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💾 Archived View for gemini.ctrl-c.club › ~phoebos › logs › kisslinux-2023-10-29.txt captured on 2024-05-26 at 15:57:55.
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[2023-10-29T01:36:12Z] <ehawkvu> phoebos: yes that's me
[2023-10-29T05:05:48Z] <sewn> hi
[2023-10-29T05:05:55Z] <sad_plan> hi sewn 
[2023-10-29T05:06:40Z] <sewn> hi sad_plan
[2023-10-29T05:06:53Z] <sewn> when will the libplacebo thing of mpv get merged
[2023-10-29T05:07:04Z] <sewn> mpv cannot be built currently without it
[2023-10-29T05:07:48Z] <sad_plan> wym, I built mpv recently without issues. no libplacebo
[2023-10-29T05:07:57Z] <sad_plan> 0.36.0
[2023-10-29T05:08:28Z] <sewn> phhhh
[2023-10-29T05:08:33Z] <sewn> what
[2023-10-29T05:08:38Z] <sad_plan> :D
[2023-10-29T05:08:42Z] <sewn> you're using kiss-xorg right
[2023-10-29T05:08:55Z] <sad_plan> my own
[2023-10-29T05:09:09Z] <sewn> kiss-xorg uses git mpv for some stupid reason
[2023-10-29T05:09:12Z] <sad_plan> its not that different though. just disable couple more stuff
[2023-10-29T05:09:14Z] <sewn> which breaks without libplacebo
[2023-10-29T05:09:23Z] <sewn> hadn't realized repo uses stablr
[2023-10-29T05:09:39Z] <sad_plan> well there you have it :p
[2023-10-29T05:10:04Z] <sewn> mpv releases once or twice a year
[2023-10-29T05:10:21Z] <sewn> its been a few months since the last one
[2023-10-29T05:10:29Z] <sewn> could release at any moment
[2023-10-29T05:12:23Z] <sad_plan> sure. one could also just pin to certain commits. I often do that to avoid the bs of having to reclone repos. which requires internet
[2023-10-29T05:12:46Z] <sewn> my best guess is that stable mpv needs libplacebo as a subproject anyeay
[2023-10-29T05:13:21Z] <sewn> but it doesn't require it as a subproject, more of a system library
[2023-10-29T05:13:46Z] <sewn> and kiss doesn't like bundled packages (except compose-tables and xkeyboard-config)
[2023-10-29T07:01:11Z] <ehawkvu> anyone here familiar with bubblewrap?
[2023-10-29T07:01:20Z] <sewn> testuse:
[2023-10-29T07:01:22Z] <sewn> nvm hes not here
[2023-10-29T07:01:26Z] <sewn> i think he is
[2023-10-29T07:01:46Z] <ehawkvu> I'm experiencing one of the strangest bugs...
[2023-10-29T07:01:50Z] <sewn> what is it?
[2023-10-29T07:01:55Z] <ehawkvu> relevant code for anyone interested ~ https://github.com/ehawkvu/kiss.el/blob/0a958b4c212f8fa0ad59b17935ef2c3bd524bfca/kiss.el#L1207
[2023-10-29T07:02:14Z] <ehawkvu> so, right now I'm working on having builds that occur inside bubblewrap
[2023-10-29T07:02:28Z] <sewn> is there no bwrap library
[2023-10-29T07:02:43Z] <sewn> or are you unable to do that in listp
[2023-10-29T07:02:50Z] <sewn> also wow i never knew this was that big
[2023-10-29T07:03:01Z] <ehawkvu> I'm shelling out to the cli so it's a non-issue
[2023-10-29T07:03:02Z] <ehawkvu> anyways
[2023-10-29T07:03:29Z] <ehawkvu> the first time that the code runs, it immediately fails, claiming that it is unable to find the package's build script
[2023-10-29T07:03:51Z] <ehawkvu> however, when you run the code a second time, it magically works
[2023-10-29T07:04:22Z] <ehawkvu> Maybe there's something I'm not understanding when it comes to how you are properly supposed to expose binds, but that behavior seems completely wrong
[2023-10-29T08:37:02Z] <sewn> kisslinux has 49 members
[2023-10-29T08:37:06Z] <sewn> i recall kisslinux having like alot more than that
[2023-10-29T09:47:47Z] <sewn> I wonder where everyone went
[2023-10-29T09:48:03Z] <sewn> it used to be super active back then!!!
[2023-10-29T14:20:09Z] <sad_plan> hi
[2023-10-29T14:21:05Z] <sad_plan> sewn: im asking myself the same question. used to me so much more activity here
[2023-10-29T14:22:00Z] <ukky> sad_plan: hi. I hope you don't mind me staying here, as I am not using KISS Linux, just curious.
[2023-10-29T14:24:41Z] <sad_plan> ukky: I dont. I just pointed out that its alot less activity here now, than what it used to be
[2023-10-29T14:24:51Z] <sad_plan> why arent you using kiss though?
[2023-10-29T14:27:05Z] <ukky> when time came to switch from previous distro, made a decision to try another distro first. But I like many features of KISS Linux.
[2023-10-29T14:28:22Z] <sad_plan> I see. what distro are you on now?
[2023-10-29T14:29:48Z] <ukky> using CRUX now. switched from Gentoo.
[2023-10-29T14:32:22Z] <sad_plan> cool. never tried crux myself. can you use only personal ports on crux aswell as kiss' personal repos?
[2023-10-29T14:36:20Z] <ukky> yes, you can. I modify a lot of official ports, plus create new ports.
[2023-10-29T14:40:51Z] <sad_plan> cool. its nice to see that other distros also allow aloot of user freedoms, in terms of customization
[2023-10-29T14:45:13Z] <sewn> what is crux's package format? makefiles?
[2023-10-29T14:48:41Z] <sad_plan> i think theyre just called pkgfiles
[2023-10-29T14:48:56Z] <ukky> main file is 'Pkgfile', which is sourced from a shell script. Pkgfile defines deps, optional deps, source locations, and build() function that compiles and creates files in package dir
[2023-10-29T15:11:34Z] <ukky> which device manager is mostly used in kiss linux, mdev or udev? Does anybody use static /dev? Just curious.
[2023-10-29T15:22:16Z] <sad_plan> busybox's mdev is probably the most used, then comes mdevd.
[2023-10-29T15:22:28Z] <sad_plan> I personally dont use anything at all
[2023-10-29T15:27:50Z] <ukky> I tried static /dev first, then moved onto busybox' mdev. Most crux users use eudev (default).
[2023-10-29T15:29:55Z] <sad_plan> I see. static /dev didnt cut it for you?
[2023-10-29T15:32:58Z] <ukky> Static /dev was working well, I just like to experiment and find optimal solution. I might switch back to static /dev if something will bother me using mdev.
[2023-10-29T15:37:14Z] <sad_plan> sure. I personally dont need it, because I use tinyx, so the devices I use gets detected just fine without it
[2023-10-29T15:37:59Z] <ukky> Switching from SystemV to Runit made my system boot faster, from 50 seconds to 10 seconds, measuring from starting /sbit/init to agetty login prompt.
[2023-10-29T15:40:29Z] <sad_plan> thats a really nice improvement
[2023-10-29T15:40:36Z] <ukky> sad_plan: timyx, like from https://github.com/tinycorelinux/tinyx ?
[2023-10-29T15:40:44Z] <sad_plan> correct
[2023-10-29T15:40:54Z] <ukky> cool
[2023-10-29T15:40:58Z] <sad_plan> statically linked however :D
[2023-10-29T15:41:50Z] <ukky> Do you mean non-configurable, or 'gcc -static' ?
[2023-10-29T15:43:40Z] <sad_plan> gcc -static. although I now use -static-pie so that I can enable aslr or w/e it was called
[2023-10-29T15:45:07Z] <ukky> Why static? It seems like everybody voices agains it?
[2023-10-29T15:45:53Z] <ukky> I even disable '-static' for non-initramfs busybox build.
[2023-10-29T15:47:36Z] <sad_plan> why not? that is also part of why I enjoy it.
[2023-10-29T15:47:46Z] <sad_plan> static linking is also getting rather niche, which is something I can enjoy
[2023-10-29T15:47:55Z] <sad_plan> I also have none of the issues with abi instabilty
[2023-10-29T15:48:20Z] <sad_plan> I dont *have* to rebuild a package when a library gets updated an thus breaks several packages
[2023-10-29T15:48:27Z] <ukky> of course, there are advantages to static linking
[2023-10-29T15:49:29Z] <sad_plan> yep. old system like plan9 iirc, is statically linked, so its somewhat a thing of the past. I does however require you to rebuild packages when libraries and such are updates, so it does take a more toll on your system. not that it matters to me
[2023-10-29T15:50:03Z] <sad_plan> for the most part I did initially just enjoy that I could remove aloot of packages which wasnt needed at runtime anymore due to static linking.
[2023-10-29T15:50:15Z] <sad_plan> potentially, I can even remove zlib
[2023-10-29T15:50:28Z] <sad_plan> with oasislinux, you can even skip having a libc
[2023-10-29T15:50:43Z] <sad_plan> that said, if you have a 100% statically linked system
[2023-10-29T15:53:28Z] <sad_plan> alot of people would probably scoff at that, and ask; why the hell would you even do that?
[2023-10-29T15:53:39Z] <sad_plan> my answer to this is simple; because I can
[2023-10-29T15:54:27Z] <ukky> respect for going extra mile beyond what is considered normal/default
[2023-10-29T15:56:40Z] <sad_plan> yeah. my biggest hurdle is really the browser though. if you cant use mesa, available browsers is.. lacking.
[2023-10-29T15:57:10Z] <sad_plan> your mostly left with textbased browsers like links or lynx, or perhaps netsurf like oasis uses
[2023-10-29T15:58:27Z] <sewn>  /join #sourcemage
[2023-10-29T15:58:29Z] <sewn> oops
[2023-10-29T16:00:03Z] <ukky> yeah, most browsers have crazy dependencies. ATK, D-Bus, you name it
[2023-10-29T16:01:04Z] <sewn> chromium and firefox doesnt need atk
[2023-10-29T16:01:05Z] <sewn> nor dbus
[2023-10-29T16:01:12Z] <sewn> they are optional, each provide their own notification handling
[2023-10-29T16:02:15Z] <sad_plan> I knoow.. theyre rather horrible, or I like firefox initially, but its horrible to build from scratch.. alot of work, and takes ages to build everything needed
[2023-10-29T16:02:37Z] <sad_plan> not that webkit is that much better though. actually has more deps, and takes just about the same time to build as firefox does
[2023-10-29T16:02:39Z] <ukky> I couldn't remove sime stuff from chromium, but could remove ATK and D-Bus from firefox. Removing ATK from Gentoo was painful.
[2023-10-29T16:02:43Z] <sewn> firefox takes 10 minutes chromium takes 3 hours
[2023-10-29T16:02:57Z] <sewn> ukky: just do know that chromium needs atk actually
[2023-10-29T16:03:02Z] <sewn> but in the build system it uses it doesnt require it
[2023-10-29T16:03:25Z] <sewn> the atk patch in gtk+ just has stub functions which makes chromium die or gtk die (kiss-xorg #145)
[2023-10-29T16:03:25Z] <sad_plan> I cant help but feel that gentoo isnt always as user friendy when it comes to customizations.. 
[2023-10-29T16:03:45Z] <sewn> gentoo: portage.conf edit
[2023-10-29T16:03:51Z] <sewn> kisslinux: fork package, read build system flags
[2023-10-29T16:03:57Z] <ukky> sewn: maybe ATK was the reason I could not use chromium on my setup after I removed ATK
[2023-10-29T16:04:09Z] <sewn> yes, chromium on x11 without atk will do a segfault
[2023-10-29T16:04:12Z] <sad_plan> but in portage.conf, you can specify wether curl build with nls, correct?
[2023-10-29T16:04:19Z] <sad_plan> s/can/cant
[2023-10-29T16:04:28Z] <sewn> what is nls?
[2023-10-29T16:04:52Z] <sad_plan> native language support. kiss removes it on more or less all packages upstream
[2023-10-29T16:05:02Z] <sad_plan> --disable-nls usually
[2023-10-29T16:05:09Z] <sewn> gentoo is doing its bare minimum to 'support everyone'
[2023-10-29T16:05:11Z] <ukky> Gentoo is _very_ good at customization, but became overbloated to my taste.
[2023-10-29T16:05:15Z] <sewn> which yknow i think nls is still important for them
[2023-10-29T16:05:20Z] <sewn> i wish i had makeflags on kiss
[2023-10-29T16:06:13Z] <sad_plan> cant please everyone I suppose. or rather you can, by just giving the user the ability to choose for them selves, like KISS does
[2023-10-29T16:06:57Z] <sewn> kiss is a meta-distro, its designed to be easy to fork so i cant really blame
[2023-10-29T16:07:13Z] <sad_plan> exacly.
[2023-10-29T16:07:36Z] <sad_plan> is there other meta distros really? or distros that specifically define themselfs as meta-distros
[2023-10-29T16:07:54Z] <sewn> i dont know of any
[2023-10-29T16:10:53Z] <sad_plan> bedrock is appearently considered a meta-distro
[2023-10-29T16:11:44Z] <sad_plan> and mocaccinOS. never heard of it. is also a meta-distro. just looked up meta-distros
[2023-10-29T16:14:25Z] <sewn> bedrock is like a table
[2023-10-29T16:14:39Z] <sewn> you put prebuilt furnitures on it
[2023-10-29T16:14:48Z] <sewn> kiss is a set of instructions, a plank of wood and some tools
[2023-10-29T16:16:04Z] <paradigm> sad_plan: Gentoo considers itself a metadistro: https://www.gentoo.org/get-started/about/
[2023-10-29T16:16:55Z] <paradigm> The Bedrock Linux project's definition of a metadistro also includes LFS, but I'm not sure if LFS considers themselves a metadistro: https://bedrocklinux.org/faq.html#what-is-meta
[2023-10-29T16:19:25Z] <sewn> lfs is a 1000-page book of instructions, a plank of wood, and no tools
[2023-10-29T16:44:31Z] <sad_plan> so basically it means that the distro does not distrobute end-goal software. what
[2023-10-29T16:49:47Z] <sad_plan> that means that more or less all source-based distros are technically meta-distros, as they dont distrobute the software it self. atleast thats how I understand it
[2023-10-29T17:15:37Z] <paradigm> This is one of those things where you may not have clean groupings, and definitions here get blurry.  Even non-meta "Linux distro" can be hard to define; Debian is usually categorized as such, but they offer non-Linux kernels like FreeBSD and HURD/Mach.  But yes, I think the Bedrock definition would effectively include all source-based Linux distros (along with other not necessarily source based 
[2023-10-29T17:15:43Z] <paradigm> projects).
[2023-10-29T17:21:45Z] <sad_plan> exacly
[2023-10-29T17:30:19Z] <sewn> t