censoring. It's not that hard.
Being a private capsule only makes it legit, it doesn't make it not censorship.
Also, I don't think anybody said anything about the certificate thingy being censorship by itself.
🚀 bumpsh [OP] · 2024-01-05 at 05:41:
Well, this shit show of a comment section just enligtens me on how stupid many of you are, some calling me a right winger some , blaber on "my side" that is brainless and stupid. ahh like I said left,right,sideways but many stupid (with very few exceptions who shall be unamed)
edit:
change "but always" to "but many" good catch
@sugar
and also I do not share that view???? I never said I agree, why do people pull out of thier ass that im some right wing genocidle crap bag, to those that think that or that I am political in any way I suggest you actually read, then proccess what my words mean in the post.
❤️ sugar · 2024-01-05 at 06:11:
Sounds like many people are calmly saying that they don't want that kind of thing in their spaces. Calling them all stupid is a childish response. If you want to broadcast your's and others' genocidal views, go make your own aggregators that allow that.
But we see it over and over again: conservative spaces don't take off the way other spaces do. They try to take over better spaces because it's the only way they can gain an audience. And then they throw fits when their hateful views get them removed, they try to change other places to fit them. Their spaces don't stand on their own merits. Because all they have is hate and bigotry and regression.
Deplatforming works. Keep it up.
☕️ Morgan [mod] · 2024-01-05 at 06:43:
I'll give my take since everyone else has :)
Regarding the controvsersial author. After the initial shock I found I quite enjoyed reading posts on Gemini that I totally disagreed with. I was a bit puzzled about why someone would post so strongly against the grain here, but it seemed harmless since nobody really seemed to engage.
Regarding Antenna, I would personally prefer if only spam is filtered, but it's a great service either way, thanks ew0k.
Regarding censorship, that word has been overused to the point it has little meaning left, could we maybe skip that bit?
☕️ Morgan [mod] · 2024-01-05 at 06:45:
By the way, I moderate this space--lucky me.
There have been a few insults, but surprisingly few given the content matter, so good work so far I guess?
Let's try to keep it civil please.
🚀 bumpsh [OP] · 2024-01-05 at 09:34:
@bubstance
"
I hear the kinds of bad takes and similarly overblown reactions from the OP are popular on that one site. You know the one; it's overrun with trolls and bootlickers.
"
the only take I have is that I am at worst opposed to antenna for this,NOT that I agree with the links contents. But from what I can tell (book cover read it admit) you are not one to reason with.
or your trolling, in which case you got me a lil, nice.
🚀 bumpsh [OP] · 2024-01-05 at 09:50:
@morgan
Thank for being chill, I land basically same with you.
other than that I have no clue about the war so I have not got any opinions on it.
🚀 Minko_Ikana · 2024-01-05 at 10:07:
Interesting... This thread is pretty much self explanatory... It appears to be a feeding frenzy of bias from the Geminispace community.
🚀 bumpsh [OP] · 2024-01-05 at 10:33:
@Minko_Ikana, yea thats pretty much it.
with some exceptions like yourself.
🚀 corscada · 2024-01-05 at 11:25:
@Minko_Ikana let him without bias cast the first comment
🚀 Minko_Ikana · 2024-01-05 at 14:58:
@corscada, please show me where I attacked someone here with bias... You are going to find I have been repectful and supportive of everyone here since coming to Gemini.
🚀 n3m3516 · 2024-01-05 at 15:59:
I don't like blowing people up, I won't help that guy blow people up. Hell, I would even help prevent all the explosions he allegedly wants to do.
Banning him for writing some harmless text is too much though, IMO.
🐉 gyaradong · 2024-01-05 at 16:46:
As others have said, you keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means. Censorship happens by state (or, sure, capitalist) actors, not by a grandma baking communal cookies. Antenna is more a case of "my house my rules". ewok is no Elon Musk in this analogy.
🚀 n3m3516 · 2024-01-05 at 18:41:
I didn't even mention censorship.
Also, we all agree Antenna is free to do this, but we're discussing about the "should ban", more than the "should be able to ban".
🚀 bumpsh [OP] · 2024-01-05 at 19:53:
@bubstance This is to discuss antenna blocking a post because of its (bad or not) politics not the specific politics in the post, I have said many times I know nothing of whats going on in there, I may or may not agree with librehacker, the contents of librehackers post on the war, I said almost none of what im am accused of in the thread, I am sorry that you *feel* that I think those things.
🚀 bumpsh [OP] · 2024-01-05 at 19:55:
@zaphod
finally someone that understands that the point of my post was not left or right politics.
🖥️ admin · 2024-01-05 at 20:00:
@zaphod Your comment was deleted because of personal insults.
🚀 bumpsh [OP] · 2024-01-05 at 20:11:
@zaphod, the admins aint perfect but they arent to bad either, at least they let people call me a genocidle weirdo conservitive right!!?!?!?
jokes aside I think the mods are doing good. . . great but not perfect.
and we cant expect them to be perfect.
🚀 bumpsh [OP] · 2024-01-05 at 20:54:
@bubstance, I am sorry that you think/feel this way but I dont know what to do about it so Its just the way it is.
but if you ignore off topic stuff, the main takaways seem to be:
you have the right to take anyones content off of your own platform open or closed platform but many would like if you didnt take <content X> down so that diversification of opinion stays at top level.
🚀 bumpsh [OP] · 2024-01-05 at 20:54:
option #2 seems to be:
deplatforming works keep it up. for safety.
disclaimer #1
I dont have much more to add into number 2, feel free to reply with extra details and I will try to add them in.
disclaimer #2
I surely have missed some takes. sorry!
🚀 corscada · 2024-01-05 at 21:35:
@Minko_Ikana everyone has bias that's how people work, to expect no bias in a discussion thread where people share their opinions is silly, hence my reference to Jesus saying let he who is without sin cast the first stone, which is impossible in terms of Christian doctrine.
@n3m3516 text as a form of communication is no more or less harmful than any other form of communication but to suggest that text which calls for genocide is harmless is to be laughed at when considering history.
🚀 corscada · 2024-01-05 at 21:47:
@bumpsh not having a clue about the situation does not give you a pass whenever you are advocating for someone to keep the privilege of being able to keep a link in a privately run social space.
I'll give you some info on it for free, it's not a war its an illegal occupation and a genocide (both these are have legal definitions that Israel meets and are therefore facts).
30,000 civilians have been killed in 2 months, which is over 3 times the casualty rate in 2 years of war in Ukraine.
there is evidence that press, health workers and children have been targeted.
white phosphorus has been used on civilian population.
intentional starving of civilians (collective punishment)
continued....
🚀 corscada · 2024-01-05 at 21:51:
.....
all of the above and more are war crimes.
in fact thanks to Israeli ingenuity we may get 5 new war crimes added to the books.
it also doesn't just start from 2 months ago, even before October Israel had 10,000 Palestinian children hostage in its prisons and is the only country to sentence children in military courts.
supporting Israel is like supporting apartheid south Africa or Rhodesia. I would also hope that people expressing views that imply for example "white Europeans have the right to rule over black Africans and treat them as sub human or second class citizens'" or are calling for the death of any group of people are banned in a similar fashion.
🐉 gyaradong · 2024-01-06 at 01:04:
I feel like the discussion ought to be "hey ewok's antenna instance seems to be pretty canonical. he removed some posts. would the community want to use a different instance?" I guess some would, so why not set one up???
🚀 bumpsh [OP] · 2024-01-06 at 02:11:
@corscada thanks for some context, but I must say either way I am not advocating to specifically one person I would have said all of this regaurdless of their posts content ( exceptions inculde CSAM,spam) heck I personally might go as far to allow advocaters of those exceptions, as long as that content is not actually present.
but I have not thought that last part through enough
regaurding
@gyaradong:
I actually might make a fork with proper user registration that has the new user describe the scope of their content. so then its either a simple yes/no or putting tags next to the content to warn/label what I think it is before a user clicks it.
but I am short on time these days so we will see.
🚀 bumpsh [OP] · 2024-01-06 at 04:22:
@bubstance
you convinently left out
"but I have not thought that last part through enough"
funny how that works huh?
not only that but in the actual quoted text literally right before the left out sentance. it say 'personally *might*' that does not mean I like that content or want it around all that says is that I strongly believe not matter how bad an opinion is that you should be able to put it next to the best.
🖥️ admin · 2024-01-06 at 06:34:
Let's try to keep this at least somewhat civil and on topic.
☕️ Morgan [mod] · 2024-01-06 at 08:55:
I think this discussion has run its course, not seeing any new value being added. Please think hard before posting anything else. Thanks!
— gem.librehacker.com/gemlog/starlog/20240103-0.gmi
Antenna deplatforming/blockage/censorship — disclaimer: I am not up to date on news at all I (9 times out of 10) believe that both sides are dumb, left right or sideways it does not matter to me. post: If this is true, wtf? we are not exactly toddlers we can handle some text based opinions, spam sure block it, but really a hot take,MiSiNfOrMaTiOn? I am not opposed to a warning tag...