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[2022-10-01T04:29:06Z] <sad_plan> o/
[2022-10-01T04:29:18Z] <wael[m]> hi
[2022-10-01T05:18:05Z] <testuser[m]> Hi
[2022-10-01T05:18:27Z] <testuser[m]> rohan: Wdym "pulls still in my git account"
[2022-10-01T05:39:52Z] <sad_plan> Im guessing it didnt get moved over to codeberg when he moved from github to codeberg
[2022-10-01T05:41:13Z] <testuser[m]> What didn't move over
[2022-10-01T05:41:17Z] <testuser[m]> new pulls?
[2022-10-01T05:41:30Z] <sad_plan> his existing PRs 
[2022-10-01T05:41:37Z] <sad_plan> thats atleast my guess here :p
[2022-10-01T05:41:57Z] <testuser[m]> no
[2022-10-01T05:42:02Z] <testuser[m]> Everything is copied
[2022-10-01T05:42:05Z] <wael[m]> idk if he means PRs from other repos or existing PRs in codeberg kiss repos
[2022-10-01T05:42:24Z] <wael[m]> if existing PRs in migrated codeberg repo with github linked account you should be good as @testuser said
[2022-10-01T05:43:01Z] <sad_plan> then Im not sure what he means. 
[2022-10-01T05:43:05Z] * sad_plan shrugs
[2022-10-01T08:20:48Z] <sad_plan> why cant I pre set dimentions for firefox window in command line? doesnt it work?
[2022-10-01T08:26:48Z] <sad_plan> nevermind, Ive found it. my user.js had pre set it already, so had to change it
[2022-10-01T10:17:09Z] <testuser[m]> https://github.com/kisslinux/repo/pull/325#issuecomment-926362411
[2022-10-01T10:26:47Z] <sad_plan> there were no pr made though
[2022-10-01T12:55:13Z] <sereg> we have a song of the day !? learn something new everyday 
[2022-10-01T12:55:30Z] <wael[m]> real
[2022-10-01T12:55:35Z] <sereg> oh i love mandolin! 
[2022-10-01T13:01:39Z] <sereg> kisslinux has good taste confirmed
[2022-10-01T13:24:11Z] <testuser[m]> Is anyone running s6
[2022-10-01T13:24:12Z] <testuser[m]> How tf do you even set it up
[2022-10-01T13:35:24Z] <wael[m]> whats the point of s6 if busybox comes with runit
[2022-10-01T14:38:12Z] <testuser[m]> Figured it out
[2022-10-01T14:45:17Z] <testuser[m]> https://yewtu.be/watch?v=lE4UXdJSJM4
[2022-10-01T15:02:53Z] <midfavila> wael[m] not everyone running kiss uses busybox
[2022-10-01T15:03:00Z] <midfavila> and some people don't like sysv-style init
[2022-10-01T15:03:17Z] <wael[m]> would they be using toybox?
[2022-10-01T15:03:42Z] <midfavila> they could use whatever coreutils they wanted
[2022-10-01T15:03:58Z] <midfavila> i use a combination of suckless, plan9, bsd and self-written tools, myself
[2022-10-01T15:04:12Z] <midfavila> with a handful of GNU programs
[2022-10-01T15:04:13Z] <wael[m]> so what does /bin/cat belong to
[2022-10-01T15:04:32Z] <midfavila> my own utils
[2022-10-01T15:04:45Z] <wael[m]> and /bin/tar
[2022-10-01T15:04:55Z] <midfavila> libarchive, which I believe is commonly used on the BSDs
[2022-10-01T15:04:56Z] <wael[m]> you might as well call it coreutil cocktail
[2022-10-01T15:05:46Z] <wael[m]> so you dont have a primary coreutils, you have many programs belonging to plan9port, sbase/ubase, self-written, gnu?
[2022-10-01T15:05:56Z] <midfavila> yes
[2022-10-01T15:06:03Z] <wael[m]> but why
[2022-10-01T15:07:25Z] <midfavila> generally I prefer the suckless utilities, but they don't cover all usecases (for example, their tar is lacklustre, and they lack goodies like fortune). plan 9 can fill in for some of the goodies, but the p9 coreutils aren't posix. when i need something more featureful than suckless and more compliant than p9, bsd offers utilities that fit that niche. when I absolutely need GNU tools (for projects that require them), those are there
[2022-10-01T15:07:58Z] <wael[m]> are you on KISS? and if so do you maintain these as KISS packages?
[2022-10-01T15:08:03Z] <midfavila> yes and yes.
[2022-10-01T15:08:12Z] <wael[m]> can i have repoz linkz plz
[2022-10-01T15:08:19Z] <midfavila> but my system is, aside from using the kiss package manager, unrecognizable as a kiss system
[2022-10-01T15:08:24Z] <midfavila> https://git.sdf.org/midfavila/kiss-mfavila
[2022-10-01T15:08:36Z] <midfavila> note that I use the older format for my packages, so it might be incompatible with your system
[2022-10-01T15:08:56Z] <wael[m]> older format?
[2022-10-01T15:09:09Z] <midfavila> static package format, instead of using the KISS DSL
[2022-10-01T15:10:16Z] <wael[m]> jesus christ
[2022-10-01T15:10:26Z] <wael[m]> you KNOW your software VERY well it seems
[2022-10-01T15:10:35Z] <midfavila> kinda-sorta
[2022-10-01T15:11:09Z] <wael[m]> personally im fine with busybox, though i like the features of util-linux unfortunately
[2022-10-01T15:11:32Z] <midfavila> i think i only use fdisk from util-linux
[2022-10-01T15:12:52Z] <wael[m]> i want to use toybox considering its toolset but its apparently incomplete and unstable
[2022-10-01T15:12:57Z] <midfavila> so I've heard
[2022-10-01T15:13:01Z] <midfavila> i've not looked at it
[2022-10-01T15:13:06Z] <wael[m]> i havent tried it but i wont try it
[2022-10-01T15:13:07Z] <midfavila> i have no interest in *box-style executables
[2022-10-01T15:13:25Z] <wael[m]> sbase is often compiled in box-style
[2022-10-01T15:13:39Z] <midfavila> i'm aware. i avoid doing so
[2022-10-01T15:13:48Z] <wael[m]> why?
[2022-10-01T15:14:30Z] <midfavila> i don't like the idea of a single file being the only thing that needs to be removed or damaged to render my entire system inoperable 
[2022-10-01T15:14:54Z] <wael[m]> but interms of size and linking, wouldnt it be better?
[2022-10-01T15:15:23Z] <midfavila> in terms of disk size, and perhaps memory usage, but I'm not concerned about a few extra megs of disk space being taken up
[2022-10-01T15:15:33Z] <midfavila> performance isn't a concern for me.
[2022-10-01T15:15:53Z] <midfavila> i'm more interested in having a relatively stable and easy to understand system than anything else
[2022-10-01T15:16:09Z] <wael[m]> quite interesting considering you have a coreutils cocktail lol
[2022-10-01T15:16:38Z] <midfavila> having a set of separate utility programs that each do one defined task is in my opinion a simpler design than having a single monolithic executable that does everything.
[2022-10-01T15:16:49Z] <wael[m]> true
[2022-10-01T15:17:10Z] <midfavila> having separate vendors provide different aspects of my system doesn't increase the system's complexity
[2022-10-01T15:17:18Z] <midfavila> although it does perhaps make maintaining it slightly more tedious
[2022-10-01T15:17:24Z] <wael[m]> ill take a look into sbase/ubase and see if it has the features i need
[2022-10-01T15:17:32Z] <wael[m]> however what is the 'plan9' coreutils?
[2022-10-01T15:17:38Z] <wael[m]> considering its for plan9 wouldnt it be incompatible with linux
[2022-10-01T15:17:42Z] <midfavila> no
[2022-10-01T15:17:53Z] <midfavila> porting plan 9 programs to unix is trivial because of how portable plan 9 programs already are
[2022-10-01T15:18:03Z] <wael[m]> where can i obtain the sources so i can try it
[2022-10-01T15:18:06Z] <midfavila> the p9port and 9base both include the p9 c library and things like yacc and stuff
[2022-10-01T15:18:10Z] <wael[m]> and the same for 'bsd' thing
[2022-10-01T15:18:31Z] <midfavila> some tools used in the BSDs can be acquired outside of their source tree
[2022-10-01T15:18:46Z] <midfavila> for example, I believe the package in my repo called "gavin-bc" is the basis for the fBSD bc
[2022-10-01T15:19:04Z] <wael[m]> itnerseting
[2022-10-01T15:19:12Z] <midfavila> you can also use plan9port on github if you want a more complete p9 experience under linux
[2022-10-01T15:19:17Z] <midfavila> it includes things like rio
[2022-10-01T15:21:06Z] <wael[m]> i do not know exactly what kind of features i expect from coreutils ngl
[2022-10-01T15:21:19Z] <midfavila> you should perhaps consider that before experimenting with them
[2022-10-01T15:21:37Z] <midfavila> it's easy to get yourself in a bit of a pickle if you just start swapping things out 
[2022-10-01T15:21:45Z] <wael[m]> for one, i am scared of suckless coreutils as it could have many features that i would expect removed
[2022-10-01T15:21:56Z] <midfavila> almost certainly does
[2022-10-01T15:22:03Z] <midfavila> for example, suckless sed has no -i
[2022-10-01T15:22:08Z] <wael[m]> for example tar
[2022-10-01T15:22:14Z] <wael[m]> tar xvf GNU syntax does not work
[2022-10-01T15:22:23Z] <midfavila> there's a patch for it in the community repos
[2022-10-01T15:22:28Z] <wael[m]> ah
[2022-10-01T15:22:36Z] <midfavila> since my package is a fork of that, it should also include that patch
[2022-10-01T15:23:00Z] <wael[m]> what kind of utilities have you explicitly removed/ignored from sbase to be replaced by plan9/bsd/gnu ?
[2022-10-01T15:23:18Z] <testuser[m]> https://0x0.st/o4UV.png
[2022-10-01T15:23:24Z] <testuser[m]> s6
[2022-10-01T15:23:25Z] <midfavila> plan 9 is exclusively for supplementing my userspace
[2022-10-01T15:23:28Z] <midfavila> it replaces nothing
[2022-10-01T15:23:38Z] <wael[m]> testuser: how is s6 service management compared to runit
[2022-10-01T15:23:40Z] <midfavila> bsd or bsd-style tools provide my system's bc and tar at the very least
[2022-10-01T15:23:47Z] <midfavila> gnu provides make, diffutils and patch
[2022-10-01T15:23:53Z] <wael[m]> midfavila: utilities like the ones sbase provides? if so what is the purpose of sbase
[2022-10-01T15:24:00Z] <testuser[m]> Idk I just started using it
[2022-10-01T15:24:03Z] <testuser[m]> Will know in some days
[2022-10-01T15:24:12Z] <midfavila> sbase and ubase provide the foundation for a unix userspace 
[2022-10-01T15:25:12Z] <wael[m]> hm
[2022-10-01T15:25:29Z] <midfavila> sbase and ubase don't include some of the more complex elements however
[2022-10-01T15:25:41Z] <midfavila> for example they don't include awk, or a shell, or yacc, etc
[2022-10-01T15:25:50Z] <midfavila> which is where the supplements come in
[2022-10-01T15:25:54Z] <wael[m]> and plan9 provides that?
[2022-10-01T15:26:01Z] <midfavila> no. plan 9 provides miscellany 
[2022-10-01T15:26:07Z] <midfavila> nothing essential to the system
[2022-10-01T15:26:19Z] <wael[m]> so what supplies the shell, awk, yacc, etc?
[2022-10-01T15:26:55Z] <midfavila> shell is dash, awk is the one true awk (descendent of the original awk), yacc is a berkeley package
[2022-10-01T15:27:03Z] <wael[m]> byacc?
[2022-10-01T15:27:06Z] <midfavila> yes
[2022-10-01T15:27:15Z] <wael[m]> what about bison?
[2022-10-01T15:27:16Z] <wael[m]> how would linux compile without bison
[2022-10-01T15:27:26Z] <midfavila> the system is not wholly self-hosting
[2022-10-01T15:27:31Z] <midfavila> (that repo is also slightly out of date)
[2022-10-01T15:27:38Z] <wael[m]> wholly?
[2022-10-01T15:27:51Z] <midfavila> in something's entirety
[2022-10-01T15:28:02Z] <midfavila> the base system cannot compile every element of the base system
[2022-10-01T15:28:13Z] <midfavila> specifically, util-linux, musl and the kernel cannot be built
[2022-10-01T15:28:18Z] <wael[m]> thats weird 
[2022-10-01T15:28:19Z] <midfavila> this is a consequence of not using tcc
[2022-10-01T15:28:23Z] <midfavila> s/tcc/gcc/
[2022-10-01T15:28:31Z] <midfavila> (tcc is the development toolchain in use)
[2022-10-01T15:28:31Z] <wael[m]> ahhh ok makes sense
[2022-10-01T15:28:57Z] <wael[m]> so then how do you compile projects that need CMake, LLVM, meson, Rust, etc?
[2022-10-01T15:29:06Z] <midfavila> i don't :D
[2022-10-01T15:29:37Z] <midfavila> none of that software is relevant to me
[2022-10-01T15:29:39Z] <wael[m]> so interesting
[2022-10-01T15:29:45Z] <wael[m]> so then what is your browser then?
[2022-10-01T15:29:48Z] <midfavila> links
[2022-10-01T15:29:58Z] <midfavila> although I need to patch it to work with bearssl
[2022-10-01T15:30:04Z] <wael[m]> what about elinks?
[2022-10-01T15:30:23Z] <midfavila> using a terminal to run a text browser when the browser has a graphics mode is less efficient
[2022-10-01T15:30:32Z] <midfavila> by a considerable degree
[2022-10-01T15:30:47Z] <wael[m]> btw testuser : i wanted to ask, why is Flatpak reliant on util-linux?
[2022-10-01T15:30:51Z] <wael[m]> midfavila: so links can be GUI?
[2022-10-01T15:30:55Z] <midfavila> yes
[2022-10-01T15:31:02Z] <midfavila> (i also just don't see a reason to use elinks)
[2022-10-01T15:31:07Z] <wael[m]> howww???
[2022-10-01T15:31:11Z] <midfavila> links -g
[2022-10-01T15:31:25Z] <wael[m]> oh wait is it link2 or just links
[2022-10-01T15:31:29Z] <midfavila> links2
[2022-10-01T15:31:39Z] <wael[m]> theres links2-mod in your repo
[2022-10-01T15:31:48Z] <wael[m]> the one in Community repo is the OG links?
[2022-10-01T15:31:48Z] <midfavila> links2-mod includes a patch to add xembed support
[2022-10-01T15:31:55Z] <midfavila> so that it can be used with tabbed
[2022-10-01T15:32:13Z] <wael[m]> also links2-mod is in mbase which literally is empty 
[2022-10-01T15:32:28Z] <midfavila> yes, most of the files there are either symlinks or touch'd
[2022-10-01T15:32:31Z] <wael[m]> nvm found it
[2022-10-01T15:32:41Z] <midfavila> the only reason they're there is so I can cd mbase;kiss b *
[2022-10-01T15:33:24Z] <wael[m]> also, what provides /bin/curl for you?
[2022-10-01T15:33:33Z] <midfavila> nothing
[2022-10-01T15:33:37Z] <midfavila> i don't use curl
[2022-10-01T15:33:42Z] <wael[m]> wait what
[2022-10-01T15:33:46Z] <wael[m]> WH
[2022-10-01T15:33:47Z] <wael[m]> what do you use then
[2022-10-01T15:33:51Z] <midfavila> axel
[2022-10-01T15:34:14Z] <midfavila> i'm also working (slowly) on writing my own barebones http client to replace axel/curl/wget/whatever
[2022-10-01T15:34:34Z] <wael[m]> also weird links -g gives me BadDrawable X11 error
[2022-10-01T15:34:37Z] <midfavila> (the system can't build axel at the moment so I'm relying on a statically-linked binary from another machine)
[2022-10-01T15:34:44Z] <midfavila> links-mod's patch is kind of wonky
[2022-10-01T15:34:49Z] <midfavila> the dude who wrote it was in a hurry
[2022-10-01T15:34:55Z] <midfavila> you need to open it in a tabbed instance
[2022-10-01T15:34:55Z] <wael[m]> theres hurl
[2022-10-01T15:34:59Z] <wael[m]> which aims to replace curl
[2022-10-01T15:35:03Z] <wael[m]> midfavila: aw wt ok
[2022-10-01T15:35:05Z] <midfavila> i don't want a curl replacement
[2022-10-01T15:35:13Z] <midfavila> nor do i want someone else's software
[2022-10-01T15:35:20Z] <wael[m]> damn
[2022-10-01T15:35:30Z] <wael[m]> so when are you going to make midkernel
[2022-10-01T15:35:30Z] <midfavila> eventually I hope to run almost or entirely my own code
[2022-10-01T15:35:37Z] <midfavila> once I have midutils and midgui
[2022-10-01T15:35:44Z] <midfavila> both of which are planned
[2022-10-01T15:36:31Z] <midfavila> i *will* spend all of my time writing obscure shitty software, i will *not* program for a corporation, i will *not* be a wagie, i *will* become increasingly paranoid and schizophrenic
[2022-10-01T15:36:42Z] <wael[m]> you are so mid
[2022-10-01T15:36:59Z] <midfavila> thank you uwu
[2022-10-01T15:37:16Z] <wael[m]> also does links in gui mode just not be able to preview images
[2022-10-01T15:37:31Z] <midfavila> links in gui mode requires libpng but no other image libraries by default
[2022-10-01T15:37:40Z] <midfavila> check the buildfile, i might have disabled image support mostly
[2022-10-01T15:37:41Z] <wael[m]> i have libpng already
[2022-10-01T15:37:50Z] <wael[m]> i dont believe you have
[2022-10-01T15:37:56Z] <wael[m]> i dont see --without-libpng
[2022-10-01T15:38:01Z] <midfavila> then idk what to tell you
[2022-10-01T15:38:04Z] <midfavila> werks on my machine
[2022-10-01T15:38:20Z] <wael[m]> well tbf links is like very unusable for what i do lol
[2022-10-01T15:38:29Z] * midfavila shrugs
[2022-10-01T15:38:39Z] <wael[m]> i am probably the most bloated kiss user at the moment
[2022-10-01T15:38:43Z] <midfavila> i don't really use the web much
[2022-10-01T15:39:03Z] <midfavila> most of what i do do (downloading music and reading plaintext) links handles adequately
[2022-10-01T15:39:10Z] <midfavila> browsing invidious via links is quite comfy
[2022-10-01T15:39:22Z] <wael[m]> which is exported to mpv right? RIGHT??
[2022-10-01T15:39:30Z] <midfavila> no, why would i use mpv
[2022-10-01T15:39:37Z] <midfavila> i use ffplay
[2022-10-01T15:39:41Z] <wael[m]> does links have its own fucking video player
[2022-10-01T15:39:44Z] <midfavila> no
[2022-10-01T15:39:45Z] <wael[m]> oh
[2022-10-01T15:39:53Z] <wael[m]> i use mpv because ffplay just does not render shit
[2022-10-01T15:40:06Z] <midfavila> haven't experienced that
[2022-10-01T15:40:45Z] <wael[m]> also ffplay does need sdl2 so
[2022-10-01T15:41:07Z] <midfavila> and mpv doesn't?
[2022-10-01T15:41:16Z] <wael[m]> um yeah
[2022-10-01T15:41:26Z] <midfavila> interesting, i thought it did
[2022-10-01T15:41:54Z] <wael[m]> ffplay does use sdl2 as backend 
[2022-10-01T15:41:54Z] <wael[m]> i believe
[2022-10-01T15:42:16Z] <midfavila> it appears to link to it
[2022-10-01T15:42:38Z] <wael[m]> ffmpeg automatically installs ffplay when sdl2 is present
[2022-10-01T15:42:43Z] <wael[m]> as ffplay relies on it for backend
[2022-10-01T15:43:03Z] <midfavila> http://0x0.st/o4UE.png
[2022-10-01T15:43:08Z] <midfavila> this is my desktop machine, if you were curious
[2022-10-01T15:43:21Z] <midfavila> it runs an older version of my distro so it's not quite as minimal as what I was describing
[2022-10-01T15:43:23Z] <wael[m]> what fucking year are you in right now
[2022-10-01T15:43:31Z] <midfavila> current year
[2022-10-01T15:43:37Z] <wael[m]> which is??!?!!?
[2022-10-01T15:43:45Z] <midfavila> 1986 obviously
[2022-10-01T15:44:02Z] <wael[m]> bro
[2022-10-01T15:44:15Z] <wael[m]> anyway using the same video ffplay just does black
[2022-10-01T15:44:19Z] <wael[m]> displays audio but no video
[2022-10-01T15:44:48Z] <midfavila> hit w
[2022-10-01T15:44:59Z] <wael[m]> nothing happens
[2022-10-01T15:45:01Z] <midfavila> hit it again
[2022-10-01T15:45:05Z] <wael[m]> I AM
[2022-10-01T15:45:09Z] <midfavila> rip
[2022-10-01T15:45:11Z] <midfavila> dunno what to tell you then
[2022-10-01T15:45:16Z] <wael[m]> WNTO HTGIGN TNOTHING IS HAPPENING
[2022-10-01T15:45:25Z] <midfavila> relax my dude.
[2022-10-01T15:45:26Z] <wael[m]> cant use ffplay smh
[2022-10-01T15:45:29Z] <wael[m]> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
[2022-10-01T15:45:33Z] <midfavila> https://inv.riverside.rocks/watch?v=939w8RwaLSY
[2022-10-01T15:45:54Z] <midfavila> ^song of the day suggestion
[2022-10-01T15:46:39Z] <midfavila> anyway if you think my setup looks ancient just wait until i start developing gui programs
[2022-10-01T15:46:43Z] <midfavila> i'm dedicated to using only athena
[2022-10-01T15:46:48Z] <wael[m]> whats a athena
[2022-10-01T15:46:55Z] <midfavila> the standard x11 toolkit
[2022-10-01T15:46:58Z] <midfavila> also called xaw
[2022-10-01T15:47:01Z] <midfavila> the x athena widgets
[2022-10-01T15:47:05Z] <wael[m]> the font in your setup is the only thing keeping your setup modern
[2022-10-01T15:47:15Z] <midfavila> not for long :D
[2022-10-01T15:47:23Z] <midfavila> new distro release doesn't support scalable fonts
[2022-10-01T15:47:24Z] <wael[m]> what are you going to switch to
[2022-10-01T15:47:34Z] <midfavila> leggie probably
[2022-10-01T15:47:49Z] <midfavila> pronounced ledgie
[2022-10-01T15:48:51Z] <midfavila> just wait until i revert to using an 80486
[2022-10-01T15:49:08Z] <testuser[m]> wael: sdl2 update broke tons of configurations which included nvidia systems
[2022-10-01T15:49:16Z] <testuser[m]> apply patch from grepo nvidia overrides
[2022-10-01T15:49:26Z] <wael[m]> could that be why ffplay is broken?
[2022-10-01T15:49:29Z] <testuser[m]> obv 
[2022-10-01T15:49:35Z] <wael[m]> omw
[2022-10-01T15:49:54Z] <midfavila> i'll need to get some CRTs if I want to switch actually, hrm
[2022-10-01T15:49:56Z] <testuser[m]> Apply as in revert
[2022-10-01T15:50:02Z] <midfavila> my current displays are perhaps overkill
[2022-10-01T15:50:19Z] <wael[m]> testuser: add-av_stream_get_first_dts-for-chromium.patch
[2022-10-01T15:50:19Z] <wael[m]> ?
[2022-10-01T15:50:28Z] <testuser[m]> bruh
[2022-10-01T15:50:30Z] <testuser[m]> sdl patch
[2022-10-01T15:50:33Z] <testuser[m]> not ffmpeg
[2022-10-01T15:50:35Z] <wael[m]> oh
[2022-10-01T15:51:13Z] <testuser[m]> midfavila: what if you want to access a js infested site
[2022-10-01T15:51:26Z] <midfavila> testuser[m] i don't want to 
[2022-10-01T15:51:47Z] <midfavila> in the very unusual case i absolutely *have* to, my desktop has a fork of pale moon installed
[2022-10-01T15:52:19Z] <midfavila> i actually have it open in the screenshot i posted
[2022-10-01T15:52:22Z] <midfavila> just minimized
[2022-10-01T15:52:45Z] <wael[m]> how do you live
[2022-10-01T15:52:48Z] <wael[m]> do you just live in a seperate universe or something
[2022-10-01T15:52:54Z] <wael[m]> where you dont live in a world like ours
[2022-10-01T15:53:03Z] <midfavila> no
[2022-10-01T15:53:16Z] <midfavila> i just don't do the sorts of things most people do
[2022-10-01T15:53:20Z] <midfavila> whether for work or pleasure
[2022-10-01T15:54:46Z] <testuser[m]> What if some govt site
[2022-10-01T15:54:57Z] <midfavila> the government can deal with me in person
[2022-10-01T15:56:14Z] <testuser[m]> Video call or something
[2022-10-01T15:56:51Z] <midfavila> i don't own a video camera
[2022-10-01T16:01:17Z] <midfavila> and, anyway, even if I did, it would probably require I use some sort of proprietary software - I'm at the point where I'm willing to be a bit of a pariah to avoid that
[2022-10-01T16:02:45Z] <testuser[m]> U had a blackberry or someth phone running linux right
[2022-10-01T16:02:46Z] <testuser[m]> Idk
[2022-10-01T16:03:00Z] <midfavila> i use an old blackberry as my primary phone, yes
[2022-10-01T16:03:12Z] <midfavila> unfortunately there are no providers of landline service in my area
[2022-10-01T16:03:18Z] <midfavila> otherwise i would continue to use my rotary telephone
[2022-10-01T16:03:33Z] <testuser[m]> U ever need to use location services
[2022-10-01T16:03:45Z] <midfavila> if i do, i download a map onto my tablet or print it out
[2022-10-01T16:03:51Z] <midfavila> if i get lost, i just ask someone for directions
[2022-10-01T16:03:53Z] * midfavila shrugs
[2022-10-01T16:03:55Z] <testuser[m]> What tablet
[2022-10-01T16:04:00Z] <midfavila> pinenote
[2022-10-01T16:04:06Z] <testuser[m]> hmmmm
[2022-10-01T16:04:25Z] <midfavila> runs almost stock AOSP and i'm going to be installing linux on it as soon as that's possible
[2022-10-01T16:14:50Z] <phoebos> gavin-bc is the basis for most bc/dcs including busybox's bigger version
[2022-10-01T16:15:05Z] <midfavila> makes sense
[2022-10-01T16:15:08Z] <midfavila> it's a pretty swell program
[2022-10-01T16:16:39Z] <midfavila> i'm pretty excited to learn about metacompilers and stuff so that I can write my own bc and friends
[2022-10-01T16:16:55Z] <midfavila> could write a parser by hand but that's far beyond me for anything complex
[2022-10-01T16:19:04Z] <phoebos> mid, do you ever consider just trying to implement something using methods you already know, rather than learning a "better" method first 
[2022-10-01T16:19:53Z] <midfavila> yes, I do
[2022-10-01T16:20:12Z] <midfavila> if you want the honest answer, whenever I do that I end up feeling like a piece of shit afterward
[2022-10-01T16:20:41Z] <midfavila> because it inevitably turns out to be of hilariously low quality
[2022-10-01T16:20:44Z] * midfavila shrugs
[2022-10-01T16:21:53Z] <phoebos> lol
[2022-10-01T16:22:05Z] <midfavila> it's stupid but true
[2022-10-01T16:22:08Z] <phoebos> fair enough
[2022-10-01T16:22:38Z] <midfavila> i once spent an entire week freaking out over how to "properly" parse program parameters in C because ye olden getopt for-loop makes me feel dirty
[2022-10-01T16:23:08Z] <midfavila> (if you look at the screenshot from earlier you'll notice that I eventually learned to cope with that)
[2022-10-01T16:26:08Z] <phoebos> i use while with getopt
[2022-10-01T16:26:12Z] <phoebos> are you still on fvwm?
[2022-10-01T16:26:21Z] <midfavila> i haven't used fvwm in at least a year
[2022-10-01T16:26:23Z] <midfavila> i'm using twm
[2022-10-01T16:26:27Z] <phoebos> ah nice
[2022-10-01T16:26:32Z] <midfavila> phoebos, i avoid while on principle
[2022-10-01T16:26:55Z] <midfavila> perhaps a bit less efficient and silly, but there have been a number of subtle off-by-ones that i experience using whiles
[2022-10-01T16:27:02Z] <phoebos> it's just a simpler version of for
[2022-10-01T16:27:06Z] <midfavila> then again, the compiler probably optimizes any differences away
[2022-10-01T16:27:15Z] <phoebos> but why do you need an incrementing variable during getopt parsing
[2022-10-01T16:27:20Z] <midfavila> you don't
[2022-10-01T16:27:33Z] <phoebos> > i++
[2022-10-01T16:27:37Z] <phoebos> in your code
[2022-10-01T16:27:41Z] <midfavila> yes, technically you don't
[2022-10-01T16:27:45Z] <midfavila> i'm just fucking around right now
[2022-10-01T16:27:48Z] <phoebos> ok
[2022-10-01T16:27:58Z] <midfavila> been a while since i've used optarg so i forgot that optind is a thing
[2022-10-01T16:28:37Z] <midfavila> originally the idea was to increment i with each to keep track of the argv, but a) that wouldn't work and b) optind renders that redundant
[2022-10-01T16:28:44Z] <phoebos> > i'm dedicated to using only athena
[2022-10-01T16:28:48Z] <phoebos> friendship ended with motif?
[2022-10-01T16:28:53Z] <midfavila> yes
[2022-10-01T16:29:00Z] <phoebos> why
[2022-10-01T16:29:07Z] <midfavila> motif is perhaps the only software package that suffers from over documentation
[2022-10-01T16:29:17Z] <midfavila> and it also doesn't build on the new version of my distro
[2022-10-01T16:29:26Z] <midfavila> so unless i can get it to, I'm not going to bother with motif
[2022-10-01T16:29:45Z] <phoebos> ok. i stopped writing for athena because it's a pita
[2022-10-01T16:29:53Z] <midfavila> yes, it seems to be that way
[2022-10-01T16:30:00Z] <midfavila> two questions since you have experience with it
[2022-10-01T16:30:01Z] <phoebos> motif is less so
[2022-10-01T16:30:07Z] <midfavila> 1) do you have any useful docs 
[2022-10-01T16:30:11Z] <midfavila> 2) can I see your programs
[2022-10-01T16:30:19Z] <midfavila> there's painfully little to reference to learn athena
[2022-10-01T16:30:22Z] <phoebos> err, "experience"
[2022-10-01T16:30:30Z] <midfavila> you've presumably written more than i have
[2022-10-01T16:30:37Z] <midfavila> which is very, very little
[2022-10-01T16:30:43Z] <phoebos> i think i've posted links to what i used as docs, it was mostly the xorg docs
[2022-10-01T16:30:48Z] <phoebos> which are woefully incomplete
[2022-10-01T16:30:50Z] <midfavila> yeah that's what i figured
[2022-10-01T16:30:52Z] <midfavila> . _.
[2022-10-01T16:31:17Z] <phoebos> let me see if i can find any of the code i wrote
[2022-10-01T16:31:22Z] <midfavila> that would be awesome
[2022-10-01T16:31:24Z] <midfavila> brb my soup is done
[2022-10-01T16:33:29Z] <phoebos> https://tmp.bvnf.space/main.c
[2022-10-01T16:33:38Z] <phoebos> https://tmp.bvnf.space/text.c
[2022-10-01T16:33:55Z] <phoebos> the text widgets are horrible
[2022-10-01T16:34:06Z] <phoebos> that's about as far as i got before giving up
[2022-10-01T16:34:23Z] <phoebos> the plan was to make a little irc client
[2022-10-01T16:34:47Z] <phoebos> window at the bottom to type in, press enter and it's sent, history displayed in the middle
[2022-10-01T16:35:48Z] <phoebos> but athena runs callbacks in strange orders which made it hard to get the text from the bottom box to the middle
[2022-10-01T16:37:09Z] <phoebos> by the way, the widget in XawTextReplace has to be the parent of the textSource, not the source itself. otherwise it just segfaults
[2022-10-01T16:37:14Z] <phoebos> documented *nowhere*
[2022-10-01T16:37:20Z] <phoebos> not even in the source
[2022-10-01T16:37:44Z] <phoebos> i'd imagine there's a lot of stuff like that
[2022-10-01T16:52:10Z] <midfavila> i was also planning on making an athena irc client
[2022-10-01T16:52:14Z] <midfavila> perhaps i should reconsider...
[2022-10-01T16:52:53Z] <midfavila> you're clearly a much better programmer than I, and if you're having trouble with it, I would likely struggle
[2022-10-01T16:54:58Z] <midfavila> the lack of available information also doesn't help... hrm
[2022-10-01T16:55:05Z] <phoebos> you're a lot more persistent than i am
[2022-10-01T16:55:20Z] <midfavila> perhaps
[2022-10-01T16:56:04Z] <midfavila> that reminds me, i need to submit a patch for Xaw
[2022-10-01T16:56:20Z] <midfavila> there's a malformed function call in its codebase
[2022-10-01T16:56:31Z] <midfavila> can't remember specifically where, think it was the scrollbar routines
[2022-10-01T16:56:40Z] <midfavila> one of the callbacks is given one parameter instead of the required two
[2022-10-01T16:57:09Z] <midfavila> it's in most (all?) xaw forks I've looked at too
[2022-10-01T16:59:18Z] <midfavila> clearly, we need a final solution to the toolkit problem
[2022-10-01T16:59:27Z] <midfavila> some kind of ubertoolkit
[2022-10-01T16:59:34Z] * midfavila hrmmms
[2022-10-01T17:00:00Z] <midfavila> if I had my way I wouldn't even use X
[2022-10-01T17:00:05Z] <midfavila> MGR is much more appealing
[2022-10-01T17:03:30Z] <midfavila> hundreds of thousands of lines of code versus like 60k
[2022-10-01T17:03:32Z] <midfavila> pretty easy choice
[2022-10-01T17:04:21Z] <phoebos> MGR?
[2022-10-01T17:04:38Z] <midfavila> ManaGeR
[2022-10-01T17:04:44Z] <midfavila> a windowing system from Bellcore
[2022-10-01T17:04:46Z] <midfavila> originated in the 80s
[2022-10-01T17:05:11Z] <midfavila> it's been described thusly: "MGR is to X as UNIX is to MULTICS"
[2022-10-01T17:05:32Z] <midfavila> like X, it's also network-transparent. unlike X, it doesn't try to be as flexible as possible
[2022-10-01T17:05:54Z] <midfavila> from what I can glean from the available information, it's basically one step up from something like TWIN
[2022-10-01T17:06:32Z] <midfavila> https://hack.org/~mc/mgr/
[2022-10-01T17:06:41Z] <midfavila> this is the most authoritative site on it i've found
[2022-10-01T17:09:07Z] <midfavila> based on the contents of the screenshot on that site, it's fast enough to be usable on old Suns without acceleration 
[2022-10-01T17:09:17Z] <midfavila> so it should be *more* than usable on a modern machine using a generic framebuffer interface
[2022-10-01T17:09:56Z] <midfavila> main problem would be finding or creating a specification i think
[2022-10-01T17:50:06Z] <midfavila> man, I wish Links2 allowed you to pass links to other programs, instead of just data
[2022-10-01T17:50:22Z] <midfavila> match using regex or something
[2022-10-01T20:36:41Z] <phinxy> I can't remember in what directory scancode mapping is done.  Help.
[2022-10-01T20:37:20Z] <phinxy> I.e map Insert key to whatever else but also different Shift levels.
[2022-10-01T20:37:25Z] <sad_plan> o/
[2022-10-01T20:40:17Z] <midfavila> hello, sad_plan
[2022-10-01T20:40:56Z] <sad_plan> hey midfavila. how you doing?
[2022-10-01T20:41:00Z] <midfavila> doing okay
[2022-10-01T20:41:06Z] <midfavila> working on my coreutils on and off
[2022-10-01T20:41:25Z] <midfavila> only half-asleep today instead of three-quarters, so I'm actually able to kind of focus
[2022-10-01T20:41:41Z] <midfavila> you?
[2022-10-01T20:41:41Z] <phinxy> Found it; /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols
[2022-10-01T20:43:36Z] <sad_plan> I see. any good progress?
[2022-10-01T20:43:43Z] <midfavila> okay progress
[2022-10-01T20:43:49Z] <midfavila> haven't gotten anything impressive written
[2022-10-01T20:44:05Z] <midfavila> sleep is implemented now, and wc is just about done
[2022-10-01T20:44:09Z] <sad_plan> im good ig. been messing with oasis lately, and trying to figure out a sane way to combine kiss and oasis..
[2022-10-01T20:44:27Z] <midfavila> does oasis not use git as a package manager
[2022-10-01T20:44:38Z] <sad_plan> nice. maybe Ill check it out some time around. maybe I can learn something from it too.
[2022-10-01T20:44:55Z] <midfavila> i'd be pleased if anyone looked at my shitty programs lmao
[2022-10-01T20:44:58Z] <sad_plan> well.. its not really a package manager. its more of a config file, which gives a set of rules really
[2022-10-01T20:45:01Z] <midfavila> even better if you can somehow learn something from me
[2022-10-01T20:45:26Z] <midfavila> anyway, literal package manager or not, if it serves the practical role of a package manager then kiss immediately conflicts with it
[2022-10-01T20:45:32Z] <midfavila> considering... you know. kiss is nothing *but* a package manager
[2022-10-01T20:46:20Z] <sad_plan> lol, your knowledge has been good to me anyhow. seeing as youve successfully answered some of my questions :p I value that anyway
[2022-10-01T20:46:28Z] <sad_plan> it does
[2022-10-01T20:46:41Z] <sad_plan> oasis also *uses* pkgsrc, from netbsd
[2022-10-01T20:47:04Z] <sad_plan> which i suppose is fine, but their repo hasnt been updated since february. which isnt ideal imo..
[2022-10-01T20:47:24Z] <sad_plan> I also really like kiss for it simplicity in terms of packaging my own software
[2022-10-01T20:48:01Z] <midfavila> idk maybe you could hack something up in awk and shell to generate kiss packages from oasis config files
[2022-10-01T20:48:18Z] <midfavila> then use those to generate rootfses
[2022-10-01T20:48:19Z] * midfavila shrugs
[2022-10-01T20:51:15Z] <sad_plan> yeah, I was thinking about trying to use the oasis config file as far as I could. I suppose I could package more or less everything except the browser part. seeing as webkit i.e. or firefox is just not feasable to do that way..
[2022-10-01T20:52:28Z] <sad_plan> I just need to figure out how it worked. I did try to package fzy, just to try something simple, but ive yet to figure out how I was supposed to include the config.h file, which I needed. Ill look into it next week I suppose. ill be working late, and people might actually be online then :')
[2022-10-01T21:01:04Z] <joshsmt> Hello guys
[2022-10-01T21:01:40Z] <joshsmt> how can i install a specific package that has the same name as a package that is already in another repository?
[2022-10-01T21:02:07Z] <sad_plan> joshsmt: the same way you install every other package?
[2022-10-01T21:02:23Z] <sad_plan> just cd into its dir, and kiss b
[2022-10-01T21:02:26Z] <midfavila> you can cd into a directory and kiss b without an argument to forcibly build the package- yeah
[2022-10-01T21:02:37Z] <midfavila> i believe you can also provide a path to the specific package you want
[2022-10-01T21:02:47Z] <joshsmt> but when this package updates, will it update the other one?
[2022-10-01T21:02:59Z] <sad_plan> no, that doesnt actually work. ive tried that the other day.
[2022-10-01T21:03:25Z] <sad_plan> its updated when the repo which has the highest priority updates it
[2022-10-01T21:04:10Z] <joshsmt> to put a repository with high property, you just need to put it first, right?
[2022-10-01T21:05:01Z] <sad_plan> it just needs to be higher than the other one. or you could make a local repo, with only that package symlinked, and put that on top. essesntually just creating an override
[2022-10-01T21:05:27Z] <joshsmt> oh ok thx
[2022-10-01T21:05:45Z] <sad_plan> if you have repo1 and repo2, in you KISS_PATH, and you want pkg x from repo2 to be used, repo2 either has to be over repo1, or youd have to create a override like I said
[2022-10-01T21:05:46Z] <sad_plan> np
[2022-10-01T21:28:28Z] <phinxy> Is there a kbd package with loadkeys to generate binary keymaps?  
[2022-10-01T21:29:32Z] <phoebos> bkeymaps has some