💾 Archived View for gemini.ctrl-c.club › ~phoebos › logs › kisslinux-2023-04-01.txt captured on 2024-05-12 at 16:00:41.

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⬅️ Previous capture (2023-04-20)

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[2023-04-01T05:59:20Z] <sewn> hi
[2023-04-01T05:59:31Z] <testuser[m]> Hi
[2023-04-01T06:01:03Z] <sewn> oh man its April fools
[2023-04-01T06:01:14Z] <sewn> watch Dylan come back
[2023-04-01T07:49:14Z] <acidbong> just like last year 🗿
[2023-04-01T07:49:26Z] <acidbong> also good morning
[2023-04-01T10:41:34Z] <acidbong> if a package is present in two repos, how's the preference resolved: does kiss install the newer one or does it follow the order in which repos are listed?
[2023-04-01T11:07:32Z] <phoebos> acidbong: kiss always uses the first package found in KISS_PATH
[2023-04-01T11:08:13Z] <acidbong> like pacman then
[2023-04-01T12:28:18Z] <acidbong> clang-14 (from glasnost) says that -march=native isn't supported, is it because it doesn't recognize my architecture?
[2023-04-01T12:28:18Z] <acidbong> I'm running it in Termux on Android
[2023-04-01T14:07:33Z] <midfavila> SUP LOSERS
[2023-04-01T14:12:13Z] <illiliti> ARE YOU HIGH?
[2023-04-01T14:12:31Z] <midfavila> i mean, in a way. i just had three shots of espresso 
[2023-04-01T14:12:37Z] <midfavila> so hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
[2023-04-01T14:58:00Z] <sewn> ew
[2023-04-01T16:25:12Z] <testuser[m]> acidbong: native doesn't work for arm stuff i think
[2023-04-01T16:25:50Z] <acidbong> the Termux's own clang recognizes native
[2023-04-01T16:26:21Z] <acidbong> but there's a difference: it's been using clang 15 and only recently updated to clang 16
[2023-04-01T16:27:41Z] <acidbong> and the toolchain ends in android24 instead of Linux
[2023-04-01T16:29:06Z] <acidbong> instead of *musl or gnu, different libc
[2023-04-01T19:51:08Z] <midfavila> https://ocw.mit.edu/ans7870/6/6.005/s16/
[2023-04-01T19:51:13Z] <midfavila> you guys might find this interesting
[2023-04-01T19:51:17Z] <midfavila> MIT class on software design
[2023-04-01T19:51:35Z] <midfavila> i'm probably going to look at it over the next little while
[2023-04-01T19:54:02Z] <midfavila> hmm. btw, when designing a GUI toolkit, do you lot think it would be reasonable to combine the idea of a list/menu/collapsible list into a single widget?
[2023-04-01T19:54:28Z] <midfavila> i feel like a collapsible list widget with the ability to just disable collapsing would fit all of those niches quite nicely
[2023-04-01T19:54:57Z] <midfavila> collapsible list here being, you know, the sort of thing you'd see in a IDE or file picker/manager's sidebar
[2023-04-01T19:55:03Z] <midfavila> or in an IRC contact list, etc
[2023-04-01T19:59:42Z] <midfavila> also looking at how athena has a distinct command button and a distinct menu button, but like... i don't see why you can't just have a generic "button" widget
[2023-04-01T20:00:23Z] <midfavila> maybe it has something to do with the intricacies of shell windows versus regular windows
[2023-04-01T20:01:13Z] <midfavila> i'm also not sure if the motif approach of having both a line editor and a full editor as distinct widgets is a better approach, or if the athena approach is better
[2023-04-01T20:01:53Z] <midfavila> i want to say the athena approach is because it has less redundant code, but then it also results in higher application overhead for the GUI... but given the grunt of modern c. 1995 machines and onward it's not like an extra 5kb or whatever is the end of the world
[2023-04-01T20:03:35Z] <midfavila> trying to think of what widgets would be absolutely essential for a basic GUI system and there's really not many. generic buttons, generic tree, generic text, viewport, scrollbar and/or panner to work with said viewport, and a basic constraints management widget
[2023-04-01T20:03:49Z] <midfavila> that's enough to build most basic GUIs 
[2023-04-01T20:05:07Z] <midfavila> a progress bar would be nice, and I suppose toggle boxes ala checks and radios, but even in the case of include/exclusive sets of toggles you could make those a subtype of the general idea of a "button"...
[2023-04-01T20:05:32Z] <midfavila> ...of course, the question at that point becomes when does one widget do too much?
[2023-04-01T20:18:49Z] <midfavila> also thinking of if/how a markup language rendering widget could be implemented... basing it on an intermediate markup like SGML is the best choice, obviously, but it would still be a pretty huge task...
[2023-04-01T20:19:46Z] <midfavila> ideally you would be able to have a backend program fetch a hypertext document (or something that can be represented as hypertext like an FTP listing) and then convert that into SGML before passing it to the rendering widget, which then lays out other existing widgets in an attempt to display what the intermediate language represents
[2023-04-01T20:20:22Z] <midfavila> but i'm not entirely sure if that's the best way to approach the problem
[2023-04-01T20:22:09Z] <sewn> I would suggest to have the simplest implementation and as lowest application overhead as humanly possible, while still retaining most features like what you've mentioned
[2023-04-01T20:22:32Z] <midfavila> well, yeah, obviously. the question is how to achieve that
[2023-04-01T20:22:42Z] <midfavila> and what constitutes "simplest implementation"
[2023-04-01T20:26:14Z] <midfavila> ...hm.
[2023-04-01T20:26:43Z] <midfavila> you know, I bet code similar to what's used for viewports could be modified to implement a "buffer" constraint widget that implements a metaphor similar to the idea of Emacs buffers at a toolkit level
[2023-04-01T20:27:29Z] <midfavila> i bet you xedit does that
[2023-04-01T20:28:31Z] <sewn> does X provide a low application overhead?
[2023-04-01T20:28:59Z] <midfavila> that depends entirely on what you mean by "X"
[2023-04-01T20:29:06Z] <midfavila> but if you mean the protocol, it's not unreasonably high
[2023-04-01T20:29:20Z] <sad_plan> hi
[2023-04-01T20:29:28Z] <midfavila> obviously more than an in-kernel or shared memory message passing method might be
[2023-04-01T20:29:32Z] <midfavila> hello, sad_plan
[2023-04-01T20:32:16Z] <midfavila> agh, i wish i had one of those smartboard thingies
[2023-04-01T20:32:26Z] <midfavila> or even just a regular whiteboard
[2023-04-01T20:32:31Z] <midfavila> would make drafting flowcharts so much easier
[2023-04-01T20:35:13Z] <midfavila> maybe i should get one of those old-fashioned flowchart stencils to go with my tie and short-sleeve buttoned t-shirt
[2023-04-01T20:35:23Z] <midfavila> then all i'd need is a calculator holster and pocket protector to complete the look
[2023-04-01T20:35:38Z] <midfavila> p e r f e c t i o n
[2023-04-01T20:41:02Z] <drez> old guy
[2023-04-01T20:41:22Z] <midfavila> old-*fashioned*, not *old*
[2023-04-01T20:41:25Z] <midfavila> i'm 21
[2023-04-01T20:41:33Z] <midfavila> i just like the classics >.>
[2023-04-01T20:42:03Z] <drez> perhaps most of us do
[2023-04-01T20:42:09Z] <drez> *here
[2023-04-01T20:42:38Z] <drez> *nyah https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm7GxbVjB7Y
[2023-04-01T22:34:05Z] <phoebos> athena's text widgets are too complicated and buggy
[2023-04-01T22:34:22Z] <midfavila> i won't disagree
[2023-04-01T22:34:52Z] <midfavila> i'm just thinking of what I'll need to start with, when implementing my own toolkit
[2023-04-01T22:34:55Z] <midfavila> which i wanna do at some point
[2023-04-01T22:35:24Z] <midfavila> i think athena's API and design could have some useful lessons, but I wouldn't want to implement a text widget like athena's
[2023-04-01T22:35:39Z] <midfavila> i'd probably implement something similar conceptually to like, notepad
[2023-04-01T22:35:44Z] <phoebos> also, athena also has both types of text widgets, no?
[2023-04-01T22:36:03Z] <midfavila> in the sense of having a one-line editor and a field editor? no
[2023-04-01T22:36:07Z] <midfavila> it just has AsciiText
[2023-04-01T22:36:13Z] <midfavila> there's Label, but that's read-only
[2023-04-01T22:36:34Z] <midfavila> motif, in contrast, has Label, TextEdit (or whatever it's called...) and LineEdit (or whatever *it's* called... but you get the point)
[2023-04-01T22:36:53Z] <midfavila> TextEdit is a full-fledged editor, LineEdit is a barebones single line editor, and Label is a read-only text display widget
[2023-04-01T22:37:44Z] <midfavila> but yeah, notepad-style widget with a set of associated functions that each perform a particular operation, and that can then be remapped at startup 
[2023-04-01T22:37:51Z] <midfavila> just using the xrdb or whatever
[2023-04-01T22:38:20Z] <midfavila> wouldn't surprise me if you could kick the X translation manager and AsciiText into doing something similar 
[2023-04-01T22:39:51Z] <midfavila> right now i'm thinking you could have a really solid little toolkit if it included nothing more than a generic "button" widget, generic text editor, text label, generic tree/menu/list widget, and two constraints: an athena-style box and a Falk-style gridbox
[2023-04-01T22:41:18Z] <midfavila> motif widgets i was thinking of are XmText and XmTextField respectively
[2023-04-01T22:44:07Z] <phoebos> i'm sure i've used a single line editable Athena widget
[2023-04-01T22:44:16Z] <phoebos> don't have my laptop atm
[2023-04-01T22:44:40Z] <midfavila> there are generic Athena-compatible field widgets available, but no, you couldn't have
[2023-04-01T22:44:56Z] <midfavila> the best that can be done is coercing AsciiText into a single-line editor
[2023-04-01T22:49:07Z] <midfavila> *man* am I ever glad I picked up teriyaki sauce the other day
[2023-04-01T22:49:31Z] <midfavila> baked salmon with a thin glaze of teriyaki, maple and chili is mmfh~
[2023-04-01T22:49:38Z] <phoebos> you can set it to be one line high right
[2023-04-01T22:49:46Z] <phoebos> although it scrolls with a newline
[2023-04-01T22:49:51Z] <midfavila> yah, but it's the same widget either way
[2023-04-01T22:49:56Z] <phoebos> aye
[2023-04-01T22:50:02Z] <midfavila> motif uses distinct widgets 
[2023-04-01T22:50:19Z] <phoebos> motif text is better
[2023-04-01T22:50:46Z] <midfavila> i agree, although i don't think it's necessary to segregate single-line and multi-line editing widgets these days
[2023-04-01T22:50:52Z] <midfavila> especially if you don't pull an Athena
[2023-04-01T23:14:17Z] <drez> >baked salmon with a thin glaze of teriyaki, maple and chili | sweet love