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Nothing infuriates me more than people whpo turn their noses up at political dialouge. I mean, I can understan politics cna be jaring for many, but, at the end of the day your toothless opinions about the starwards franchise will achive nothing and get you no where.
You either stand for something or fall for anything.
2 years ago · 👍 figbert
4.) People can care about politics and affect it without engaging in dialogue by enacting change in the things that affect politics (education, ethics, philosophy, religion/theology, etc.)
5.) You sound like you are implying a certain sociological theory that assumes all of the government and party groups have a common goal. I do not agree with this theory.
[2/2] · 2 years ago
I'm not going to engage in this argument beyond a summary of *my* points:
1.) People hate "political dialogue" (note, not the same as politics) because rather than people engaging the issues, people tend to attack others personally.
2.) OR they are morally indifferent to other people's issues, and that's the result of individualism and diminished empathy, and perhaps being too afraid of the world that one blocks out the evils of it.
3.) You're oversimplifying how politics works with the class-strugles stuff. There's more to it than that, including counter-cultures and how philosophies have affected politics.
[1/2] ... · 2 years ago
...I only really lobby personal insults when people are being snarky at me. It wasn't even that big of an insult. I wasn't even really trying to be a massive asshole, but, if the shoe fits wear it. · 2 years ago
@krixano Where did I say that being an asshole is what is making people a-political? If really want to understand why people are a-political you have to actually look at the history of capitalism as an economic system and the labor movment and if you read pamphlets like "Crisis of democracy" You will quickly understand that the capitalist class see's an organized labor movment (obviously) as a thread to their political and systemic power and as such they have corrupted the political system and educational system into pushing this "end of history" narrative. I've alreayd written about this on my blog a ton, actually. It's much deeper than "He was mean to me" Beisdes... · 2 years ago
If your argument is that not talking about politics is not doing anything about politics, then you are sadly mistaken. Just because people are not so arrogant to think they know everything about politics and political discussion does not mean they don't have values that they care about and use to vote or create change in the world.
Now if you are just talking about not caring about the issues of other people - that's as much of an ethical issue as it is a political one, imo. The core cause of this has nothing to do with politics, it has to do with indifference. · 2 years ago
Oh, so you just think you're going to get people to engage by doing the very same thing that you just said the capitalist class is using to condition people to hate and remain ignorant of politics? Interesting....
This is precisely what I was talking about with ethics and morals. Using personal attacks on someone to argue a position is wrong, period, and it's used mainly to get people on your side by making the other side look bad. Sometimes it can backfire and make you look bad, but sometimes it teaches people that it's okay to do this stuff, but *it's not okay*. · 2 years ago
I hope it's obvious to you now that I'm not one of the ones that just "ignores this shit" because I care very much about politics.
I *also* think that politics has been devoid of any ethics and morals for a very very long time, especially considering we have Florida here in the US that literally outlawed schools recognizing even the *existence* of people like me (I don't find it necessary to reveal what aspect of myself I'm talking about here, but people will probably know what I'm talking about). · 2 years ago
I never said that reactionary politics is not talking about politics, lol. I said that you standing by and doing nothing does allow it and give it room to grow. That is what I said. Divison of labor has nothing to do with what I was really saying. What I was saying is that there is a historical divison of opposing classes. · 2 years ago
People have been conditioned to understand politics this way because the ruling class; the capitalist class benifits from an ignorant population of workers with no solidarity and no understanding of lbaor history or collective labor power. That is why people have been conditioned to see politics this way and not as a historical struggle between two oppositing classes. I never said that political discourse has to be nice, or, should be nice, but, I never once did not argue against your point. Just me being an asshole while I do it doesn't inherently make me wrong. Frankly, you kind of came off a little flippant, too, so; Being mean doesn't make some one wrong that's on you. · 2 years ago
You suggest that people who don't talk about politics don't have an opinion on politics. Then you continue to say that people who don't have an opinion on politcs and don't engage the issues end up in reactionary politics that causes further damage.
Firstly, you don't have to talk about politics to have an opinion on things. Secondly, division of labor is an important thing because not everyone can know everything. Some people engage in ethics or some other field because that's what they are good at. This is why we have the ability to choose to not vote. Thirdly, reactionary politics is more complicated than simply not engaging with politics. · 2 years ago
Just FYI, your response to me pretty much demonstrated why people hate politics. Instead of arguing the point, you created a stereotype of me thinking I'm "enlightened" or whatever. You couldn't even discuss why people hate politics without doing the very things you say are not usually done in politics. · 2 years ago
And why do you think people have been "conditioned" to understand politics this way? Because it's what they clearly see from people.
I understand what you're trying to say - that politics is everything because politics is just people working out their opinions (although you throw in class strugles in there and oversimplify that greatly, imho, but anyways).
But the reality is this is not how politics usually plays out. The people who win in the end are the people willing to throw out their ethics and morals, or the ones who just don't have any to begin with. · 2 years ago
@marginalia See this is what I am talking about though: There's a type of double speak at play here because politics is not "People in suits arbitrating the laws of our country between eachother" That is a very myopic understanding of politics. Rather, politics is about the division between the ownership of capital and the labor of the working class of which we are all part of. This is what infuriates me so much because people have been conditioned to understand politics as the later and to think of politics as a usless struggle between "Blue guys and Red guys" When that's very far from the truth. · 2 years ago
@dingbat Human evolution and politics, or, at leat the development of politics are, to a degree, mutually exclusive. Politics have existed since the dawn of the agricultural revolution and the private ownership of capital and labor; The division of owner and owned. · 2 years ago
@Lykso this was not ment for people who are curious about politics, but, people who have a habit for very flippantly rejecting all political discussion and arrogantly acting like they are above it. I think you are being to forgiving here, lol. · 2 years ago
@lykso I ment "Starwars" I need to learn to proof read. My fault. · 2 years ago
... and as with all failed prophets, the conclusion the politically minded is that we aren't believing hard enough. Surely if we dig even deeper, we'll eventually get out of the hole. · 2 years ago
I just don't think politics does what it says on the box. It's in practice multi-level marketing for social hierarchy. All political schemes require the recruitment of more suckers for the original investors to make it big. I don't care for politics for the same reason I don't want to hear about your NFTs. If you examine politics as a whole, and compare ambitions with reality, you will note it really just doesn't deliver, pretty much ever, across the ideological spectrum. It's not that the left or the right is wrong, it appears politics as a whole is based on invalid premises. · 2 years ago
@comatoast: given that humans are an evolved species; at what point in our evolution would you say the concept of politics emerged? do you think that politics an abstract concept, or an emergent human trait? · 2 years ago
When I was a proselytizing Christian, I found the most effective way to convert someone wasn't to force them talk about Jesus. It was to make friends, show them love, live true to your ideals, and gently present your Jesus-centric viewpoint when appropriate. Conversely, telling someone that they needed Jesus and that they'd be going to hell if they didn't change their ways was a sure-fire way to slam that door shut for good.
I think talking with someone about "Starwards" is probably a stronger first step toward helping them "find politics" than yelling at them for being negligent. YMMV. · 2 years ago
The phrase "You either turn onto politics or politics turns on you" comes to mind. People like you believe you are the enlightened class that rises above all the rabble, but, the reality is your blind ignorance simply makes you responsible for the rise of reactionary politics in the first place. You can't simply ignore this shit and it will go away.
It's much deeper than that. · 2 years ago
Politics is the history of call struggle; The expression of the tension between mutually opposing classes of people in whatever epoch of history we find ourselves in. I don't understand this idea that "politics is just saying mean things to people and gaming 'the system' " when politcs is the expression of class will and the attempt to gain power by one class over another. In otherwords, these things do not just magically come from some unknown natural location, but, have historical tensions than have developed over time. · 2 years ago
Being extremely aggresive and personally attacking someone is literally part of the tradition of political dialogue, and has only subsided in recent times due to politicians actually having to take responsibility for what they say since they are usually being recorded.
It's also the tradition for politics to get involved in and corrupt religion and use it for their own means, as well as imperialism and killing off and subjecting people to their power, scapegoating groups of people for different problems to satisfy the revengeful public, denying the humanity of groups of people, remaining indifferent to the hardships of groups of people, and the list goes on. · 2 years ago
People can stand for something without getting into political dialogue. Politics isn't ethics. Politics is using rhetoric and assaults and lies to work the system and get people on your side, regardless of if it's ethical or not. Being against this *is* standing up for something. · 2 years ago