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Gday If anyone still has a working XT to PIII with Win9x I would be amazed The IDE, RLL, ISA and ATX PSU's would all be past its shelf life Can we finally let 16 and 32bit finally die a peacefull death FFS , you can get an Raspi, 2nd hand optiplex or even a 2nd hand 775 2nd hand that could run Modern day 64bit (aliexpress sells those cheap xeon 775s) Maybe its time to invest in a new production machine and migrate away from that 15-20-25-30 year old computer FreeDOS is still being worked on https://www.freedos.org/ as is ReactOS https://reactos.org/ https://github.com/reactos/reactos I do have a softspot for old school CRT tube screens thou :-) -------- Side note:- Did you know that Telephone , DSL & Ethernet can all work via Barb Wire Gemini via Barb Wire, FAN networking (Farm Area Network) ______________ Regards charliebrownau charliebrownau@protonmail.com Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Tuesday, July 13th, 2021 at 11:00 AM, <gemini-request@lists.orbitalfox.eu> wrote: > Send Gemini mailing list submissions to > > gemini@lists.orbitalfox.eu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/listinfo/gemini > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > gemini-request@lists.orbitalfox.eu > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > gemini-owner@lists.orbitalfox.eu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Gemini digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: [request][retro] Gemini clients for windows 95, DOS, etc > > (stern) > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 16:58:54 -0700 > > From: stern stern@tilde.club > > To: gemini@lists.orbitalfox.eu > > Subject: Re: [request][retro] Gemini clients for windows 95, DOS, etc > > Message-ID: b604c3c1-c35c-fd37-2d9b-7066feeb77eb@tilde.club > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" > > On 7/12/2021 4:56 PM, Andrew Singleton wrote: > > > This is a sort of continuation of a prior thread I had made about the > > > > least powerful hardware that could use Gemini. > > > > I honestly feel bad about this as I have neither real hardware of the > > > > era, nor do I have coding experience. However in theory Gemini would be > > > > great for retro enthusiasts as it would give them something > > > > compsritovely resource light while also being actively worked on. > > > > Projects like The Old Web exist, and frankly make me smile as it gives > > > > old hardware a way to Web, or at least explore the web that was, > > > > somewhat natively. However I feel trying to force Big Web on such old > > > > machines is 'solving' the square peg round hole problem with a > > > > sledgehammer. > > > > Problem is while gopher roots would hint at the audiance here has a > > > > higher than average number of retro enthusiasts there is no gurentee at > > > > anyone caring to see what, say, Lagrange can be ported to. > > > > I also have another thought for devices that can't natively do tls > > > > involving both a client, and a pi zero, or Arduino, or even something > > > > built into that wifi to serial port device (forget the name but that is > > > > just so danged handy to have if you retro.) To handle the security bits > > > > so that those older devices can join in on the fun. > > > > Let the web demand more and more resources. Give old platforms as well > > > > as new access to Gemini. > > > > I just... Don't know if anyone here is actually interested in Doing The > > > > Thing. I just think it'd be neat and would get coverage by people like > > > > Micheal mjd, lgr, etc alongside. > > Yeah, this is quite the good idea. > > -------------- next part -------------- > > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > > Name: OpenPGP_0x25B204648F7C4DF6_and_old_rev.asc > > Type: application/pgp-keys > > Size: 9781 bytes > > Desc: OpenPGP public key > > URL: https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/attachments/20210712/09d c3410/attachment-0001.bin > > -------------- next part -------------- > > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > > Name: OpenPGP_signature > > Type: application/pgp-signature > > Size: 236 bytes > > Desc: OpenPGP digital signature > > URL: https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/attachments/20210712/09d c3410/attachment-0001.sig > > Subject: Digest Footer > > Gemini mailing list > > Gemini@lists.orbitalfox.eu > > https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/listinfo/gemini > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------- > > End of Gemini Digest, Vol 24, Issue 20
On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 11:51:29AM +0000, charliebrownau wrote: > Can we finally let 16 and 32bit finally die a peacefull death 16-bit? Maybe. 32-bit? No. > FFS , you can get an Raspi, 2nd hand optiplex or even a 2nd hand 775 2nd hand that could run Modern day 64bit > (aliexpress sells those cheap xeon 775s) I've still got an older 32-bit Raspberry Pi, and it works just fine. If "progress" means turning perfectly good computers into e-waste, I don't want progress. Computers are machines, not groceries; we should understand that software has a carbon footprint, especially when it makes entire classes of CPUs/architectures more likely to be chucked. "Recycled" electronics often end up shipped around the world and processed in an incredibly unsafe manner in developing countries. People shouldn't buy new computers until their use-case changes (e.g. a casual user who needs to start video-editing) or until their current ones break beyond reasonable repair. Buying new computers just galvanizes tech companies to keep bloating their software, creating a race to the bottom acc. to Wirth's Law. Reducing the demand for (new) computers by using old ones keeps a demand for lean software alive, which ultimately helps everyone's wallet and planet. -- /Seirdy
That was perhaps the most perfect explaination one could hope for. After all what is Gemini itself if not a refutation of Big Web's bloat and hoovering of resources for it's own sake? It isn't a regressive 'i will just use gopher!' it goes 'we don't need all this for every situation.' I'm not saying everyone should go for the minimal computer possible, but a lot of people either as hobby or outright inability to get better are on older platforms. And if someone wants to fire up a c64, or ibm, or whatever and there is a dongle that lets them get through the security aspects? Let them in. If someone has a 486 in the corner they don't want to get rid off because it was their dad's computer, or even their own first computer, or more likely got it so they can play DOS games on native hardware, and want to try some networking on it? Let them. To preach that old hardware should just be summarily thrown in the dumpster and be forgotten is honestly kinda silly. Especially given Gemini itself. The whole point is to be able to write a client in a couple hundred lines of code, so the objective is to be lean. Digging out the museum pieces is a great way of testing that if nothing else. Jul 13, 2021 10:42:09 AM Rohan Kumar <seirdy@seirdy.one>: > On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 11:51:29AM +0000, charliebrownau wrote: >> Can we finally let 16 and 32bit finally die a peacefull death > > 16-bit? Maybe. 32-bit? No. > >> FFS , you can get an Raspi, 2nd hand optiplex or even a 2nd hand 775 2nd hand that could run Modern day 64bit >> (aliexpress sells those cheap xeon 775s) > > I've still got an older 32-bit Raspberry Pi, and it works just fine. If "progress" means turning perfectly good computers into e-waste, I don't want progress. Computers are machines, not groceries; we should understand that software has a carbon footprint, especially when it makes entire classes of CPUs/architectures more likely to be chucked. > > "Recycled" electronics often end up shipped around the world and processed in an incredibly unsafe manner in developing countries. > > People shouldn't buy new computers until their use-case changes (e.g. a casual user who needs to start video-editing) or until their current ones break beyond reasonable repair. Buying new computers just galvanizes tech companies to keep bloating their software, creating a race to the bottom acc. to Wirth's Law. Reducing the demand for (new) computers by using old ones keeps a demand for lean software alive, which ultimately helps everyone's wallet and planet. > > -- > /Seirdy
On Tue, Jul 13, 2021, at 11:59 AM, Andrew Singleton wrote: > That was perhaps the most perfect explaination one could hope for. > > After all what is Gemini itself if not a refutation of Big Web's bloat > and hoovering of resources for it's own sake? It isn't a regressive 'i > will just use gopher!' it goes 'we don't need all this for every > situation.' > > I'm not saying everyone should go for the minimal computer possible, > but a lot of people either as hobby or outright inability to get better > are on older platforms. > > And if someone wants to fire up a c64, or ibm, or whatever and there is > a dongle that lets them get through the security aspects? Let them in. > If someone has a 486 in the corner they don't want to get rid off > because it was their dad's computer, or even their own first computer, > or more likely got it so they can play DOS games on native hardware, > and want to try some networking on it? Let them. > > To preach that old hardware should just be summarily thrown in the > dumpster and be forgotten is honestly kinda silly. Especially given > Gemini itself. The whole point is to be able to write a client in a > couple hundred lines of code, so the objective is to be lean. Digging > out the museum pieces is a great way of testing that if nothing else. I’d like to push back against this a bit. While I have an “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” mentality, one cannot justify running all old computers on environmental grounds because newer computers are so much more energy-efficient. Sure, the 486 in the closet might be capable of sending data over a serial port, but the Raspberry Pi it connects to that runs an operating system with modern TLS handling can handle everything the 486 can at a fraction of the power budget. If you’re in favor of running (and keeping running) old hardware on environmental grounds, then it’s worth thinking about what a cutoff point might be for energy use. Last I checked, old computers have all sorts of useful recycleable parts in them, and there’s nothing wrong with recycling a 486-based space heater after a fond farewell and replacing it with a 64- or even 32-bit Raspberry Pi that will be orders of magnitude faster at a fraction of the energy use, and be able to run modern TLS libraries itself.
Hi Nathan, > I’d like to push back against this a bit. While I have an “if it ain’t > broke, don’t fix it” mentality, one cannot justify running all old > computers on environmental grounds because newer computers are so much > more energy-efficient. Sure, the 486 in the closet might be capable of > sending data over a serial port, but the Raspberry Pi it connects to > that runs an operating system with modern TLS handling can handle > everything the 486 can at a fraction of the power budget. I think you aren't considering the embodied energy spent in manufacturing electronics. It is usually way higher than the energy spent in usage. See https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2009/06/embodied-energy-of-digital-technology.html Quoting from the article, --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- The embodied energy of the memory chip alone already exceeds the energy consumption of a laptop during its life expectancy of 3 years --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- Regards, Arun
I put a TLDR at the bottom of this giant wall of text. On Thu, Jul 15, 2021 at 05:34:29PM +0530, Arun Isaac wrote: > --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- > The embodied energy of the memory chip alone already exceeds the energy > consumption of a laptop during its life expectancy of 3 years > --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- Agreed. If you're running a datacenter or homelab, then the footprint of continued uptime could catch up to the manufacturing footprint quite easily; however, I think we should move away from the "scale everything to massive machines" approach in favor of simple software that can run on a near-vintage computer or highly-constrained environment. Implementation authors can be liberal in deciding what computers to support/not support. When deciding what computers to support on a
A 486 running Linux is still perfectly capable of handling modern crypto for something low-bandwidth like IRC or Gemini. Hell, with a 32-bit MS-DOS binary containing modern cryptography, you could probably do Gemini just fine on the very first 32 bit x86 chip, an 80386SX. The m68k equivalent of the 386 is the MC68030, which is widely considered the minimum for running Linux or NetBSD on Amigas and Macs. 8-bit and 16-bit are definitely too slow to do Gemini without special crypto accelerator hardware. -- tidux@sdf.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.org
On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 11:51:29 +0000 charliebrownau <charliebrownau@protonmail.com> wrote: > Gday > > If anyone still has a working XT to PIII with Win9x > I would be amazed > > The IDE, RLL, ISA and ATX PSU's would all be past its shelf life > > Can we finally let 16 and 32bit finally die a peacefull death > > FFS , you can get an Raspi, 2nd hand optiplex or even a 2nd hand 775 > 2nd hand that could run Modern day 64bit (aliexpress sells those > cheap xeon 775s) > Not everyone can afford a new machine. No, not even the one you are thinking of. I've done some voluntary IT support for families near the poverty line in Szeged where they could just barely afford cheap used 32 bit laptops. There are many in worse situations. The anecdote I like to bring up is the girl who had to fill out a government form online on her second hand PSP so that she could have temporary housing, because that's all she had. If you think she doesn't deserve to connect to a website or gemini capsule, then you need to re-check your priorities. (for context: Szeged is a decent sized city and an important education hub with many tech companies. and yet it still has poor people. i know, shocking.) There is also the issue of e-waste and energy efficiency, on that you should go read this: https://wimvanderbauwhede.github.io/articles/frugal-computing/
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