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💾 Archived View for gemini.ctrl-c.club › ~phoebos › logs › kisslinux-2021-06-10.txt captured on 2024-05-26 at 16:15:50.
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[2021-06-10T01:57:36Z] <acheam> TIL xdg-open is just a shell script
[2021-06-10T01:57:55Z] <riteo> oh cool
[2021-06-10T01:58:10Z] <riteo> a lot of things are actually just scripts too
[2021-06-10T02:10:30Z] <acheam> dkms comes to mind
[2021-06-10T02:10:37Z] <acheam> but its *bash*
[2021-06-10T02:11:02Z] <acheam> ugh freedektop, meet shellcheck please
[2021-06-10T02:11:14Z] <acheam> there are literal errors in here
[2021-06-10T02:12:04Z] <acheam> there are literally 240 errors in this 1050 line script
[2021-06-10T02:13:48Z] <acheam> ach this one has 370 errors in 1447 lines
[2021-06-10T02:14:11Z] <acheam> meanwhile: kiss has 0 errors in 1680 lines
[2021-06-10T02:14:19Z] <acheam> granted there are a few shellcheck ignores in there
[2021-06-10T02:14:51Z] <noocsharp> send patches
[2021-06-10T02:15:06Z] <riteo> I don't know, will they care?
[2021-06-10T02:15:15Z] <acheam> okay, 19 errors without the shellcheck ignores
[2021-06-10T02:15:17Z] <acheam> still very good
[2021-06-10T02:15:27Z] <noocsharp> if they don't you still have dkms without shellcheck errors
[2021-06-10T02:15:28Z] <acheam> noocsharp: I would, but the thing it, I don't really care
[2021-06-10T02:15:41Z] <noocsharp> that's what i guessed
[2021-06-10T02:17:12Z] <acheam> oh I was miscalculating the errors
[2021-06-10T02:17:13Z] <acheam> my bad
[2021-06-10T02:17:23Z] <acheam> they're all inflated a bit
[2021-06-10T02:20:47Z] <noocsharp> how could you
[2021-06-10T02:20:57Z] <noocsharp> i trusted you
[2021-06-10T02:21:02Z] <necromansy> im sorry!
[2021-06-10T02:21:24Z] <noocsharp> lmao
[2021-06-10T02:22:40Z] <necromansy> also good grief i was looking at getting xdg-open recently
[2021-06-10T02:23:05Z] <necromansy> coz ive installed a 9front VM and the plumbing is big poggers
[2021-06-10T02:26:41Z] <noocsharp> i just have a little plumbing shell script
[2021-06-10T02:27:24Z] <necromansy> i should write one yeah
[2021-06-10T02:31:44Z] <acheam> anyone packaged gst-libav?
[2021-06-10T03:53:55Z] <riteo> well, I'll go for now, bye!
[2021-06-10T05:01:48Z] <testuser[m]1> Hi
[2021-06-10T05:09:46Z] <illiliti> nice to see you again
[2021-06-10T05:20:52Z] <acheam> hi
[2021-06-10T08:45:07Z] <illiliti> https://github.com/illiliti/tsort
[2021-06-10T08:45:55Z] <testuser[m]1> nice!
[2021-06-10T08:46:21Z] <illiliti> i feel like i have brain damage :))
[2021-06-10T08:47:27Z] <illiliti> the globals are madness
[2021-06-10T08:47:57Z] <illiliti> you have to deal with them because POSIX doesn't have `local` feature
[2021-06-10T08:51:20Z] <illiliti> also, note that `,`, `:`, ` ` characters are banned
[2021-06-10T08:51:42Z] <illiliti> if you pass them to input, the output may be screwed
[2021-06-10T08:52:18Z] <illiliti> this is limitation that can't be resolved
[2021-06-10T09:03:26Z] <schillingklaus> can't the bad characters be escaped?
[2021-06-10T09:05:49Z] <illiliti> probably
[2021-06-10T09:49:14Z] <chaffity> I'm using a namespace to to run glibc programs (MongoDB for work), and it works brilliantly, but I'm having an issue taking this one step further by using overlay mounts to simplify the flow... Has anybody had any success with overlay mounts?
[2021-06-10T09:49:35Z] <testuser[m]1> wdym overlay mounts ?[27;2;13~
[2021-06-10T09:49:51Z] <chaffity> To clarify, I'm creating an overlay, but I just get "Out of memory" from mount()
[2021-06-10T09:50:16Z] <chaffity> testuser[m]1 mounting a union filesystem
[2021-06-10T09:51:45Z] <chaffity> For proprietary glibc stuff I have a separate /usr directory that I'm currently mounting on top of my regular /usr directory
[2021-06-10T09:52:07Z] <testuser[m]1> have you looked into bubblewrap ? i think it might satisfy your case
[2021-06-10T09:53:58Z] <chaffity> Hrm, user namespaces is another thing I actually had issues with... Running "unshare -r" reports an error, and I'm not sure if that's a BusyBox bug, or another issue entirely
[2021-06-10T09:54:10Z] <chaffity> Thanks for the link though, will check this out more
[2021-06-10T09:54:27Z] <testuser[m]1> maybe it's an issue in your kernel config ?
[2021-06-10T09:54:29Z] <testuser[m]1> CONFIG_USER_NS=Y
[2021-06-10T09:55:43Z] <chaffity> You hero
[2021-06-10T09:56:49Z] <chaffity> That's one less thing, and bubblewrap (whilst a lot bigger than my lowly single file "glibc" environment jobbie) seems to be along the lines of something else I was pondering on a while back, thanks!
[2021-06-10T09:58:35Z] <testuser[m]1> its pretty easy to use, example https://git.git-bruh.duckdns.org/dotfiles/file/bin/steam.html with the flags.sh file in the same dir
[2021-06-10T09:58:36Z] <testuser[m]1> np
[2021-06-10T10:15:21Z] <testuser[m]1> hey claudia
[2021-06-10T10:18:26Z] <claudia> aloha testuser[m]1 !
[2021-06-10T11:30:43Z] <soliwilos> Installing libudev-zero 0.5.1 creates a symlink loop between /usr/lib/libudev.so.1 and /usr/lib/libudev.so
[2021-06-10T11:37:06Z] <soliwilos> kiss seems unable to fix the symlink loop when re-installing 0.4.8 unless I manually remove /usr/lib/libudev.so
[2021-06-10T11:37:30Z] <illiliti> yet another bug in kiss
[2021-06-10T11:37:43Z] <illiliti> please open an issue
[2021-06-10T11:37:51Z] <testuser[m]1> i get that with ncurses too sometimes
[2021-06-10T11:37:55Z] <illiliti> https://github.com/kiss-community/kiss
[2021-06-10T14:13:54Z] <midfavila> fuck, I totally blacked out last night... today's gonna suck. .-.
[2021-06-10T14:15:53Z] <acheam> uh
[2021-06-10T14:15:57Z] <acheam> feel better soon?
[2021-06-10T14:16:28Z] <midfavila> sorry, shouldn't be irl-posting. i just recall that I needed to look in here for something...
[2021-06-10T14:17:25Z] <illiliti> https://envs.sh/s5.jpg
[2021-06-10T14:17:34Z] <midfavila> bugs, right. I believe I encountered one relating to GCC. using busybox tar results in a failure, claiming that the liblto plugin would be an unsafe symlink
[2021-06-10T14:17:59Z] <midfavila> and using libarchive results in such an amazing series of segfaults that it crashes X, or in the case of a tty, boots you to login
[2021-06-10T14:19:49Z] <midfavila> fwiw, when using bbox tar, KISS reports that said plugin is missing from the manifest but fails sanely
[2021-06-10T14:20:41Z] <testuser[m]1> This is during installation of the gcc tarball ?
[2021-06-10T14:20:49Z] <testuser[m]1> I guess uploading it somewhere would hell
[2021-06-10T14:20:51Z] <testuser[m]1> Help
[2021-06-10T14:20:54Z] <midfavila> yeah, specifically extraction
[2021-06-10T14:21:03Z] <midfavila> can't upload it rn, gotta build it again on my laptop
[2021-06-10T14:21:08Z] <midfavila> which is going to take like three hours
[2021-06-10T14:21:09Z] <midfavila> :|
[2021-06-10T14:21:23Z] <testuser[m]1> oof
[2021-06-10T14:21:30Z] <midfavila-laptop> the 800mhz blues
[2021-06-10T14:22:19Z] <midfavila> right, that's just started. 
[2021-06-10T14:52:26Z] <chaffity> testuser[m]1 thanks to you pointing out my missing "CONFIG_USER_NS=Y" I now have DRM content streaming in Firefox... KISS can now be my absolute main driver for work and personal use \ (*o*) /
[2021-06-10T14:52:48Z] <chaffity> Today is a good day indeed
[2021-06-10T15:04:48Z] <illiliti> welcome aboard
[2021-06-10T15:20:10Z] <testuser[m]1> Nice
[2021-06-10T15:46:35Z] <illiliti> https://lists.sr.ht/~bl4ckb0ne/boson/<20210531034342.2e7udqe2bo2s2y4f%40kuro.my.domain>
[2021-06-10T17:41:26Z] <dilyn> I was just looking at that meson replacement last week, glad to see somebody did something! 
[2021-06-10T17:41:31Z] <dilyn> I'm gonna have to check it out...
[2021-06-10T17:53:36Z] <acheam> muon requires meson to build
[2021-06-10T17:53:38Z] <acheam> which is....
[2021-06-10T17:53:39Z] <acheam> annoying
[2021-06-10T17:53:50Z] <acheam> idk if it can build itself
[2021-06-10T17:54:13Z] <acheam> its especially silly because upstream used a makefile, and they rewrote it for muon
[2021-06-10T18:02:29Z] <omanom> >muon requires meson to build
[2021-06-10T18:02:35Z] <omanom> its become the very thing it sought to destroy!
[2021-06-10T18:15:19Z] <dilyn> lol yeah at least the other one had a configure script 
[2021-06-10T18:15:35Z] <dilyn> oh jeez i can't read... 
[2021-06-10T18:36:07Z] <acheam> dilyn: i was surprised to see make as an implicit dep
[2021-06-10T18:36:08Z] <acheam> lots of packages have "make make"
[2021-06-10T18:36:08Z] <acheam> are you at all interested in differentiating between make implementations, or will "make" always refer to gnu make?
[2021-06-10T18:53:39Z] <dilyn> do a lot of packages have make make? 
[2021-06-10T18:54:56Z] <dilyn> the reason for marking toolchain related things as implicit is so that nobody has to worry about what toolchain any user has. unless you specifically need something (like lld requiring llvm, or ccls requiring clang, etc) 
[2021-06-10T21:31:40Z] <zenomat> 90% of the used k&r offers are more expensive than a new copy...
[2021-06-10T21:34:09Z] <zenomat> the cheapest one is 22 euro, but i'd have to import it from the usa...
[2021-06-10T22:34:20Z] <GalaxyNova> I don't think packages should imply that Git or Busybox is installed
[2021-06-10T22:34:33Z] <GalaxyNova> assume*
[2021-06-10T22:38:09Z] <rio6> if it doesn't need busybox specifically (ie, using coreutils, toybox, etc still works), I don't think busybox should be a dependency
[2021-06-10T22:39:37Z] <GalaxyNova> i guess
[2021-06-10T22:39:53Z] <GalaxyNova> but generally i believe it would be better to list dependencies explicitly
[2021-06-10T22:40:03Z] <GalaxyNova> and not assume anything about the user's system
[2021-06-10T22:41:00Z] <GalaxyNova> rio6: If a package were to use only POSIX stuff I could see that
[2021-06-10T22:44:56Z] <omanom> i consider busybox and alternatives to fall under https://k1sslinux.org/wiki/kiss/style-guide#1202
[2021-06-10T22:45:48Z] <omanom> busybox is there, and if it isn't that means either a broken system or the /user/ explicitly decided to use an alternative.  meaning the user should know they might need to adjust packages to support their alternative choice.
[2021-06-10T22:46:27Z] <omanom> i think this also satisfies one of the guidestones: "The user is smart, the package manager is dumb.  The package manager is written under the assumption that the user has some kind of functioning brain in their skull"
[2021-06-10T22:46:42Z] <midfavila-laptop> big agree
[2021-06-10T22:47:05Z] <midfavila-laptop> GalaxyNova, you can rest assured that outside of sed -i, everything in community and core should be posix
[2021-06-10T22:47:40Z] <midfavila-laptop> at least in my experience, I've never encountered otherwise
[2021-06-10T22:47:57Z] <midfavila-laptop> (ignoring, of course, packages with explicit build deps)
[2021-06-10T22:48:41Z] <midfavila-laptop> also, zenomat, you can always acquire a copy from Library Genesis
[2021-06-10T22:49:04Z] <GalaxyNova> What I'm worried about is that things like Gkiss will be harder to maintain because all the packages will start excluding binutils or gcc from dependencies
[2021-06-10T22:49:13Z] <GalaxyNova> or GNU make
[2021-06-10T22:49:57Z] <dilyn> It's implicit precisely BECAUSE the user can change them, and we want to allow them to change them without having to fork every package 
[2021-06-10T22:50:33Z] <dilyn> for instance, see wyverkiss. the only reason it can leverage submodules is because we don't explicitly state 'binutils required' 
[2021-06-10T22:50:56Z] <dilyn> at least, leverage them to the degree that it does
[2021-06-10T22:51:09Z] <dilyn> most of the packages get to be symlinks
[2021-06-10T22:52:03Z] <midfavila-laptop> i'm still not sure what the problem here is...
[2021-06-10T22:53:16Z] <midfavila-laptop> implicit dependencies aren't a problem. by establishing a base system and only working with things in that base, portability is ensured. if the user deviates from that base in some critical way (e.g removing their build toolchain), that's on them if they end up wearing egg on their face
[2021-06-10T22:53:50Z] <dilyn> having a functioning toolchain be an implicit dependency on a source based distro is an obvious thing to me
[2021-06-10T22:54:01Z] <dilyn> the only one i take issue with is git, and it's not even really a dependency 
[2021-06-10T22:54:18Z] <midfavila-laptop> meh, you don't need to have a build toolchain as long as there are binary packages available
[2021-06-10T22:54:25Z] <midfavila-laptop> i still intend to experiment with that... 
[2021-06-10T22:54:29Z] <dilyn> you can not have git just fine -- it's just implicit so we don't need it for git sources
[2021-06-10T22:55:01Z] <dilyn> i mean, sure. but the user who does that is smart enough to do it. and in the case of using binaries... you aren't specifying toolchain components
[2021-06-10T22:56:09Z] <midfavila-laptop> well, yeah. i was just saying that KISS can be used as a binary distribution without much, if any difficulty
[2021-06-10T22:56:12Z] * midfavila-laptop shrugs
[2021-06-10T22:56:19Z] <dilyn> i mean, yes