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💾 Archived View for gemini.ctrl-c.club › ~phoebos › logs › kisslinux-2021-07-20.txt captured on 2024-05-26 at 16:14:54.
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[2021-07-20T00:01:52Z] <GalaxyNova> oml
[2021-07-20T00:01:56Z] <GalaxyNova> I just found out about this
[2021-07-20T00:02:07Z] <GalaxyNova> microsoft announced windows 365
[2021-07-20T00:02:19Z] <GalaxyNova> and I'm scared
[2021-07-20T00:07:38Z] <noocsharp> nobody's making you use it
[2021-07-20T00:07:44Z] <noocsharp> yet...
[2021-07-20T00:17:10Z] <cem> Isn't it just a glorified qemu
[2021-07-20T00:17:55Z] <cem> vps except it's not private
[2021-07-20T00:22:34Z] <noocsharp> i imagine that it doesn't run when you're not using it
[2021-07-20T00:53:58Z] <konimex> windows 365? OS-as-a-service?
[2021-07-20T01:05:22Z] <acheam> OSAAS
[2021-07-20T01:05:28Z] <acheam> has a good ring to it
[2021-07-20T01:26:16Z] <sad_plan> and what might 'OSAAS' be?
[2021-07-20T01:26:28Z] <sad_plan> os as a service?
[2021-07-20T01:26:38Z] <sad_plan> nvrm
[2021-07-20T01:28:43Z] <sad_plan> has anyone encountered that suddenly one of your firefox profiles is suddenly not able to connect to the internet? mine suddenly does...
[2021-07-20T01:32:47Z] <sad_plan> ah, its one of my extensions appearantly
[2021-07-20T02:35:20Z] <acheam> wow I didn't expect this much crud on obsd
[2021-07-20T02:35:39Z] <acheam> try to install a browser and it pulls in dbus, avahi, gettext, etc
[2021-07-20T02:35:54Z] <acheam> kiss-bsd is looking more and more likely
[2021-07-20T02:37:42Z] <sad_plan> oh. I though obsd was more minimal than that tbh..
[2021-07-20T02:38:03Z] <sad_plan> in any case, kiss-bsd sounds exciting
[2021-07-20T02:38:28Z] <acheam> also for whatever reason the coil whine is baaaad
[2021-07-20T02:38:40Z] <acheam> could be a coincedanece though
[2021-07-20T02:39:50Z] <sad_plan> kernel adjustment possibly?
[2021-07-20T02:43:27Z] <acheam> also many many dotfiles in ~
[2021-07-20T02:43:51Z] <sad_plan> thats no supprise. but that should be configurable, as its on linux
[2021-07-20T02:48:53Z] <noocsharp> acheam: which browser?
[2021-07-20T02:51:43Z] <acheam> noocsharp: any of the big ones
[2021-07-20T02:51:55Z] <acheam> I tried chromium, otter, and settled on firefox
[2021-07-20T02:54:08Z] <noocsharp> yeah, i don't think obsd people care too much about reducing dependencies
[2021-07-20T02:54:19Z] <noocsharp> to the degree that kiss does
[2021-07-20T02:54:41Z] <necromansy> as long as its secure yeah they don't mind
[2021-07-20T03:13:12Z] <GalaxyNova> > nobody's making you use it
[2021-07-20T03:13:22Z] <GalaxyNova> We'll se in another 5 years noocsharp xD
[2021-07-20T03:14:14Z] <GalaxyNova> I think it's very likely for actual operating systems to just become chrome bootloaders that connect to a cloud OS
[2021-07-20T03:15:14Z] <noocsharp> that's what people said 5 years ago
[2021-07-20T03:16:54Z] <GalaxyNova> ok
[2021-07-20T03:17:09Z] <GalaxyNova> i said that 5 years ago too lmao
[2021-07-20T03:17:12Z] <GalaxyNova> but this time it's real
[2021-07-20T03:21:57Z] <sad_plan> noocsharp: are you using just the -d flag for sdhcp? I can only get it to start, if im already using dhcpcd, after stopping dhcpcd, and then start sdhcp. if I uninstall dhcpcd, I for some reason cant start sdhcp.. 
[2021-07-20T03:23:58Z] <sad_plan> wait, maaybe I got it. sdhcp -d -e wpa_supplicant -i wlan0, does that sound about right?
[2021-07-20T03:36:40Z] <sad_plan> nooppe
[2021-07-20T03:38:03Z] <noocsharp> the man page says -f keeps it in the foreground
[2021-07-20T03:38:09Z] <noocsharp> which is what you want
[2021-07-20T03:38:45Z] <sad_plan> ah, I though the other way around. 
[2021-07-20T03:42:06Z] <dilyn> konimex: hey, try downloading libsodium for me will ya
[2021-07-20T03:42:07Z] <sad_plan> now we're talking. many thanks noocsharp
[2021-07-20T03:43:34Z] <noocsharp> no prob, next time i'd recommend just reading the man page
[2021-07-20T03:43:51Z] <noocsharp> suckless man pages tend to be pretty concise
[2021-07-20T03:45:47Z] <sad_plan> I usually do, but I sometimes struggle to decypher them, if theyre somewhat wierdly formatted. I could only read it in the same format as in the html page, which at first glance didnt really tell me too much.
[2021-07-20T03:46:26Z] <sad_plan> arent they using mandoc or something to open them? mandoc is atleast mentioned on their site as recommended.. but if they use something else, I would obviously fetch that aswell
[2021-07-20T03:46:48Z] <konimex> dilyn: package manager fault, will open an issue to dylan
[2021-07-20T03:46:53Z] <dilyn> i already got it lol
[2021-07-20T03:47:03Z] <acheam> heres a fun quirk: obsd gtk defaults to emacs bindings
[2021-07-20T03:47:25Z] <dilyn> just wanted a sanity check hehe
[2021-07-20T03:47:48Z] <dilyn> we found the bug folx. Everyone who was up in arms over this source file parsing business, rejoice. you have been vindicated
[2021-07-20T03:48:57Z] <noocsharp> sad_plan: if you install the man page in your package, `man sdhcp` should work fine
[2021-07-20T03:49:08Z] <noocsharp> if you have mandoc installed
[2021-07-20T03:50:29Z] <noocsharp> dilyn: that's hilarious
[2021-07-20T03:51:31Z] <dilyn> I was utterly baffled 
[2021-07-20T03:52:36Z] <noocsharp> it's so easy to construct tarballs now that break the package manager...
[2021-07-20T03:55:30Z] <sad_plan> I dont belive I was able to open it anyway that way. does it matter if Its installed elsewhere than the makefiles default?
[2021-07-20T03:55:54Z] <noocsharp> where is it installed to?
[2021-07-20T03:55:56Z] <sad_plan> I also used cp install of make install aswell, cause the makefile wasnt as I wanted it..
[2021-07-20T03:56:21Z] <sad_plan> in /usr/share
[2021-07-20T03:56:35Z] <sad_plan> but makefile wans /usr/local/share/man/ iirc
[2021-07-20T03:56:47Z] <dilyn> it would go in /usr/share/man/manX/sdhcp.X
[2021-07-20T03:57:00Z] <sad_plan> aah
[2021-07-20T03:57:03Z] <noocsharp> where X = 1
[2021-07-20T03:57:09Z] <sad_plan> I figured
[2021-07-20T03:57:16Z] <sad_plan> lemme fix that quickly
[2021-07-20T03:57:55Z] <testuser[m]> Hi
[2021-07-20T03:58:31Z] <noocsharp> welcome
[2021-07-20T03:58:54Z] <sad_plan> fixed, and working. 
[2021-07-20T03:59:31Z] <noocsharp> nice
[2021-07-20T05:52:31Z] <dilyn> konimex: dylan fixed it; you could either change the source (https://download.libsodium.org/libsodium/releases/libsodium-1.0.18.tar.gz) or prefix the sources line in question with raw:
[2021-07-20T05:54:27Z] <konimex> yeah I'll do it later
[2021-07-20T06:39:20Z] <testuser[m]> anyone got a rust openssl binary
[2021-07-20T06:39:23Z] <testuser[m]> for musl
[2021-07-20T07:07:36Z] <riteo> epic, I fell asleep
[2021-07-20T07:07:55Z] <riteo> I'll go now, bye!
[2021-07-20T07:11:01Z] <GalaxyNova> welp
[2021-07-20T07:11:41Z] <GalaxyNova> tried kiss-reset, completely rebuilt the core packages, deleted ~/.cache, and still sway is broken
[2021-07-20T07:12:04Z] <GalaxyNova> apparently kiss is moving away from gzip too
[2021-07-20T07:12:11Z] <testuser[m]> no
[2021-07-20T07:12:11Z] * GalaxyNova sighs
[2021-07-20T07:12:14Z] <testuser[m]> its the same thing
[2021-07-20T07:12:16Z] <testuser[m]> just renamed
[2021-07-20T07:12:46Z] <GalaxyNova> Either way I'm forced to take a break from kiss
[2021-07-20T07:13:38Z] <msk[m]> other compositors have similar issues?
[2021-07-20T07:15:29Z] <GalaxyNova> which other compositor should i try
[2021-07-20T07:15:40Z] <testuser[m]> xorg
[2021-07-20T07:16:00Z] <GalaxyNova> xorg in kiss has a dead future
[2021-07-20T07:17:12Z] <testuser[m]> no one is forcing you to use dylan's repo
[2021-07-20T07:17:30Z] <testuser[m]> but community will be an issue
[2021-07-20T07:18:54Z] <msk[m]> kiss-xorg has their own mini community
[2021-07-20T07:21:28Z] <necromansy> theres definitely enough people who either arent able to or dont wanna transition
[2021-07-20T07:21:30Z] <necromansy> so yeah
[2021-07-20T12:15:51Z] <cot> oh no, why does gtk+3.0-dev have 73(!) dependencies on Alpine
[2021-07-20T12:18:15Z] <testuser[m]> cuz its built with  both x and ayyland support i guess
[2021-07-20T12:18:23Z] <testuser[m]> and dbus/atk stuff
[2021-07-20T12:49:27Z] <micro_O> cool, now parsing sources is even more complicated :(
[2021-07-20T12:51:15Z] <micro_O> instead of them being just a url, its a url, except for these special keys, unless those keys have a backslash...
[2021-07-20T12:52:03Z] <micro_O> at this point why not just make the sources file its own script and just use normal shell semantics for variables
[2021-07-20T12:52:40Z] <micro_O> at least it would be consistent instead of its own thing
[2021-07-20T12:52:52Z] <micro_O>  /rant
[2021-07-20T13:07:21Z] <micro_O> I guess I can make a post-update hook that does all the interpolation on the files ahead-of-time
[2021-07-20T13:07:34Z] <micro_O> and then a pre-update that does git-reset
[2021-07-20T13:07:44Z] <micro_O> or maintain a patch to patch it out
[2021-07-20T14:44:05Z] <rio6> I feel they should be separated by space not question mark
[2021-07-20T14:45:42Z] <rio6> <url> [name] [no-extract|@branch|#commit|whatever]
[2021-07-20T14:46:14Z] <micro_O> rio6 i like that idea
[2021-07-20T15:03:45Z] <acheam> I think i'm going to take a little break from the minimalism for a bit
[2021-07-20T15:04:00Z] <acheam> (typing this from hexchat in xfce)
[2021-07-20T15:04:23Z] <acheam> hexchat is actually really comfy
[2021-07-20T15:04:27Z] <testuser[m]> what did you install
[2021-07-20T15:04:33Z] <acheam> obsd
[2021-07-20T15:04:43Z] <testuser[m]> nice
[2021-07-20T15:04:55Z] <acheam> it was always my intention to use obsd in the long run
[2021-07-20T15:05:07Z] <acheam> i just didnt realize that they added support for my wifi card until yesterday
[2021-07-20T15:06:22Z] <testuser[m]> do bsds patch out dbus and stuff or is it still there
[2021-07-20T15:06:47Z] <acheam> nop
[2021-07-20T15:06:51Z] <acheam> the bloat is real
[2021-07-20T15:40:43Z] <noocsharp> i use xfce on my desktop
[2021-07-20T15:50:14Z] <acheam> on kiss? are you using periish's repos?
[2021-07-20T15:50:21Z] <acheam> or oasis
[2021-07-20T15:52:06Z] <noocsharp> arch
[2021-07-20T15:52:21Z] <acheam> nice
[2021-07-20T15:59:59Z] <testuser[m]> https://www.openwall.com/lists/oss-security/2021/07/20/1
[2021-07-20T16:00:36Z] <acheam> ouch
[2021-07-20T16:01:34Z] <acheam> i guess the high number of inodes could be a barrier? idk what the default is
[2021-07-20T16:02:09Z] <testuser[m]> https://www.qualys.com/2021/07/20/cve-2021-33910/denial-of-service-systemd.txt
[2021-07-20T16:02:10Z] <testuser[m]> Bruh
[2021-07-20T16:02:23Z] <acheam> we are safe :)
[2021-07-20T16:02:44Z] <acheam> but my servers aren't :(
[2021-07-20T16:02:56Z] <testuser[m]> > not running KISS on your servers
[2021-07-20T16:04:51Z] <acheam> i'll probably migrate to obsd on them soon
[2021-07-20T16:04:58Z] <acheam> or freebsd because its easier on digital ocean
[2021-07-20T16:06:15Z] <testuser[m]> I like vultr cuz you can install kiss from liveusb instead of replacing a running system
[2021-07-20T16:06:26Z] <acheam> oh nice
[2021-07-20T16:16:34Z] <claudia> https://github.com/kisslinux/kiss/commit/bfd75cc6d588f9e9437a63be29ef11648fa2eac1
[2021-07-20T16:17:09Z] <claudia> dylan is open for more alternative utilities.
[2021-07-20T16:21:36Z] <claudia> acheam: Have you already tried to write a image to usb stick or mount a usb stick?
[2021-07-20T16:22:02Z] <acheam> claudia: all of the above
[2021-07-20T16:22:15Z] <acheam> i have it fully installed and stuff
[2021-07-20T16:22:45Z] <claudia> I dont like how the device nodes are  named and that you have to use the rawdevice? when you write e.g an image to usb.
[2021-07-20T16:22:59Z] <claudia> Linux does that much _easier_ ^^
[2021-07-20T16:25:03Z] <claudia> With all the work on kiss in the recent times, it feels much snappier.
[2021-07-20T16:25:42Z] <testuser[m]> DYLAN please add axel
[2021-07-20T16:25:50Z] <testuser[m]> I cant make a shithub issue since on phone
[2021-07-20T16:30:22Z] <acheam> axel is real nice
[2021-07-20T16:30:33Z] <acheam> i wonder where mid is
[2021-07-20T16:30:40Z] <acheam> he's the one who introduced axel to me
[2021-07-20T16:30:46Z] <testuser[m]> Me too
[2021-07-20T16:30:58Z] <acheam> and whatever happened to KISS_DL?
[2021-07-20T16:34:31Z] <micro_O> acheam I think its called KISS_GET now, according to that commit claudia shared above
[2021-07-20T16:34:48Z] <acheam> oh i didnt see that
[2021-07-20T16:34:57Z] <acheam> nice
[2021-07-20T16:36:01Z] <acheam> oh man, i feel like a heathen
[2021-07-20T16:36:06Z] <acheam> im using GTK everything
[2021-07-20T16:36:13Z] <micro_O> can someone explain to me how `set -- -fLO` works, i see it a lot in `kiss`, but like, what is it actually setting?
[2021-07-20T16:36:20Z] <micro_O> man set doesn't really explain things
[2021-07-20T16:36:38Z] <ang> it sets the positional parameters
[2021-07-20T16:36:53Z] <micro_O> ang: for all subsequent commands?
[2021-07-20T16:37:06Z] <ang> for the script itself
[2021-07-20T16:37:48Z] <ang> or for functions, which have their own set of positional parameters
[2021-07-20T16:38:41Z] <micro_O> so for lines 427-431 in that commit, you are saying it sets the params for `pkg_source_get()`?
[2021-07-20T16:38:55Z] <micro_O> and then the next invocation of `pkg_source_get` would get those automatically?
[2021-07-20T16:39:13Z] <ang> link pls
[2021-07-20T16:39:24Z] <micro_O> or is it the next command executed, which would be "$cmd_get"?
[2021-07-20T16:39:25Z] <micro_O> https://github.com/kisslinux/kiss/commit/bfd75cc6d588f9e9437a63be29ef11648fa2eac1#diff-89d19d63941a517f4921ec8496fbf07c4b444537352cc585461a1b4de469fde5R427-R431
[2021-07-20T16:40:28Z] <ang> it sets the positional parameters and then calls $cmd_get with them via "$@"
[2021-07-20T16:40:58Z] <noocsharp> nnnnn/5
[2021-07-20T16:41:04Z] <ang> "$@" expands to all positional parameters
[2021-07-20T16:41:13Z] <acheam> so why not just call it with those flags?
[2021-07-20T16:41:17Z] <micro_O> so `set -- anything you want here` will actually set "$@" for the next call invoked
[2021-07-20T16:41:25Z] <ang> DRY I guess?
[2021-07-20T16:41:34Z] <ang> why type out $cmd_get 3 times
[2021-07-20T16:41:56Z] <micro_O> could i kind of think of `set --` as `@=` ?
[2021-07-20T16:41:58Z] <ang> no, not for the next call invoked
[2021-07-20T16:42:05Z] <ang> you can just use it with "$@"
[2021-07-20T16:42:14Z] <ang> set -- hello world
[2021-07-20T16:42:16Z] <ang> echo "$@"
[2021-07-20T16:42:35Z] <ang> the -- is not even required there but w/e
[2021-07-20T16:43:13Z] <ang> also acheam, the exit code of $cmd_status is handled there
[2021-07-20T16:43:20Z] <ang> you don't want to type that block out 3 times
[2021-07-20T16:44:04Z] <acheam> ah
[2021-07-20T16:44:19Z] <ang> since posix sh has no arrays (yet), the positional parameters can be used to store arguments for programs
[2021-07-20T16:44:58Z] <testuser[m]> Set never takes any - or -- params ?
[2021-07-20T16:45:20Z] <micro_O> oooh the -- is part of the set
[2021-07-20T16:45:41Z] <acheam> ang: can't you just set the variable, and then not quote it
[2021-07-20T16:45:42Z] <acheam> like
[2021-07-20T16:45:54Z] <acheam> arg=-l -t --long-arg
[2021-07-20T16:45:59Z] <acheam> ls $arg
[2021-07-20T16:46:06Z] <micro_O> okay so `set` just avoids named parameters. its a lot like registers in function calls
[2021-07-20T16:46:25Z] <ang> you could but that's rather dirty and obviously does not work as soon as an argument contains space/tab/newline
[2021-07-20T16:46:48Z] <ang> because it would be word split into separate arguments
[2021-07-20T16:47:34Z] <acheam> hmm yeah
[2021-07-20T16:48:14Z] <ang> testuser[m] only in my example you can omit the -- because none of the arguments start with a dash
[2021-07-20T16:48:20Z] <ang> but set is used to set shell options
[2021-07-20T16:48:48Z] <ang> like set -o vi, set -euxf etc
[2021-07-20T16:50:12Z] <ang> so if you want to set the positional parameters to something starting with a dash, you need to signal `set` the end of the options by using --
[2021-07-20T16:52:06Z] <ang> acheam: try this, `set "line 1" "line 2"; printf '%s\n' "$@"` and compare with `printf '%s\n' $@`
[2021-07-20T16:52:45Z] <acheam> got it
[2021-07-20T16:52:51Z] <acheam> thanks
[2021-07-20T16:54:36Z] <ang> ok nicu
[2021-07-20T16:56:37Z] <ang> not the best example because $@ is special when it's quoted
[2021-07-20T16:57:46Z] <ang> `printf '%s\n' "$1" "$2"` and those 2 variables unquoted is more clear I guess but you got it already
[2021-07-20T16:58:45Z] <ang> thanks everybody for attending my shell lesson
[2021-07-20T18:14:30Z] <testuser[m]> https://github.com/kisslinux/repo/commit/a5548c7ea0f82364801f0cf1c967ba76a1e25b1b#r53742226
[2021-07-20T18:14:40Z] <testuser[m]> Soon TM ?
[2021-07-20T18:16:15Z] <acheam> nice
[2021-07-20T18:21:10Z] <noocsharp> is there a distro that only does only statically linked binaries (except where it's not possible)?
[2021-07-20T18:21:38Z] <acheam> oasis?
[2021-07-20T18:22:04Z] <acheam> or do you mean a more traditional, binary based distro?
[2021-07-20T18:22:12Z] <acheam> i figured you'd already have considered oasis lol
[2021-07-20T18:22:19Z] <noocsharp> yeah, traditional package manager
[2021-07-20T18:22:43Z] <acheam> not to my knowlege
[2021-07-20T18:22:51Z] <acheam> whats so bad about dynamic linking :p
[2021-07-20T18:23:13Z] <noocsharp> you can disappear /lib
[2021-07-20T18:23:34Z] <acheam> rm -rf /usr/lib, i dare you
[2021-07-20T18:23:48Z] <noocsharp> maybe on a static distro
[2021-07-20T18:23:53Z] <noocsharp> but not on here
[2021-07-20T18:24:02Z] <acheam> i always knew that you were weak
[2021-07-20T18:26:32Z] <noocsharp> you do it
[2021-07-20T18:27:00Z] <acheam> just did
[2021-07-20T18:27:04Z] <acheam> doas rm -rf /lib
[2021-07-20T18:27:13Z] <noocsharp> rm -rf /usr/lib now
[2021-07-20T18:27:25Z] <noocsharp> as root
[2021-07-20T18:27:44Z] <acheam> i wont show weakness by listening to you
[2021-07-20T18:28:11Z] <noocsharp> you have show yourself to be weak by not listening to me
[2021-07-20T18:28:15Z] <noocsharp> shown*
[2021-07-20T18:28:56Z] <acheam> if you insist
[2021-07-20T18:29:03Z] <acheam> you never said we couldnt use a chroot
[2021-07-20T18:29:24Z] <noocsharp> damn, you got me
[2021-07-20T18:34:00Z] <micro_O> for enabling provides, i could imagine depends format being `build|run package [package [package]]`, instead of `package [make]`
[2021-07-20T18:37:08Z] <micro_O> so instead of having an optional trailing 'make', have a required leading 'build' or 'run'
[2021-07-20T18:38:04Z] <micro_O> then the rest of the space-separated packages would also kind of have an implicit 'priority'
[2021-07-20T18:42:10Z] <cem> it seems dylan's idea on static packaging system has changed completely
[2021-07-20T18:42:31Z] <acheam> indeed
[2021-07-20T18:42:43Z] <acheam> im interested to see what cem thinks
[2021-07-20T18:43:04Z] <cem> im not going to keep compatibility with all these changes
[2021-07-20T18:43:18Z] <cem> especially with the recent change to the sources file
[2021-07-20T18:46:29Z] <cem> repology stats have been broken for carbs just because of that change
[2021-07-20T18:47:24Z] <cem> I had "VERSION" in a package that was a literal string and it broke the parser lmao
[2021-07-20T18:49:09Z] <cem> https://github.com/repology/repology-updater/commit/94aa821
[2021-07-20T18:50:20Z] <acheam> lol
[2021-07-20T18:51:29Z] <msk[m]> rip my dream of making a program called VERSION
[2021-07-20T19:01:52Z] <cem> msk[m]: rip
[2021-07-20T19:08:12Z] <micro_O> cem similar boat with my tools, they are just going to bail on any sources file with VERSION|... all those other strings
[2021-07-20T19:08:45Z] <micro_O> which is kind of a shame because for sources files that actually are plain text and would work, I can no longer be sure
[2021-07-20T19:08:58Z] <micro_O> (downside of the substitution being opt-out by default, instead of opt-in)
[2021-07-20T19:10:23Z] <micro_O> If single '\' character is invalid for url or filepath, and that was used to opt-in to string interpolation, then it would at least give tools something to work with
[2021-07-20T19:13:30Z] <cem> yeah, honestly that change is the single worst thing to happen to the packaging system
[2021-07-20T19:15:43Z] <cem> it just destroys the notion of static, easy-to-parse, easy-to-interact packages
[2021-07-20T19:16:32Z] <cem> i think the best course of action will be to revert it
[2021-07-20T19:17:03Z] <cem> but i doubt it
[2021-07-20T19:17:29Z] <acheam> it wont happen, dylan has made that very clear
[2021-07-20T19:17:36Z] <acheam> but really, its just a sed call away
[2021-07-20T19:18:24Z] <acheam> in ASD, I was using it, but more casually, not going through and changing all the packages at once, but rather just using when creating new packages, or bumping them
[2021-07-20T19:19:13Z] <cem> maybe i should clean up and release crm one of these days :D
[2021-07-20T19:19:31Z] <acheam> sorry, remind me what crm is again?
[2021-07-20T19:19:39Z] <acheam> oh nvm i remember
[2021-07-20T19:19:59Z] <cem> yeah, it's my version update tool
[2021-07-20T19:20:54Z] <cem> I also use macros because updating some packages are annoying, but I believe that the outcome should always be static
[2021-07-20T19:52:49Z] <micro_O> yeah i think its tricky to separate out 'this use case is invalid' from 'this use case is valid, but maybe there are different ways to achieve this same goal'
[2021-07-20T19:53:27Z] <micro_O> one thing i'll do is thing 'is this build-time, or run-time' to decide if something should be a tool for myself to use, versus a feature to be delivered
[2021-07-20T19:53:49Z] <micro_O> it shows up a lot around packaging and releasing (outside of linux package manager context)
[2021-07-20T19:55:24Z] <micro_O> though I appreciate the insistence that VERSION macros are supposed to be opt-in, they are only opt-in for the maintainers of packages. they are strictly necessary for everyone else.
[2021-07-20T19:56:08Z] <micro_O> I think it can also be achieved by some sort of `lint`/`format` tool
[2021-07-20T19:57:28Z] <micro_O> where lint would just display 'hey, i see that in the last commit, you had a version-string-like that matched in both VERSION and SOURCES, but there is no longer a match'
[2021-07-20T19:57:57Z] <micro_O> and `fix` would do something like the current runtime behaviour, at build-time
[2021-07-20T19:59:00Z] <micro_O> anyway, there are 1000x ways to implement this, and I would not be surprised if continued discussion would be wearing down or frustrating dylan
[2021-07-20T19:59:25Z] <micro_O> so like i say every day and then don't actually do, i'll shut up about this 
[2021-07-20T20:09:55Z] <acheam> oof 0x0.st is down
[2021-07-20T20:11:32Z] <micro_O> acheam try ix.io as an alternative
[2021-07-20T20:11:46Z] <acheam> i use my own thing
[2021-07-20T20:11:51Z] <acheam> l.armaanb.net
[2021-07-20T20:12:19Z] <acheam> just a shame that 0x0 is down
[2021-07-20T21:29:45Z] <acheam> re: the windows 365 discussion earlier
[2021-07-20T21:29:57Z] <acheam> i've been using remote computing a lot in the last few weeks for some scientific modeling stuff
[2021-07-20T21:30:02Z] <acheam> and its actually not bad at all
[2021-07-20T21:30:16Z] <acheam> i prefer it to running it locally because I don't have to install a bunch of crap on my local machine
[2021-07-20T22:25:39Z] <dilyn> this poor fucking variable gets renamed every day https://github.com/kisslinux/kiss/commit/62e3d9426d20fa3c567eedbac66a1dcbf0e9673d#diff-89d19d63941a517f4921ec8496fbf07c4b444537352cc585461a1b4de469fde5L714-R714
[2021-07-20T22:45:38Z] <noocsharp> acheam: crappy software is crap whether you're using it remotely or not
[2021-07-20T22:46:39Z] <acheam> yes but then its crappy software a few miles away from me, not half an inch below my fingertips
[2021-07-20T22:48:22Z] <noocsharp> ideally the crappy software could be replaced with non-crappy software
[2021-07-20T22:48:52Z] <noocsharp> is it like matlab or mathematica or something?
[2021-07-20T22:50:30Z] <acheam> noocsharp: python stuff
[2021-07-20T22:50:32Z] <GalaxyNova> holy shit i'm stupid xD
[2021-07-20T22:50:37Z] <GalaxyNova> sway wasn't broken at all
[2021-07-20T22:50:50Z] <GalaxyNova> my keyboard super key is not registering anything
[2021-07-20T22:51:13Z] <acheam> lots of it depends on crappy c stuff that isnt very portable... also no decent IDEs that aren't qt5
[2021-07-20T22:51:21Z] <noocsharp> acheam: the switch to julia for scientific computing cannot come fast enough
[2021-07-20T22:51:43Z] <acheam> keep in mind, that when I say IDEs, i have a fairly specific use case that vis doesnt fit
[2021-07-20T22:51:50Z] <acheam> julia looks cool
[2021-07-20T22:51:57Z] <noocsharp> i had to use jupyter notebooks for a class
[2021-07-20T22:51:58Z] <noocsharp> not fun
[2021-07-20T22:52:44Z] <noocsharp> python is like the most mediocre language for everything, yet it is used for everything
[2021-07-20T22:54:04Z] <acheam> i packaged some stuff for kiss to get jupyter notebooks and some basic scipy stuff going
[2021-07-20T22:54:29Z] <acheam> but it wasnt worth it for more and more complex packages
[2021-07-20T22:54:41Z] <acheam> so i just use the university computing cluster
[2021-07-20T22:55:05Z] <acheam> which is just centos/xfce + really cool automated module loading
[2021-07-20T23:00:25Z] <noocsharp> nice