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[ANN] Flounder - a Gemini site builder/host

1. alex wennerberg (alex (a) alexwennerberg.com)

Hey all!

I've been working on a project based on Gemini that you might be
interested in:

=> https://flounder.online/

It's a simple website builder, kind of like Geocities for Gemini. I have
really enjoyed Gemini and the Gemini network and I wanted to create a
platform that made building static Gemini sites easy and accessible. I
was inspired by Solderpunk's work on Shizaru
(https://tildegit.org/solderpunk/shizaru/), where files are limited to
32KiB in size, which provides some interesting restrictions. I think
it's a cool way to get people into the "small web" who might be
interested in its principles politically or philosophically but lack the
technical abilities to use some of the existing tools. 

I also implement twtxt -- The twtxt protocol fits really well with
Gemini. It seems to be almost entirely inactive, but I think it's neat.

Right now, I'm only serving static content on Gemini via Agate. I want
to create more dynamic content (e.g. the homepage), but I haven't
prioritized that work yet. I also have yet to find a great way of
translating links between gemini / https (right now it's via proxy) It's
still very early in development, but it's usable and people seem to be
having fun so far. Feel free to join if you're interested!

You can find the Rust code here:
https://github.com/alexwennerberg/flounder I'd love any feedback or
contributions.

All the best,

Alex

Link to individual message.

2. colecmac (a) protonmail.com (colecmac (a) protonmail.com)

Hello,

Flounder looks awesome, nice work. It's a beautiful website, and
looks great on Gemini too. To my knowledge this is the first time
gemtext has been used like this outside Gemini, like as a generic
format.

> I want to create more dynamic content (e.g. the homepage), but
> I haven't prioritized that work yet.

That would be great, the first thing I tried to do was visit
flounder.online in my Gemini browser but it didn't work of course.
Otherwise it's a bit confusing.

> I also have yet to find a great way of translating links between
> gemini / https (right now it's via proxy)

Could you explain more? I don't know Rust but I'd be happy to
help idea-wise.

The twtxt protocol sounds cool, and good addition to the small web.

Finally, you should check out gemlog.blue if you haven't already, on
the Web and Gemini. It's a similar project, but with a slightly different
focus, as the posts are only available on Gemini.

Cheers,
makeworld

??????? Original Message ???????
On Friday, August 14, 2020 8:24 PM, alex wennerberg <alex at alexwennerberg.com> wrote:

> Hey all!
>
> I've been working on a project based on Gemini that you might be
> interested in:
>
> => https://flounder.online/
>
> It's a simple website builder, kind of like Geocities for Gemini. I have
> really enjoyed Gemini and the Gemini network and I wanted to create a
> platform that made building static Gemini sites easy and accessible. I
> was inspired by Solderpunk's work on Shizaru
> (https://tildegit.org/solderpunk/shizaru/), where files are limited to
> 32KiB in size, which provides some interesting restrictions. I think
> it's a cool way to get people into the "small web" who might be
> interested in its principles politically or philosophically but lack the
> technical abilities to use some of the existing tools.
>
> I also implement twtxt -- The twtxt protocol fits really well with
> Gemini. It seems to be almost entirely inactive, but I think it's neat.
>
> Right now, I'm only serving static content on Gemini via Agate. I want
> to create more dynamic content (e.g. the homepage), but I haven't
> prioritized that work yet. I also have yet to find a great way of
> translating links between gemini / https (right now it's via proxy) It's
> still very early in development, but it's usable and people seem to be
> having fun so far. Feel free to join if you're interested!
>
> You can find the Rust code here:
> https://github.com/alexwennerberg/flounder I'd love any feedback or
> contributions.
>
> All the best,
>
> Alex

Link to individual message.

3. alex wennerberg (alex (a) alexwennerberg.com)

> Flounder looks awesome, nice work. It's a beautiful website, and
> looks great on Gemini too. To my knowledge this is the first time
> gemtext has been used like this outside Gemini, like as a generic
> format.

Thank you/! /
> That would be great, the first thing I tried to do was visit
> flounder.online in my Gemini browser but it didn't work of course.
> Otherwise it's a bit confusing.

Based on my research, it looks like the most mature tool for this is Molly 
Brown with CGI --
getting it working might be a weekend project for me.

> Could you explain more? I don't know Rust but I'd be happy to
> help idea-wise.

Basically the issue is -- a common use case would be for someone to want 
to link another flounder page from their page, for example I might link
my friend juliet.flounder.online's page from alex.flounder.online. A user 
who is using Flounder through a web app may use the link https://juliet.flounder.online
which isn't ideal when accessing it through gemini, since the link brings 
them out of Gemini. I think the solution is to instruct users to use
gemini:// links for other Flounder pages (and maybe put something in the 
UI that encourages this) and then convert gemini://x.flounder.online
to https://x.flounder.online when rendering it over https (right now I use 
the mozz.us proxy). I could also force this translation by modifying 
users' text when they save a file with
an https://x.flounder.online link but I'm not a fan of that. Maybe I could 
create some sort of warning that explains this, or even better I could come up
with a way to let people use simple tags like @alex and then translate 
that into a gemini URL on gemini or an https url on https.

 ?> The twtxt protocol sounds cool, and good addition to the small web.

I think there was a discussion earlier in the mailing list that inspired my idea!

> Finally, you should check out gemlog.blue if you haven't already, on
> the Web and Gemini. It's a similar project, but with a slightly different
> focus, as the posts are only available on Gemini.

This is very cool! I'll definitely have to glean some ideas from this

Alex

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4. colecmac (a) protonmail.com (colecmac (a) protonmail.com)

> > That would be great, the first thing I tried to do was visit
> > flounder.online in my Gemini browser but it didn't work of course.
> > Otherwise it's a bit confusing.
>
> Based on my research, it looks like the most mature tool for this
> is Molly Brown with CGI -- getting it working might be a weekend
> project for me.

Good luck! There's also the Jetforce server which supports CGI very
well. It's written in Python.

> [url discussion]

I think encouraging all users to write gemini:// is not the way to go.
I feel like it's a potentially annoying UX point, and isn't meaningful
to anyone using flounder but not Gemini.

Personally I'd suggest letting people use whatever they want, and
translating on the fly if they're using the "wrong" protocol for the
request.

> a way to let people use simple tags like @alex and then translate that
> into a gemini URL on gemini or an https url on https.

This sounds pretty cool! I still the above is useful though.

gemlog.blue source code is here btw:
https://git.rawtext.club/sloum/gemlog.blue


Cheers,
makeworld

??????? Original Message ???????
On Saturday, August 15, 2020 12:13 PM, alex wennerberg <alex at 
alexwennerberg.com> wrote:

> > Flounder looks awesome, nice work. It's a beautiful website, and
> > looks great on Gemini too. To my knowledge this is the first time
> > gemtext has been used like this outside Gemini, like as a generic
> > format.
>
> Thank you!
> > That would be great, the first thing I tried to do was visit
> > flounder.online in my Gemini browser but it didn't work of course.
> > Otherwise it's a bit confusing.
>
> Based on my research, it looks like the most mature tool for this is 
Molly Brown with CGI --
> getting it working might be a weekend project for me.
>
> > Could you explain more? I don't know Rust but I'd be happy to
> > help idea-wise.
>
> Basically the issue is -- a common use case would be for someone to want 
to link another flounder page from their page, for example I might link
> my friend juliet.flounder.online's page from alex.flounder.online. A 
user who is using Flounder through a web app may use the link 
https://juliet.flounder.online
> which isn't ideal when accessing it through gemini, since the link 
brings them out of Gemini. I think the solution is to instruct users to use
> gemini:// links for other Flounder pages (and maybe put something in the 
UI that encourages this) and then convert gemini://x.flounder.online
> to https://x.flounder.online when rendering it over https (right now I 
use the mozz.us proxy). I could also force this translation by modifying 
users' text when they save a file with
> an https://x.flounder.online link but I'm not a fan of that. Maybe I 
could create some sort of warning that explains this, or even better I could come up
> with a way to let people use simple tags like @alex and then translate 
that into a gemini URL on gemini or an https url on https.
>
> ?> The twtxt protocol sounds cool, and good addition to the small web.
>
> I think there was a discussion earlier in the mailing list that inspired my idea!
>
> > Finally, you should check out gemlog.blue if you haven't already, on
> > the Web and Gemini. It's a similar project, but with a slightly different
> > focus, as the posts are only available on Gemini.
>
> This is very cool! I'll definitely have to glean some ideas from this
>
> Alex

Link to individual message.

5. alex wennerberg (alex (a) alexwennerberg.com)

On Sat Aug 15, 2020 at 10:41 AM PDT,  wrote:
> Personally I'd suggest letting people use whatever they want, and
> translating on the fly if they're using the "wrong" protocol for the
> request.
>
> > a way to let people use simple tags like @alex and then translate that
> > into a gemini URL on gemini or an https url on https.
>
> This sounds pretty cool! I still the above is useful though.

I'll experiment with some things and get some feedback from users. I
like the @ idea because it's consistent with the twtxt interface I
wrote. I appreciate your feedback!


> gemlog.blue source code is here btw:
> https://git.rawtext.club/sloum/gemlog.blue

Thanks!

Alex

Link to individual message.

6. Zach ☁︎ (zach (a) anemon.es)

Hey alex,

This looks super cool and almost exactly the kind of thing I?ve been 
meaning to build for my friends to use. Is there anywhere you?d 
particularly like help? I won?t pretend to be a rust expert (and def not a 
gemini expert), but I should be able to contribute here and there.

Also I?m wondering how flexible flounder could be? I?d love to modify it 
so anyone on the server could add + edit pages + folders anywhere on the 
server. Since it?d be used by a group of friends (who love + trust each 
other), you wouldn?t have to worry about people coming in destroying 
others? stuff. More just a fun way to collaboratively build a site rather 
than being segregated into separate user folders.

Let me know what you think, and obviously would be totally happy to 
implement that weirdness in a fork. Would love to jump in and contribute either way!

Cheers,
Zach

Link to individual message.

7. alex wennerberg (alex (a) alexwennerberg.com)

On Sat Aug 15, 2020 at 11:35 AM PDT, Zach ?? wrote:
> Hey alex,
>
> This looks super cool and almost exactly the kind of thing I?ve been
> meaning to build for my friends to use. Is there anywhere you?d
> particularly like help? I won?t pretend to be a rust expert (and def
> not a gemini expert), but I should be able to contribute here and there.

The Rust code is a little wonky -- I'm experimenting with writing a
little more "low-level" code than I usually would, not using an ORM,
relying less on libraries and frameworks, but I'd love some help. I put
together some GitHub issues. Side note -- I know GitHub is very
un-"small web", but I am not super happy with the alternatives yet, so
consider it a necessary evil for now.

> Also I?m wondering how flexible flounder could be? I?d love to
> modify it so anyone on the server could add + edit pages + folders
> anywhere on the server. Since it?d be used by a group of friends (who
> love + trust each other), you wouldn?t have to worry about people
> coming in destroying others? stuff. More just a fun way to
> collaboratively build a site rather than being segregated into separate
> user folders.

I had actually thought about this! My idea was that you could share a
page with other users so that they could edit it. It's a great idea, but
I also want to take an extremely conservative approach to adding new
features. Something I may implement down the road. Thanks for the
suggestion.


> Let me know what you think, and obviously would be totally happy to
> implement that weirdness in a fork. Would love to jump in and contribute
> either way!
>
> Cheers,
> Zach

Link to individual message.

8. Timur Ismagilov (bouncepaw2 (a) yandex.ru)

> To my knowledge this is the first time gemtext has been used like this 
outside Gemini, like as a generic format.

I feel obliged to tell you that my wiki engine was, in fact, the first 
application to implement gemtext outside gemini :)

=> https://github.com/bouncepaw/mycorrhiza

Fun fact: my gemtext implementation kinda contradicts the specification so 
it can better fit the whole wiki idea. It supports transclusion (a feature 
not easily implemented in an actual geminisphere), handles link urls 
differently (so it is easier to link other wiki pages, I call such links 
wiki links) and empty lines are handler roughly (they are ignored (the 
spec recommends rendering them with vertical space)).

~

Tried out the Flounder, it is really good!

=> https://bouncepaw.flounder.online/ My site

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9. alex wennerberg (alex (a) alexwennerberg.com)

Hey all -- just wanted to update you all that I put together a simple
Gemini homepage for Flounder -- gemini://flounder.online

I've got a small group of (mostly non-technical) users, but there's a
few active blogs on there.

Alex

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