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Thank you all for the patient and informative discussions regarding the 'can of worms' I may have opened re: forms... I think the responses below do address many, if not all, of the concerns I initially had when proposing a form facility. I think it's great that Gemini strives to 'do more with less' and I can see some of these suggestions are very clever. I'm going to try them out in an app of my own now :) It just takes a bit of a different approach from HTML. -Russ On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 at 10:08, <gemini-request at lists.orbitalfox.eu> wrote: > Send Gemini mailing list submissions to > gemini at lists.orbitalfox.eu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/listinfo/gemini > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > gemini-request at lists.orbitalfox.eu > > You can reach the person managing the list at > gemini-owner at lists.orbitalfox.eu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Gemini digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Viability of *apps* on Gemini? (tayevnge) > 2. Re: Viability of *apps* on Gemini? [TECH] (Johann Galle) > 3. Re: Viability of *apps* on Gemini? (nothien at uber.space) > 4. Re: Proposal: Simple structured form specification > (Katarina Eriksson) > 5. Re: Viability of *apps* on Gemini? (Gary Johnson) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 13:53:01 +0100 > From: tayevnge <tayevnge at posteo.net> > To: gemini at lists.orbitalfox.eu > Subject: Viability of *apps* on Gemini? > Message-ID: <4e78e5a2-5e55-9bb8-7a4b-19a0f39b5756 at posteo.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Hello, > > Please help me understand viability of creating simple form-based apps > like message boards, job offer boards, etc on Gemini. > > I am aware there are no multi-input forms but there seem to be an > "input" feature. > > Does Gemini support or intends to support meaningful user input and > interactivity? > > Is it realistic to build real world "text applications"? > > How about multi-line user input, file upload etc? > > Any example apps? > > TIA! > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 15:12:28 +0100 > From: Johann Galle <johann at qwertqwefsday.eu> > To: tayevnge <tayevnge at posteo.net> > Cc: Gemini application layer protocol <gemini at lists.orbitalfox.eu> > Subject: Re: Viability of *apps* on Gemini? [TECH] > Message-ID: <6bd3c32e-7fe5-dbfb-a631-3ea7cf726570 at qwertqwefsday.eu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" > > On 2021-07-28T13:53+01:00, tayevnge wrote: > > Hello, > > Hello! > > > Please help me understand viability of creating simple form-based apps > > like message boards, job offer boards, etc on Gemini. > > > > I am aware there are no multi-input forms but there seem to be an > > "input" feature. > > In theory you could do it, have a look at a recent thread on forms in the > mailing list archives: > <gemini://gemi.dev/gemini-mailing-list/messages/004921.gmi> > > > Does Gemini support or intends to support meaningful user input and > > interactivity? > > I don't think so, beyond what is already present with the input and secret > input > status codes, as well as just "being on a page". > > > Is it realistic to build real world "text applications"? > > Probably not, why not use another protocol? (again, see the linked thread) > > > How about multi-line user input, file upload etc? > > Multiline input is theoretically possible by percent encoding a linefeed. > > For file upload, maybe have a look at one of the adaptations mentioned in > the > linked thread (Dioscuri, Titan, and Inimeg)? > > > Any example apps? > > Depends on what you would call an app. You can have a look at some pieces > published on the mailing list: > Tic Tac Toe (seems to be inoperable at the moment [1]) > ?? ?<gemini://tictactoe.lanterne.chilliet.eu> > ?<gemini://gemi.dev/gemini-mailing-list/messages/003712.gmi> > Interactive Fiction > ?? ?<gemini://gemif.fedi.farm> > ?<gemini://gemi.dev/gemini-mailing-list/messages/003725.gmi> > > Johann > > [1] It gives me a header of "30 ---------", which does not make sense. > --- > You can verify the digital signature on this email with the public key > available through web key discovery. Try e.g. `gpg --locate-keys`... > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: OpenPGP_signature > Type: application/pgp-signature > Size: 840 bytes > Desc: OpenPGP digital signature > URL: < > https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/attachments/20210128/765937b6 /attachment-0001.sig > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 16:59:30 +0100 > From: nothien at uber.space > To: tayevnge <tayevnge at posteo.net> > Cc: gemini at lists.orbitalfox.eu > Subject: Re: Viability of *apps* on Gemini? > Message-ID: <3KQVHF2U6KVHO.26X0EWRTACLYD at nothien.uber.space> > > tayevnge <tayevnge at posteo.net> wrote: > > Hello, > Hi! > > > Please help me understand viability of creating simple form-based apps > > like message boards, job offer boards, etc on Gemini. > > I'm going to quickly cover what I think are the best solutions to these > two applications. > > Message boards *can* be done on Gemini. Short-form message boards, > somewhat like Twitter, with short message sizes, can definitely be done. > For example, you may have a 'post' page where the user provides > plain-text input as the post to be made, and the server redirects them > to the newly created post. Gemini provides and strongly recommends TLS > client certificates for authentication, so I suggest that the server > distributes a cert to the user when they sign up. But you can't do > things like notifications. > > Long-form message boards which require different input formats, file and > image uploads, notifications, etc. are much, much better to implement as > mailing lists. All you need on top of a standard mailing list server is > a way to neatly present that information (i.e. to view topics/mails), > and that can be on Gemini easily. > > A job offer board could be implemented as a Gemini server which lists > jobs and an e-mail address to receive e-mails from potential employees. > I don't think that giving users actual accounts and verifying that > they're human and stuff is a good idea - leave that up to the hiring > companies. It would be pretty neat to have a free gemsite (?) listing > job offers from FOSS companies. > > ~aravk | ~nothien > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 18:00:25 +0100 > From: Katarina Eriksson <gmym at coopdot.com> > To: "A protocol that is slightly more complex than gopher, but > significantly simpler than HTTP" <gemini at lists.orbitalfox.eu> > Subject: Re: Proposal: Simple structured form specification > Message-ID: > < > CAObwWNjSyJmOBVMtjHfuUzTRTGfmJg5q-xsbqjPqzQzKr1mx_Q at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > When this topic have come up in the past, we have concluded that Gemini can > support forms with serial input fields, as opposed to the parallel input > fields people are used to from web forms. > > One way to do this is to send status 10 until all the fields are satisfied, > like a CLI. Another way is to have a page with links pointing to one field > at a time. > > Johann Galle <johann at qwertqwefsday.eu> wrote: > > > The basic idea is the following: Each form field is presented on a > > separate "page" and the server keeps track of where the client is in the > > form. Ideally the URL (URI/IRI?) contains all the data necessary, thus > > "saving" the data on the client so it might be continued at a later date. > > If the amount of data expected is larger than would fit in the URL, > server > > side state with client certificates would be an alternative. > > > > I haven't seen this approach yet, seems just as valid as the other ones. > > Now to the different types of input fields. I assume the form's base is > > gemini://example.com/form/ which might display some information about > the > > form and the first input field. > > > > On 27.01.2021 18:37, me at edaha.org wrote among other things: > > > # binary > > > Binary options are best known as checkboxes on the web. They're simple > > on/off toggles. How they are displayed is up to the client > > > > A check box can be simply implemented with two links for yes and no like > > this for example: > > ``` > > Does Gemini need forms? > > => 0/ No, it does not. > > => 1/ Yes, it does. > > ``` > > > > Asking a question like this is not a good example for showing off > checkboxes but another way is to send this: > ``` > 10 Does Gemini need forms? [yes/no] > ``` > ...and repeat until the user supply a valid answer. > > Multiple choice checkboxes can be combined into one input: > ``` > 10 My server supports: [c: CGI, v: virtual host, s: sessions] > ``` > ...and the user can answer "sv" or "cs" or "v" or whatever other valid > combination. > > [...] > > > # choice > > > [...] > This refers to a single choice among a list of things. > > > <= choice Which of these protocols are we using? > > > <= choice gemini > > > <= choice gopher > > > <= choice HTTP > > > > This could be implemented just like a checkbox, just with more options. > > Coincidentally the syntax is very similar to the one proposed. > > ``` > > Which of these protocols are we using? > > => gemini/ gemini > > => gopher/ gopher > > => http/ HTTP > > ``` > > > > This would be: > ``` > 10 Which of these protocols are we using? [gemini/gopher/http] > ``` > ...in that same example. Though, I do like the links better. > > > # submit > > > Finally, submit. This one's easy: > > > > ... because it is not necessary. The server will just show you the result > > or take the respective action after the last form field is filled. Maybe > a > > final checkbox of "Are you sure" would be nice to let the user know that > > this will result in some action. > > > > Or just "Confirm sending this information" > > -- > Katarina > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/attachments/20210128/272c292c /attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 13:07:49 -0500 > From: Gary Johnson <lambdatronic at disroot.org> > To: tayevnge <tayevnge at posteo.net> > Cc: gemini at lists.orbitalfox.eu > Subject: Re: Viability of *apps* on Gemini? > Message-ID: <87k0rx9bpm.fsf at disroot.org> > Content-Type: text/plain > > tayevnge <tayevnge at posteo.net> writes: > > Please help me understand viability of creating simple form-based apps > > like message boards, job offer boards, etc on Gemini. > > > > I am aware there are no multi-input forms but there seem to be an > > "input" feature. > > > > Does Gemini support or intends to support meaningful user input and > > interactivity? > > > > Is it realistic to build real world "text applications"? > > > > How about multi-line user input, file upload etc? > > > > Any example apps? > > I described the current state of affairs around building dynamic > applications with Gemini and Gemtext in a recent message thread called > "The Tragedy of &". You can see it in the mailing list archives here: > > gemini://gemi.dev/gemini-mailing-list/messages/004947.gmi > > A great (and quite popular) Gemini app is Astrobotany, which you can > find here: > > gemini://astrobotany.mozz.us/ > > Have fun exploring Geminispace. The culture here celebrates doing more > with less. It's pretty uncommon to get new features added to the > protocol or markup language, so this drives people to get creative in > their thinking about how to mix-and-match protocols to build the things > they want or to find new solutions to old problems using Gemini's modest > toolkit. > > Happy hacking! > Gary > > -- > GPG Key ID: 7BC158ED > Use `gpg --search-keys lambdatronic' to find me > Protect yourself from surveillance: https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org > ======================================================================= > () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail > /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments > > Why is HTML email a security nightmare? See https://useplaintext.email/ > > Please avoid sending me MS-Office attachments. > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > Gemini mailing list > Gemini at lists.orbitalfox.eu > https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/listinfo/gemini > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Gemini Digest, Vol 18, Issue 58 > ************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/attachments/20210128/3bbd 4bcf/attachment-0001.htm>
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