💾 Archived View for gemini.ctrl-c.club › ~phoebos › logs › kisslinux-2021-08-25.txt captured on 2024-05-26 at 16:14:06.
⬅️ Previous capture (2021-12-17)
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[2021-08-25T00:29:21Z] <dilyn> https://github.com/dilyn-corner/KISS-me/commit/3e349d43141726215203baa938174e9a9d2b8235
[2021-08-25T00:29:51Z] <midfavila> are you running into issues building SDL2 with dash, dilyn?
[2021-08-25T00:30:27Z] <dilyn> with dash?
[2021-08-25T00:30:28Z] <dilyn> hmmm
[2021-08-25T00:30:44Z] <dilyn> ah, sdl2 requires gmake. what a rude question
[2021-08-25T00:31:02Z] <midfavila> recently I've run into trouble building it with dash on my systems, even using a canonical tarball
[2021-08-25T00:31:16Z] <midfavila> errors out about "configure" not being a program in PATH or something
[2021-08-25T00:31:26Z] <midfavila> it's been a while since I've checked but I figured I'd ask since you posted your system
[2021-08-25T00:31:37Z] <midfavila> oksh, mksh, yash, bash, etc as /bin/sh build it fine
[2021-08-25T00:32:48Z] <dilyn> builds fine with dash as sh
[2021-08-25T00:33:00Z] <dilyn> it errors during the build with that message? that seems wrong
[2021-08-25T00:33:07Z] <midfavila> yes, it's very wrong
[2021-08-25T00:33:19Z] <midfavila> i'll have to poke at it later this week when I have time now that I've been reminded of it
[2021-08-25T00:51:39Z] <kyxor> okay guys I tried. Now neatvi builds with %100 posix shell, no external tools except sh and compiler
[2021-08-25T00:51:41Z] <kyxor> https://github.com/kyx0r/neatvi/blob/master/build.sh
[2021-08-25T00:51:53Z] <kyxor> Is this better than non portable GNU makefile ?
[2021-08-25T00:52:10Z] <micro_O> phoebos care to elaborate? when i start a droplet i have to choose a starting OS or custom image
[2021-08-25T00:52:23Z] <midfavila> portable is immediately superior to non-portable
[2021-08-25T00:52:31Z] <kyxor> Is it possible to somehow do better job control in build.sh
[2021-08-25T00:53:13Z] <kyxor> cause the thing is wait -n does not work because apparently even though compiler exited, it does not mean files have been written yet
[2021-08-25T00:53:20Z] <phoebos> micro_O: https://bvnf.space/blog/001-this-server.txt -> DigitalOcean section
[2021-08-25T00:53:55Z] <phoebos> tldr: choose anything, then boot a recovery image and dd an img onto the harddisk
[2021-08-25T00:54:15Z] <phoebos> reboot; happiness
[2021-08-25T00:57:05Z] <kyxor> Like shell is so close to being a perfect build system but because of small nits and limitations it's not quite reaching what makefile can do (at least without using external progs)
[2021-08-25T00:59:01Z] <kyxor> maybe though some weird tricks that I don't know it's posible to do clever job control, but so far what I got seems to be the only workable thing
[2021-08-25T00:59:55Z] <kyxor> but again, something like clever file writing requires inotify, that requires linux, then it becomes not portable, sigh
[2021-08-25T01:00:37Z] <illiliti> why build.sh? why not posix makefile?
[2021-08-25T01:01:41Z] <phoebos> kyxor: nice work
[2021-08-25T01:01:41Z] <kyxor> cause idk how to do portable ifeq
[2021-08-25T01:02:00Z] <illiliti> why do you need ifeq?
[2021-08-25T01:02:15Z] <dilyn> mfw I didn't add gmake to zfs' depends :X ffs
[2021-08-25T01:02:36Z] <phoebos> what's the reasoning behind the case ${CC:-0} stuff, haven't you just done ${CC:=gcc} with extra steps
[2021-08-25T01:02:54Z] <kyxor> detect if it's compiling on BSD, so that I can append -D_BSD_SOURCE to CFLAGS
[2021-08-25T01:03:32Z] <illiliti> kyxor: you can do it directly in c source
[2021-08-25T01:03:36Z] <illiliti> #ifdef
[2021-08-25T01:03:46Z] <kyxor> I can, but I don't want to :)
[2021-08-25T01:03:52Z] <illiliti> why
[2021-08-25T01:04:39Z] <acheam> dilyn: aw 2 packages now?
[2021-08-25T01:04:58Z] <kyxor> I mean doing it once maybe not big deal, but I am sick of dealing with #ifdef mess in big projects, so in my projects I just don't want any build up of that
[2021-08-25T01:05:24Z] <kyxor> At least if i can avoid it somehow and move it to build system, that seems to make more sense
[2021-08-25T01:06:55Z] <kyxor> phoebos: idk maybe it is with extra steps, the idea was that if CC env variable is set, do nothing, else just default to gcc
[2021-08-25T01:07:09Z] <kyxor> I'll take a look
[2021-08-25T01:07:20Z] <phoebos> CC=${CC:-gcc}
[2021-08-25T01:07:30Z] <phoebos> ${CC:=gcc}
[2021-08-25T01:07:36Z] <kyxor> ok
[2021-08-25T01:07:51Z] <dilyn> acheam: just zfs now
[2021-08-25T01:08:10Z] <phoebos> actually : ${CC:=gcc}
[2021-08-25T01:08:23Z] <dilyn> toybox includes a make and install script that e5ten made sh with their patch
[2021-08-25T01:09:04Z] <illiliti> kyxor: such simple #ifdef isn't mess
[2021-08-25T01:09:11Z] <illiliti> just create ifdefs.h, do all #ifdefs there and include this file where needed
[2021-08-25T01:09:28Z] <illiliti> simple, portable
[2021-08-25T01:09:45Z] <kyxor> I don't like files :)
[2021-08-25T01:11:29Z] <illiliti> i don't like life either :)
[2021-08-25T01:11:44Z] <kyxor> I hate big projects with 1000s of files, mess. Project should have no more than 10 files, and oh if it's very big I don't mind having all 100K LOC in one file. I've got tcc compiler in that case to speed compilations up
[2021-08-25T01:12:06Z] <kyxor> Afterall my text editor does not care about how big the file is
[2021-08-25T01:12:36Z] <kyxor> meaning it does not slow down with file size, opening files is always instant unlike vim
[2021-08-25T01:14:36Z] <kyxor> Like tcc can compile almaga source of sqlite which is one C file, and 400K lines of C, under 2 seconds on mid tier cpu
[2021-08-25T01:16:16Z] <kyxor> See how shitty compilers force developers to make a lot of files, otherwise they can't use all their cores for compilations. But in reality bad design, promotes even more bad design at a core
[2021-08-25T01:16:29Z] <illiliti> the build.sh approach is even more messy because you don't follow established practices
[2021-08-25T01:16:34Z] <illiliti> just don't reinvent the wheel plz
[2021-08-25T01:17:22Z] <kyxor> then guess what, shitty build systems cause people to make even worse decisons like cmake, etc etc
[2021-08-25T01:17:40Z] <micro_O> phoebos thank you!
[2021-08-25T01:17:43Z] <konimex> something something "you don't use wheels invented in 1200s either"
[2021-08-25T01:18:06Z] <kyxor> illiliti build.sh is better the configure and auto* hell
[2021-08-25T01:19:39Z] <kyxor> Is it better than makefile? Well maybe, depends on the preferance. But it's simple at the core, if it's simple then I see no problem :/
[2021-08-25T01:20:59Z] <illiliti> posix make is better
[2021-08-25T01:21:05Z] <illiliti> barebones ninjafile is good too
[2021-08-25T01:24:52Z] <kyxor> Ok, illiliti: testuser told me you know how to do ifeq in posix make?
[2021-08-25T01:25:27Z] <kyxor> I don't under stand, but from what I saw it was mess with dummy targets and what not
[2021-08-25T01:25:36Z] <illiliti> ifeq isn't posix
[2021-08-25T01:25:39Z] <illiliti> https://www.austingroupbugs.net/view.php?id=805
[2021-08-25T01:26:05Z] <illiliti> there's no conditionals in posix make
[2021-08-25T01:26:08Z] <illiliti> yet
[2021-08-25T01:26:11Z] <kyxor> exactly
[2021-08-25T01:26:41Z] <kyxor> well I could achieve a condition if I run sh -c "condition" from makefile I think
[2021-08-25T01:28:13Z] <kyxor> Also I remeber there was some kind of program from the "Obfustaed programs contest" that could call a bunch of stuff from within itself, so that it could be make,shell and some other langs at the same time
[2021-08-25T01:28:45Z] <illiliti> sh -c 'condition' works only in terms of single make rule
[2021-08-25T01:29:25Z] <kyxor> Maybe the trick that was used on that contest might be useful somehow
[2021-08-25T01:29:30Z] <illiliti> you can't control Makefile flow with it
[2021-08-25T01:33:58Z] <kyxor> god I love that contest, I should participate in the next one
[2021-08-25T01:34:22Z] <kyxor> like just the amount of creativity from those hackers
[2021-08-25T01:44:03Z] <kyxor> Well for now I'll just keep rolling with the build.sh change, yes it seems cringe, non standard, weird way to compile C, but it's functional and portable so why not
[2021-08-25T01:44:58Z] <illiliti> did you consider using redo?
[2021-08-25T01:45:28Z] <illiliti> it's way better than home-grown build system but less portable
[2021-08-25T01:45:44Z] <illiliti> https://github.com/leahneukirchen/redo-c
[2021-08-25T01:46:57Z] <kyxor> I've heard about it. Don't know if it's worth
[2021-08-25T01:47:14Z] <kyxor> Overall people at suckless said good things about it though
[2021-08-25T01:51:59Z] <phoebos> kyxor: i made some changes to your build.sh: https://tmp.bvnf.space/0001-build.sh-cleanup.patch
[2021-08-25T01:52:36Z] <phoebos> it's up to you what build system you use, but i think this cleans up the shell script
[2021-08-25T01:53:20Z] <phoebos> it also sets ERREXIT which is important if the compilation fails
[2021-08-25T01:54:31Z] <kyxor> Nice!
[2021-08-25T01:55:40Z] <kyxor> Though It does not do parallel build
[2021-08-25T01:55:52Z] <phoebos> with neatvi that's really unnecessary
[2021-08-25T01:56:04Z] <midfavila> ^
[2021-08-25T01:56:14Z] <phoebos> and you were waiting a second for each obj file not built
[2021-08-25T01:56:14Z] <midfavila> parallel build only really helps with gargantuan projects
[2021-08-25T01:56:21Z] <kyxor> true
[2021-08-25T01:56:26Z] <phoebos> so you were literally adding a couple seconds off the bat
[2021-08-25T01:56:47Z] <kyxor> yeah
[2021-08-25T01:57:02Z] <phoebos> cmd & is great but there's no way to tell when it's finished
[2021-08-25T01:57:25Z] <phoebos> i also changed the function names so that there's more traditional syntax: ./build.sh install; ./build.sh clean
[2021-08-25T01:57:43Z] <midfavila> I really need to polish my shell scripting skills... hopefully working through Programming in the Unix Environment will help with that.
[2021-08-25T01:58:02Z] <phoebos> midfavila: how's your progress with all the books going?
[2021-08-25T01:58:10Z] <kyxor> ha ha, I called them with 3 letters so it's easier to type on cmdline, but no big deal
[2021-08-25T01:58:19Z] <midfavila> I keep heaping more work on myself without finishing what I already have xwx
[2021-08-25T01:58:21Z] <midfavila> we're up to like
[2021-08-25T01:58:23Z] <midfavila> sixteen textbooks
[2021-08-25T01:58:31Z] <midfavila> and counting
[2021-08-25T01:58:32Z] <phoebos> omfg
[2021-08-25T01:58:58Z] <kyxor> ^
[2021-08-25T01:59:10Z] <phoebos> i keep starting projects without finishing too
[2021-08-25T01:59:36Z] <phoebos> but mostly i spend all the time on stuff like I/O and not writing the actual program
[2021-08-25T01:59:45Z] <phoebos> maybe i should write a libphoebos
[2021-08-25T02:00:10Z] <kyxor> ok phoebos: your patch looks reasonable, I'll apply it now
[2021-08-25T02:00:20Z] <phoebos> cool
[2021-08-25T02:00:32Z] <midfavila> The C Programming Language 2nd Ed., Modern C, C Programming: A Modern Approach, Learn C the Hard Way, Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, How to Design Programs, Introduction to Common Lisp, Practical Common Lisp, Operating Systems Design and Implementation 3rd, C++ Primer, The C++ Programming Language, Programming in the Unix Environment, Advanced Programming in the Unix Environment, Software Design for Flexibility...
[2021-08-25T02:00:33Z] <midfavila> uh...
[2021-08-25T02:00:34Z] <phoebos> git am it and i get brownie points :)
[2021-08-25T02:00:57Z] <phoebos> how far have you actually got through most of those?
[2021-08-25T02:00:58Z] <midfavila> ...oh, I forgot The Art of Unix Programming
[2021-08-25T02:01:08Z] <midfavila> and so far I haven't touched them. I'm focusing on mathematics
[2021-08-25T02:01:29Z] <midfavila> in the past month I've finished about three semesters worth of maths. I really need to correct my shitty high school education
[2021-08-25T02:01:46Z] <noocsharp> "Practical Common Lisp" is an oxymoron
[2021-08-25T02:02:01Z] <midfavila> algebra 1 is just about done, then it's on to geometry, algebra 2, stats and prob, precalc...
[2021-08-25T02:02:47Z] <midfavila> once that's done I'm gonna start working through OSSU
[2021-08-25T02:03:06Z] <midfavila> somewhere in there I need to finish college and find a placement
[2021-08-25T02:03:13Z] <phoebos> kyxor: hang on, i didn't pull your most recent commit
[2021-08-25T02:04:16Z] <phoebos> https://tmp.bvnf.space/0002-build.sh-cleanup.patch
[2021-08-25T02:04:25Z] <midfavila> (actually, I lied about not touching any of those books: I've gotten about halfway through K&R, although I haven't touched it since fucking my hand up pretty bad about a month ago. Gonna start again on Thursday. Did some work on SICP and HtDP too, as well as PCL)
[2021-08-25T02:04:27Z] <phoebos> that should git am cleanly
[2021-08-25T02:05:39Z] <phoebos> i got a physical copy of K&R the other day
[2021-08-25T02:06:09Z] <midfavila> also noocsharp there's nothing oxymoronic about practical and common lisp. it's just not a widely-used language so it lacks the extensive libraries of C or Python
[2021-08-25T02:06:15Z] <midfavila> phoebos first or second?
[2021-08-25T02:06:28Z] <phoebos> 2nd
[2021-08-25T02:06:38Z] <midfavila> based and mcgraw hill-pilled
[2021-08-25T02:06:57Z] <phoebos> is there any reason to prefer the 1st edition
[2021-08-25T02:07:04Z] <midfavila> i bought a physical copy from my local bookstore a couple months back... but they charged me 100 fucking dollars
[2021-08-25T02:07:05Z] <midfavila> also
[2021-08-25T02:07:06Z] <midfavila> no
[2021-08-25T02:07:12Z] <midfavila> 2nd is already a bit long in the tooth
[2021-08-25T02:07:18Z] <midfavila> 1st is only of historical interest
[2021-08-25T02:07:28Z] <phoebos> jesus
[2021-08-25T02:07:30Z] <midfavila> i don't even think K&R C can be compiled by modern systems...
[2021-08-25T02:07:46Z] <midfavila> i mean, C79 wasn't even standardized, afaik
[2021-08-25T02:08:04Z] <phoebos> for most stuff they can, just give warnings
[2021-08-25T02:08:40Z] <midfavila> huh
[2021-08-25T02:08:54Z] <midfavila> but yeah, that's why I have a bunch of additional "lern 2 c" berks
[2021-08-25T02:08:54Z] <phoebos> like omitting types default to int
[2021-08-25T02:09:00Z] <kyxor> phoebos: that's fine I force pushed
[2021-08-25T02:09:20Z] <phoebos> ew
[2021-08-25T02:09:38Z] <kyxor> I was wondering how to apply a patch like that, so that the commit inherits your data at the top
[2021-08-25T02:09:56Z] <midfavila> K&R for C89, CP: A Modern Approach for C99, Modern C for C11, and Learn C the Hard Way teaches a bunch of general stuff, in addition to rounding out my knowledge. After those and some projects I should be at least competent with C, if not amazing
[2021-08-25T02:10:11Z] <phoebos> kyxor: `git am file.patch`
[2021-08-25T02:10:40Z] <kyxor> ok I'll try
[2021-08-25T02:11:04Z] <kyxor> I'll just force push it again if it works
[2021-08-25T02:11:43Z] <phoebos> lol coolio
[2021-08-25T02:14:48Z] <midfavila> oh, by the by - would any of you be interested in a suckless-style replacement of the net-tools and inetutils?
[2021-08-25T02:15:00Z] <midfavila> i've been thinking of adding that to my list of personal projects.
[2021-08-25T02:15:10Z] <phoebos> kyxor: brilliant!
[2021-08-25T02:15:18Z] <phoebos> what do you mean by suckless-style
[2021-08-25T02:15:40Z] <midfavila> similar in spirit to s/u/9base, in that they implement the bare minimum to satisfy posix
[2021-08-25T02:15:55Z] <midfavila> i figure that in the case of a lack of POSIX or SUS to reference, it would be the minimum needed for comfortable daily use
[2021-08-25T02:16:11Z] <phoebos> yeah sounds nice
[2021-08-25T02:16:29Z] <midfavila> one of my long-term goals is to have my own SUS-compliant userspace
[2021-08-25T02:16:52Z] <phoebos> i'm planning on either writing my own POSIX-exactly coreutils, or supplementing k9core
[2021-08-25T02:16:58Z] <midfavila> k9core?
[2021-08-25T02:17:20Z] <phoebos> https://git.bvnf.space/k9core is my fork/mirror
[2021-08-25T02:17:30Z] <phoebos> or https://github.com/qorg11/k9core
[2021-08-25T02:17:41Z] <phoebos> if you don't mind the shithub
[2021-08-25T02:17:53Z] <midfavila> so what's the elevator pitch for k9core?
[2021-08-25T02:17:55Z] <midfavila> what makes it special?
[2021-08-25T02:18:19Z] <dilyn> hey looky my go patch made it into 1.17!
[2021-08-25T02:18:23Z] <dilyn> now we can drop our sed :)
[2021-08-25T02:18:33Z] <midfavila> >go
[2021-08-25T02:18:39Z] <midfavila> is this how far kiss has fallen in my absence
[2021-08-25T02:18:44Z] <acheam> hi midfavila
[2021-08-25T02:18:47Z] <phoebos> stupidly simple, like the code makes sense without worrying too much about performance
[2021-08-25T02:18:50Z] <phoebos> imho
[2021-08-25T02:18:55Z] <midfavila> hi acheam. the bayonet is doing fine.
[2021-08-25T02:19:20Z] <dilyn> >go
[2021-08-25T02:19:26Z] <dilyn> >in repo since 2019
[2021-08-25T02:19:28Z] <dilyn> mfw
[2021-08-25T02:19:38Z] <midfavila> phoebos that sounds nice. my list of priorities for my own programs is correctness, mechanical simplicity, then security and finally performance
[2021-08-25T02:19:46Z] <midfavila> basically I want my programs to be digital bricks.
[2021-08-25T02:19:58Z] <phoebos> aye. i'm on a similar page
[2021-08-25T02:19:59Z] <midfavila> rock-solid, stupidly simple and impossible to fuck up if used for its intended purpose
[2021-08-25T02:20:42Z] <phoebos> most of k9core is just a wrapper around one library function
[2021-08-25T02:20:46Z] <acheam> dilyn: is that the musl only exists on alpine one?
[2021-08-25T02:20:46Z] <midfavila> huh
[2021-08-25T02:21:43Z] <midfavila> hmmmm
[2021-08-25T02:21:50Z] <midfavila> can't say I'm a fan of their ls
[2021-08-25T02:22:07Z] <phoebos> i mean like eg unlink.c just calls unlink(3), touch calls creat
[2021-08-25T02:22:21Z] <midfavila> oh, yeah, no, I figured
[2021-08-25T02:22:24Z] <midfavila> i'm just playing with them rn
[2021-08-25T02:22:26Z] <acheam> how is that different than other coreutils?
[2021-08-25T02:22:35Z] <noocsharp> hows that mailing list coming dilyn?
[2021-08-25T02:22:39Z] <midfavila> their ls is just a space-delimited list of the directory contents
[2021-08-25T02:22:39Z] <dilyn> sh
[2021-08-25T02:22:44Z] <dilyn> yes acheam
[2021-08-25T02:22:47Z] <acheam> congrats!
[2021-08-25T02:22:48Z] <midfavila> suckless ls, at least, is newline-delimited
[2021-08-25T02:22:57Z] <acheam> you're officially a gnuugler
[2021-08-25T02:22:58Z] <phoebos> midfavila: yeah. the unixy way would be to pipe ls into sort, but i want that in the program
[2021-08-25T02:23:02Z] <noocsharp> tbh i might just send pull requests
[2021-08-25T02:23:16Z] <acheam> nooo do the classic kiss thing of sending links to patches in IRC
[2021-08-25T02:23:17Z] <midfavila> i just use cols to columnate things
[2021-08-25T02:23:20Z] <dilyn> hooray gnugle
[2021-08-25T02:23:24Z] <phoebos> that's one of the things i'm planning to change
[2021-08-25T02:23:43Z] <acheam> I just ls -l by default
[2021-08-25T02:23:44Z] <midfavila> i really want to have a set of supplementary tools to implement common niceties as discrete programs
[2021-08-25T02:23:53Z] <acheam> midfavila: you mean "col"?
[2021-08-25T02:23:57Z] <midfavila> no, I mean cols
[2021-08-25T02:24:05Z] <acheam> i feel like we've had this discussion before
[2021-08-25T02:24:06Z] <midfavila> the suckless implementation is called cols. i don't know about other systems.
[2021-08-25T02:24:13Z] <dilyn> alias ls='ls -lh'
[2021-08-25T02:24:17Z] <midfavila> anyway, an example is like
[2021-08-25T02:24:30Z] <acheam> alias ls='LC_COLLATE=C ls -lhF'
[2021-08-25T02:24:31Z] <midfavila> instead of implementing color-coding routines into every program I want it in
[2021-08-25T02:24:40Z] <dilyn> hng
[2021-08-25T02:24:47Z] <acheam> midfavila: on obsd its col, but its not posix anyway
[2021-08-25T02:24:48Z] <midfavila> just have a seperate "colorize" program that applies colors to text based on a regexp filter
[2021-08-25T02:25:02Z] <acheam> ew no
[2021-08-25T02:25:05Z] <phoebos> ls() { ls "$@" | sort }
[2021-08-25T02:25:10Z] <midfavila> don't use it if you don't want to :P
[2021-08-25T02:25:22Z] <phoebos> when do you want colors like that anyway
[2021-08-25T02:25:27Z] <acheam> phoebos: that doesn't work when ls prints the total line in -l
[2021-08-25T02:25:29Z] <phoebos> they'd have to be pretty generic
[2021-08-25T02:25:34Z] <midfavila> personally? I would like it for logs
[2021-08-25T02:25:36Z] <dilyn> http://ix.io/3wSz i stopped being lazy :o
[2021-08-25T02:25:45Z] <acheam> with -F ls colors are useless IMO
[2021-08-25T02:25:54Z] <midfavila> color-coding errors or segfaults or whatever would be awesome
[2021-08-25T02:26:09Z] <midfavila> color-coding manpages is also nice, but not necessary, strictly speaking
[2021-08-25T02:26:11Z] <phoebos> ah true acheam, i just wanted it for the short version
[2021-08-25T02:26:12Z] <noocsharp> gnuless nasm?
[2021-08-25T02:26:16Z] <dilyn> mmhmm
[2021-08-25T02:26:41Z] <phoebos> niice dilyn
[2021-08-25T02:26:59Z] <dilyn> nasm is the easiest one XD it's just two binaries and a lib
[2021-08-25T02:27:08Z] <dilyn> nss is... not gonna be fun.
[2021-08-25T02:27:23Z] <phoebos> midfavila: what do you colour in a manpage? code snippets?
[2021-08-25T02:27:30Z] <dilyn> and it isnt' even technically good -- i imagine this makefile isn't usable on systems that aren't mine
[2021-08-25T02:27:39Z] <noocsharp> probably easier to replace nss with something sane than rewrite the build system
[2021-08-25T02:27:48Z] <midfavila> personally? yeah, code snippets, headers, that sort of thing. it'd be nice to have bolder bold text and stuff
[2021-08-25T02:27:52Z] <acheam> phoebos: -F works on short ls listing
[2021-08-25T02:28:00Z] <midfavila> it's just kind of an idea I've been kicking around today
[2021-08-25T02:28:14Z] <dilyn> there's a sane alternative to nss?
[2021-08-25T02:28:15Z] <midfavila> i'll probably reimplement a lot of heirloom tools, too
[2021-08-25T02:28:15Z] <dilyn> mfw
[2021-08-25T02:28:18Z] <acheam> Color coded manpages are indeed white
[2021-08-25T02:28:19Z] <phoebos> what does bolder bold mean
[2021-08-25T02:28:31Z] <acheam> s/white/nice/g
[2021-08-25T02:28:35Z] <acheam> Idk what I was thinking
[2021-08-25T02:28:42Z] <phoebos> lol
[2021-08-25T02:28:53Z] <midfavila> well, you could have bold be set to a bright white - but maybe I want manpages specifically to set bold text to bright red, or something
[2021-08-25T02:28:57Z] <noocsharp> i mean write a sane alternative to nss
[2021-08-25T02:29:04Z] <acheam> Do it
[2021-08-25T02:29:04Z] <midfavila> imagine expecting me to have actually consistent and fleshed out ideas
[2021-08-25T02:29:05Z] <midfavila> smh
[2021-08-25T02:29:06Z] <phoebos> i have ls -F aliased yeah but for k9core it still needs sorting
[2021-08-25T02:29:23Z] <acheam> Oh
[2021-08-25T02:29:41Z] <noocsharp> dilyn: https://nihaljere.xyz/files/0002-sfeed-bump-to-1.0.patch
[2021-08-25T02:29:52Z] <midfavila> oh, btw, for anyone looking for a super-simple X image viewer, you might want to check out meh
[2021-08-25T02:29:52Z] <acheam> Yes. This is the way.
[2021-08-25T02:30:08Z] <acheam> Link plox
[2021-08-25T02:30:28Z] <dilyn> applied ty
[2021-08-25T02:30:35Z] <midfavila> https://github.com/jhawthorn/meh acheam
[2021-08-25T02:30:44Z] <midfavila> it's like 1500 lines of code or less
[2021-08-25T02:30:48Z] <noocsharp> dilyn: https://nihaljere.xyz/files/0004-isync-bump-to-1.4.3.patch
[2021-08-25T02:31:02Z] <midfavila> i've been using it the past little bit, it's a great program
[2021-08-25T02:31:03Z] <phoebos> ah why didn't i think of that for community patches. literally took 10 minutes setting up remotes correctly and forking on gh
[2021-08-25T02:31:07Z] <phoebos> smh
[2021-08-25T02:31:13Z] <midfavila> i'll probably tinker with it for a while before writing my own image viewer
[2021-08-25T02:31:18Z] <noocsharp> dilyn: https://nihaljere.xyz/files/0003-sfeed_curses-bump-to-1.0.patch
[2021-08-25T02:31:26Z] <acheam> midfavila: looks good
[2021-08-25T02:31:49Z] <midfavila> at the very least it would be nice to have the image viewer be capable of on the fly resizing... although I might just not know how to do that. i'll strip out the imagemagick interface, too
[2021-08-25T02:32:13Z] <acheam> phoebos: i have insider info that this is how development happens in FAANG
[2021-08-25T02:32:25Z] <dilyn> applied applied
[2021-08-25T02:32:29Z] <phoebos> meh looks nice. while i'm trying wayland, does anyone know a wayland image viewer that works without extra EGL cruft
[2021-08-25T02:32:33Z] <phoebos> lmao
[2021-08-25T02:32:59Z] <phoebos> is that something you started
[2021-08-25T02:33:12Z] <phoebos> s/started/introduced/
[2021-08-25T02:33:19Z] <acheam> I think noocsharp started it
[2021-08-25T02:33:25Z] <midfavila> >talking to anyone who works for FAGMAN
[2021-08-25T02:33:25Z] <midfavila> absolutely unbased, acheam
[2021-08-25T02:33:27Z] <midfavila> fifty lashings
[2021-08-25T02:33:28Z] <phoebos> i mean into FAANG
[2021-08-25T02:33:31Z] <illiliti> phoebos: imv with my patch
[2021-08-25T02:33:52Z] <acheam> phoebos: yes slowly ive been infiltrating their devops teams
[2021-08-25T02:33:55Z] <phoebos> ah thank you! where's your patch
[2021-08-25T02:33:58Z] <illiliti> https://termbin.com/rehx
[2021-08-25T02:34:28Z] <dilyn> ACK! i've been using the wrong email with my .gitconfig. smh
[2021-08-25T02:34:52Z] <kyxor> dilyn: your signature is also expired on some commits
[2021-08-25T02:34:55Z] <acheam> Some good git rebase action coming I presume?
[2021-08-25T02:35:09Z] <acheam> Wow really slacking dilyn
[2021-08-25T02:35:10Z] <dilyn> urgh
[2021-08-25T02:35:19Z] <acheam> midfavila: oh noes
[2021-08-25T02:35:22Z] <dilyn> expired? my keys never expire :'(
[2021-08-25T02:35:40Z] <acheam> Wait why do you even have gpg installed
[2021-08-25T02:35:42Z] <kyxor> I mean idk, it just doesn't show like verified on github
[2021-08-25T02:35:42Z] <acheam> What is this
[2021-08-25T02:36:09Z] <acheam> Yes it does?
[2021-08-25T02:37:36Z] <phoebos> i think that's for the commits you used @tutanota for, for which gh doesn't have your public key?
[2021-08-25T02:37:51Z] <acheam> I see a tutanota commit as verified
[2021-08-25T02:38:43Z] <dilyn> it's unclear why anything is wrong
[2021-08-25T02:38:51Z] <dilyn> gnupg is installed because age is next on the list of things to play with
[2021-08-25T02:39:16Z] <midfavila> but muh authoritarian loicense
[2021-08-25T02:39:34Z] <phoebos> https://tmp.bvnf.space/ss.png
[2021-08-25T02:39:37Z] <kyxor> it's certainly missing email
[2021-08-25T02:39:47Z] <midfavila> >ss
[2021-08-25T02:39:51Z] <midfavila> that's excellent timing
[2021-08-25T02:40:02Z] <phoebos> how so?
[2021-08-25T02:40:06Z] <noocsharp> dilyn: https://nihaljere.xyz/files/0001-gnupg2-bump-to-2.3.2.patch
[2021-08-25T02:40:10Z] <acheam> Oh I was looking on kiss-community/community and its verified
[2021-08-25T02:40:12Z] <midfavila> >muh authoritarian loicense
[2021-08-25T02:40:16Z] <midfavila> following by ss.png
[2021-08-25T02:40:19Z] <midfavila> followed*
[2021-08-25T02:40:27Z] <midfavila> god
[2021-08-25T02:40:29Z] <midfavila> i can't spell
[2021-08-25T02:40:29Z] <phoebos> ah lmao
[2021-08-25T02:40:32Z] <midfavila> i'm gonna go like
[2021-08-25T02:40:34Z] <midfavila> die
[2021-08-25T02:40:35Z] <midfavila> or something
[2021-08-25T02:40:51Z] <phoebos> don't do that you've got like 16 textbooks to read
[2021-08-25T02:41:02Z] <midfavila> 19 so far actually
[2021-08-25T02:41:04Z] <midfavila> i just tallied them
[2021-08-25T02:41:12Z] <dilyn> if this commit isn't verified for this patch then i'm not certain what's wrong xd
[2021-08-25T02:41:13Z] <phoebos> oof all the more reason
[2021-08-25T02:41:42Z] <midfavila> i need another book on languages to make sure my schedule can be filled properly
[2021-08-25T02:41:44Z] <phoebos> illiliti: your patch removes icu, but i still get meson.build:44:2: ERROR: Dependency "opengl" not found, tried pkgconfig and cmake
[2021-08-25T02:41:45Z] <midfavila> maybe FORTH
[2021-08-25T02:41:47Z] <dilyn> okay yes it was just the email in my .gitconfig
[2021-08-25T02:42:02Z] <dilyn> forgot to change that when i nixed the k1sslinux.org domain from my gpg key
[2021-08-25T02:42:09Z] <midfavila> that would be C/C++, Lisp/Scheme, Python, and FORTH. A good set of languages, I think
[2021-08-25T02:42:24Z] <phoebos> >python
[2021-08-25T02:42:28Z] <midfavila> yes
[2021-08-25T02:42:28Z] <phoebos> "good"
[2021-08-25T02:42:29Z] <midfavila> i know
[2021-08-25T02:42:33Z] <midfavila> heresy
[2021-08-25T02:42:35Z] <kyxor> midfavila:...
[2021-08-25T02:42:45Z] <midfavila> but python is Professional:tm: and an Employable Skill:tm:
[2021-08-25T02:43:04Z] <phoebos> also c++?
[2021-08-25T02:43:08Z] <midfavila> yes.
[2021-08-25T02:43:17Z] <phoebos> ok
[2021-08-25T02:43:25Z] <midfavila> look, I'm not happy about it either
[2021-08-25T02:43:25Z] <kyxor> still better than rust
[2021-08-25T02:43:32Z] <midfavila> but if I want to be able to work as a programmer I need to know C++
[2021-08-25T02:43:38Z] <midfavila> i'm trying to keep my options open
[2021-08-25T02:43:48Z] <illiliti> phoebos: i misread your message, sry. I don't think if it's even possible to build wayland application without EGL
[2021-08-25T02:43:57Z] <midfavila> because - whoops - turns out nobody in my province outside of a nuclear research facility is hiring a unix admin
[2021-08-25T02:44:19Z] <midfavila> said research facility requires ten years' experience and classified security clearance
[2021-08-25T02:44:37Z] <phoebos> illiliti: is egl the stuff made by nvidia?
[2021-08-25T02:45:01Z] <illiliti> egl != eglstreams
[2021-08-25T02:45:12Z] <illiliti> egl isn't made by nvidia
[2021-08-25T02:45:16Z] <noocsharp> wld exists
[2021-08-25T02:46:06Z] <noocsharp> but you would have to write your own image viewing program for it probably
[2021-08-25T02:46:26Z] <phoebos> do you have a link to the egl source?
[2021-08-25T02:46:55Z] <illiliti> egl is specification, the implementation is mesa
[2021-08-25T02:47:34Z] <phoebos> ahh
[2021-08-25T02:48:42Z] <phoebos> sorry i know nothing about graphics drivers stuff
[2021-08-25T02:48:54Z] <phoebos> is opengl something else?
[2021-08-25T02:49:24Z] <acheam> midfavila: forth is very cool
[2021-08-25T02:49:35Z] <acheam> I spent a day or two learning the basiscs
[2021-08-25T02:49:57Z] <acheam> I reccomend retroforth if you actually want to be able to do anything
[2021-08-25T02:50:05Z] <acheam> (and don't want gnu)
[2021-08-25T02:50:16Z] <illiliti> opengl implemented by mesa too
[2021-08-25T02:50:38Z] <midfavila> i've used gforth before. only thing that bugs me is its awful compiletime
[2021-08-25T02:50:59Z] <midfavila> i doubt I'll use forth for anything practically-speaking, other than contributing to collapseOS and maybe bare-metal programming
[2021-08-25T02:51:07Z] <phoebos> hm. why doesn't imv find opengl then
[2021-08-25T02:51:14Z] <midfavila> i'm mostly interested in it to learn more about stack machines
[2021-08-25T02:51:37Z] <midfavila> i figure being familiar with turing machines, stack machines, and lambda calculus is a good thing if I'm going to be self-teaching computer science over the next year or two
[2021-08-25T02:51:45Z] <midfavila> hence C, FORTH and Lisp
[2021-08-25T02:52:06Z] <acheam> learn all of the machines
[2021-08-25T02:52:21Z] <midfavila> when I work through MIT 6.004 I will
[2021-08-25T02:52:25Z] <acheam> oh also up your vein, I'm getting into amateur radio
[2021-08-25T02:52:37Z] <midfavila> neat. I was thinking about getting back into it earlier today
[2021-08-25T02:52:40Z] <acheam> have been learning CW in my free time
[2021-08-25T02:52:44Z] <acheam> oh were you into it before?
[2021-08-25T02:52:54Z] <midfavila> Yeah, I attended the local ARC back in 2019
[2021-08-25T02:53:03Z] <midfavila> ended up having to drop out because of personal reasons
[2021-08-25T02:53:13Z] <acheam> cool
[2021-08-25T02:53:21Z] <acheam> (cool on attedning, not having to drop out)
[2021-08-25T02:53:24Z] <midfavila> kek
[2021-08-25T02:53:27Z] <midfavila> but yeah I was like
[2021-08-25T02:53:28Z] <midfavila> "whoa"
[2021-08-25T02:53:29Z] <midfavila> "dude"
[2021-08-25T02:53:41Z] <midfavila> "what if I could like... send a camera and radio module into like"
[2021-08-25T02:53:43Z] <midfavila> "space and shit"
[2021-08-25T02:53:48Z] <acheam> Now I have a paycheck, I can buy a radio and stuff
[2021-08-25T02:54:13Z] <acheam> next step is convincing my parents a 60ft long wire in the front lawn is a good idea
[2021-08-25T02:54:30Z] * midfavila shrugs
[2021-08-25T02:54:39Z] <midfavila> I can't set up antennae since I'm stuck in my apartment
[2021-08-25T02:55:00Z] <acheam> you can use VHF/UHF though
[2021-08-25T02:55:09Z] <midfavila> useless for anything I'm interested in
[2021-08-25T02:55:21Z] <acheam> what are you interested in? besides sending cameras and radios into space and shit
[2021-08-25T02:55:30Z] <midfavila> long-range decentralized communications networks
[2021-08-25T02:55:43Z] <acheam> oh, yeah, thats what i'm into too
[2021-08-25T02:55:49Z] <midfavila> something like UUCP over AX.25 would be really fascinating
[2021-08-25T02:55:54Z] <acheam> (hence why I like HF and CW)
[2021-08-25T02:56:00Z] <midfavila> I also want to join ARES
[2021-08-25T02:56:02Z] * necromansy chilling with ULF
[2021-08-25T02:56:51Z] <acheam> lol
[2021-08-25T02:56:58Z] <necromansy> not radio tho
[2021-08-25T02:57:05Z] <acheam> oh that wasnt a joke
[2021-08-25T02:57:20Z] * acheam remembers that necromansy does science stuff
[2021-08-25T02:57:40Z] <necromansy> yeah nah my research is in waves :>
[2021-08-25T02:57:43Z] <midfavila> soyence
[2021-08-25T02:59:11Z] <necromansy> the big soy
[2021-08-25T03:00:02Z] <midfavila> ...shit, I have to learn haskell too
[2021-08-25T03:00:02Z] <acheam> midfavila: oh so you mean like computerized communications
[2021-08-25T03:00:05Z] <midfavila> yes
[2021-08-25T03:00:09Z] <acheam> thats boring
[2021-08-25T03:00:12Z] <acheam> compooders bad
[2021-08-25T03:00:14Z] <acheam> morse code good
[2021-08-25T03:00:17Z] <midfavila> i have zero interest in using radio to talk to boomers
[2021-08-25T03:00:31Z] <acheam> until disaster strikes?
[2021-08-25T03:00:35Z] <midfavila> no, period.
[2021-08-25T03:00:48Z] <acheam> then you might not be good in ares
[2021-08-25T03:01:04Z] <acheam> isnt that all they do?
[2021-08-25T03:01:08Z] <midfavila> ARES is volunteer corps. I'm fine with stepping outside my comfort zone to help other people
[2021-08-25T03:01:18Z] <acheam> yeah thats what I meant
[2021-08-25T03:01:21Z] <midfavila> and yes, ARES is primarily an entity responsible for ad-hoc comms infrastructure
[2021-08-25T03:02:01Z] <midfavila> they work with police, hospitals, fire departments, and (I think?) sometimes the military in the event of natural disasters that destroy communications infrastructure
[2021-08-25T03:02:10Z] <noocsharp> dilyn: https://nihaljere.xyz/files/0001-go-bump-to-1.17.patch
[2021-08-25T03:02:30Z] <midfavila> but as for personal use in the event of a disaster? yeah nah
[2021-08-25T03:02:42Z] <acheam> interesting
[2021-08-25T03:02:47Z] <midfavila> my primary concerns are shelter, food, water, hand tools, then a computer, in that order
[2021-08-25T03:02:56Z] <midfavila> (shelter implying security)
[2021-08-25T03:03:42Z] <acheam> I should really up my collapse/disaster preparedness
[2021-08-25T03:04:09Z] <acheam> I do more than most but still not enough to really help if shtf
[2021-08-25T03:04:12Z] <midfavila> but that just makes you a conspiracy theorist!!!
[2021-08-25T03:04:23Z] <necromansy> tbf most people who do it are :P
[2021-08-25T03:04:26Z] <midfavila> everyone knows that there would never be a failure of government to respond to a natural disaster
[2021-08-25T03:04:37Z] <noocsharp> never
[2021-08-25T03:04:41Z] * midfavila coughs
[2021-08-25T03:04:48Z] <phoebos> noocsharp: damn
[2021-08-25T03:05:21Z] <noocsharp> that's the last patch
[2021-08-25T03:05:26Z] <dilyn> noochsharp: i guess community's go never hit 1.16.7?
[2021-08-25T03:05:42Z] <noocsharp> nope, i had updated it locally but never sent it
[2021-08-25T03:05:50Z] <noocsharp> was waiting on the mailing list
[2021-08-25T03:06:14Z] <acheam> see, its all your fault dilyn
[2021-08-25T03:06:36Z] <noocsharp> entirely dilyns fault, i could not have possibly sent a pull request or patches to irc earlier
[2021-08-25T03:06:39Z] <midfavila> wtf why is nokia working on 6g when 5g isn't even deployed yet
[2021-08-25T03:06:40Z] <dilyn> lol
[2021-08-25T03:06:49Z] <dilyn> i'll just modify the patch if that's gucci
[2021-08-25T03:07:07Z] <midfavila> ...and they're apparently building a cell network on the moon.
[2021-08-25T03:07:23Z] <noocsharp> wait, did i screw something up again?
[2021-08-25T03:07:38Z] <dilyn> well your patch bumps from 1.16.7 to 1.17 but we're still at 1.16.6
[2021-08-25T03:07:43Z] <noocsharp> ah
[2021-08-25T03:07:44Z] <dilyn> ez fix
[2021-08-25T03:07:55Z] <midfavila> https://www.nokia.com/about-us/news/releases/2020/10/19/nokia-selected-by-nasa-to-build-first-ever-cellular-network-on-the-moon/
[2021-08-25T03:13:11Z] <noocsharp> something something nokia to the moon
[2021-08-25T03:23:56Z] <midfavila> hmm
[2021-08-25T03:24:13Z] <midfavila> i've been thinking of replacing sh as my standard scripting language for some time, but I can't decide with what
[2021-08-25T03:24:32Z] <midfavila> i'm torn between lua and tcl...
[2021-08-25T03:33:23Z] <midfavila> could also use rc
[2021-08-25T03:34:06Z] <midfavila> in the future it'd be really nice if I could tune up and use es, but as it stands es is... more than a little rusty...
[2021-08-25T03:39:21Z] <testuser[m]> Hi
[2021-08-25T03:43:38Z] <phoebos> hi
[2021-08-25T03:46:09Z] <acheam> why. would. you. choose. tcl.
[2021-08-25T03:46:29Z] <midfavila> small and lightweight
[2021-08-25T03:46:31Z] * midfavila shrugs
[2021-08-25T03:46:37Z] <acheam> so is lua
[2021-08-25T03:46:40Z] <acheam> and its actually not terrible
[2021-08-25T03:46:49Z] <midfavila> yes, hence my "I'm not sure which to choose"
[2021-08-25T03:47:10Z] <midfavila> the thing with lua is that there's like four different versions or w/e
[2021-08-25T03:47:19Z] <midfavila> and they all have difference library support
[2021-08-25T03:47:24Z] <midfavila> and it's just kind of a mess
[2021-08-25T03:47:33Z] <midfavila> different
[2021-08-25T03:47:33Z] <midfavila> fuck
[2021-08-25T03:47:37Z] <midfavila> i need to sleep soon
[2021-08-25T03:48:40Z] <msk[m]> What's wrong with sh?
[2021-08-25T03:48:58Z] <msk[m]> Sorry if that's a stupid question
[2021-08-25T03:49:06Z] <midfavila> i just find it hard to write larger scripts with. syntax is funky and kind of inconsistent too, imho
[2021-08-25T03:49:17Z] <midfavila> rc is nice and clean, in comparison
[2021-08-25T03:49:28Z] <midfavila> and es adds lambdas and lots of other niceties on top of rc
[2021-08-25T03:51:08Z] <msk[m]> Ah I agree with that, it's sometimes hard to comprehend what is going on if I come back to a long sh script
[2021-08-25T03:51:20Z] <midfavila> mhm
[2021-08-25T03:51:25Z] <midfavila> like, for example,
[2021-08-25T03:52:04Z] <midfavila> x=$(($(/usr/bin/dd bs=2 count=1 if=/dev/random of=/dev/stdout| /usr/bin/od -| /usr/bin/sed 's/ */ /'|/usr/bin/cut -d ' ' -f2|/usr/bin/sed 1!d)%$((1+$(/usr/bin/ls|/usr/bin/wc -l)))))
[2021-08-25T03:52:15Z] <midfavila> this is probably one of my most-hated shell snippets
[2021-08-25T03:52:34Z] <midfavila> all of that garbage just to generate a random number in a portable fashion
[2021-08-25T03:52:57Z] <midfavila> also don't @ me for hardcoding paths
[2021-08-25T03:53:26Z] <msk[m]> That seems like it would be neater over multiple lines
[2021-08-25T03:53:36Z] <midfavila> in the script itself it's split across three
[2021-08-25T03:53:43Z] <midfavila> this is an excerpt from my ffplay wrapper
[2021-08-25T03:54:05Z] <midfavila> in it I use that snippet to retrieve a random filename from the current directory
[2021-08-25T03:54:20Z] <msk[m]> What
[2021-08-25T03:54:33Z] <midfavila> yup.
[2021-08-25T03:54:40Z] <msk[m]> Why not just ls | shuf | head -1
[2021-08-25T03:54:51Z] <dilyn> why declare the whole path lmao
[2021-08-25T03:55:01Z] <midfavila> because fuck you it was 3AM when I wrote that
[2021-08-25T03:55:03Z] <dilyn> shuf isn't posix
[2021-08-25T03:55:06Z] <dilyn> right?
[2021-08-25T03:55:07Z] <midfavila> also that
[2021-08-25T03:55:09Z] <dilyn> otherwise it's just too easy
[2021-08-25T03:55:11Z] <msk[m]> Oh
[2021-08-25T03:55:11Z] <midfavila> afaik it's not portable
[2021-08-25T03:55:31Z] <testuser[m]> Just embed a shuf impl into the script and compile if it isnt available
[2021-08-25T03:55:32Z] <midfavila> so the only real source of true pseudorandomness in shell is reading from random
[2021-08-25T03:55:50Z] <msk[m]> Why does it have to be portable if it's a personal script
[2021-08-25T03:56:07Z] <dilyn> because mid is the only person who would find themselves going from a unix box to plan9 and then netbsd on accident
[2021-08-25T03:56:08Z] <midfavila> because shuf isn't on my systems
[2021-08-25T03:56:12Z] <midfavila> also
[2021-08-25T03:56:15Z] <midfavila> it's not on accident
[2021-08-25T03:56:18Z] <midfavila> i use all three >:c
[2021-08-25T03:56:21Z] <midfavila> also also
[2021-08-25T03:56:25Z] <midfavila> >implying the bsds aren't unix
[2021-08-25T03:56:28Z] <midfavila> how could you dilyn
[2021-08-25T03:56:33Z] <dilyn> just implying that you don't use bsd
[2021-08-25T03:56:43Z] <midfavila> i use netbsd and dragonfly, and open
[2021-08-25T03:56:46Z] <midfavila> nerd
[2021-08-25T03:57:07Z] <dilyn> f
[2021-08-25T03:58:02Z] <midfavila> anyway yeah I'm hoping that if I switch to another interpreter for my system scripts (probably es tbqh) i'll be able to do more in the language itself and have cleaner scripts in general
[2021-08-25T03:58:33Z] <midfavila> the only semi-issue with es is that it lacks an embedded calculator, but like
[2021-08-25T03:58:37Z] <midfavila> expr exists, as does bc
[2021-08-25T03:59:03Z] <msk[m]> What about Go or something
[2021-08-25T03:59:08Z] <midfavila> muh FAGMAN
[2021-08-25T03:59:17Z] <msk[m]> Huh
[2021-08-25T03:59:51Z] <midfavila> to the best of my ability I've eliminated all proprietary software and anything tangentially related to FAGMAN from my systems, although I still need to rework the Mesa package and stuff...
[2021-08-25T04:00:17Z] <msk[m]> Oh
[2021-08-25T04:00:39Z] <midfavila> also I feel like go would be a bit too much for most of my scripts
[2021-08-25T04:00:44Z] <msk[m]> But then you wouldn't use plan9
[2021-08-25T04:00:59Z] <midfavila> plan 9 is developed and maintained by the plan 9 foundation
[2021-08-25T04:01:10Z] <msk[m]> Didn't Rob work on it
[2021-08-25T04:01:17Z] <midfavila> I don't have an issue with Rob Pike
[2021-08-25T04:01:18Z] <msk[m]> Sorry I'm on mobile
[2021-08-25T04:01:20Z] <midfavila> I have an issue with Google
[2021-08-25T04:01:41Z] <testuser[m]> Poogle
[2021-08-25T04:01:46Z] <midfavila> goolag
[2021-08-25T04:02:19Z] <msk[m]> But Rob Pike made Go
[2021-08-25T04:02:27Z] <midfavila> as an employee of Google
[2021-08-25T04:02:38Z] <midfavila> therefore Go is Google technology
[2021-08-25T04:02:48Z] <midfavila> therefore it's off-limits
[2021-08-25T04:03:07Z] <msk[m]> So if he made it right before joining Google it would be fine?
[2021-08-25T04:03:16Z] <midfavila> those versions would be fine, yes
[2021-08-25T04:03:31Z] <midfavila> everything post-Google would be controlled by said company and therefore can't be trusted
[2021-08-25T04:03:41Z] <dilyn> oh damn what, is libuuid bsd3
[2021-08-25T04:03:46Z] <dilyn> what is my life
[2021-08-25T04:03:57Z] <dilyn> has someone written a libblkid alternative that isn't gpl2 lmfaoooo
[2021-08-25T04:04:13Z] <midfavila> a sad story of a man slowly going insane in an obscure gahnooloonix eyearesee channel
[2021-08-25T04:04:38Z] <dilyn> nothing slow about this
[2021-08-25T04:04:47Z] <midfavila> oh hey es supports readline and editline
[2021-08-25T04:04:49Z] <dilyn> i'm zoomin'
[2021-08-25T04:04:55Z] <midfavila> millenialin'
[2021-08-25T04:05:29Z] <msk[m]> What about Python? It's slow but that's fine for basic scripts, right?
[2021-08-25T04:05:42Z] <midfavila> hold me back, dilyn
[2021-08-25T04:05:46Z] <msk[m]> The syntax is much more readable than sh
[2021-08-25T04:05:47Z] <midfavila> HOLD ME BACK
[2021-08-25T04:06:29Z] <midfavila> my main requirements for a scripting language are that it's highly efficient and starts quickly
[2021-08-25T04:06:36Z] <testuser[m]> Only practical slowness for most cases is interpreter startup time of 100-200ms
[2021-08-25T04:06:36Z] <midfavila> python is neither of these things
[2021-08-25T04:06:44Z] <midfavila> 100-200ms is too much
[2021-08-25T04:06:51Z] <testuser[m]> Yeah
[2021-08-25T04:06:53Z] <midfavila> besides, I don't use python for anything
[2021-08-25T04:07:09Z] <midfavila> no reason for me to start
[2021-08-25T04:07:39Z] <testuser[m]> That's why i wouldn't use it for something like this that runs on every shell instance https://github.com/nvbn/thefuck
[2021-08-25T04:09:03Z] <msk[m]> Well that's fine if you already use Python as your terminal shell, right?
[2021-08-25T04:09:22Z] <midfavila> if I used python as my regular command interpreter then like, sure, I guess
[2021-08-25T04:09:25Z] <midfavila> but I would never do that
[2021-08-25T04:09:31Z] <midfavila> nor should anyone else
[2021-08-25T04:09:44Z] <testuser[m]> I guess you could circumvent the startup time by using cpython or whatever
[2021-08-25T04:09:50Z] <testuser[m]> cython
[2021-08-25T04:10:17Z] <midfavila> >mfw sbcl starts up more quickly than python
[2021-08-25T04:10:18Z] <midfavila> amazing
[2021-08-25T04:10:20Z] <dilyn> ln -sv python /usr/bin/sh
[2021-08-25T04:10:24Z] <dilyn> mmmm
[2021-08-25T04:10:25Z] <msk[m]> Doesn't cython just convert Python syntax to C syntax
[2021-08-25T04:10:32Z] <midfavila> cursed, dilyn
[2021-08-25T04:10:37Z] <midfavila> go sit in the corner and think about what you've done
[2021-08-25T04:10:56Z] <msk[m]> I was joking about the Python shell
[2021-08-25T04:11:01Z] <acheam> msk[m]: no
[2021-08-25T04:11:04Z] <midfavila> you joke about it but it exists
[2021-08-25T04:11:05Z] <midfavila> look up xonsh
[2021-08-25T04:11:14Z] <acheam> midfavila: bc isnt POSIX
[2021-08-25T04:11:16Z] <noocsharp> ln -s firefox /bin/sh
[2021-08-25T04:11:24Z] <midfavila> acheam i'm using a non-posix language
[2021-08-25T04:11:27Z] <midfavila> the problem isn't posix
[2021-08-25T04:11:32Z] <midfavila> it's midix
[2021-08-25T04:11:41Z] <acheam> But why would you use it
[2021-08-25T04:11:43Z] <testuser[m]> Midix ?
[2021-08-25T04:11:43Z] <acheam> Over dc
[2021-08-25T04:11:47Z] <acheam> Which is posix
[2021-08-25T04:11:57Z] <midfavila> why would I use dc over bc? just because it's posix, in a non-portable script anyway?
[2021-08-25T04:12:08Z] <msk[m]> "The xonsh shell lets you easily mix Python and shell commands in a powerful and simplified approach to the command line." wtf
[2021-08-25T04:12:22Z] <midfavila> also
[2021-08-25T04:12:27Z] <midfavila> bc *is* posix
[2021-08-25T04:12:46Z] <dilyn> $(w+h+y))
[2021-08-25T04:12:46Z] <midfavila> https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/bc.html
[2021-08-25T04:12:56Z] <midfavila> dilyn that's bourne-specific
[2021-08-25T04:13:40Z] <msk[m]> The xonsh example section cats into grep, that's how you know it's quality software
[2021-08-25T04:13:41Z] <dilyn> i was born specific
[2021-08-25T04:14:01Z] <acheam> midfavila: oh is that a recent (last 10 years) addition?
[2021-08-25T04:14:05Z] <midfavila> no
[2021-08-25T04:14:12Z] <midfavila> bc was posix-ified in 1991 my dude
[2021-08-25T04:14:20Z] <acheam> Oh
[2021-08-25T04:14:24Z] <acheam> My b
[2021-08-25T04:14:27Z] <midfavila> ;p
[2021-08-25T04:14:34Z] <midfavila> I forgive you, my child
[2021-08-25T04:14:48Z] <midfavila> your penance is that you must replace bc and dc with hoc
[2021-08-25T04:14:56Z] <acheam> Hoc?
[2021-08-25T04:15:06Z] <midfavila> high-order calculator
[2021-08-25T04:15:15Z] <acheam> But I like dc
[2021-08-25T04:15:19Z] <msk[m]> Hungover calculator
[2021-08-25T04:15:31Z] <midfavila> it's a simple arithmetic language developed as part of programming in the unix environment and later as part of research unix 10 and plan 9
[2021-08-25T04:15:56Z] <midfavila> anyway, ultimately I intend to develop my own scripting and command language
[2021-08-25T04:16:04Z] <midfavila> probably based on some unholy fusion of es and yash
[2021-08-25T04:16:14Z] <noocsharp> probably should learn some precalc first
[2021-08-25T04:16:23Z] <midfavila> i'm going to
[2021-08-25T04:16:24Z] <acheam> But its not stack based :(
[2021-08-25T04:16:45Z] <midfavila> as it stands I've made up for where I fell behind in high school in the past month
[2021-08-25T04:16:52Z] <acheam> I still don't get what's wrong with node
[2021-08-25T04:17:06Z] <midfavila> ...as in node.js?
[2021-08-25T04:17:26Z] <midfavila> if so,
[2021-08-25T04:17:31Z] <midfavila> can I introduce you to the JVM?
[2021-08-25T04:17:39Z] <acheam> Yes, the performant, industry-choice, cross platofrm scripting language
[2021-08-25T04:18:09Z] <midfavila> disgusting
[2021-08-25T04:18:31Z] <midfavila> an irl friend is teaching himself node because "oh well dude it's like a job skill you know"
[2021-08-25T04:18:40Z] <midfavila> and all I can do is grind my teeth together
[2021-08-25T04:19:05Z] <msk[m]> You can get quite a lot of money from poisoning the web
[2021-08-25T04:19:20Z] <midfavila> there's something to be said for valuing ethics over money
[2021-08-25T04:19:23Z] <dilyn> ...
[2021-08-25T04:19:28Z] <dilyn> http://ix.io/3wSS this is all zfs uses of libblkid?
[2021-08-25T04:19:35Z] <midfavila> >using zfs
[2021-08-25T04:19:35Z] <dilyn> holy macaroni
[2021-08-25T04:19:47Z] <dilyn> i'm not even using zfs yet :X
[2021-08-25T04:19:56Z] <dilyn> still waiting to get my drives before I bother
[2021-08-25T04:19:57Z] <midfavila> you should just use xfs and nilfs2 my dudeski
[2021-08-25T04:20:05Z] <midfavila> best combo
[2021-08-25T04:20:26Z] <acheam> But dilyn, everyone using zfs has util-linux installed anyways, so what's so bad about depending on it?
[2021-08-25T04:20:36Z] <midfavila> geepeel
[2021-08-25T04:20:40Z] <dilyn> *bsd
[2021-08-25T04:20:40Z] <dilyn> mfw
[2021-08-25T04:21:11Z] <acheam> Journaling file systems are for plebs who don't trust fsck
[2021-08-25T04:21:29Z] <midfavila> i mean
[2021-08-25T04:21:42Z] <midfavila> the only reason I chose XFS was because it's a high-performance filesystem that isn't pozzed lmao
[2021-08-25T04:21:56Z] <midfavila> i'd use homicidefs but it hasn't been maintained in ages
[2021-08-25T04:21:58Z] <acheam> Why is ext 4 pozzed
[2021-08-25T04:22:20Z] <dilyn> don't fsck your drives
[2021-08-25T04:22:22Z] <midfavila> 1 it's less performant than xfs
[2021-08-25T04:22:24Z] <midfavila> 2
[2021-08-25T04:22:30Z] <acheam> Xfs isn't /that/ much slowr
[2021-08-25T04:22:31Z] <midfavila> i can't just use *standard* formats, acheam
[2021-08-25T04:22:38Z] <acheam> Oh right rigjt
[2021-08-25T04:22:39Z] <acheam> Sorry
[2021-08-25T04:22:42Z] <midfavila> exactly
[2021-08-25T04:22:46Z] <midfavila> like, who the fuck do you think I am?
[2021-08-25T04:22:51Z] <midfavila> HONESTLY
[2021-08-25T04:23:08Z] <midfavila> i leave for a month or two and you all forget about my incredibly endearing personality and quirky behavior
[2021-08-25T04:23:10Z] <msk[m]> Is xfs as straightforward to set up?
[2021-08-25T04:23:13Z] <midfavila> yes
[2021-08-25T04:23:18Z] <midfavila> you literally just mkfs.xfs /dev/sdx
[2021-08-25T04:23:21Z] <midfavila> and you're done
[2021-08-25T04:23:30Z] <msk[m]> Oh nice
[2021-08-25T04:23:39Z] <msk[m]> I might try that next time I install
[2021-08-25T04:23:50Z] <midfavila> it's a really good general purpose fs
[2021-08-25T04:23:53Z] <midfavila> i use it for my root
[2021-08-25T04:23:56Z] <midfavila> nilfs2 for my home
[2021-08-25T04:24:59Z] <midfavila> unfortunately nilfs2 doesn't seem to support ACLs
[2021-08-25T04:25:41Z] <msk[m]> Would you still recommend xfs if someone doesn't use a separate home partition
[2021-08-25T04:25:45Z] <midfavila> yup
[2021-08-25T04:25:54Z] <midfavila> XFS is totally usable as a whole-system filesystem
[2021-08-25T04:25:57Z] <acheam> When do you use ACLs?
[2021-08-25T04:26:08Z] <midfavila> currently? never. but it's something I want to set up
[2021-08-25T04:26:13Z] <midfavila> i've been interested in SMACK for a long time
[2021-08-25T04:26:20Z] <midfavila> but I've never had the time to properly study it
[2021-08-25T04:26:21Z] <acheam> Smack?
[2021-08-25T04:26:29Z] <midfavila> simple mandatory access control kernel
[2021-08-25T04:26:38Z] <midfavila> it's like selinux except not hilariously overcomplicated and brittle
[2021-08-25T04:26:49Z] <midfavila> also it has the best mascot ever
[2021-08-25T04:27:09Z] <midfavila> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Smack-tux.svg
[2021-08-25T04:27:23Z] <midfavila> all I can think of is this guy slapping the shit out of you when you violate security policies
[2021-08-25T04:27:30Z] <acheam> Oh yes
[2021-08-25T04:27:47Z] <acheam> Is it as good as the mlmmj logo though?
[2021-08-25T04:27:59Z] <midfavila> post
[2021-08-25T04:28:01Z] <noocsharp> does it require program support to use?
[2021-08-25T04:28:09Z] <noocsharp> the way pledge and unveil do
[2021-08-25T04:28:11Z] <midfavila> yes, it requires smack-utils
[2021-08-25T04:28:22Z] <midfavila> it's only 184kb total though
[2021-08-25T04:28:25Z] <acheam> http://mlmmj.org/files/cache/978f23d44317bc0c92d1690a61967a41.png
[2021-08-25T04:28:33Z] <acheam> Thats different midfavila
[2021-08-25T04:28:43Z] <acheam> Than what noocsharp is asking
[2021-08-25T04:28:44Z] <noocsharp> no, i mean must modifications be made to a program in order to use it
[2021-08-25T04:28:47Z] <midfavila> oh, you mean support from a pro- OH
[2021-08-25T04:28:48Z] <midfavila> no, no
[2021-08-25T04:28:55Z] <midfavila> it's not really used for that sort of thing
[2021-08-25T04:29:01Z] <acheam> There is landlock though, that is similar to unveil
[2021-08-25T04:29:07Z] <midfavila> the best way to explain it is as a supplement to standard unix access controls
[2021-08-25T04:29:18Z] <midfavila> it's like being able to define your own permission bits and stuff.
[2021-08-25T04:29:37Z] <midfavila> it does require filesystem support though
[2021-08-25T04:29:40Z] <noocsharp> looks interesting
[2021-08-25T04:29:42Z] <midfavila> but that's no different from any other ACL
[2021-08-25T04:30:02Z] <midfavila> i want to experiment with cgroups and stuff as well
[2021-08-25T04:30:47Z] <midfavila> also
[2021-08-25T04:30:48Z] <noocsharp> it should not be as hard as it is to limit which files a program can see
[2021-08-25T04:31:01Z] <midfavila> ...er
[2021-08-25T04:31:02Z] <acheam> Landlock
[2021-08-25T04:31:08Z] <acheam> But thats only on recent kernels
[2021-08-25T04:31:09Z] <midfavila> does the program not inherit the permissions of the user running it
[2021-08-25T04:31:19Z] <acheam> Yeah but within a program
[2021-08-25T04:31:31Z] <midfavila> my response to that is a)
[2021-08-25T04:31:33Z] <midfavila> that's stupid
[2021-08-25T04:31:34Z] <midfavila> and b)
[2021-08-25T04:31:40Z] <acheam> For example on my obsd system Firefox only sees The downloads directory and .mozilla
[2021-08-25T04:31:40Z] <midfavila> why would you ever want to do it on a per-program basis
[2021-08-25T04:32:02Z] <acheam> So that a program can't read .ssh or .gnupg
[2021-08-25T04:32:05Z] <midfavila> if I wanted to do something like that I would create a system user, run the program as that user, and adjust the permissions of said user to achieve that same effect
[2021-08-25T04:32:14Z] <midfavila> or, you know, use a chroot or something
[2021-08-25T04:32:25Z] <midfavila> of course, plan 9's namespace capability can do that with the flick of a wrist...
[2021-08-25T04:32:27Z] <acheam> Right but do you want to do that for every program?
[2021-08-25T04:32:35Z] <acheam> Also doesnt work on multi user systems
[2021-08-25T04:32:38Z] <midfavila> i would just run them all as the same user.
[2021-08-25T04:32:47Z] <acheam> But then that ruins the point
[2021-08-25T04:32:52Z] <midfavila> ...no?
[2021-08-25T04:33:02Z] <noocsharp> principle of least privilege
[2021-08-25T04:33:04Z] <midfavila> if your concern is about encryption keys and shit, just don't use ssh with the system user
[2021-08-25T04:33:07Z] <acheam> And each program only needs to see different things
[2021-08-25T04:33:11Z] <acheam> What noocsharp said
[2021-08-25T04:33:26Z] <msk[m]> What if you move them from .ssh and .gnupg
[2021-08-25T04:33:26Z] <acheam> midfavila: not just ssh
[2021-08-25T04:33:29Z] <acheam> Any thing
[2021-08-25T04:33:31Z] <midfavila> yes, gpg as well
[2021-08-25T04:33:43Z] <midfavila> but like, real talk, I don't actually care about muh least privilege.
[2021-08-25T04:33:47Z] <noocsharp> a program should not have access to more information than is required for it to run
[2021-08-25T04:33:51Z] <midfavila> if I wanted a crazy-secure OS I'd use Multics
[2021-08-25T04:33:53Z] <midfavila> also
[2021-08-25T04:33:56Z] <midfavila> i know what it is, noocsharp
[2021-08-25T04:34:06Z] <acheam> You don't seem to follow it thoufh
[2021-08-25T04:34:11Z] <acheam> You must conform
[2021-08-25T04:34:28Z] <midfavila> because I only use simple tools and inspect the source code of what I run the most
[2021-08-25T04:34:37Z] <midfavila> unless mesa is compromised, or llvm or something, I think I'm good
[2021-08-25T04:35:03Z] <acheam> Still, why take the risk. Any program that takes user input is a danger
[2021-08-25T04:35:11Z] <midfavila> any program is a danger
[2021-08-25T04:35:23Z] <midfavila> jesus christ, any LED on the system is a danger
[2021-08-25T04:35:34Z] <midfavila> there are a billion and one ways to compromise and extract information from a running system
[2021-08-25T04:35:50Z] <acheam> So why not reduce them
[2021-08-25T04:35:50Z] <midfavila> the models employed by current-generation operating systems are fundamentally insecure
[2021-08-25T04:35:54Z] <midfavila> all we're doing is slapping shit on top
[2021-08-25T04:36:00Z] <midfavila> the best thing to do is to not use a system you don't trust
[2021-08-25T04:36:26Z] <midfavila> if slapping more and more garbage on top of your OS makes you trust it more, then that's good for you
[2021-08-25T04:36:29Z] <midfavila> but I'm not going to do that
[2021-08-25T04:36:56Z] <noocsharp> are you familiar with pledge and unveil?
[2021-08-25T04:37:09Z] <midfavila> no, because as I said, I have no interest in such technology
[2021-08-25T04:37:36Z] <consolers> whats so great about crashing the system
[2021-08-25T04:37:56Z] <noocsharp> they are syscalls in openbsd
[2021-08-25T04:38:20Z] <consolers> its the same fakesecurity narrative - deal with vulnerabilities by crashing the system - the real goal of the connviving security researchers is to DoS the user
[2021-08-25T04:38:46Z] <midfavila> well, DoS is better than a critical security leak
[2021-08-25T04:38:54Z] <consolers> the whole security community is deception with the king of lies at the chief researcher
[2021-08-25T04:39:00Z] <midfavila> the real issue is security where it's not needed
[2021-08-25T04:39:06Z] <midfavila> see: forcing tls on static content
[2021-08-25T04:39:17Z] <noocsharp> they force you to design your program in such a way that you reduce the "permissions" that your program requires as it progresses, which helps with program correctness as well
[2021-08-25T04:40:15Z] <midfavila> i mean, that's cool and all, but like
[2021-08-25T04:40:15Z] <consolers> almost all aspects of the security narrative is exactly the opposite. someone with venture money is backing a conspiracy to defraud and surveil
[2021-08-25T04:40:19Z] <consolers> tls is a surveil thing
[2021-08-25T04:40:28Z] <midfavila> plan 9's namespaces deals with all of those security issues in a single swoop
[2021-08-25T04:40:37Z] <midfavila> and it does so elegantly and efficiently
[2021-08-25T04:40:43Z] <noocsharp> explain consolers
[2021-08-25T04:40:46Z] <consolers> network signatures from librarires stop start time are all available
[2021-08-25T04:41:05Z] <consolers> this is what intel wants, verify that a communication took place and the times of that communication
[2021-08-25T04:41:20Z] <midfavila> they could get that with a wiretap
[2021-08-25T04:41:33Z] <noocsharp> ...you get that without tls anyway
[2021-08-25T04:41:34Z] <midfavila> which they do at junction points *anyway*
[2021-08-25T04:41:35Z] <midfavila> so
[2021-08-25T04:41:43Z] <midfavila> tls doesn't help much if at all in that regard
[2021-08-25T04:42:02Z] <consolers> i've been trying to stop mozilla from preconnecting. you cant disable preconnect preload images - and the speculative limit 0 is just are ignored
[2021-08-25T04:42:16Z] <midfavila> your first mistake was using pozilla
[2021-08-25T04:42:19Z] <midfavila> smh
[2021-08-25T04:42:28Z] <consolers> true
[2021-08-25T04:42:34Z] <consolers> i dont use much of it
[2021-08-25T04:42:47Z] <consolers> i cant use much of it i cant see any cloudfare or google site on it
[2021-08-25T04:43:37Z] <consolers> i want to use it locally to browse /usr/share/doc - but it preconnects to the internet and sends dns access signatures on each webpage even then
[2021-08-25T04:43:46Z] <midfavila> ...just use links?
[2021-08-25T04:43:57Z] <midfavila> or w3m, or lynx, or edbrowse
[2021-08-25T04:43:58Z] <consolers> links also had that problem
[2021-08-25T04:44:11Z] <consolers> i tried edbrowse but i couldnt keep up
[2021-08-25T04:44:18Z] <midfavila> alternatively just disconnect from the net or like
[2021-08-25T04:44:20Z] <consolers> w3m is stable
[2021-08-25T04:44:21Z] <midfavila> use a text editor
[2021-08-25T04:44:24Z] <midfavila> idk what your setup is
[2021-08-25T04:44:29Z] <noocsharp> use tor if you're so paranoid
[2021-08-25T04:44:31Z] <consolers> all emacs
[2021-08-25T04:44:35Z] <midfavila> based
[2021-08-25T04:44:36Z] <midfavila> also
[2021-08-25T04:44:39Z] <midfavila> tor is shit
[2021-08-25T04:44:45Z] <midfavila> if you're using any darknet, use i2p or gnunet
[2021-08-25T04:44:48Z] <consolers> nope tor just means my traffic goes through 30 dod machines
[2021-08-25T04:45:00Z] <noocsharp> then i2p
[2021-08-25T04:45:01Z] <consolers> what a waste of bandwidth
[2021-08-25T04:45:41Z] <acheam> eww
[2021-08-25T04:45:47Z] <midfavila> wowsers
[2021-08-25T04:45:49Z] <acheam> If youre using Emacs
[2021-08-25T04:45:53Z] <consolers> tor, bitcoin, and what is that bt protocol - all fake narratives
[2021-08-25T04:45:59Z] <consolers> bittorrent
[2021-08-25T04:45:59Z] <midfavila> oh, consolers
[2021-08-25T04:46:09Z] <midfavila> you might be interested in an article I came across a while back if you're an emacs guy
[2021-08-25T04:46:21Z] <midfavila> http://ambrevar.xyz/lisp-repl-shell/index.html
[2021-08-25T04:46:24Z] <noocsharp> well i'm convinced consolers is trolling now
[2021-08-25T04:46:35Z] <consolers> i'm an old school emacs user
[2021-08-25T04:46:39Z] <midfavila> talks about replacing a shell and terminal interface with a REPL and emacs
[2021-08-25T04:46:41Z] <consolers> i think i saw it but i didnt like it
[2021-08-25T04:46:47Z] <midfavila> oh, rip
[2021-08-25T04:46:59Z] <midfavila> i've only started using emacs recently. it's nifty enough though
[2021-08-25T04:47:04Z] <midfavila> 28 is exciting
[2021-08-25T04:47:30Z] <consolers> i didnt see the video but i didnt spot anything interesting or new in that webpage when i scanned it. maybe i should read it again
[2021-08-25T04:47:39Z] * midfavila shrugs
[2021-08-25T04:48:25Z] <midfavila> in an ideal world there would be a free hardware implementation of the lisp machines, but alas
[2021-08-25T04:48:29Z] <acheam> noocsharp: I was convinced at "the whole security community is deception with the king of lies at the chief researcher"
[2021-08-25T04:48:43Z] <midfavila> i mean, he's not 100% wrong
[2021-08-25T04:48:57Z] <consolers> bittorrent is to only to track content - to reliably know which ip has which part of which content
[2021-08-25T04:49:13Z] <midfavila> most people in le securidee "community" are stuck-up assholes who couldn't tell you the difference between a pipe and a socket
[2021-08-25T04:49:17Z] <consolers> bitcoin is the exact opposite of anonymous - it tracks every transaction - non-scalably
[2021-08-25T04:49:26Z] <midfavila> not to mention they have the gall to self-label as "hackers"
[2021-08-25T04:49:29Z] <consolers> and unmasks the owner everytime it is converted
[2021-08-25T04:49:36Z] <consolers> unsustainable
[2021-08-25T04:49:50Z] <midfavila> tbf bitcoin was never developed to be private
[2021-08-25T04:49:54Z] <consolers> all these are funded by those own the bandwidth and hardware
[2021-08-25T04:50:07Z] <consolers> like the more retards use them their purpose is served
[2021-08-25T04:50:36Z] <midfavila> dash and monero seem interesting, but I haven't looked into crypto much.
[2021-08-25T04:51:55Z] <consolers> i've removed almost all of firefox sync and telemetry from mozilla but the remote-settings client still tries to contact it though it cant use it
[2021-08-25T04:52:04Z] <consolers> i.e. outgoing telemetry
[2021-08-25T04:52:21Z] <midfavila-laptop> shit I just realized
[2021-08-25T04:52:24Z] <midfavila-laptop> it's 2am
[2021-08-25T04:52:27Z] <midfavila-laptop> i need to log off soon
[2021-08-25T04:52:32Z] <consolers> okbai
[2021-08-25T04:52:35Z] <consolers> me too
[2021-08-25T06:34:27Z] <testuser[m]> Does lto work with clang for anyone on default kiss ? It fails for me cuz it tries to load the llvm gold plugin
[2021-08-25T06:34:34Z] <testuser[m]> https://termbin.com/n4vo
[2021-08-25T06:53:36Z] <testuser[m]> works with lld though, maybe it never did work with bfd
[2021-08-25T12:06:57Z] <testuser[m]> riteo https://github.com/kisslinux/kiss/pull/261
[2021-08-25T12:09:05Z] <omanom> https://norvig.com/lispy2.html midfavila best of both worlds ;)
[2021-08-25T12:39:35Z] <micro_O> phoebos nice site and stack. also like the blog post style
[2021-08-25T12:52:15Z] <phoebos> micro_O: thanks! it's all copied from acheam, git-bruh, and june
[2021-08-25T13:00:05Z] <acheam> phoebos: i'm curious what of mine you actually copied
[2021-08-25T13:01:48Z] <acheam> also your index.html is gitignored, but still tracked
[2021-08-25T13:03:38Z] <acheam> actually I have no clue how this script works
[2021-08-25T13:04:00Z] <phoebos> your ~~design~~
[2021-08-25T13:04:08Z] <phoebos> oop I tagged myself
[2021-08-25T13:04:24Z] <acheam> oh nvm nvm, gen-index generates blog/index.html, not index.html
[2021-08-25T13:04:27Z] <phoebos> acheam: the blog/index.html is gitignored
[2021-08-25T13:04:40Z] <acheam> ohh yeah it all makes sense now
[2021-08-25T13:04:58Z] <acheam> I missed all the blog/ because stagit shows it in a kind of confusing tree
[2021-08-25T13:05:13Z] <acheam> (one more reason to use cgit)
[2021-08-25T13:05:16Z] <phoebos> yeah
[2021-08-25T13:05:39Z] <acheam> thanks for the reminder I need to learn mdoc
[2021-08-25T13:05:39Z] <phoebos> when I get round to it, I'll either fork stagit or use cgit
[2021-08-25T13:05:46Z] <phoebos> but I like the static pages
[2021-08-25T13:05:49Z] <acheam> heres my take:
[2021-08-25T13:05:59Z] <phoebos> mdoc is really cool
[2021-08-25T13:06:08Z] <acheam> as you add more and more functionality and repos to stagit, the size and time it takes to generate the pages just gets too long
[2021-08-25T13:06:13Z] <acheam> and you have to manage regeneration, etc
[2021-08-25T13:06:17Z] <acheam> cgit is install and forget it
[2021-08-25T13:06:24Z] <acheam> and it comes with all the functionality you could want
[2021-08-25T13:06:49Z] <phoebos> how long are you talking? my post-receive hooks take max 2 seconds
[2021-08-25T13:07:19Z] <testuser[m]> Push a mirror of linux kernel
[2021-08-25T13:07:20Z] <testuser[m]> Then see
[2021-08-25T13:07:31Z] <testuser[m]> Or kiss community
[2021-08-25T13:07:32Z] <phoebos> ofc for the kernel lmao
[2021-08-25T13:07:38Z] <acheam> 2 seconds now
[2021-08-25T13:07:43Z] <phoebos> my repos aren't anything like that
[2021-08-25T13:07:48Z] <acheam> but they will be eventually
[2021-08-25T13:07:54Z] <phoebos> stagit can also cache
[2021-08-25T13:07:57Z] <acheam> and if you fork it to add functionality
[2021-08-25T13:07:57Z] <testuser[m]> 5s
[2021-08-25T13:08:09Z] <acheam> no point in caching if you fork it to add functionality
[2021-08-25T13:08:13Z] <acheam> because the old pages won't have that
[2021-08-25T13:08:18Z] <acheam> and its difficult to maange
[2021-08-25T13:08:19Z] <acheam> hi micro_O
[2021-08-25T13:08:33Z] <acheam> hi midfavila-laptop*
[2021-08-25T13:08:41Z] <midfavila-laptop> morning
[2021-08-25T13:08:47Z] <acheam> damn hexchat, doesn't prioritize newly-joined people
[2021-08-25T13:08:47Z] <testuser[m]> Hi laptop
[2021-08-25T13:09:04Z] <acheam> its good to see midfavila's laptop having some autonomy
[2021-08-25T13:09:20Z] <midfavila-laptop> okay I'm leaving for another month
[2021-08-25T13:09:25Z] <midfavila-laptop> this is enough #kisslinux
[2021-08-25T13:09:27Z] <midfavila-laptop> >:V
[2021-08-25T13:09:35Z] <acheam> there is never enough #kisslinux
[2021-08-25T13:09:52Z] <midfavila-laptop> there is always too much #kisslinux
[2021-08-25T13:10:54Z] <midfavila-laptop> this is an intervention acheam
[2021-08-25T13:11:05Z] <midfavila-laptop> your irc addiction is out of control
[2021-08-25T13:11:17Z] <phoebos> midfavila would know
[2021-08-25T13:11:31Z] <midfavila-laptop> hush
[2021-08-25T13:11:32Z] <acheam> yeah I don't trust a laptop to intervene on a computing thing
[2021-08-25T13:11:47Z] <omanom> conflict of interests
[2021-08-25T13:11:49Z] <acheam> get midfavila in here and its a different story
[2021-08-25T13:11:52Z] <acheam> exactly omanom
[2021-08-25T13:11:52Z] <midfavila-laptop> >:c
[2021-08-25T13:12:02Z] <phoebos> acheam: so after adding features, it takes longer the first time to regenerate. I'm ok with that
[2021-08-25T13:12:20Z] <acheam> for all we know, midfavila's laptop is running a matrix or xmpp server
[2021-08-25T13:12:38Z] <midfavila-laptop> i'm going back to bed lmao
[2021-08-25T13:12:46Z] <phoebos> lmao
[2021-08-25T13:13:07Z] <acheam> phoebos: well it depends on what changes you make
[2021-08-25T13:13:10Z] <acheam> but yeah
[2021-08-25T13:13:16Z] <acheam> its a tradeoff that over time you might rethink
[2021-08-25T13:13:29Z] <acheam> but if you're fine with it now, by all means do it
[2021-08-25T13:13:34Z] <acheam> stagit is a fun and hackable codebase
[2021-08-25T13:13:39Z] <phoebos> ^
[2021-08-25T13:13:48Z] <acheam> well, somewhat fun
[2021-08-25T13:14:07Z] <acheam> large chunks of html in C code isn't fun
[2021-08-25T13:14:11Z] <acheam> neither is libgit2
[2021-08-25T13:14:11Z] <phoebos> better than cgit i'll wager
[2021-08-25T13:14:18Z] <acheam> yes lol
[2021-08-25T13:14:32Z] <acheam> i'd reccomend using june's cgit fork if you do switch btw
[2021-08-25T13:14:54Z] <acheam> zx2c4 hasn't even merged any patches for cgit in a really long time
[2021-08-25T13:14:58Z] <phoebos> yeah, that's something that can be read from some kind of input, would make it muh better(TM)
[2021-08-25T13:15:15Z] <phoebos> coolio. what did june add?
[2021-08-25T13:15:24Z] <acheam> mostly just fixes
[2021-08-25T13:15:26Z] <acheam> cleaning things up
[2021-08-25T13:15:32Z] <acheam> like making the RSS feeds valid XML
[2021-08-25T13:15:38Z] <phoebos> oof
[2021-08-25T13:15:56Z] <acheam> i just use the obsd package though because im lazy
[2021-08-25T15:18:25Z] <micro_O> anyone know of a modern/hipster replacement for cut? can be in any language but c, go, rust, or python
[2021-08-25T15:18:54Z] <micro_O> I am trying to complete this unholy alias: jc ls | gron | rg filename | cut -d'"' -f2
[2021-08-25T15:28:06Z] <dilyn> sed :V
[2021-08-25T15:36:21Z] <ithuriel> Hello all. Has anyone had trouble installing packages with correct permissions? I noticed yesterday that what I install either ends up with 700 or 600 permissions
[2021-08-25T15:38:13Z] <ithuriel> I tried downgrading kiss but had the same problem. Nothing in my kiss-hook changes anything in kiss. So I'm not entirely sure if it's me or not.
[2021-08-25T15:39:53Z] <omanom> awk's gsub could work too micro_O
[2021-08-25T15:40:11Z] <omanom> awk 'gsub(/"/, "", $2) {print}' something like that
[2021-08-25T15:42:58Z] <acheam> ithuriel: kiss version?
[2021-08-25T15:43:32Z] <acheam> could be umask related?
[2021-08-25T15:46:48Z] <ithuriel> Yes that seems to be it. Apparently I sourced a file that changed my umask to 077. Thanks
[2021-08-25T16:00:04Z] <cot> haha, packages are finally getting README files?
[2021-08-25T16:04:59Z] <midfavila> https://www.kleinbottle.com/meter_tall_klein_bottle.html
[2021-08-25T16:05:08Z] <midfavila> have you ever wanted an 18000 dollar klein bottle
[2021-08-25T16:05:59Z] <testuser[m]> no
[2021-08-25T16:06:15Z] <midfavila> oh okay
[2021-08-25T16:06:25Z] <midfavila> there are klein steins too if that's more your thing
[2021-08-25T16:07:45Z] <kyxor> well boys I am going out today on a 7 day business trip, sya in a week :)
[2021-08-25T16:08:03Z] <kyxor> bye
[2021-08-25T16:19:18Z] <phoebos> cya
[2021-08-25T16:19:26Z] <phoebos> https://felipec.wordpress.com/2013/11/04/init/
[2021-08-25T16:19:52Z] <phoebos> reminds me of kisslinux/init
[2021-08-25T16:21:58Z] <acheam> gah, ruby init?
[2021-08-25T16:22:38Z] <acheam> wow thats a bloated init, ruby, depending on systemd, cgroups, etc
[2021-08-25T16:22:50Z] <acheam> interesting though
[2021-08-25T16:47:48Z] <testuser[m]> What are #kisslinux's thoughts on docker / other container software like podman
[2021-08-25T16:54:36Z] <noocsharp> things that exist solely because package management sucks
[2021-08-25T16:55:25Z] <noocsharp> i suppose also because it's painful to enforce principle of least privilege on plain linux
[2021-08-25T16:56:17Z] <acheam> docker does make deployments very easy
[2021-08-25T16:56:24Z] <acheam> i used to use it a lot
[2021-08-25T16:56:55Z] <testuser[m]> I was thinking of running some js crap on my server
[2021-08-25T16:57:21Z] <testuser[m]> That's the only thing I'd need docker etc for
[2021-08-25T16:57:31Z] <acheam> my solution has been to stop hosting web services
[2021-08-25T16:57:33Z] <omanom> https://blog.z3bra.org/2016/03/hand-crafted-containers.html
[2021-08-25T16:57:54Z] <testuser[m]> I could use bubblewrap too i guess
[2021-08-25T16:57:58Z] <testuser[m]> Make a debian chroot
[2021-08-25T16:58:06Z] <testuser[m]> But docker is more convenient
[2021-08-25T16:58:51Z] <testuser[m]> acheam: do you know a non-js conferencing program
[2021-08-25T16:59:01Z] <testuser[m]> With screen sharing etc
[2021-08-25T16:59:24Z] <acheam> unfortuantely not
[2021-08-25T16:59:29Z] <acheam> I just use meet.jit.si
[2021-08-25T17:02:49Z] <testuser[m]> Btw does anyone here do freelancing ?
[2021-08-25T17:03:00Z] <testuser[m]> I wonder how dylan earns a living, heard he dropped out of school at 13 or 14
[2021-08-25T17:07:14Z] <testuser[m]> https://leanpub.com/u/dylanaraps here
[2021-08-25T17:13:58Z] <acheam> i kind of doubt he's making millions off of the pure bash bible
[2021-08-25T17:14:39Z] <testuser[m]> The link was the source for the dropout claim
[2021-08-25T17:14:45Z] <testuser[m]> Not the income source lol
[2021-08-25T17:14:54Z] <acheam> My understanding was that he still worked jobs to make ends meet while doing programming stuffs
[2021-08-25T17:14:57Z] <acheam> oh lol
[2021-08-25T17:15:01Z] <phoebos> he still has that patreon
[2021-08-25T17:15:08Z] <acheam> which is like $60/yr
[2021-08-25T17:15:21Z] <phoebos> and there were those kiss branded hats and shit
[2021-08-25T17:15:23Z] <acheam> he details his life a lot more in now deleted posts
[2021-08-25T17:15:29Z] <acheam> git log his personal website and the kiss website
[2021-08-25T17:15:44Z] <testuser[m]> Yeah there were some images aswell
[2021-08-25T17:15:45Z] <testuser[m]> In an issue
[2021-08-25T17:15:57Z] <acheam> he has a flickr
[2021-08-25T17:16:00Z] <acheam> with lots of pics
[2021-08-25T17:44:29Z] <midfavila> jfc guys
[2021-08-25T17:44:32Z] <midfavila> it's 40C here
[2021-08-25T17:44:38Z] <midfavila> kill me please
[2021-08-25T17:47:56Z] <acheam> rip
[2021-08-25T17:49:32Z] <noocsharp> wait, outside?
[2021-08-25T17:49:47Z] <midfavila> outside it's a little less
[2021-08-25T17:49:52Z] <midfavila> 36~ with humidity
[2021-08-25T17:50:00Z] <midfavila> but my building's boiler pipes run through my walls
[2021-08-25T17:50:09Z] <midfavila> so it's always hot and gross in my apartment
[2021-08-25T17:50:41Z] <noocsharp> high outside is 98 today
[2021-08-25T17:50:57Z] <midfavila> in commie non-freedom units pls
[2021-08-25T17:51:22Z] <noocsharp> 36.6666
[2021-08-25T17:51:36Z] <midfavila> 'bout the same as here then. that sucks
[2021-08-25T17:52:03Z] <noocsharp> but i have ac
[2021-08-25T17:52:11Z] <midfavila> jelly xwx
[2021-08-25T17:52:21Z] <midfavila> I just take cold showers every hour or so
[2021-08-25T17:52:35Z] <noocsharp> it's a pleasant 78 inside
[2021-08-25T17:52:48Z] <midfavila> so what's that
[2021-08-25T17:52:50Z] <midfavila> like, mid 20s?
[2021-08-25T17:52:56Z] <midfavila> i don't often work with fahrenheit
[2021-08-25T17:53:01Z] <noocsharp> > doesn't have gnu units installed
[2021-08-25T17:53:09Z] <midfavila> stfu >:c
[2021-08-25T17:53:29Z] <acheam> units isnt gnu specific
[2021-08-25T17:53:48Z] <midfavila> well, it's not on my system
[2021-08-25T17:53:50Z] <acheam> unfortunately no history section in the manpage
[2021-08-25T17:53:50Z] <noocsharp> whoa, it comes preinstalled on openbsd
[2021-08-25T17:53:53Z] <acheam> yep
[2021-08-25T17:54:02Z] <midfavila> i should probably set up some conversion routines on my PC
[2021-08-25T17:54:06Z] <omanom> subtract 32 and then divide by 2 gets me close enough to not care about error
[2021-08-25T17:54:49Z] <noocsharp> bsd units it can't do nonlinear conversions tho
[2021-08-25T17:54:58Z] <omanom> like for 98F i would say "ehhh, a little more than 33C"
[2021-08-25T17:56:28Z] <acheam> i cant figure out how to use units lol
[2021-08-25T17:56:46Z] <midfavila> a program like ascii but for units would be useful
[2021-08-25T17:56:52Z] <midfavila> i should write that
[2021-08-25T18:12:51Z] <acheam> general purpose programming language written in rust: https://github.com/antimony-lang/antimony
[2021-08-25T18:13:00Z] <acheam> midfavila: ascii?
[2021-08-25T18:17:13Z] <phoebos> ascii(1)
[2021-08-25T18:17:18Z] <phoebos> v useful
[2021-08-25T18:17:43Z] <phoebos> 9base has it
[2021-08-25T18:20:49Z] <acheam> ah its a plan9 thing
[2021-08-25T18:21:19Z] <acheam> so it just converts the input into an int and returns it?
[2021-08-25T18:23:34Z] <acheam> fun fact: on clang -Weverything exists
[2021-08-25T18:23:57Z] <micro_O> anyone try bootstrapping kiss with cproc? https://sr.ht/~mcf/cproc/
[2021-08-25T18:24:05Z] <acheam> cproc cant compile linux
[2021-08-25T18:24:15Z] <acheam> but it can compile gcc
[2021-08-25T18:24:18Z] <acheam> which can compile linux
[2021-08-25T18:24:32Z] <acheam> oasis bootstraps like that
[2021-08-25T18:24:40Z] <acheam> i cant see any reason why kiss cant do that
[2021-08-25T18:24:50Z] <phoebos> without any args, ascii prints a table of the ASCII characters with their hex value
[2021-08-25T18:25:14Z] <acheam> oh thats helpful
[2021-08-25T18:26:00Z] <ang> I usually use ascii(7)
[2021-08-25T18:26:26Z] <acheam> but is ascii(7) /interactive/
[2021-08-25T18:26:51Z] <noocsharp> most things would require patches to build with cproc
[2021-08-25T18:27:08Z] <acheam> they can be stolen from oasis though
[2021-08-25T18:27:27Z] <noocsharp> good luck getting openssl to build
[2021-08-25T18:39:53Z] <dilyn> mid, you wrote a f to c temp converter in the first chapter of k&r
[2021-08-25T18:40:01Z] <dilyn> u can dew eeeeeettt
[2021-08-25T18:41:05Z] <acheam> how is your knr going dilyn
[2021-08-25T18:42:45Z] <dilyn> sh
[2021-08-25T18:42:49Z] <dilyn> it's fine
[2021-08-25T18:42:53Z] <dilyn> slow and steady
[2021-08-25T18:58:53Z] <midfavila> acheam ascii can also handle hex and octal and can return the numeric value of a given ASCII character
[2021-08-25T18:59:02Z] <midfavila> it's a very useful tool
[2021-08-25T18:59:28Z] <midfavila> I wish I could muster the willpower to work on K&R but this heat makes me want to just die
[2021-08-25T20:45:41Z] <acheam> testuser[m]: oh nice, you're listed in the privacy redirect list extension's list of reddit instances
[2021-08-25T21:15:13Z] <travankor> oasis bootstraps like that -> but how do you bootstrap cproc? :p
[2021-08-25T21:29:22Z] <midfavila> he uses raw willpower, a steady hand, and a magnetized needle
[2021-08-25T21:40:34Z] <acheam> travankor: cproc can compile itself :)
[2021-08-25T21:40:37Z] <acheam> but yeah I get what you mean
[2021-08-25T21:40:43Z] <acheam> I dont think you can bootstrap it from nothing
[2021-08-25T21:40:55Z] <acheam> maybe if you try reaaaaaaly hard you could come up with something
[2021-08-25T21:41:12Z] <midfavila> i mean, you could iteratively create your own basic toolchain starting by punching hex into an ELF
[2021-08-25T21:41:19Z] <midfavila> but that would be pretty fucking hardcore
[2021-08-25T21:49:04Z] <travankor> gnu mes actually does that
[2021-08-25T21:49:34Z] <travankor> acheam: but gcc can bootstrap itself as well, right? maybe it would be more useful for clang though
[2021-08-25T21:49:35Z] <micro_O> mes look so cool, like a pragmatic version of urbit
[2021-08-25T21:50:01Z] <midfavila> by bootstrap in this case I think acheam means completely independent of pre-existing tools
[2021-08-25T21:50:26Z] <micro_O> well, then you gotta start with a concrete lathe i think http://opensourcemachinetools.org/wordpress/concrete-lathe/
[2021-08-25T21:50:38Z] <micro_O> you can use that to start making drill bits to extract your own metals
[2021-08-25T21:53:28Z] <micro_O> fast forward after your cabin has reliable electricity, and you can start making your own silicon http://sam.zeloof.xyz/second-ic/
[2021-08-25T21:53:55Z] <micro_O> anyone have an intel 4004 we can run kiss on?
[2021-08-25T21:54:23Z] <midfavila> i mean I was going to try with an 80386
[2021-08-25T21:54:25Z] <dilyn> this is actually landley's next project; creating an elaborate system which can bootstrap itself under itself and arrive at a minimal linux environment, simply starting from raw physical materials
[2021-08-25T22:54:08Z] <acheam> The only dependency is a 1000 person Dev team
[2021-08-25T23:14:42Z] <acheam> I don't think that I will ever settle into a software setup that I like
[2021-08-25T23:15:00Z] <acheam> honestly I'm envious of people who can use a piece of software for 10yrs
[2021-08-25T23:15:15Z] <acheam> switching back to CLI programs from GTK2 programs
[2021-08-25T23:15:33Z] <acheam> although this time I'm not getting caught up in ricing, and trying to use defaults and black+white as much as possible