💾 Archived View for gemini.ctrl-c.club › ~phoebos › logs › freenode-kisslinux-2021-01-21.txt captured on 2024-05-12 at 16:06:42.
⬅️ Previous capture (2021-12-17)
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2021-01-21T01:23:46 #kisslinux <acheam> Rio6: should we wait a bit?
2021-01-21T01:27:58 #kisslinux <Rio6> we can, it's not like there's a hurry
2021-01-21T05:02:56 #kisslinux <testuser[m]_> hmm, around 80 out of 432 are still outdated on the new community repo
2021-01-21T05:02:59 #kisslinux <testuser[m]_> packages
2021-01-21T05:11:37 #kisslinux <Rio6> I'm guessing some people don't know its existence yet so don't submitted pr's for new packages
2021-01-21T11:13:35 #kisslinux <danteissaias> so i'm building my own repo for kiss, and i've got a simple script to build the rootfs just KISS_ROOT=rootfs kiss b baselayout sbase ubase... etc when its building a package like oksh which requires netbsd-curses, it definitely installs netbsd-curses but oksh can't find anything when it does -lcurses
2021-01-21T11:13:39 #kisslinux <danteissaias> if i install netbsd-curses on the host it works
2021-01-21T11:13:51 #kisslinux <danteissaias> is it normal behaviour for it to be looking for these libs on the host when building a rootfs?
2021-01-21T11:14:30 #kisslinux <danteissaias> termbin.com/1k97 - here's my script, its basically a condensed version of carbslinux mkrootfs
2021-01-21T11:16:04 #kisslinux <danteissaias> same behaviour with curl and bearssl as well
2021-01-21T11:16:10 #kisslinux <danteissaias> bearssl has to be installed on the host for curl to build
2021-01-21T11:21:17 #kisslinux <jedavies> Build scripts don't normally know anything about $KISS_ROOT.
2021-01-21T11:21:22 #kisslinux <testuser[m]_> everything will be linked to host libs unless you set stuff like `-L$rootfs/lib`
2021-01-21T11:27:51 #kisslinux <jedavies> There may other things to consider like dealing with pkgconfig, cmake etc.
2021-01-21T11:28:21 #kisslinux <jedavies> This is for the clang toolchain but I've been doing something similar with these cflags etc: https://termbin.com/7exr
2021-01-21T12:30:35 #kisslinux <danteissaias> jedavies: how's clang? i'm thinking of switching to get away from gnu, is it any faster or anything?
2021-01-21T12:30:53 #kisslinux <danteissaias> the thing i don't like is how it requires cmake and python
2021-01-21T12:47:24 #kisslinux <jedavies> danteissaia: have been using it for cross-compiling, works great for that. Don't need separate toolchains for each arch.
2021-01-21T12:47:43 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i'll try it out
2021-01-21T12:47:48 #kisslinux <jedavies> Yup it has cmake and python as build time depends, but they can be removed after if you don't need them.
2021-01-21T12:48:01 #kisslinux <jedavies> Just removed both from glasnost core: https://github.com/glasnostlinux/glasnost/tree/master/core
2021-01-21T12:48:42 #kisslinux <jedavies> Down to 13 packages in core. May be able to get it down further by some static linking :)
2021-01-21T12:49:00 #kisslinux <danteissaias> that's awesome, i always love trimming down dependencies
2021-01-21T12:50:07 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i removed the libtool dependency from libtermkey which i'll push to the community repo once i clean it up a bit
2021-01-21T12:50:53 #kisslinux <danteissaias> my core has a few more packages cause i'm using sbase/ubase/sinit/oksh instead of busybox
2021-01-21T12:51:16 #kisslinux <danteissaias> and that doesn't have an editor so i'm including vis which also depends on lua libtermkey, lpeg and netbsd-curses so quite a few more
2021-01-21T12:51:27 #kisslinux <danteissaias> also i'm loving bearssl a lot
2021-01-21T12:54:31 #kisslinux <jedavies> How are you finding sbase etc? Did it require much patching of other packages?
2021-01-21T12:54:38 #kisslinux <jedavies> Same question for bearssl
2021-01-21T12:55:37 #kisslinux <danteissaias> sbase/ubase are almost perfect
2021-01-21T12:55:40 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i'm using onetrueawk for awk
2021-01-21T12:55:58 #kisslinux <danteissaias> my only issues are sed and grep
2021-01-21T12:56:08 #kisslinux <danteissaias> sed -i, and grep -R are quite useful
2021-01-21T12:56:29 #kisslinux <danteissaias> also some tools are missing like nc, diff, patch etc. i'm using openbsd's versions of those like carbslinux does
2021-01-21T12:56:47 #kisslinux <danteissaias> bearssl works fine
2021-01-21T12:57:16 #kisslinux <danteissaias> git and curl both work fine, curl has built in support and git i copied to config from carbslinux and that seems to work
2021-01-21T12:57:34 #kisslinux <danteissaias> afaik there's no version of wget that works with bearssl
2021-01-21T12:58:29 #kisslinux <danteissaias> http://git.2f30.org/hbase/ - there's also this that exists
2021-01-21T12:58:56 #kisslinux <danteissaias> a few packages still aren't building since they require a version of sed that doesn't truncate
2021-01-21T12:59:10 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i think what i'm going to do is port sed from busybox or openbsd and just have that instead of sbase sed
2021-01-21T12:59:28 #kisslinux <konimex> jedavies: very nice! I'm assuming when we're compiling to arm64 from, say, x86_64 we'll need to specify $KISS_ROOT?
2021-01-21T13:00:46 #kisslinux <danteissaias> with regards to bearssl, i haven't got as far as to test it with stuff like xorg and gpg and stuff i'll let you know once/if i get those working
2021-01-21T13:01:19 #kisslinux <testuser[m]_> rust won't build with bearssl right?
2021-01-21T13:02:29 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i havne't tried to but i assume probably not
2021-01-21T13:03:47 #kisslinux <konimex> does bearssl have an open/libressl-compatible interface?
2021-01-21T13:05:25 #kisslinux <danteissaias> not afaik
2021-01-21T13:05:34 #kisslinux <danteissaias> there's libtls-bearssl written by mcf which is a libtls interface
2021-01-21T13:05:45 #kisslinux <danteissaias> but there's no openssl compatibility layer that i'm aware of
2021-01-21T13:06:56 #kisslinux <konimex> iirc rust's openssl crates looks specifically for libcrypto.so and libssl.so so it won't be possible to use libtls
2021-01-21T13:08:11 #kisslinux <danteissaias> yeah python as well won't build with bearssl
2021-01-21T13:09:50 #kisslinux <testuser[m]_> hmm that would limit you a lot in terms of packages you can build 🤔
2021-01-21T13:10:30 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i mean the solution is to just have both until bearssl becomes usable with more packages
2021-01-21T13:10:39 #kisslinux <danteissaias> oasislinux has both cause of python
2021-01-21T13:16:12 #kisslinux <jedavies> konimex: correct. Using build flags like this to build: https://termbin.com/dl0
2021-01-21T13:16:30 #kisslinux <jedavies> /etc/os-arch is a file created by baseinit. It contains a string which is the first part of "cc -dumpmachine"
2021-01-21T13:17:08 #kisslinux <jedavies> Then e.g. GNU configure packages are built with: --build="$(cat /etc/os-arch)-linux-musl" --host="$(cat ${KISS_ROOT}/etc/os-arch)-linux-musl"
2021-01-21T13:19:53 #kisslinux <danteissaias> jedavies: the termbin url is a 404 btw
2021-01-21T13:20:57 #kisslinux <jedavies> Apologies: https://termbin.com/dl0k
2021-01-21T13:22:07 #kisslinux <danteissaias> so i've got my mkrootfs script which is using all the libs from the rootfs now but when its building curl there's an error about "cannot run c compiled progras, if you meant to cross compile, use --host"
2021-01-21T13:22:25 #kisslinux <danteissaias> https://termbin.com/538k
2021-01-21T13:22:38 #kisslinux <danteissaias> is there anything obvious i've done wrong i'm useless when it comes to compiler stuff
2021-01-21T13:23:11 #kisslinux <danteissaias> (there's no /usr on my system, everythings at the root like oasislinux and sta.li)
2021-01-21T13:25:18 #kisslinux <jedavies> Try checking in config.log if you keep the build with KISS_DEBUG=1
2021-01-21T13:26:15 #kisslinux <jedavies> Test those cflags work also when doing something simple like "cc helloworld.c", and that you can run the program.
2021-01-21T13:26:24 #kisslinux <testuser[m]_> also you might need to add `-I$KISS_ROOT/usr/include` to use includ headers from your new rootfs
2021-01-21T13:26:32 #kisslinux <jedavies> Right
2021-01-21T13:31:02 #kisslinux <danteissaias> stdio.h no such file or directory
2021-01-21T13:31:06 #kisslinux <danteissaias> hmm
2021-01-21T13:31:56 #kisslinux <danteissaias> aahh alright i've figured it out
2021-01-21T13:32:02 #kisslinux <danteissaias> it was a combination of two things
2021-01-21T13:32:11 #kisslinux <danteissaias> first i needed like include like testuser[m]_ said
2021-01-21T13:32:24 #kisslinux <danteissaias> but there's also the fact that musl doesn't get installed
2021-01-21T13:32:28 #kisslinux <danteissaias> before it tries to build make
2021-01-21T13:32:41 #kisslinux <danteissaias> since nothing depends on musl
2021-01-21T13:33:10 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i should probably installl musl and baselayout first then all the rest of the packages next
2021-01-21T14:32:34 #kisslinux <danteissaias> argh now git isn't compiling for some reason it can't include compat/regex
2021-01-21T14:32:42 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i've tried manually setting NO_REGEX=NeedsStartEnd
2021-01-21T14:32:47 #kisslinux <danteissaias> and manually including it in the cflags
2021-01-21T14:32:57 #kisslinux <danteissaias> neither work it still complains REG_STARTEND doesn't exist
2021-01-21T14:39:06 #kisslinux <danteissaias> seems to build fine on the host
2021-01-21T14:39:31 #kisslinux <danteissaias> for some reason the flags used to target the libs in the rootfs prevent from being able to include compat/regex
2021-01-21T14:43:48 #kisslinux <jedavies> Easier to build in a chroot?
2021-01-21T14:44:47 #kisslinux <danteissaias> maybe in the mkrootfs script build the base packages outside the chroot then chroot into the chroot and build the rest of the packages inside?
2021-01-21T14:45:04 #kisslinux <danteissaias> that could work
2021-01-21T15:21:23 #kisslinux <danteissaias> this is so weird its not even anything actually to do with the include path
2021-01-21T15:21:32 #kisslinux <danteissaias> if i copy /usr/include on my host to /usr/include2
2021-01-21T15:21:36 #kisslinux <danteissaias> and include /usr/include2
2021-01-21T15:21:37 #kisslinux <danteissaias> it breaks it
2021-01-21T15:21:42 #kisslinux <danteissaias> if i include /usr/include
2021-01-21T15:21:43 #kisslinux <danteissaias> it works
2021-01-21T15:21:47 #kisslinux <danteissaias> even though they are the same
2021-01-21T15:26:37 #kisslinux <danteissaias> yes! alright i figured out a solution
2021-01-21T15:26:42 #kisslinux <danteissaias> use -isystem instead of -I
2021-01-21T19:16:05 #kisslinux <snath03> I am thinking of running k1ss on raspberry pi 4... any estimates on the RAM usage for a base install would be highly apprieciated!
2021-01-21T19:17:02 #kisslinux <snath03> Also, what is the normal RAM usage of k1ss on a typical desktop PC? Any estimates?
2021-01-21T19:17:13 #kisslinux <snath03> I only mean base install
2021-01-21T19:27:59 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> On my (1GB RAM) VM it runs 40-60MB with X session up. I don't have a browser installed though, although I've run full-fledged with browser in the past and if I remember right it was about 80MB or so with a browser up?
2021-01-21T19:42:54 #kisslinux <midfavila> danteissaias glad to hear someone else has a similar setup for their coreutils as I do! for what it's worth, I've had success with Axel, which is a lighter-weight alternative to wget
2021-01-21T19:43:24 #kisslinux <midfavila> also, man, every time I come in here I end up reminded that I need to switch over to the new community repo.... time to add that to the to-do list
2021-01-21T19:54:31 #kisslinux <danteissaias> midfavila: nice, is your repo on github?
2021-01-21T19:54:39 #kisslinux <midfavila> no, it's not
2021-01-21T19:54:50 #kisslinux <midfavila> i'm going to upload it to the Gitea instance on SDF Soon:tm: though
2021-01-21T19:54:55 #kisslinux <danteissaias> ah, something else i'm trying is a non-standard filesystem hierarchy
2021-01-21T19:55:00 #kisslinux <danteissaias> like how oasislinux has
2021-01-21T19:55:07 #kisslinux <midfavila> or stali
2021-01-21T19:55:10 #kisslinux <danteissaias> yeah
2021-01-21T19:55:11 #kisslinux <danteissaias> sta.li is cool
2021-01-21T19:55:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> it is
2021-01-21T19:55:19 #kisslinux <midfavila> I'd love to statically link KISS
2021-01-21T19:55:23 #kisslinux <danteissaias> same
2021-01-21T19:55:26 #kisslinux <midfavila> and actually, you know, have a working system
2021-01-21T19:55:27 #kisslinux <danteissaias> that's what i'm trying to do
2021-01-21T19:55:36 #kisslinux <danteissaias> dilyn's done a lot of the work
2021-01-21T19:55:39 #kisslinux <danteissaias> seems like mesa is impossible
2021-01-21T19:55:39 #kisslinux <midfavila> every attempt I've made has failed so far :|
2021-01-21T19:55:59 #kisslinux <danteissaias> have you managed to build static gcc
2021-01-21T19:56:35 #kisslinux <midfavila> nah, the system broke before I got to that point, pfft.
2021-01-21T19:56:38 #kisslinux <midfavila> honestly though?
2021-01-21T19:56:47 #kisslinux <midfavila> if i was going to statically link KISS I would rather use tcc or scc
2021-01-21T19:56:51 #kisslinux <midfavila> but neither seem production-ready
2021-01-21T19:57:12 #kisslinux <danteissaias> an alternative compiler would definitely be cool
2021-01-21T19:57:23 #kisslinux <danteissaias> the only thing that won't work is the kernel but you can always build that on another machine
2021-01-21T19:57:29 #kisslinux <midfavila> yeah
2021-01-21T19:57:38 #kisslinux <midfavila> i'm considering setting up my own binary repo
2021-01-21T19:57:42 #kisslinux <midfavila> and then just copying all that over
2021-01-21T19:57:48 #kisslinux <midfavila> 'cuz all my machines are haswell so
2021-01-21T19:58:07 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i have one sandybridge and one coffeelake
2021-01-21T19:58:35 #kisslinux <midfavila> *nod*
2021-01-21T19:58:42 #kisslinux <midfavila> well, technically one of my machines is Haswell-E
2021-01-21T19:58:49 #kisslinux <midfavila> but that's just haswell with some shit slapped on top
2021-01-21T19:59:05 #kisslinux <danteissaias> ah, there's not even a march for coffeelake
2021-01-21T19:59:33 #kisslinux <midfavila> big rip
2021-01-21T19:59:34 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i mean binaries aren't that much of an issue for me i usually just leave it overnight
2021-01-21T19:59:45 #kisslinux <midfavila> yeah, that's fair
2021-01-21T19:59:50 #kisslinux <danteissaias> only really firefox, but mainly cause i don't want to have to build rust and stuff
2021-01-21T19:59:54 #kisslinux <midfavila> i just have a laptop that's suuuuuuuuuuuuper slow
2021-01-21T20:00:13 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's a 4300U clocked at like 1.7 boost I think
2021-01-21T20:00:13 #kisslinux <midfavila> but I disabled boost and then locked the CPU at 800mhz
2021-01-21T20:00:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> so yeah
2021-01-21T20:00:27 #kisslinux <midfavila> reason being i basically use it as a thin client for my desktop
2021-01-21T20:00:31 #kisslinux <danteissaias> my laptop is a thinkpad x220, currently waiting for a new motherboard since i snapped two of the pins on the mini-pcie port for the wifi card
2021-01-21T20:01:09 #kisslinux <midfavila> rip
2021-01-21T20:01:13 #kisslinux <midfavila> i've got a Panasonic CF-C2
2021-01-21T20:01:36 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> wait 800MHz?!
2021-01-21T20:01:45 #kisslinux <danteissaias> that looks awesome
2021-01-21T20:01:53 #kisslinux <midfavila> that's what /sys says the cores are running at
2021-01-21T20:01:54 #kisslinux <midfavila> and yeah
2021-01-21T20:01:56 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's p based
2021-01-21T20:02:05 #kisslinux <midfavila> doesn't require any blobs to boot and you can even cripple the ME
2021-01-21T20:02:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> like, that's a feature provided by default
2021-01-21T20:02:36 #kisslinux <midfavila> the only firmware mine uses rn is for the crappy intel wireless chip it's got rn
2021-01-21T20:02:38 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> was there a reason to lock it that low?
2021-01-21T20:02:39 #kisslinux <danteissaias> x220 is almost there but you need a blobs for ether and one for something else, but you can cripple the me
2021-01-21T20:02:55 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i used to need a blob for wifi but i bought a cheap ath90k compatible card
2021-01-21T20:03:06 #kisslinux <danteissaias> s/ath90k/ath9k/
2021-01-21T20:03:07 #kisslinux <kissbot> <danteissaias> i used to need a blob for wifi but i bought a cheap ath9k compatible card
2021-01-21T20:03:24 #kisslinux <midfavila> reason is battery life. from my (albeit somewhat limited) understanding of how machines work, if you reduce the clock, then it can reduce the amount of energy consumed over long periods of time
2021-01-21T20:03:29 #kisslinux <midfavila> like, at idle, I mean
2021-01-21T20:03:59 #kisslinux <danteissaias> midfavila: you use the the default kiss rootfs and then build your repo from there or build your own rootfs's
2021-01-21T20:04:01 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> ah got it, makes sense. every cycle needs power, and the heat goes up too -> fan usage increases
2021-01-21T20:04:10 #kisslinux <midfavila> there's no fan
2021-01-21T20:04:11 #kisslinux <midfavila> :P
2021-01-21T20:04:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> passive cooling gang
2021-01-21T20:05:20 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> haha even more reason to keep it cooler then
2021-01-21T20:05:29 #kisslinux <midfavila> you'd think so
2021-01-21T20:05:35 #kisslinux <midfavila> but the entire case is used as a heatsink
2021-01-21T20:05:38 #kisslinux <midfavila> so it doesn't get hot at all
2021-01-21T20:05:44 #kisslinux <midfavila> even when it was running at 1.7ghz
2021-01-21T20:06:02 #kisslinux <danteissaias> damn my cpu goes >90degrees when compiling
2021-01-21T20:06:10 #kisslinux <midfavila> danteissaias I just use the stock
2021-01-21T20:06:36 #kisslinux <midfavila> although I've been sorta thinking of making my own alternate rootfs so that I don't have to go through the rigamaroll of ripping busybox out every install
2021-01-21T20:06:38 #kisslinux <soliwilos> I think one or other of intel's cpu power management thingies in the kernel was changed to prefer higher clocks more often, after discovering higher clocks led to better battery when in use. Something about completing tasks quicker and being idle more.
2021-01-21T20:06:47 #kisslinux <midfavila> yup
2021-01-21T20:06:56 #kisslinux <midfavila> but I don't do anything computationally intensive on my laptop
2021-01-21T20:06:57 #kisslinux <danteissaias> do you use bearssl as well
2021-01-21T20:07:12 #kisslinux <midfavila> i outsource anything intense to my desktop, or if it's really beefy, my workstation
2021-01-21T20:07:29 #kisslinux <midfavila> and no, I don't use bearssl
2021-01-21T20:07:35 #kisslinux <midfavila> I just kinda use whatever my programs require
2021-01-21T20:07:48 #kisslinux <midfavila> so I have open, libre, and gnu stuff all providing SSL, pff
2021-01-21T20:08:22 #kisslinux <danteissaias> ah, i wish things were generally more agnostic but oh well
2021-01-21T20:08:29 #kisslinux <midfavila> yeah
2021-01-21T20:08:37 #kisslinux <midfavila> but, such is the cost of me using pidgin
2021-01-21T20:08:44 #kisslinux <midfavila> p sure it only builds with gnutls
2021-01-21T20:09:16 #kisslinux <danteissaias> rip
2021-01-21T20:09:26 #kisslinux <midfavila> speaking of IM clients
2021-01-21T20:09:33 #kisslinux <midfavila> do you guys know of any Athena-based IRC clients?
2021-01-21T20:13:36 #kisslinux <danteissaias> argh not even ldflags are consistent some programs need --static and some need -static
2021-01-21T20:13:51 #kisslinux <midfavila> sounds like fun :P
2021-01-21T20:14:02 #kisslinux <danteissaias> flex for example LDFLAGS="--static" makes it static, sbase LDFLAGS="-static" makes it static
2021-01-21T20:14:12 #kisslinux <danteissaias> probably another gnuism
2021-01-21T20:14:21 #kisslinux <midfavila> -- is a gnuism yeah
2021-01-21T20:17:00 #kisslinux <midfavila> hmmmmmmm
2021-01-21T20:17:13 #kisslinux <midfavila> i wonder if I could write an entire userspace in scheme
2021-01-21T20:17:45 #kisslinux <midfavila> well, it's turing-complete, so in theory, but... looking at even something like ls, sbase's implementation is around 400 lines xwx
2021-01-21T20:18:22 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i'm not a fan of lisp syntax
2021-01-21T20:18:52 #kisslinux <midfavila> well, I don't have enough programming experience to have much of an opinion on the minutiae of a language
2021-01-21T20:19:19 #kisslinux <midfavila> i've wanted to actually start learning the basics recently, For Real This Time:tm:, so I've been watching tapes of the old MIT SICP lectures
2021-01-21T20:19:24 #kisslinux <midfavila> hence Scheme
2021-01-21T20:19:32 #kisslinux <danteissaias> good luck
2021-01-21T20:19:37 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i want to sit down and properly learn c
2021-01-21T20:19:46 #kisslinux <midfavila> so do I
2021-01-21T20:19:59 #kisslinux <midfavila> I tried watching the Harvard lectures for CS50 but...
2021-01-21T20:20:06 #kisslinux <midfavila> they take ages to get to fucking __anything__
2021-01-21T20:20:09 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i'm most fluent in go so i'm trying to translate that knowledge to c but there's a lot of stuff i still don't fully understand
2021-01-21T20:20:14 #kisslinux <midfavila> >go
2021-01-21T20:20:17 #kisslinux <midfavila> smh
2021-01-21T20:20:44 #kisslinux <midfavila> although I think that that's something I want to avoid
2021-01-21T20:20:50 #kisslinux <midfavila> having to try and translate knowledge, that is
2021-01-21T20:21:18 #kisslinux <danteissaias> yeah i wish i'd learnt c from the start
2021-01-21T20:21:24 #kisslinux <E5ten> danteissaias: for the -static and --static thing, iirc libtool things need both
2021-01-21T20:21:34 #kisslinux <danteissaias> ah
2021-01-21T20:21:38 #kisslinux <midfavila> i've done a little bit of C
2021-01-21T20:21:42 #kisslinux <midfavila> just experimenting with Xaw
2021-01-21T20:21:56 #kisslinux <E5ten> I'm pretty sure libtool uses one of those 2 to enable some static stuff but also eats the option so it doesn't reach the compiler, and the other one libtool ignores so it's also needed because the compiler needs it
2021-01-21T20:21:58 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i sort of had a weird order i went from python to javacript/php/webstuff (ew) then to go/rust then now trying to learn c
2021-01-21T20:22:01 #kisslinux <E5ten> don't remember which is which though
2021-01-21T20:22:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> >rust
2021-01-21T20:22:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> the plot thickens
2021-01-21T20:22:44 #kisslinux <midfavila> honestly I can't stand rust. ignoring the fact that the MPL is super cringe and lame, it takes ages to ccompile the compiler, and it's just... no
2021-01-21T20:22:50 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i hate rust so much too
2021-01-21T20:22:55 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i never actually learnt it
2021-01-21T20:22:58 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i tried to
2021-01-21T20:23:00 #kisslinux <midfavila> "it's gonna replace C, guise!"
2021-01-21T20:23:24 #kisslinux <E5ten> I tried to learn rust a couple years or so ago (at this point I didn't know any langs, except shell lol), and then I gave up after a few days, and then like a year later I learned C
2021-01-21T20:23:36 #kisslinux <danteissaias> rust seems more like c++ than c
2021-01-21T20:23:45 #kisslinux <danteissaias> horrible syntax, not necessary
2021-01-21T20:23:51 #kisslinux <midfavila> that's basically what I've been doing E5ten
2021-01-21T20:24:00 #kisslinux <E5ten> yeah rust is very ugly imo
2021-01-21T20:24:06 #kisslinux <E5ten> (c++ too but less so)
2021-01-21T20:24:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> i'm thinking that rewriting my shell scripts that I use in my FVWM setup in Scheme will be a good learning exercise
2021-01-21T20:24:38 #kisslinux <midfavila> ...well, some of them, anyways
2021-01-21T20:24:42 #kisslinux <danteissaias> is fvwm any good? i've been using sowm for a year and haven't really tried anything else apart from dwm for a while
2021-01-21T20:24:50 #kisslinux <midfavila> fvwm is fuckin amazing
2021-01-21T20:24:52 #kisslinux <midfavila> but
2021-01-21T20:24:54 #kisslinux <E5ten> like I don't mean the quality of the langs or anything but just looking at rust (and to a lesser degree c++) code itself I'm like "that's nasty I don't like how that looks at all"
2021-01-21T20:24:56 #kisslinux <midfavila> word of warning
2021-01-21T20:25:05 #kisslinux <midfavila> you'll have to spend a while configuring it
2021-01-21T20:25:12 #kisslinux <E5ten> I use icewm
2021-01-21T20:25:19 #kisslinux <midfavila> so if you're not into tinkering with stuff I'd suggest against fvwm
2021-01-21T20:25:32 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i tinker all day lmao
2021-01-21T20:25:42 #kisslinux <midfavila> however, having the ability to look at another window manager, go "that's a cool feature", and then implement it in five or ten minutes in your config is super awesome
2021-01-21T20:26:03 #kisslinux <midfavila> plus you can pipe data from the window manager to and from arbitrary external programs
2021-01-21T20:26:10 #kisslinux <midfavila> there's so much you can do
2021-01-21T20:26:13 #kisslinux <danteissaias> all i really need is floating windows, 9 workspaces, and toggle fullscreen
2021-01-21T20:26:17 #kisslinux <E5ten> I like icewm cuz it has its own taskbar and has a util called icesh which can do a lot of stuff that things like wmctrl does, so I use that to do some manual tiling hotkeys
2021-01-21T20:26:18 #kisslinux <midfavila> yeah that's ezpz
2021-01-21T20:26:27 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i'll check it out
2021-01-21T20:26:45 #kisslinux <E5ten> so I don't need much extra stuff to add to it to make my wm set up
2021-01-21T20:26:47 #kisslinux <midfavila> floating windows are the default, I have nine workspaces (pages) defined right now, and all you would have to do for toggle fullscreen is define a function and then bind it to a key
2021-01-21T20:26:48 #kisslinux <midfavila> boom
2021-01-21T20:26:57 #kisslinux <danteissaias> nice
2021-01-21T20:27:21 #kisslinux <midfavila> i used nscde for a while but it's a little much for me
2021-01-21T20:27:34 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's a good example of what FVWM can do
2021-01-21T20:27:34 #kisslinux <danteissaias> what editor are you using as the default, since there's not one included in sbase/ubase etc.
2021-01-21T20:27:40 #kisslinux <midfavila> i use tine
2021-01-21T20:27:49 #kisslinux <jedavies> +1 for icewm
2021-01-21T20:27:53 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's a POSIX version of the TRIPOS/Amiga ED
2021-01-21T20:28:06 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i'm really happy with vis
2021-01-21T20:28:07 #kisslinux <midfavila> https://github.com/deadpixi/tine
2021-01-21T20:28:24 #kisslinux <midfavila> i can't really into vi-style editors myself
2021-01-21T20:28:57 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i'm so reliant on vi keybindings at this point
2021-01-21T20:29:01 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i can't really live without them
2021-01-21T20:29:05 #kisslinux <E5ten> I used to use openbox but I have an illogical desire to not have any GNOME shit on my system and ob depends on some of that stuff, that and it being completely dead (development-wise I mean) eventually led me to switch to icewm
2021-01-21T20:29:11 #kisslinux <midfavila> i just find vi clunky and slow
2021-01-21T20:29:13 #kisslinux <midfavila> i know, heresy
2021-01-21T20:29:23 #kisslinux <midfavila> use fluxbox E5ten
2021-01-21T20:29:27 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's the superior *box WM
2021-01-21T20:29:51 #kisslinux <E5ten> I'd try it out but I'm very happy with icewm already lol
2021-01-21T20:29:59 #kisslinux <midfavila> but does icewm have tabbed windows
2021-01-21T20:30:04 #kisslinux <danteissaias> vis has multiple cursors which is a huge improvement from traditiona vi-keybindings for me
2021-01-21T20:30:21 #kisslinux <E5ten> haven't really felt a desire to have tabbed windows
2021-01-21T20:30:27 #kisslinux <midfavila> fair
2021-01-21T20:30:33 #kisslinux <midfavila> fluxbox spoiled me on tabbed windows
2021-01-21T20:30:39 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's the one fuckin feature FVWM doesn't have
2021-01-21T20:30:44 #kisslinux <midfavila> even though it __used__ to have it
2021-01-21T20:31:04 #kisslinux <E5ten> oh? why'd it get removed?
2021-01-21T20:31:11 #kisslinux <midfavila> the implementation was buggy and hackish
2021-01-21T20:31:14 #kisslinux <midfavila> and it wasn't used much
2021-01-21T20:31:20 #kisslinux <midfavila> same with the GTK1.2 integration
2021-01-21T20:31:40 #kisslinux <E5ten> I see
2021-01-21T20:31:50 #kisslinux <midfavila> it would be nice to see it make a comeback now that fvwm3 is in active development though
2021-01-21T20:32:01 #kisslinux <midfavila> and i've heard talk of replacing the built-in scripting language with Tcl/Tk
2021-01-21T20:32:06 #kisslinux <midfavila> which would be extremely based
2021-01-21T20:32:50 #kisslinux <midfavila> the builtin FvwmScript language and toolkit is... not bad, but it's very rudimentary
2021-01-21T20:32:57 #kisslinux <midfavila> by design, mind yo
2021-01-21T20:32:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> u
2021-01-21T20:33:12 #kisslinux <midfavila> but it doesn't even have stuff like nested if statements
2021-01-21T20:33:14 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> I use SOWM and vim as my editor. I don't have a use case for tabbed windows except in terminal, in which I just use tmux
2021-01-21T20:33:24 #kisslinux <midfavila> mtm is what I use
2021-01-21T20:33:36 #kisslinux <midfavila> that and suckless tabbed
2021-01-21T20:33:49 #kisslinux <danteissaias> +1 for suckless tabbed
2021-01-21T20:33:56 #kisslinux <E5ten> I've tried getting into terminal multiplexers but just never really felt them lol
2021-01-21T20:34:02 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> although i use urxvt with has tabbed support in a perl extension
2021-01-21T20:34:12 #kisslinux <midfavila> i used to use urxvt
2021-01-21T20:34:13 #kisslinux <E5ten> I just open up multiple terminals and use my hotkeys to tile them into quarters of my screen
2021-01-21T20:34:17 #kisslinux <midfavila> but i recently switched to plain xterm
2021-01-21T20:34:34 #kisslinux <danteissaias> nothing beats st for me
2021-01-21T20:34:47 #kisslinux <midfavila> st is great except for when all your patches stop working
2021-01-21T20:34:50 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> i don't have any real reason to use urxvt over xterm if i'm honest
2021-01-21T20:34:54 #kisslinux <midfavila> at which point it becomes dogshit
2021-01-21T20:35:03 #kisslinux <E5ten> I use alacritty cuz the GPU accel is actually really nice, although I wish I didn't need rust to build it
2021-01-21T20:35:16 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i don't use any patches
2021-01-21T20:35:18 #kisslinux <midfavila> doesn't alacritty use over a hundred megs on its own or something ridiculous
2021-01-21T20:35:18 #kisslinux <E5ten> but I'd need rust anyway for ripgrep so it's fine
2021-01-21T20:35:25 #kisslinux <E5ten> probably
2021-01-21T20:35:38 #kisslinux <midfavila> i'm autistic about monitoring system resource usage, especially on mobile devices
2021-01-21T20:35:50 #kisslinux <midfavila> if my terminal uses more than five megs of memory I freak the fuck out
2021-01-21T20:36:12 #kisslinux <midfavila> not like I have a reason to, what with my laptop having eight gigs of the stuff
2021-01-21T20:36:15 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> did you see the big debate about which terminal opens the fastest and why they all sucked?
2021-01-21T20:36:30 #kisslinux <danteissaias> no
2021-01-21T20:36:31 #kisslinux <midfavila> if it's based on anything other than Xt/Xaw/Motif/XForms it's shit
2021-01-21T20:36:41 #kisslinux <midfavila> fight me
2021-01-21T20:36:44 #kisslinux <E5ten> alacritty uses more mem than a normal term but it's still so little compared to what a browser uses that I can't bring myself to care
2021-01-21T20:36:46 #kisslinux <soliwilos> E5ten: Tried ugrep?
2021-01-21T20:37:04 #kisslinux <midfavila> "ugrep"?
2021-01-21T20:37:13 #kisslinux <soliwilos> It's nice.
2021-01-21T20:37:46 #kisslinux <soliwilos> https://github.com/Genivia/ugrep
2021-01-21T20:37:50 #kisslinux <midfavila> seems a little overcomplicated
2021-01-21T20:37:58 #kisslinux <danteissaias> midfavila: do you use sbase grep?
2021-01-21T20:38:05 #kisslinux <midfavila> if it worked with kiss I would
2021-01-21T20:38:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> but last I checked kiss flipped its shit if you use sbase grep
2021-01-21T20:38:20 #kisslinux <midfavila> let me check
2021-01-21T20:38:33 #kisslinux <E5ten> soliwilos: iirc it's still a bit slower than ripgrep according to the benchmarks on ripgrep's site/README
2021-01-21T20:38:37 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i find grep -R too useful
2021-01-21T20:39:04 #kisslinux <midfavila> i just grep foo */*/*/* or whatever
2021-01-21T20:39:12 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's good enough
2021-01-21T20:39:44 #kisslinux <E5ten> I use rg for any grep needs I have in my terminal, and I have toybox grep as my actual grep command that gets used in scripts
2021-01-21T20:40:18 #kisslinux <midfavila> huh
2021-01-21T20:40:25 #kisslinux <midfavila> apparently kiss does actually play nice with sbase grep
2021-01-21T20:40:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> time to remove gnugrep
2021-01-21T20:40:30 #kisslinux <midfavila> awesome
2021-01-21T20:40:54 #kisslinux <midfavila> oh, speaking of tools
2021-01-21T20:41:00 #kisslinux <E5ten> might be worth comparing speed first, idk how fast/slow sbase grep is
2021-01-21T20:41:10 #kisslinux <midfavila> maybe this is just me, but have you guys ever checked out xmore/xless?
2021-01-21T20:41:48 #kisslinux <danteissaias> nope
2021-01-21T20:41:59 #kisslinux <midfavila> they're exactly what they sound like
2021-01-21T20:42:06 #kisslinux <midfavila> and I've found them shockingly useful
2021-01-21T20:42:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> being able to pop up a windowed less instance with whatever is awesome. although I guess if you have a sophisticated terminal multiplexer you can just use a resized window
2021-01-21T20:45:29 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> sounds like a plan9 thing
2021-01-21T20:45:40 #kisslinux <midfavila> nup, X11
2021-01-21T20:45:45 #kisslinux <midfavila> just really, really old
2021-01-21T20:45:52 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> piping a command or some form of input into a new window like that
2021-01-21T20:45:52 #kisslinux <danteissaias> sounds cool
2021-01-21T20:45:55 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i use less a lot since i don't have scrollback in my teriminal i just pipe things into less when they're tool long
2021-01-21T20:45:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> X11 is super awesome
2021-01-21T20:46:11 #kisslinux <midfavila> like everyone shits on X, but if you actually delve into it, there are some really cool programs
2021-01-21T20:46:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> take xcalc for example
2021-01-21T20:46:17 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> agreed
2021-01-21T20:46:31 #kisslinux <midfavila> xcalc beats the crap out of any "advanced" graphical calculator for *NIX
2021-01-21T20:46:32 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> there's a significant amount of cruft you have to sort through though
2021-01-21T20:46:39 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> to find those gems
2021-01-21T20:46:44 #kisslinux <midfavila> trust me, I know, pffft
2021-01-21T20:46:54 #kisslinux <midfavila> one of my hobbies as of late has been archiving old Xaw programs
2021-01-21T20:47:23 #kisslinux <midfavila> many a day has been spent scouring the IA for tarballs, only to be met with piles of ld errors because of out of date code that I can't rewrite
2021-01-21T20:47:28 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> that where your Athena IRC question comes from eh?
2021-01-21T20:47:33 #kisslinux <midfavila> yeah
2021-01-21T20:47:38 #kisslinux <midfavila> I only use Athena programs on my laptop
2021-01-21T20:47:42 #kisslinux <midfavila> EXCEPT for pidgin
2021-01-21T20:48:01 #kisslinux <midfavila> i'd use a console irc client but I like my eyecandy =w=
2021-01-21T20:48:09 #kisslinux <midfavila> Oh!
2021-01-21T20:48:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> Also, check out xcalendar
2021-01-21T20:48:18 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's fuckin amazing
2021-01-21T20:48:25 #kisslinux <danteissaias> what is athena btw?
2021-01-21T20:48:33 #kisslinux <midfavila> the "original" X11 toolkit
2021-01-21T20:48:36 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> speaking of eye candy and old X11 programs, GolemWM themes are just bitmaps and some size/orientation configuration
2021-01-21T20:48:41 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's basically an abstraction layer for raw Xt
2021-01-21T20:48:58 #kisslinux <danteissaias> oh wow, looks like plan9-esque
2021-01-21T20:49:04 #kisslinux <midfavila> that sounds similar to one of FVWM's features ominous_anonymous
2021-01-21T20:49:32 #kisslinux <midfavila> but yeah, Athena is suuuuuuuuuuuper amazing
2021-01-21T20:49:36 #kisslinux <midfavila> like I can't gush about it enough
2021-01-21T20:49:53 #kisslinux <midfavila> one of the niftiest features is that there are multiple implementations that are all binary compatible
2021-01-21T20:50:32 #kisslinux <midfavila> so you have... gosh, if I remember correctly, Xaw, Xaw3d, Xaw3dXpm, Xaw3dXft, neXtaw, Xawm, Xaw95...
2021-01-21T20:51:38 #kisslinux <midfavila> Xaw is the standard, Xaw3d is Xaw with a more 3d look, Xpm allows you to bind X pixmaps to widgets, Xft adds support for Xft to programs, neXtaw makes stuff look like neXt, Xawm is a modern rewrite, and 95 is based on the old Windows aesthetic
2021-01-21T20:51:46 #kisslinux <midfavila> you can swap them out in realtime just by symlinking stuff
2021-01-21T20:52:03 #kisslinux <midfavila> plus you can theme any aspect of a Xaw program through Xresources
2021-01-21T20:52:34 #kisslinux <midfavila> and to top it all off it's extremely lightweight
2021-01-21T20:52:43 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's really a shame that there aren't more programs written with it
2021-01-21T20:53:22 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> kind of sounds like Wayland compositors or at least the way they're supposed to work
2021-01-21T20:53:38 #kisslinux <midfavila> except unlike wayland it actually works, kek
2021-01-21T20:53:45 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> where as long as they adhere to "the protocol" then they're all compatible
2021-01-21T20:53:46 #kisslinux <midfavila> and has done so for like thirty years
2021-01-21T20:53:57 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> yeah right, and already has mature solutions for most everything
2021-01-21T20:54:04 #kisslinux <midfavila> shockingly enough when you actually adhere to X11, it works well
2021-01-21T20:55:02 #kisslinux <midfavila> https://cyber.dabamos.de/unix/x11/xcalendar.gif
2021-01-21T20:55:12 #kisslinux <midfavila> here's an example of a very basic xcalendar using standard xaw
2021-01-21T20:55:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> looks lame, but it's got integrated notetaking and alarm functionality
2021-01-21T20:56:00 #kisslinux <midfavila> plus it stores all of its notes in plaintext so you can extend it with regular tools
2021-01-21T20:56:09 #kisslinux <midfavila> or sync it between systems using a cronjob
2021-01-21T20:56:11 #kisslinux <midfavila> etc
2021-01-21T20:57:13 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> ummm like that's amazing
2021-01-21T20:58:52 #kisslinux <midfavila> i'll see if I can upload a screenshot of my laptop... what's that site that allows you to just HTTP POST to it?
2021-01-21T20:58:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> 0x.something
2021-01-21T20:58:58 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> 0x0.st
2021-01-21T20:59:02 #kisslinux <midfavila> right, thanks
2021-01-21T20:59:07 #kisslinux <midfavila> I need to bookmark that
2021-01-21T20:59:12 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> sure thing :)
2021-01-21T20:59:36 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> imgur allows uploads too but they don't wipe the images periodically like 0x0 does
2021-01-21T20:59:50 #kisslinux <midfavila> imgur also requires yucky JS and is gross
2021-01-21T21:00:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> is 0x0 down?
2021-01-21T21:00:32 #kisslinux <midfavila> i can't ping it or anything
2021-01-21T21:00:46 #kisslinux <danteissaias> doesn't seem like it on my end
2021-01-21T21:00:53 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> it's up for me
2021-01-21T21:00:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> hmm
2021-01-21T21:01:06 #kisslinux <midfavila> I checked from a server out in texas and it works from there
2021-01-21T21:01:07 #kisslinux <midfavila> weird
2021-01-21T21:01:10 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> curl -F'file=@yourfile.png' http://0x0.st
2021-01-21T21:01:37 #kisslinux <midfavila> yeah traceroute solves it
2021-01-21T21:01:45 #kisslinux <midfavila> there's a node on the way that's malfunctioning
2021-01-21T21:01:49 #kisslinux <midfavila> lame
2021-01-21T21:02:37 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> ix.io can be used as pastebin
2021-01-21T21:04:56 #kisslinux <midfavila> http://0x0.st/-i0P.png
2021-01-21T21:05:22 #kisslinux <midfavila> that's my current setup on my laptop
2021-01-21T21:05:23 #kisslinux <danteissaias> that looks awesome!
2021-01-21T21:05:23 #kisslinux <midfavila> highly WIP
2021-01-21T21:05:45 #kisslinux <danteissaias> what font is that
2021-01-21T21:05:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> the builting X font :p
2021-01-21T21:06:04 #kisslinux <midfavila> s/builting/builtin/
2021-01-21T21:06:04 #kisslinux <kissbot> <midfavila> the builtin X font :p
2021-01-21T21:07:01 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> pretty, nice and clean
2021-01-21T21:07:23 #kisslinux <midfavila> I need to work on the system's cosmetic guts
2021-01-21T21:07:31 #kisslinux <midfavila> there's actually nothing defined for it right now
2021-01-21T21:07:38 #kisslinux <midfavila> and I'm seriously dreading writing stuff for it xwx
2021-01-21T21:08:04 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> any reason other than for the a e s t h e t i c s?
2021-01-21T21:08:17 #kisslinux <midfavila> well, aesthetic is important
2021-01-21T21:08:26 #kisslinux <midfavila> not just from a cosmetic perspective either
2021-01-21T21:08:37 #kisslinux <midfavila> right now a lot of the colors in use are inconsistent
2021-01-21T21:08:50 #kisslinux <midfavila> so it can be a little "wtf" at times when things seem to do stuff they aren't meant to do
2021-01-21T21:08:55 #kisslinux <danteissaias> my setup is pretty much identical to this - https://i.redd.it/2huhhtofx8451.png
2021-01-21T21:09:25 #kisslinux <midfavila> that's a background >.>
2021-01-21T21:09:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> way too bright for me
2021-01-21T21:09:51 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i really like it
2021-01-21T21:09:52 #kisslinux <midfavila> i have a screenshot of my previous config for my desktop around here somewhere, one sec
2021-01-21T21:10:01 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> i like it! minimal
2021-01-21T21:10:24 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> i tend to prefer window decorations (even though I never use them...)
2021-01-21T21:10:36 #kisslinux <midfavila> ^
2021-01-21T21:10:47 #kisslinux <midfavila> normally I have a QNX4 setup going on
2021-01-21T21:10:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> http://midfavila.chaosnet.org/screenshots/screenshot_1.png
2021-01-21T21:11:00 #kisslinux <midfavila> as seen here
2021-01-21T21:11:06 #kisslinux <midfavila> although this is months and months ago
2021-01-21T21:11:31 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i'm not good at making my own rices so i usually just steal them from unixporn
2021-01-21T21:11:41 #kisslinux <midfavila> fair
2021-01-21T21:11:50 #kisslinux <danteissaias> that particular setup of dylan's i like a lot basically been using it since i first saw it so for like 8 months
2021-01-21T21:11:54 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> i like that too, except the left button on the window titlebar bothers me XDF
2021-01-21T21:12:03 #kisslinux <danteissaias> that's actually how i found out about kiss
2021-01-21T21:12:24 #kisslinux <midfavila> also fair :P
2021-01-21T21:12:30 #kisslinux <midfavila> not everyone digs the left menu button
2021-01-21T21:12:45 #kisslinux <midfavila> but it's convenient because I can hook it into my specific window screenshot function
2021-01-21T21:12:55 #kisslinux <danteissaias> nice
2021-01-21T21:13:00 #kisslinux <midfavila> good for killing windows and identifying them, too
2021-01-21T21:13:02 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> i meant more because it's slightly out of alignment with the rest of the bar
2021-01-21T21:13:09 #kisslinux <danteissaias> sowm is a bit buggy though unfourtunately
2021-01-21T21:13:14 #kisslinux <danteissaias> windows randomly stop showing up
2021-01-21T21:13:17 #kisslinux <danteissaias> and it crashes a lot
2021-01-21T21:13:21 #kisslinux <midfavila> yeah, my old config was...
2021-01-21T21:13:23 #kisslinux <midfavila> clunky
2021-01-21T21:13:38 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> i have more problems on the newest version of SOWM than i did on the older ones
2021-01-21T21:13:43 #kisslinux <danteissaias> blob:https://imgur.com/b0ecafac-fcc1-473f-b82a-9b8b44c8989d
2021-01-21T21:13:46 #kisslinux <midfavila> what bothered me the most is that the font on titlebars isn't aligned vertically with the stripe on the titlebar
2021-01-21T21:13:57 #kisslinux <danteissaias> https://i.imgur.com/agpl2rs.png
2021-01-21T21:14:00 #kisslinux <midfavila> but ofc FVWM lacks the ability to shift titlebar font vertically
2021-01-21T21:14:02 #kisslinux <danteissaias> that was one of my first rices
2021-01-21T21:14:07 #kisslinux <danteissaias> if i can copy the url properly
2021-01-21T21:14:08 #kisslinux <midfavila> so I modified the bitmaps I was using
2021-01-21T21:14:11 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> ahhh Golem WM does!
2021-01-21T21:14:12 #kisslinux <midfavila> and now it's slightly less ass
2021-01-21T21:14:20 #kisslinux <midfavila> golem is cool
2021-01-21T21:14:23 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> except i'm too lazy to do it
2021-01-21T21:14:26 #kisslinux <midfavila> but it lacks the flexibility of FVWM
2021-01-21T21:14:36 #kisslinux <midfavila> FVWM just falls short in a few really niche and odd ways
2021-01-21T21:14:43 #kisslinux <midfavila> but you can work around it fairly easily
2021-01-21T21:14:48 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> it's also a PITA to compile now since stuff is so outdated
2021-01-21T21:14:49 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i mean no program is perfect
2021-01-21T21:15:03 #kisslinux <midfavila> FVWM is pretty close to perfect imho
2021-01-21T21:15:22 #kisslinux <danteissaias> that's how i feel about vis
2021-01-21T21:15:22 #kisslinux <midfavila> supremely stable, lightweight, limited mostly by your imagination
2021-01-21T21:15:34 #kisslinux <midfavila> funnily enough FVWM is more lightweight than TWM
2021-01-21T21:17:22 #kisslinux <danteissaias> i'll definitely try it out once i've got this rootfs working
2021-01-21T21:17:25 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> GolemWM last release was 2006, but I couldn't get it to run so I had to downgrade to 0.0.5 and do a ton of makefile manipulation
2021-01-21T21:17:39 #kisslinux <midfavila> actually wait
2021-01-21T21:17:40 #kisslinux <danteissaias> ebay seller still hasn't shipped my motherboard so i guess i'll have to wait a bit :/
2021-01-21T21:17:43 #kisslinux <midfavila> I think I remember you doing that
2021-01-21T21:17:51 #kisslinux <midfavila> cuz I wanted to try setting it up
2021-01-21T21:19:18 #kisslinux <midfavila1> anyway sorry in advance if you guys get flooded with join/quit messages
2021-01-21T21:19:28 #kisslinux <midfavila1> i need to tinker with my laptop's pidgin setup a bit and it might crash
2021-01-21T21:19:31 #kisslinux <midfavila1> like a lot
2021-01-21T21:19:33 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> yeah i had to change how the plugin Makefiles were generated so they'd have -fPIC, then I had to modify a few files to update some conventions to changes in C
2021-01-21T21:20:11 #kisslinux <midfavila1> oh btw
2021-01-21T21:20:26 #kisslinux <midfavila1> if you guys know of any good fonts that have both a bitmap and ttf form, pls share
2021-01-21T21:21:43 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> https://addy-dclxvi.github.io/post/bitmap-fonts/ not sure if there's ttf form of those though
2021-01-21T21:22:17 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> i like pretzel and sundae
2021-01-21T21:22:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> i've been using cozette lately
2021-01-21T21:22:29 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's nice
2021-01-21T21:22:38 #kisslinux <midfavila> actually I wonder if gtk2 can render bitmaps
2021-01-21T21:23:40 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> does gtk2 use pango?
2021-01-21T21:23:52 #kisslinux <midfavila> yeah
2021-01-21T21:24:04 #kisslinux <midfavila> pangocairo
2021-01-21T21:24:07 #kisslinux <midfavila> or whatever
2021-01-21T21:24:41 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> you probably already knew/know this https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Pango-No-More-Bitmap-Fonts
2021-01-21T21:24:51 #kisslinux <midfavila> yeah that's what I was worried about
2021-01-21T21:24:53 #kisslinux <midfavila> fuck
2021-01-21T21:25:07 #kisslinux <midfavila> hopefully STLWRT can be modified to support bitmaps once it's release-ready
2021-01-21T21:27:27 #kisslinux <midfavila> hmm. I guess I can just use Topaz
2021-01-21T21:27:32 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's got TTF and bitmap versions
2021-01-21T21:27:48 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> https://0x0.st/-ieB.png
2021-01-21T21:28:12 #kisslinux <midfavila> wow based
2021-01-21T21:28:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> nice window decorations
2021-01-21T21:28:23 #kisslinux <midfavila> what WM is that?
2021-01-21T21:28:29 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> see how the window title doesn't align with the border? i couldn't figure out how to get Golem to use the right font for that
2021-01-21T21:28:44 #kisslinux <midfavila> oh, that's golem?
2021-01-21T21:28:47 #kisslinux <midfavila> very cool
2021-01-21T21:28:54 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> yep!
2021-01-21T21:29:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> one WM I really like is AfterStep
2021-01-21T21:29:33 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's basically the concept of FVWM but applied to OPENSTEP
2021-01-21T21:29:41 #kisslinux <midfavila> but it's basically been dead since 2013
2021-01-21T21:29:52 #kisslinux <midfavila> and it... really doesn't like multihead setups
2021-01-21T21:30:26 #kisslinux <midfavila> gah, I can't get xmh to work
2021-01-21T21:30:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> this is annoying
2021-01-21T21:31:56 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> yeah almost anything that old will be hard to get updated
2021-01-21T21:32:03 #kisslinux <midfavila> well, the thing i
2021-01-21T21:32:04 #kisslinux <midfavila> s
2021-01-21T21:32:07 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's maintained by xorg
2021-01-21T21:32:09 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> there used to be such a drive for things like that, now all the WMs are boring
2021-01-21T21:32:18 #kisslinux <midfavila> oh, no, AfterStep you meant
2021-01-21T21:32:23 #kisslinux * midfavila slams their head into the wall
2021-01-21T21:32:29 #kisslinux <midfavila> 5head momment
2021-01-21T21:32:32 #kisslinux <midfavila> s/momment/moment
2021-01-21T21:32:33 #kisslinux <kissbot> <midfavila> 5head moment
2021-01-21T21:34:12 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> https://0x0.st/-i09.png
2021-01-21T21:34:18 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> different golem theme
2021-01-21T21:34:41 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> i've been too lazy to figure out the icons or update the menu or fix the fastlaunchers in the bottom left
2021-01-21T21:35:23 #kisslinux <midfavila> https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=QHRuTYtSbJQ
2021-01-21T21:35:39 #kisslinux <midfavila> Rip
2021-01-21T21:35:39 #kisslinux <midfavila> And
2021-01-21T21:35:39 #kisslinux <midfavila> Tear
2021-01-21T21:36:58 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> i started with openbox, but it is limited in its theming unless you want to really get in the weeds with GTK. SOWM is nice because you can do whatever you want really, I got window borders set up for example (though the official patch's way made mine look super dumb)
2021-01-21T21:37:27 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> FVWM just seems the nicest because pretty much everything you'd want to do is already supported, it just requires some configuration
2021-01-21T21:37:36 #kisslinux <midfavila> fluxbox is nice because you just dump a bunch of jpgs in a folder with an xml file
2021-01-21T21:37:41 #kisslinux <midfavila> but fvwm is even better
2021-01-21T21:37:53 #kisslinux <midfavila> because you just assign an image to a colorset and then assign that colorset to whatever you want to look like that
2021-01-21T21:38:07 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> is FVWM3 a big change?
2021-01-21T21:38:13 #kisslinux <midfavila> yesn't
2021-01-21T21:38:37 #kisslinux <midfavila> thomas (basically the BDFL) is rewriting huge chunks of the code, but most of the changes aren't breaking
2021-01-21T21:38:48 #kisslinux <midfavila> and any of the changes that _are_ breaking have a good reason to be
2021-01-21T21:39:00 #kisslinux <midfavila> for example xinerama support is being deprecated in favor of randr
2021-01-21T21:39:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> also the Forms module was removed
2021-01-21T21:39:21 #kisslinux <midfavila> because it was redundant
2021-01-21T21:39:50 #kisslinux <midfavila> tbqh though if it was still maintained, I'd be using SCWM right now
2021-01-21T21:40:01 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's FVWM but Scheme instead of its own bespoke language
2021-01-21T21:42:04 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> i like z3bra's stuff https://blog.z3bra.org/2015/01/you-are-the-wm.html
2021-01-21T21:42:47 #kisslinux <midfavila> i've been considering integrating wmutils with fvwm
2021-01-21T21:42:58 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> i've trended towards "low tech" stuff, not necessarily minimalist but like... ok yeah sure your Nord material design setup can look nice but who gives a shit
2021-01-21T21:42:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> but I really don't know if the wmutils would add anything
2021-01-21T21:43:03 #kisslinux <midfavila> god
2021-01-21T21:43:08 #kisslinux <midfavila> don't talk to me about modern design
2021-01-21T21:43:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> it makes me want to commit homicide
2021-01-21T21:43:22 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> with fvwm probably not, or at probably nothing that couldn't be done in fvwm already
2021-01-21T21:43:47 #kisslinux <midfavila> i'm trying to minimize dependence on outside programs that aren't POSIX
2021-01-21T21:44:05 #kisslinux <midfavila> idea being that you just untar the config, set FVWM_USERDIR in .xsession, and go
2021-01-21T21:46:45 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> yeah it's so nice to be able to do that. SOWM is really cool and i really like it, but having to maintain patches just to have a border indicator on my focused window is kind of annoying.
2021-01-21T21:47:01 #kisslinux <midfavila> :p
2021-01-21T21:47:36 #kisslinux <midfavila> gah, my telegram plugin for pidgin isn't working
2021-01-21T21:47:55 #kisslinux <midfavila> i wish people would just use IRC or XMPP or literally anything other than these centralized platforms
2021-01-21T21:48:45 #kisslinux <midfavila> but of course if it just werks it's good enough
2021-01-21T21:51:52 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> shit dude I'd be on AOL IM still if they hadn't shut it down
2021-01-21T21:53:43 #kisslinux <midfavila1> AIM is a little before my time
2021-01-21T21:54:35 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> huh, well this is interesting: https://darnir.gitlab.io/matrix-shell-suite/index.html
2021-01-21T21:55:38 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> it's just what I "grew up" on, i never really used IRC until fairly recently
2021-01-21T21:55:44 #kisslinux <midfavila1> Fair
2021-01-21T21:55:53 #kisslinux <midfavila1> I spent most of my time on forums
2021-01-21T21:55:58 #kisslinux <midfavila1> Still not a huge fan of IM
2021-01-21T21:56:41 #kisslinux <midfavila1> but of course there are no good boards online any more
2021-01-21T21:57:17 #kisslinux <midfavila1> bbs.anarplex.net seems interesting, but I dunno if I'd make the cut for their membership
2021-01-21T22:00:01 #kisslinux <midfavila1> hmm
2021-01-21T22:00:03 #kisslinux <midfavila1> you know what
2021-01-21T22:00:19 #kisslinux <midfavila1> how complex is IRC as a protocol? like, to implement a bare minimum of a client
2021-01-21T22:00:59 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> i feel like traditional forum boards are becoming more and more niche and hidden, as people move towards stuff like stack overflow / reddit / hackernews / etc
2021-01-21T22:01:13 #kisslinux <midfavila1> plebbit and shill news, eugh
2021-01-21T22:01:35 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1459#section-2
2021-01-21T22:02:06 #kisslinux <midfavila1> oh, cool. thanks
2021-01-21T22:02:23 #kisslinux <midfavila1> i've not had luck finding a Xaw IRC client over the past few months so I figure I might as well try writing my own
2021-01-21T22:02:47 #kisslinux <midfavila1> no idea if that would be too lofty of a project for a first-timer though
2021-01-21T22:03:14 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> dylan's birch client and @mcpcpc[m]'s kirc could be two starting points maybe
2021-01-21T22:03:23 #kisslinux <midfavila1> hmm, true
2021-01-21T22:03:27 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> oh graphical
2021-01-21T22:03:35 #kisslinux <midfavila1> maybe I could take the xmh route and just make a Xaw interface for those
2021-01-21T22:04:36 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> yeah, the core event loop would be behind the scenes anyways
2021-01-21T22:04:49 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> you'd just be displaying things to a window instead of to stdout
2021-01-21T22:04:55 #kisslinux <midfavila1> yeah
2021-01-21T22:05:19 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> not sure birch would help then as it is all escape codes manipulation
2021-01-21T22:05:34 #kisslinux <midfavila1> probably not
2021-01-21T22:09:07 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> pidgin is open-source, you might be able to take a look at how they do their irc integration
2021-01-21T22:09:26 #kisslinux <midfavila1> yeah, that's what I was thinking
2021-01-21T22:09:46 #kisslinux <midfavila1> originally I was just gonna make a Xaw interface to libpurple
2021-01-21T22:10:16 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> https://keep.imfreedom.org/pidgin/pidgin/file/tip/libpurple/protocols/irc
2021-01-21T22:10:49 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> would that let you use any protocol libpurple already supports?
2021-01-21T22:10:56 #kisslinux <midfavila1> yup2021-01-21T22:10:58 #kisslinux <midfavila1> yup*
2021-01-21T22:11:17 #kisslinux <midfavila1> pidgin is just a gtk2 frontend to libpurple
2021-01-21T22:11:21 #kisslinux <midfavila1> there's also an ncurses frontend
2021-01-21T22:11:53 #kisslinux <midfavila1> side note, $# represents an arbitrary number of command line arguments in a shell script right?
2021-01-21T22:11:56 #kisslinux <midfavila1> I can't recall
2021-01-21T22:12:41 #kisslinux <midfavila1> no, that's the number of params, nevermind
2021-01-21T22:12:42 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> the number of positional parameters
2021-01-21T22:12:55 #kisslinux <midfavila1> $@ is for a list of all parameters
2021-01-21T22:12:59 #kisslinux * midfavila1 facepalms
2021-01-21T22:13:20 #kisslinux <midfavila1> had to modify my browser script
2021-01-21T22:14:58 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> i think that type of project would be neat, and shouldn't be too complex (at least protocol-wise)
2021-01-21T22:15:07 #kisslinux <midfavila1> Mmh
2021-01-21T22:15:53 #kisslinux <midfavila1> i'd be able to get rid of Pidgin on my laptop too, thank god
2021-01-21T22:16:54 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> if you wanted to make it even tougher, you could make an irc bouncer in POSIX and then just code a graphical client to that
2021-01-21T22:17:39 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> then you could have persistent connections and logging without needing a bot alongside your normal connection
2021-01-21T22:17:58 #kisslinux <midfavila1> true
2021-01-21T22:18:05 #kisslinux <midfavila1> but I've never even used a bouncer, let alone written one, pfft.
2021-01-21T22:18:12 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> XD baby steps then!
2021-01-21T22:18:19 #kisslinux <midfavila1> indeed
2021-01-21T22:19:10 #kisslinux <midfavila1> honestly there are a lot of things I want to write
2021-01-21T22:19:12 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Athena_Widgets is this what you were talking about
2021-01-21T22:19:13 #kisslinux <midfavila1> just no idea where to start
2021-01-21T22:19:17 #kisslinux <midfavila1> yeah
2021-01-21T22:19:51 #kisslinux <midfavila1> wtf, wikipedia is down for me too
2021-01-21T22:19:55 #kisslinux <midfavila1> what kind of bullshit is this
2021-01-21T22:20:17 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> they finally started cracking down on people who haven't donated to them eh
2021-01-21T22:20:26 #kisslinux <midfavila1> i guess so
2021-01-21T22:20:35 #kisslinux <midfavila1> i knew I should have donated to wikipedia instead of the EFF
2021-01-21T22:21:36 #kisslinux <midfavila1> i'd also like to write a task manager in Xaw
2021-01-21T22:21:39 #kisslinux <midfavila1> ala lxtask
2021-01-21T22:22:07 #kisslinux <midfavila1> and maybe some day a whole suite of software to put together a DE for myself
2021-01-21T22:22:15 #kisslinux <midfavila1> but that's a bit ambitious for now
2021-01-21T22:23:30 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> i'd probably start with irc myself to get my feet wet
2021-01-21T22:23:44 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> btw z3bra made his own wm: https://z3bra.org/glazier/
2021-01-21T22:24:29 #kisslinux <midfavila1> v cool
2021-01-21T22:26:08 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> he has some interesting stuff if you poke around http://blog.z3bra.org/2013/10/home-sweet-home.html for example
2021-01-21T22:26:18 #kisslinux <midfavila1> i'll check it out
2021-01-21T22:26:24 #kisslinux <midfavila1> reminds me of another dude on the net
2021-01-21T22:26:32 #kisslinux <midfavila1> can't recall his name but he wrote a browser called lariza
2021-01-21T22:26:38 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> https://git.z3bra.org/libeech/file/README.html
2021-01-21T22:26:40 #kisslinux <midfavila1> i'd probably be using it if it wasn't webkit
2021-01-21T22:27:31 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> http://blog.z3bra.org/2014/12/so-tox-me-maybe.html
2021-01-21T22:27:50 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> keep in mind a lot of his stuff is many years old
2021-01-21T22:28:47 #kisslinux <midfavila1> https://www.uninformativ.de/git/
2021-01-21T22:28:55 #kisslinux <midfavila1> check it
2021-01-21T22:29:40 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> oh nice!
2021-01-21T22:29:59 #kisslinux <midfavila1> lots of cool stuff on their site
2021-01-21T22:34:33 #kisslinux <ominous_anonymou> yep, thanks for the rabbit hole!
2021-01-21T22:34:42 #kisslinux <midfavila1> np
2021-01-21T22:34:51 #kisslinux <midfavila1> I'm going to start cataloguing this stuff on my site soon
2021-01-21T23:43:39 #kisslinux <midfavila1> Fuck yeah! It only took me three hours of digging through documentation, but I've finally gotten GTK and Xaw to use the same font