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Re: "Biden vs. Trump: we lose either way"
@norayr: I dont claim to understand the details of the 44-day War, but I don't think the West was that successful there. Obviously a complicated situation with a long history. In the US they tell us that Russia was more of a third party, a 'peacekeeping force'.
Feb 22 · 6 months ago
🐙 norayr · 2024-02-23 at 19:18:
plus you can try to translate this text from russian
— https://graniru.org/Politics/Russia/m.288177.html
and i didn't comment on some things you have said: if usa brings missiles to armenia (big if) that won't matter to russia, because usa has missiles in turkey. whatever can reach from armenia, can reach from turkey.
secondly, neither nato nor ukraine was to start a military aggression towards russia. there is no justification for starting a war. do you understand, real war. people are getting killed. they were living fine.
🐙 norayr · 2024-02-23 at 19:20:
americans talk about american interventions. that's very good. but do russians talk about their interventions?
— Foreign interventions by the Soviet Union
— Foreign interventions by Russia
that doesn't include anything related to armenia though russia is very much involved.
🐙 norayr · 2024-02-23 at 19:23:
In the US they tell us that Russia was more of a third party, a 'peacekeeping force'.
yeah, exactly, you did right by keeping it in the quotes.
in fact the people of nagorno karabakh became hostages. the "peacekeeping force" was keeping (first together with azeri civilians, fake activits) 100.000 people in the blockade. they had nothing to eat for 9 months.
that to pressure us to give them the corridor.
then the "peacekeeping force" allowed ethnic cleansing of armenians. all 100.000 came to armenia. they haven't been killed, most of them, az allowed them to come here. well, because they didn't slauther 100.000 people but they got what they wanted.
🐐 satch · 2024-02-23 at 19:38:
@norayr hi
i'll just chime in by saying that while Ukraine never wanted the war with Russia, the US seems to have wanted it. Otherwise why did they work to stop the peace deals early on?
🐐 satch · 2024-02-23 at 19:40:
I think perhaps the US's goal was to weaken Russia economically and diplomatically through a proxy war in Ukraine which would end with total defeat for Russia and maybe a change of government. This is obviously not working out the way they intended.
🐙 norayr · 2024-02-23 at 20:01:
well, usa didn't have any hope in ukraine surviving russia's attack. they were telling the president to evacuate, since they believed russia would invade ukraine in 2 days.
later, when ukraine survived first attack, ukraine didn't want the "piece deal" on russian terms, on aggressor's terms.
because those terms mean accept the annexation of crimea and annexation of the eastern ukraine.
it is fair to not want to accept the unlawful annexation.
it is fair to support those who do not accept military annexation, and appeal to the international law.
i understand that usa looks like villain in your eyes and i envy usa society, since russia doesn't look envy in most of the russian citizen's eyes.
🐙 norayr · 2024-02-23 at 20:02:
by the fact, it is russia which started the military aggression. usa did not start it. it is russia which invades cities, eliminates those from the face of the earth.
it is they who are guilty and it is they who are aggressor.
hating usa, or antarctida won't change these facts.
hitler also was saying that "they were forced to invade". people who kill other people say that "they had no other way".
but we punish them, we do not justify them.
🐙 norayr · 2024-02-23 at 20:07:
I think perhaps the US's goal was to weaken Russia economically and diplomatically through a proxy war in Ukraine which would end with total defeat for Russia and maybe a change of government. This is obviously not working out the way they intended.
well, then why the russia was manipulated by that?
here someone named A. he manipulates someone named B to kill someone named C. who killed C? who had the weapon and who did the job?
putin has deep pain for the "russian empire". he said it publicly. he said that the ussr was the empire, and that it is a "catastrophe" that it doesn't exist now.
he wants to rebuild it. he has this "eurasian union" they forced us to join.
🐙 norayr · 2024-02-23 at 20:10:
literally forced in 1 hour!
because armenia is small and weak. and armenian president said publicly - it took 1 hour!
since he was threatened by the war. eventually we got both the war and the "union".
it was our luck that russia wasn't strong enough to enforce all the agenda, the same political state back then, in 2013.
putin also called yanukovich to the meeting, ukraine's president. he was from eastern ukraine, but he was elected with the program to get closer to european union.
putin threatened him and he refused to sign the agreement a couple of months before the agreement for which ukraine(like us) was working for years had to be signed.
the people were very much unhappy by that.
🐙 norayr · 2024-02-23 at 20:13:
they went to rallies, the government even shot people on the streets.
eventually russia anenxed crimea, and the president of ukraine ran away to russia.
if you want your brother to be in good relations with you, you don't abuse him, you are not toxic to him, and you respect him.
putin says that there is no "brother", he said in the recent interview to that former fox guy, that he doesn't agree that ukraine has a right to be a state. he told this 2.5 hours long story to justify his invasion. he really believes that his mission is to invade the nation because he thinks the people of ukraine doesn't deserve having a state.
🐙 norayr · 2024-02-23 at 20:15:
he also hats our leader because we elected him.
we got rid of corrupted government, which was supported by russia. russia has not much to suggest, and when they have, they don't want to.
as we know again from public interviwes of politicians who tried to negotiate with putin, they say - he doesn't negotiate. he says and we have to obey, otherwise he punishes.
so it was a "tradition" that the former republic leader (both ukraine and armenia) had to be presented to putin, then only "elected".
armenian people didn't tolerate that. they wanted real elections. we have different society than russia. armenian police (small society) this time didn't support the regime with much brutality.
🐙 norayr · 2024-02-23 at 20:18:
so we got who we wanted.
very similar to like in case with georgia, we got war as revenge.
our new leader did everything to demonstrate how loyal he is to putin. and that his only aim is to eliminate corruption inside the country.
but then putin said - those are my friends. and he didn't allow that.
our leader even sent troops to syria, which usa didn't like at all, just to prove to putin how loyal he is. but that didn't help. the leader of former republic shouldn't come by elections, without being approved by putin.
he has his rules. he has his vision. they said "they (armenia) have no choice, they have to join "common state" with russia.
🐙 norayr · 2024-02-23 at 20:19:
eventually. what putis says, is that "peter has stolen, so can i".
if you're good, you don't say that.
you don't do what bad people do.
you do what good people do. if usa have stolen, you don't have to do the same. and you don't have to kill innocent kids in ukraine.
have you seen the photos? don't those raise emotions? have you seen burned down buildings?
🚀 stack [OP] · 2024-02-23 at 20:45:
@satch yes! That's what they do. Walk away from negotiations and start over. Look a decades of this with Iran. There is no money in peace, and small wars help elections
🐐 satch · 2024-02-23 at 21:42:
@norayr i think you might be making assumptions about my beliefs which aren't quite right. I really do fault Putin and Russia for the war first and foremost. They are the aggressors, they are morally responsible for the majority of the suffering the war has caused, and they should be condemned by every nation in the world for this war.
I would *much* rather Ukraine win then Russia.
Just because the USA has actively made the situation worse and helped to create it in the first place doesn't mean that Russia gets off the hook for invading a sovereign nation.
🐙 norayr · 2024-02-23 at 22:37:
i am sorry.
i find myself sensitive to the extent i might be better off such discussions.
i just felt that some people might not be informed well enough.
but enough justifying myself. i feel i owe an apology to everyone who received notifications.
🐐 satch · 2024-02-23 at 22:44:
@norayr it's ok, don't worry :) i appreciate hearing your perspective
🚀 stack [OP] · 2024-02-24 at 00:49:
@norayr: I don think anyone disagrees with you!
🚀 stack [OP] · 2024-02-24 at 00:59:
This post was about the possible outcomes of US presidential election, especially regarding the US foreign policy (as in starting wars in Ukraine, Middle East and China).
Nothing in this post or followups justifies Putin!
Biden vs. Trump: we lose either way — [preformatted] This is pretty pathetic. I hate it when Trump is right, and he is right about Biden trying to start a war to get re-elected. Biden, or whoever the puppet master behind him is, has been working hard to stir up trouble. I really hope it does not go full out. Trump is a total criminal scumbag, but to be fair, Biden has not changed anything for the better. I think Trump is less likely to blow us all up -- he is in it to pardon himself and walk...