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[users] Name for Gemini-style text with links?

1. Nathan Galt (mailinglists (a) ngalt.com)

Everyone seems to agree that HTML is hypertext, but opinions are split, to 
say the least, about whether Gemini text is.

Is there a known word for Gemini text-style links?

Namely:

- Links must be on their own line (as opposed to inline in a paragraph)
- Links may have text associated with them (to tell the user what any 
given link is about)

I'd like to have a word to describe Gemini-text link style, if only to 
contrast it with good HTML linking style. In HTML, I can explain something 
inline with just an unobtrusive link, whereas in Gemini-style text I'd 
need to explain the reference beforehand (top of paragraph, top of 
section, top of page, what have you) or afterward (end of paragraph, end 
of section, end of page).

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2. Vasco Costa (vasco.costa (a) gmx.com)

On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 01:21:40AM -0800, Nathan Galt wrote:
> Everyone seems to agree that HTML is hypertext, but opinions are split, 
to say the least, about whether Gemini text is.
>
> Is there a known word for Gemini text-style links?

Like I've said in a previous message recently, the definition of
hypertext/hyperlink seems to be extremely generic. I haven't seen any
constraints saying it must be possible for links to be embedded in-line
in paragraphs, nor have I seen anything that deems links on a newline by
themselves as non-hyperlinks. I really see the concept of hyperlinks as
something more abstract, presentation-neutral and representable by a
graph. It just happened that HTML and others allowed such embedding...

That being said, and getting back to your question, what if we just call
them links? The word link seems to be universally accepted as something
less restrictive than hyperlink. Perhaps there's no need to find a
specific word for Gemini?

--
Vasco Costa

AKA gluon. Enthusiastic about computers, motorsports, science,
technology, travelling and TV series. Yes I'm a bit of a geek.

Gemini: gemini://gluonspace.com/
Gopher: gopher://gopher.geeksphere.tk/

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3. Luke Emmet (luke (a) marmaladefoo.com)



On 15-Feb-2021 10:30, Vasco Costa wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 01:21:40AM -0800, Nathan Galt wrote:
>> Everyone seems to agree that HTML is hypertext, but opinions are split, 
to say the least, about whether Gemini text is.
There may be a range of valid and invalid opinions :) but Gemini forms a 
hypertext system.

We are so used to the most pervasive hypertext system - the web - with 
its fine grained inline markup, we may not realise that it is simply one 
of the forms hypertext can take.

Gopher is a hypertext system too.

>> Is there a known word for Gemini text-style links?

They are simply hyperlinks because Gemini is hypertext. We can call them 
links too as that is a common enough term.

As we know, Wikipedia has its issues, but its definition of hypertext is 
not bad

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypertext

> "Hypertext is text displayed on a computer display or other electronic 
> devices with references (hyperlinks) to other text that the reader can 
> immediately access.[1] Hypertext documents are interconnected by 
> hyperlinks, which are typically activated by a mouse click, keypress 
> set, or by touching the screen."

Hypertext does have to be defined by a markup language, like the web or 
Gemini, but it is a good decentralised and scalable solution. Otherwise 
you need some sort of centralised system to define the hypertext graph - 
fine for small in-house hypertexts, but not scalable.

Regards

 ?- Luke

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4. Luke Emmet (luke (a) marmaladefoo.com)



On 15-Feb-2021 10:54, Luke Emmet wrote:
>
> Hypertext does have to be defined by a markup language, like the web 
> or Gemini, but it is a good decentralised and scalable solution. 
> Otherwise you need some sort of centralised system to define the 
> hypertext graph - fine for small in-house hypertexts, but not scalable.
>

Oof - sorry for the typo - I meant to write "Hypertext does [not] have 
to be defined by ..."

I suppose one might quibble whether Gemtext is markup - I see it as a 
line based markup format since the line type "#, *, => " is embedded in 
the line itself. You can also think of it as a menu like Gophermap, 
although it's not such a strict menu type as a Gophermap, but you can 
see the provenance from that line of thinking.

Gemtext is the unexpected and surprisingly successful love child of 
Gophermaps and Markdown. We all hope to inherit the best attributes from 
each of our parents...

Regards

 ?- Luke

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5. stereo (stereo (a) gnubox.org)

Hi all,

should we just called it

"gemlinks"?  ;)

best,
ralf

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6. Jason McBrayer (jmcbray (a) carcosa.net)


Luke Emmet writes:
> On 15-Feb-2021 10:30, Vasco Costa wrote:
>>> Everyone seems to agree that HTML is hypertext, but opinions are
>>> split, to say the least, about whether Gemini text is.

> We are so used to the most pervasive hypertext system - the web - with
> its fine grained inline markup, we may not realise that it is simply
> one of the forms hypertext can take.

I know at least one hypertext purist who would argue that the web isn't
hypertext either, because it doesn't meet many of the standards of
Project Xanadu. Web links aren't bi-directional, they can be broken, and
there's no transclusion.

I think we don't need to get hung up on whether Gemtext is hypertext.

-- 
Jason McBrayer      | ?Strange is the night where black stars rise,
jmcbray at carcosa.net | and strange moons circle through the skies,
                    | but stranger still is lost Carcosa.?
                    | ? Robert W. Chambers,The King in Yellow

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7. John Cowan (cowan (a) ccil.org)

On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 5:54 AM Luke Emmet <luke at marmaladefoo.com> wrote:


> >> Is there a known word for Gemini text-style links?
>
> They are simply hyperlinks because Gemini is hypertext.


Indeed, "hyperlink" is short for "hypertext link"; there were hypertexts
(in the sense of texts not necessarily to be read in a linear order) long
before there were links.  The Talmud, the book of Jewish law and culture,
is a hypertext, for example.  Each page consists of nine sections, laid out
in three columns plus margins.  In the top of the middle column is the
Mishna (1), typically a question with some basic possible answers, each
attributed to an early Jewish sage.  Below that is the Gemara (2), the
record of a centuries-long discussion and clarification of the Mishna.
Here's a fictional example:


SAYS: UNTIL ONE HOUR BEFORE. RABBI GAMALIEL SAYS: UNTIL MIDNIGHT.


said: Until eight in the evening, for it is as my father taught: ?No story
for you, young man, if you?re not in bed by bedtime.? Can it be that
bedtime is eight? Is it not written (Kohelet [Ecclesiastes], 7:30), ?of
making of bedtimes there is no end?? [The cases of ] Kings are different,
as it is written, ?And David addressed them, saying: ?You kids don?t know
how good you have it. If I wanted a bedtime psalm growing up, I had to
write it myself.?

Shmuel said, until eight means until eight years old. From where does he
get this? As it says in *The Little Midrash [Interpretation] Says What I
Want It To*, ?And Aaron said to Yochebed his mother, ?If I hear that stupid
story one more time I swear I?ll kill somebody. Mo is six?can?t he read it
to himself??? How does this teach us anything? Moses was six, and he wanted
the story read to him. Six, but not seven; and the Mishna which says until
eight, means up to but not including, so that we read to a seven-year-old
but not an eight-year-old. But maybe Moses was different? No, we learn the
law from Aaron, and we do not read aloud in the presence of
eight-year-olds, because of the prohibition of tempting minors to lose
their tempers.

Maybe Aaron was different, because he did all the talking and his brother
took all the credit? No, let us not say that, because it is said of Aaron
that he loved peace and chased peace and loved his brother and chased his
brother and only once was his brother rushed to the emergency room.

Rabbi Bluto ben Rav Popeye said, ?Once I visited the Academy in Pumpeditha.
The sages were debating the question of eight inclusively or eight
exclusively. For seven years they argued this point, and not once did they
arrive home from the Academy in time to put their children to bed.?

Abaye once told his mother: ?I do not want to go to bed. I will run away
and become a Torah scholar and hide in the study hall where you can?t find
me and they wouldn?t let you in even if you did.? Said his mother: ?If you
become a Torah scholar and hide in the study hall, then I will be the
vending machine that sells you Coca Cola so you can stay up all night
learning.? ?If you are going to dispense soda,? said Abaye, ?then I will by
all means become a Torah scholar.? And so he did.

Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi said, ?Better to read two books by Dr. Seuss than to
read *Goodnight Moon* once.? It is from here we learn of the prohibition of
ktav isha (reading writings written by women).

Every night, Rabbi Bag Bag would recite before his son. His son would say:
?Read it again! Read it again! Read it again, Abba! [Father!]?


In the right column of the page is Rashi's commentary (3), the purpose of
which is to explain the plain meaning of Mishna and Gemara to students.
The left column (4), which extends across the bottom of the center and
right columns, contains commentaries from a variety of sources.  Squeezed
into the narrow space between the middle and right columns are any Biblical
cross-references (7).

The upper part of the right margin contains cross-references to similar
parts of the Talmud (5) near the top; more cross-references, short
definitions of hard words, emendations of errors, and references to modern
commentaries (8) are placed further down.  The upper part of the left
margin contains references to major Jewish legal codes compiled from the
Mishna and the Gemara (6), and the lower part (which extends across the
bottom margin) contains any additional commentaries (9).

You can see a single page at <
http://murals.wbtla.org/uploads/2/4/7/9/24790045/talmud_layout_(1).pdf>
with numbers on the sections.

Hypertext does have to be defined by a markup language, like the web or
> Gemini, but it is a good decentralised and scalable solution. Otherwise
> you need some sort of centralised system to define the hypertext graph -
> fine for small in-house hypertexts, but not scalable.


There is no problem with storing links out-of-band rather than embedded in
a document.  As long as the links point in one direction only, this is
perfectly scalable.



John Cowan          http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan        cowan at ccil.org
You annoy me, Rattray!  You disgust me! You irritate me unspeakably!
Thank Heaven, I am a man of equable temper, or I should scarcely be able
to contain myself before your mocking visage.  --Stalky imitating Macrea
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8. Stephane Bortzmeyer (stephane (a) sources.org)

On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 08:17:13AM -0500,
 Jason McBrayer <jmcbray at carcosa.net> wrote 
 a message of 22 lines which said:

> I think we don't need to get hung up on whether Gemtext is hypertext.

I'm not sure. For outreach, it is important. If we claim that Gemini
is hypertext, beginning authors of gemtexts will be disappointed when
they discover they cannot add a link on a word.

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9. Luke Orlando Emmet (luke (a) marmaladefoo.com)

On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 16:08, Stephane Bortzmeyer <stephane at sources.org>
wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 08:17:13AM -0500,
>  Jason McBrayer <jmcbray at carcosa.net> wrote
>  a message of 22 lines which said:
>
> > I think we don't need to get hung up on whether Gemtext is hypertext.
>
> I'm not sure. For outreach, it is important. If we claim that Gemini
> is hypertext, beginning authors of gemtexts will be disappointed when
> they discover they cannot add a link on a word.
>

Yes the web has inevitably set a lot of cultural norms expectations (inline
markup, images, stylesheets, fonts etc) for online hypermedia that Gemini
has to push against when first encountered by new authors. It may turn some
off, but I hope enough will stay and come to appreciate the benefits as
well as the losses of the simplicity of its choices.

 - Luke
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10. Oliver Simmons (oliversimmo (a) gmail.com)

For Gemini-style link markup I think "gemini link" (or "gemlink" for
short) makes sense.
A "Gemini link" doesn't exist, what you mean is Gemini-style link markup.

A hyperlink is a link between electronic documents, created via markup
of some form, being inline is entirely irrelevant to this matter, so
is having label text.

"link" as a word by itself is: "A unit in a connected series of units." :P
When using "link" in terms of e-documents (like I do in this email),
we mean a hyperlink.

- Oliver Simmons

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11. Oliver Simmons (oliversimmo (a) gmail.com)

Just want to add a note that I was just clarifying when I said

> A "Gemini link" doesn't exist, what you mean is Gemini-style link markup.

Absolutely nothing wrong with calling them Gemini links :)

On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 at 13:11, Oliver Simmons <oliversimmo at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> For Gemini-style link markup I think "gemini link" (or "gemlink" for
> short) makes sense.
> A "Gemini link" doesn't exist, what you mean is Gemini-style link markup.
>
> A hyperlink is a link between electronic documents, created via markup
> of some form, being inline is entirely irrelevant to this matter, so
> is having label text.
>
> "link" as a word by itself is: "A unit in a connected series of units." :P
> When using "link" in terms of e-documents (like I do in this email),
> we mean a hyperlink.
>
> - Oliver Simmons

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