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1 ‎[1] **And the men of pitch [*benei kufera*],** i.e., sailors, **are accustomed to** paying **rent at the time of pulling** and paying for **damage at the time of breakage.** The Gemara asks: **Is that to say** that **this matter depends on custom?** Is there no *halakha* with regard to this issue? The Gemara answers: **Because the *baraita* taught this,** it is an acceptable **custom** and therefore permitted.
‎[2] § **Rav Anan says** that **Shmuel says:** It is **permitted to lend with interest money** belonging **to orphans.** Since the orphans are minors and exempt from mitzvot, the prohibition against taking interest does not apply to them. **Rav Naḥman said to him: Because they are orphans we may feed them prohibited** items? In harsher language, he added: **Orphans that consume that which is not theirs will follow their deceased** parent to the graveyard. It cannot be that this was Shmuel’s intention. Therefore, Rav Naḥman **said to** Rav Anan: **Say to me now, what was the actual incident?** What exactly did you hear Shmuel say?
‎[3] Rav Anan **said to him:** There was **a certain kettle that** belonged to **the children of Mar Ukva,** who were minor orphans, and this kettle **was in the house of Mar Shmuel,** who would rent it out on behalf of the orphans. Mar Shmuel **would weigh it and** then **give it out,** and when the renter returned it Mar Shmuel would **weigh it and take it back,** and **he would take a rental fee** for use of the kettle **and would** also **take** payment **for depreciation** of the kettle due to the reduction in the weight of the metal. In general, the *halakha* is that **if** he takes **a rental** fee, he **should not** take payment for **depreciation, and if he takes** payment **for depreciation,** this means the kettle was a loan, and therefore he **should not** take **a rental** fee, as by taking both, it is interest. Nevertheless, Mar Shmuel did so with the kettle belonging to Mar Ukva’s children, which means he rendered it permitted for the orphans to take interest.
‎[4] Rav Naḥman **said to him:** There is no proof from a case **like this, as even for bearded ones,** i.e., adults, it is **permitted to act in this** manner, **as** the owners **accept upon themselves the depreciation of the copper, as the more the copper is burned, the more the value of the pot is diminished.** Since this is so, the renters pay for the visible depreciation as measured by the reduction in the weight of the vessel, and therefore this arrangement is certainly permitted.
‎[5] **Rabba bar Sheila says** that **Rav Ḥisda says, and some say** that **Rabba bar Yosef bar Ḥama says** that **Rav Sheshet says:** It is **permitted to lend the money of orphans** to be invested in a business venture **that is close to profit and far from loss.** Since this is only a hint of interest (see 64b), the relevant prohibition is a matter of rabbinic law, and the Sages rendered it permitted in the case of minor orphans, in order that their inheritance be preserved for them.
‎[6] **The Sages taught:** If there is a joint venture in which the conditions for the investor are **close to profit and far from loss,** then the investor is **a wicked person,** as this is similar to a loan with interest. If the conditions for the investor are **close to loss and far from profit,** then he is **a pious person,** as he accepts additional restrictions upon himself in order to be absolutely sure he is not taking interest. If it is **close to this and to that** or **far from this and from that, this is** the **quality of every person** who acts in accordance with *halakha*.
‎[7] **Rabba said to Rav Yosef:** When we are entrusted with **this money** belonging **to orphans, what do we do with it?** What is the halakhically appropriate way to manage these funds on behalf of the orphans so that they do not squander or lose their inheritance? Rav Yosef **said to him: We set up** a special **court** that holds the money **for them, and we** instruct the court to **give** it to **them dinar by dinar,** according to their needs. Rabba **said to him: But** if the estate is managed in that manner, **the principal,** meaning the estate itself, **will be depleted,** and therefore the court will not be acting as suitable guardians for the orphans, as they will not be properly administering their estate.
‎[8] Rav Yosef **said to him: What does the Master do** in such a case? Rabba **said to him: We look** for **a man who has scraps of gold, and we purchase the gold from him and** then **we give** it back **to him** in a joint business venture with terms that are **close to profit and far from loss.** The Gemara explains what Rabba says: We specifically buy scraps of gold, **but** we do **not** buy **a specific item,** meaning a finished gold item, as **perhaps it is a deposit** in the possession of the one holding it **and the owner will come and provide distinguishing marks and take it,** and then the orphans will suffer a loss.
‎[9] **Rav Ashi said:** This **works out well if a man is found who has scraps of gold.** But **if no man is found who has scraps of gold,** shall **the money of the orphans be depleted?** There is a possibility that the extra precaution taken to avoid the appearance of interest may lead to a loss for the orphans. **Rather, Rav Ashi said: We look for a man whose properties are quiet,** meaning that there is no claim disputing his ownership of them, **and** who is a **trustworthy** individual **who listens** to and obeys **the laws of the Torah and is not subject to excommunication by the Sages,** meaning that he is known as one who obeys the court’s instructions willingly without having to be coerced, **and we give him** this money **in court** as a joint business venture with terms that are close to profit and far from loss, and in this way the orphans’ money can be invested in a safe and profitable manner.
Mishneh Torah, Creditor and Debtor
Version: William Davidson Edition - English
Source: https://korenpub.com/collections/the-noe-edition-koren-talmud-bavli-1
License: CC-BY-NC