💾 Archived View for gemini.ctrl-c.club › ~phoebos › logs › freenode-kisslinux-2019-09-21.txt captured on 2024-05-12 at 16:10:43.
⬅️ Previous capture (2021-12-17)
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2019-09-21T04:21:43 #kisslinux <konimex> > Some were companies trying to take over development under the guise of putting paid developers on the project.
2019-09-21T04:22:09 #kisslinux <konimex> I know you mentioned about some "third-parties" in the email, but to the extent of wanting to put paid developers
2019-09-21T04:22:14 #kisslinux <konimex> they really mean business
2019-09-21T04:22:30 #kisslinux <konimex> man, that's quite nasty
2019-09-21T04:23:40 #kisslinux <nestman> new PR for `berry` 0.1.3
2019-09-21T07:51:03 #kisslinux <flacks> hi everyone! excited about KISS!
2019-09-21T07:51:41 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Hello
2019-09-21T07:51:45 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> :D
2019-09-21T07:51:53 #kisslinux <flacks> finally got the thing to boot with qemu after dusting off the kernel config side of my brain :)
2019-09-21T07:52:05 #kisslinux <flacks> o/
2019-09-21T07:52:17 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Yeah, configuring the kernel is what trips most people up.
2019-09-21T07:52:24 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I struggled at the beginning.
2019-09-21T07:52:39 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> But hey, afterwards you *know* your system and the exact drivers it needs.
2019-09-21T07:52:56 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> It's a good learning excercise.
2019-09-21T07:53:11 #kisslinux <flacks> there's gotta be easier ways to figure out what the minimal/essential drivers needed for your system
2019-09-21T07:53:55 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> 'lspci -vv | grep driver' on your existing system lists all PCI drivers (Audio, Graphics, WIFI).
2019-09-21T07:54:00 #kisslinux <flacks> yes, you learn by some combination of trial and error, and probing your system
2019-09-21T07:54:08 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> 'lsmod' from an existng system helps too.
2019-09-21T07:54:16 #kisslinux <flacks> hm, yeah right?
2019-09-21T07:54:25 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> You only have to do it once too.
2019-09-21T07:55:12 #kisslinux <flacks> from a genkernel-type system
2019-09-21T07:55:20 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Googling your hardware can help as well. Gentoo's WIKI have pages about needed drivers for popular hardware.
2019-09-21T07:56:00 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I enable the kernel config option to store the .config in /proc/config.gz so as long as I have my kernel I have my config.
2019-09-21T07:56:09 #kisslinux * flacks mutters "google"
2019-09-21T07:56:18 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I know, I know.
2019-09-21T07:56:25 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> It has become a verb of sorts.
2019-09-21T07:56:35 #kisslinux <flacks> :P
2019-09-21T07:57:19 #kisslinux <flacks> anyway - yes, you're totally right. gentoo wiki is fantastic, and woops, I should enable .config support
2019-09-21T07:57:33 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> It appeals to the laziness in me.
2019-09-21T07:57:35 #kisslinux <flacks> and duckduckgoing your hardware def helps
2019-09-21T07:57:38 #kisslinux <flacks> :P
2019-09-21T07:57:45 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I don't have store my config somewhere :P
2019-09-21T07:57:59 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> 'make' is smart enough to look for '/proc/config.gz' too.
2019-09-21T07:58:28 #kisslinux <flacks> hm
2019-09-21T07:58:43 #kisslinux <flacks> so if you have no .config in your linux tree, it'll use it by default?
2019-09-21T07:58:44 #kisslinux <flacks> or?>
2019-09-21T07:59:58 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Yeah
2019-09-21T08:00:09 #kisslinux <flacks> I see.
2019-09-21T08:00:15 #kisslinux <flacks> interesting to know.
2019-09-21T08:04:01 #kisslinux <flacks> so I've got a burning issue here, wondering if anyone could help out - I've got a FDE NVMe root drive using LVM on LUKS that I'm trying to boot KISS from. anyone got any advice to throw at me or resources to check besides dm-init.rst from the linux tree?
2019-09-21T08:08:12 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> https://www.spinics.net/lists/lvm/msg24694.html
2019-09-21T08:08:19 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> There's this mailing list thread.
2019-09-21T08:10:25 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> There's the source for the driver itself: https://code.woboq.org/linux/linux/drivers/md/dm-init.c.html
2019-09-21T08:12:22 #kisslinux <flacks> the driver is surprisingly small
2019-09-21T08:12:51 #kisslinux <flacks> ... thank you, I'm gonna read up until I get this thing to boot :)
2019-09-21T08:15:03 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Also: https://gitlab.collabora.com/koike/dm-cmdline-test/raw/master/dm-cmd-test.sh
2019-09-21T08:15:18 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Ctrl+f for 'linear_parser_tests()'.
2019-09-21T08:15:25 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> You'll see blocks like these:
2019-09-21T08:15:27 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> launch_test 2019-09-21T08:15:30 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> "linear: should fail (test the test)" 2019-09-21T08:15:31 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> "-hda ${DL1}" 2019-09-21T08:15:33 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> /dev/dm-0 2019-09-21T08:15:36 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> "dm-linear,,0,rw,0 0 linear 8:1 0,0 0 linear 8:2 0,0 0 linear 8:3 0,0 0 linear 8:4 0" 2019-09-21T08:15:38 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> 124
2019-09-21T08:15:49 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> The last line in each block is for 'dm-mod.create'.
2019-09-21T08:16:25 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> brb
2019-09-21T08:17:51 #kisslinux <flacks> hm
2019-09-21T09:00:57 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> https://blog.chromium.org/2019/09/chrome-78-beta-new-houdini-api-native.html
2019-09-21T09:01:11 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Native file access is closer than I thought.
2019-09-21T09:01:13 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Ahhhhhhhh
2019-09-21T09:04:13 #kisslinux <flacks> is that excitement or stress? :P
2019-09-21T09:04:54 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> The latter.
2019-09-21T09:04:57 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I think it's a terrible idea.
2019-09-21T09:05:38 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Smells like exploits and security issues to me.
2019-09-21T09:05:44 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Just a new attack vector.
2019-09-21T09:05:57 #kisslinux <flacks> hehe
2019-09-21T09:06:38 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> A web browser is an operating system and application platform nowadays.
2019-09-21T09:06:43 #kisslinux <flacks> I love giving random web services access to my filesystem
2019-09-21T09:07:02 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Yup
2019-09-21T09:07:10 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I forsee "super cookies".
2019-09-21T09:07:26 #kisslinux <flacks> those are already a thing, aren't they?
2019-09-21T09:07:40 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Probably, wouldn't surprise me.
2019-09-21T09:07:54 #kisslinux <flacks> since flash days
2019-09-21T09:07:57 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I'm talking about websites storing data on your system in whatever format they desire.
2019-09-21T09:07:58 #kisslinux <flacks> IIUC
2019-09-21T09:08:13 #kisslinux <flacks> oo
2019-09-21T09:08:23 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> A website could even store binary data this way.
2019-09-21T09:08:51 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> This is a push to make electron obsolete too.
2019-09-21T09:09:17 #kisslinux <flacks> 🤔
2019-09-21T09:09:42 #kisslinux <flacks> well electron could certainly be deprecated and I wouldn't shed a tear
2019-09-21T09:10:01 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Think about it, chrome just opens a window with the UI hidden displaying VS Code etc.
2019-09-21T09:10:33 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Your web browser should display plain text documents.
2019-09-21T09:10:34 #kisslinux <flacks> well.........
2019-09-21T09:10:35 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> That's it.
2019-09-21T09:11:03 #kisslinux <raiz> all hail gopher o/
2019-09-21T09:11:34 #kisslinux <flacks> on the flipside, it'd definitely be easier to firejail/lock-down just one application (your browser) instead of 3 trillion electron/proprietary apps
2019-09-21T09:11:35 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I already use the web without javascript though it's getting harder and harder.
2019-09-21T09:12:03 #kisslinux <flacks> if everything is just in your browser, you can fine-tune what files your browser is allowed to access outside ${DOWNLOADS}
2019-09-21T09:12:13 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Yet another software layer though.
2019-09-21T09:13:06 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> These aren't solutions but band-aids to problems.
2019-09-21T09:13:06 #kisslinux <flacks> I tend to not even view pages if they don't load without js unless it's crucial
2019-09-21T09:13:16 #kisslinux <flacks> well.........
2019-09-21T09:13:34 #kisslinux <flacks> the real solution is AGPL3 web services
2019-09-21T09:14:00 #kisslinux <flacks> anything else is obscurity
2019-09-21T09:14:24 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Software needs to stop riding the wave of hardware advancements. It needs to stop being "good enough".
2019-09-21T09:14:36 #kisslinux <flacks> raiz: the go gopher?
2019-09-21T09:15:17 #kisslinux <flacks> hmmm
2019-09-21T09:15:44 #kisslinux <flacks> could you elaborate?
2019-09-21T09:15:51 #kisslinux <raiz> the RFC1436 gopher
2019-09-21T09:16:08 #kisslinux <flacks> dylanaraps: (elaborate msg was for you)
2019-09-21T09:16:29 #kisslinux <flacks> raiz: oo :)
2019-09-21T09:16:36 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> We were pretty much running the same software two decades ago with a fraction of the hardware power.
2019-09-21T09:16:55 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> But as hardware got faster, software actually got *slower*.
2019-09-21T09:18:45 #kisslinux <flacks> hmm
2019-09-21T09:20:03 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> All of the software we use is so fragile it scares me sometimes.
2019-09-21T09:20:24 #kisslinux <flacks> rewrite it all in go! and/or rust :)
2019-09-21T09:20:28 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> It feels like every new change to existing software is tacked on with glue.
2019-09-21T09:20:29 #kisslinux <flacks> why_not_both.jpg
2019-09-21T09:20:36 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> ➜ kiss-size rust | tail -1
2019-09-21T09:20:39 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> 296.9M total
2019-09-21T09:20:40 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Rust has so many problems.
2019-09-21T09:21:16 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> ➜ kiss-size go | tail -1
2019-09-21T09:21:18 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> 271.8M total
2019-09-21T09:21:28 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Go isn't any better size-wise either.
2019-09-21T09:21:30 #kisslinux <flacks> well.. as for tacking on with glue, we just need good robust compilers that give you a good helping hand
2019-09-21T09:21:44 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Why are they so large?
2019-09-21T09:21:47 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> ➜ kiss-size python | tail -1
2019-09-21T09:21:48 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> 137.0M total
2019-09-21T09:21:56 #kisslinux <flacks> rust does have its problems, but it's presented us with some incredibly good ideas
2019-09-21T09:22:07 #kisslinux <flacks> the lack of a spec is rust's biggest problem, I'd say
2019-09-21T09:22:18 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Sure
2019-09-21T09:22:35 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Cargo needing 150~ external crates to build worries me.
2019-09-21T09:22:46 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I don't like this npm-like trend of software development.
2019-09-21T09:22:47 #kisslinux <raiz> the spaghetti syntax i'd say
2019-09-21T09:22:50 #kisslinux <flacks> >big languages
2019-09-21T09:22:51 #kisslinux <flacks> safe programming requires a lot of corner cases and gotchas to iron out
2019-09-21T09:23:33 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Software has a human issue and not a technical one I'd say.
2019-09-21T09:24:27 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> " Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail. Those programs which cannot so expand are replaced by ones which can."
2019-09-21T09:24:47 #kisslinux <flacks> lol!
2019-09-21T09:25:23 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I really wish there wasn't truth in that. lol
2019-09-21T09:25:29 #kisslinux <flacks> >npm-like trend
2019-09-21T09:25:29 #kisslinux <flacks> what would you like instead?
2019-09-21T09:25:43 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> C
2019-09-21T09:26:22 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Programming languages shouldn't venture into package management.
2019-09-21T09:27:03 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> They're languages.
2019-09-21T09:27:37 #kisslinux <flacks> hold on though - you say that software is basically walking on egg shells these days - C is an ancient language whose waters you need to have been baptized in from birth to understand how to efficiently code in it and do so safely
2019-09-21T09:28:15 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Yes, that's why I said software has a human issue and not a technical one.
2019-09-21T09:28:35 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> C gives you control, what you do with that control is up to you.
2019-09-21T09:28:41 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> You the power to write good code or to shoot yourself in the foot.
2019-09-21T09:28:48 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> have the*
2019-09-21T09:31:17 #kisslinux <flacks> hmm
2019-09-21T09:31:54 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> npm/rust/go/etc have spawned a (large) group of developers who write "good enough" code through laziness of grouping a bunch of libraries together. All of which are downloaded from the web and all of which depend on more libraries. The rabbit hole of dependence is deep.
2019-09-21T09:32:25 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Example: is_odd depends on is_even which depends on is_number.
2019-09-21T09:32:32 #kisslinux <flacks> hahahaha ^
2019-09-21T09:32:41 #kisslinux <flacks> ok first off I think it's unfair to group npm with rust and go
2019-09-21T09:32:46 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> All are one line long.
2019-09-21T09:32:47 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> This is true...
2019-09-21T09:32:47 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> It's real.
2019-09-21T09:32:56 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> They're no different in how they work.
2019-09-21T09:33:03 #kisslinux <flacks> they are though ,let me explain
2019-09-21T09:33:05 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Package management wise.
2019-09-21T09:33:12 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> As languages, sure.
2019-09-21T09:33:23 #kisslinux <raiz> I'd have to disagree
2019-09-21T09:33:54 #kisslinux <raiz> C is not rainbows and sunshine either
2019-09-21T09:33:56 #kisslinux <flacks> with rust and go, at least you have to option to specify custom repositories, or, crucially, use local directories for dependencies
2019-09-21T09:34:00 #kisslinux <raiz> it has its fair share of ugliness
2019-09-21T09:34:02 #kisslinux <flacks> ^^
2019-09-21T09:34:14 #kisslinux <flacks> ^*
2019-09-21T09:34:20 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Of course, it's picking the lesser evil.
2019-09-21T09:34:21 #kisslinux <raiz> it's dominant compilers are pain to use
2019-09-21T09:34:23 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> It always is.
2019-09-21T09:34:43 #kisslinux <raiz> every now and then you hip a gcc bug
2019-09-21T09:34:46 #kisslinux <flacks> rust and go compilers fight you tooth and nail to make sure you're not misusing variables, or if you're doing some common programming oops that opens a security issue
2019-09-21T09:34:53 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Cargo depending on a crate to read '$HOME' strikes me as insane.
2019-09-21T09:35:24 #kisslinux <raiz> also, I write go code, but I never use its package manager
2019-09-21T09:35:32 #kisslinux <raiz> the built in build system is convenient though
2019-09-21T09:35:43 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Rust is the longest package to compile in KISS and the worse piece of software to package.
2019-09-21T09:36:05 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Go is bad too but less so (to package).
2019-09-21T09:36:23 #kisslinux <raiz> also, at least go doesn't has its compiler written in a different language, unlike C where you have gcc and clang/llvm with C++ code
2019-09-21T09:36:44 #kisslinux <raiz> you can't use other compilers because those won't work with "modern" software
2019-09-21T09:37:01 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Bootstrapping Go/Rust is where packaging issues arise though.
2019-09-21T09:38:15 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I much prefer simplicity in implementation than in usage.
2019-09-21T09:38:35 #kisslinux <raiz> you don't have simplicity in implementation with C
2019-09-21T09:39:11 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Compared to Go/Rust I'd disagree with you.
2019-09-21T09:39:27 #kisslinux <raiz> how so?
2019-09-21T09:39:47 #kisslinux <raiz> also, stop referring to go and rust as one thing
2019-09-21T09:39:56 #kisslinux <raiz> both have absolutely different approaches
2019-09-21T09:40:07 #kisslinux <raiz> just because they're the hype nowadays doesn't mean they're similar
2019-09-21T09:40:14 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I'm grouping them in the context of "modern" languages.
2019-09-21T09:40:25 #kisslinux <raiz> X_X
2019-09-21T09:40:37 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> They share a lot of similarities (outside of the language specs/design goals).
2019-09-21T09:40:44 #kisslinux <raiz> is it fair to compare KISS to Ubuntu 18.04 because both are "modern"
2019-09-21T09:41:02 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Depends on what you're comparing.
2019-09-21T09:41:18 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Context matters.
2019-09-21T09:41:19 #kisslinux <flacks> ^ :P
2019-09-21T09:42:06 #kisslinux <raiz> so... how does C have simple implementation as you suggested?
2019-09-21T09:42:07 #kisslinux <flacks> aside - anyone have problems building openssh?
2019-09-21T09:42:18 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Got an exact build log?
2019-09-21T09:42:41 #kisslinux <nestman> V IS THE BEST LANGUAGE, CHANGE MY MIND
2019-09-21T09:42:41 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Compared to Rust/Go (and other "modern" languages).
2019-09-21T09:42:46 #kisslinux <flacks> give me a sec - any preferred paste service?
2019-09-21T09:42:52 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Nope
2019-09-21T09:42:56 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Wherever is fine.
2019-09-21T09:43:01 #kisslinux <raiz> how?
2019-09-21T09:43:28 #kisslinux <flacks> oh boy, v
2019-09-21T09:43:40 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I'm not calling C the gold standard for simplicity (in implementation) but I do think it's the best we've got right now.
2019-09-21T09:44:06 #kisslinux <raiz> but you still haven't told me how it's having a "simpler implementation"
2019-09-21T09:45:04 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I have, I define it as "simpler in implementation" compared to "modern" languages (rust, go etc). I'm not calling C "simple", I'm calling it "simpler" than what is aiming to replace it.
2019-09-21T09:45:28 #kisslinux <raiz> I'm comparing Go to C, rust is out of context here
2019-09-21T09:46:02 #kisslinux <flacks> https://paste.rs/s0v
2019-09-21T09:46:19 #kisslinux <raiz> so you're saying the 2M+ LOC of aging C++/C cruft that is gcc with bugs all over it is better than the go compiler?
2019-09-21T09:47:20 #kisslinux <flacks> go src is some of the cleanest and most well-commented code I've seen
2019-09-21T09:47:24 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I never said one was better than the other.
2019-09-21T09:47:34 #kisslinux <raiz> you said "simpler"
2019-09-21T09:47:40 #kisslinux <raiz> which is in this context better
2019-09-21T09:47:45 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Yeah
2019-09-21T09:47:52 #kisslinux <konimex> flacks: doesn't look like a problem there
2019-09-21T09:47:57 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> No
2019-09-21T09:48:09 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> In this context it's "simpler".
2019-09-21T09:48:14 #kisslinux <flacks> konimex: search for "RB_GENERATE_STATIC"
2019-09-21T09:48:21 #kisslinux <konimex> nevermind
2019-09-21T09:48:25 #kisslinux <konimex> yep, found it
2019-09-21T09:49:08 #kisslinux <raiz> either you're too ignorant to have a look at both source codes and compare or you're just defending your point for the sake of it
2019-09-21T09:50:22 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> You need to stop attacking the person and start actually reading the words I'm writing to you. Calling someone ignorant is no way to have a discussion. :)
2019-09-21T09:50:46 #kisslinux <raiz> oh well I'll leave you with your ignorance
2019-09-21T09:51:01 #kisslinux <raiz> I'm not shitting on C, I've used it all the time
2019-09-21T09:51:12 #kisslinux <raiz> but I've gotta face the fact that it's not great
2019-09-21T09:52:24 #kisslinux <flacks> konimex: can you confirm a rebuild works for you atm?
2019-09-21T09:52:41 #kisslinux <konimex> two secs
2019-09-21T09:53:06 #kisslinux <konimex> on mobile rn, turning on my laptop]
2019-09-21T09:53:19 #kisslinux <flacks> thank you :)
2019-09-21T09:54:37 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I can reproduce.
2019-09-21T09:56:38 #kisslinux <flacks> eh, I think C is a language for a different era, where concurrency wasn't a thing, and where you typically had to optimize code for the limited resources available at the time, whereby manual memory management was an almost necessary thing to do.
2019-09-21T09:58:14 #kisslinux <konimex> building with go is fun and games until you start actually building the toolchain (i.e. go itself), but hey, at least it doesn't need an internet connection to build
2019-09-21T09:58:20 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> > where you typically had to optimize code for the limited resources available at the time
2019-09-21T09:58:21 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Now we have the opposite though.
2019-09-21T09:58:50 #kisslinux <nestman> what irc clients do you use on phone?
2019-09-21T09:58:52 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> konimex: I found a way to cache rust's bootstrap last night. It's very painful but possible.
2019-09-21T09:59:53 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> You can't look at software today and say "things are good".
2019-09-21T09:59:54 #kisslinux <flacks> today, multiple processors is the norm, even in mobile devices, and we have a wealth of resources like disk space and RAM. in go and rust, both languages allow for low-level memory management, but they focus on higher-level abstractions - go makes concurrency first-class and incredibly simple to leverage, rust is a bit more complicated because of no GC, but still orders of magnitude easier and safer than C.
2019-09-21T10:00:24 #kisslinux <konimex> nestman: anything i can found in f-droid
2019-09-21T10:00:46 #kisslinux <flacks> konimex: wat - I built a go cross-compiler for android in under 2 minutes
2019-09-21T10:00:58 #kisslinux <flacks> it was a one-liner
2019-09-21T10:01:09 #kisslinux <raiz> its a matter of running a script
2019-09-21T10:01:11 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Did you have go already installed on the host?
2019-09-21T10:01:23 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Did you compile go from source?
2019-09-21T10:01:23 #kisslinux <flacks> nestman: Revolution IRC
2019-09-21T10:01:28 #kisslinux <nestman> revolution, it is
2019-09-21T10:02:03 #kisslinux <flacks> compiled from source, yes
2019-09-21T10:02:29 #kisslinux <konimex> hm, I can't reproduce the openssh issue
2019-09-21T10:02:43 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> We're talking about a host without go from the start and a bootstrap to compile it from source on the same machine.
2019-09-21T10:02:47 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I can reproduce it.
2019-09-21T10:02:52 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Looking into it now.
2019-09-21T10:03:08 #kisslinux <raiz> dylanaraps: you don't have to
2019-09-21T10:03:35 #kisslinux <raiz> GOOS=yoursillyos GOARCH=yoursillyarch ./all.bash
2019-09-21T10:03:49 #kisslinux <raiz> that's cross-compilation right there
2019-09-21T10:04:07 #kisslinux <konimex> ...and I believe that will *download* a go binary in case there are no traces of go in your system?
2019-09-21T10:04:09 #kisslinux <raiz> you'll have your toolchain ready to be used on a new arch
2019-09-21T10:04:25 #kisslinux <raiz> isn't that the case for all compilers?
2019-09-21T10:04:32 #kisslinux <konimex> true that
2019-09-21T10:05:02 #kisslinux <konimex> it goes way back to 1970s, or 1960s, whenever the very first C compiler were built
2019-09-21T10:05:11 #kisslinux <flacks> which came first, the chicken or the egg?
2019-09-21T10:05:28 #kisslinux <raiz> I'd say the egg
2019-09-21T10:05:31 #kisslinux <flacks> dylanaraps: thank you :)
2019-09-21T10:05:32 #kisslinux <raiz> for breakfast
2019-09-21T10:05:40 #kisslinux <flacks> konimex: thanks anyway for trying to reproduce!
2019-09-21T10:05:41 #kisslinux <raiz> chicken for lunch
2019-09-21T10:05:56 #kisslinux <flacks> ha
2019-09-21T10:06:25 #kisslinux <flacks> I like JUST's JUST Egg
2019-09-21T10:06:46 #kisslinux <flacks> :P
2019-09-21T10:07:29 #kisslinux <konimex> dylanaraps: you still use the same script to check new version?
2019-09-21T10:07:36 #kisslinux <konimex> for some reason mine no longer works
2019-09-21T10:07:47 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I just use repology now.
2019-09-21T10:09:50 #kisslinux <flacks> repology looks nice
2019-09-21T10:17:30 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Fixed openssh.
2019-09-21T10:17:57 #kisslinux <flacks> hm, what was the issue?
2019-09-21T10:18:03 #kisslinux <flacks> (to learn)
2019-09-21T10:18:29 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Our bsd compatibility headers conflict with the ones openssh itself provides.
2019-09-21T10:18:34 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Specifically 'sys/cdefs.h'.
2019-09-21T10:19:11 #kisslinux <konimex> that header is in musl pkg or its own pkg?
2019-09-21T10:20:03 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I added the three bsd compat headers to the musl package though this issue would occur with the files in the system regardless (if it were its own package and it was installed)
2019-09-21T10:20:52 #kisslinux <konimex> hmm... now why can't I reproduce this issue...
2019-09-21T10:21:14 #kisslinux <konimex> newest is on 8.0p1, right?
2019-09-21T10:21:26 #kisslinux <flacks> yes
2019-09-21T10:21:33 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> ➜ kiss l musl
2019-09-21T10:21:35 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> musl 1.1.23 4
2019-09-21T10:21:48 #kisslinux <konimex> yep, that looks right
2019-09-21T10:22:04 #kisslinux <konimex> oh well, probably black magic on my laptop
2019-09-21T10:22:51 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I managed to fix the latest rust on LLVM 9 last night though my added patches pulled in 40+ commits.
2019-09-21T10:23:13 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> So I decided to wait the 7 days till the next rust version. lol
2019-09-21T10:24:03 #kisslinux <flacks> dylanaraps: you rock
2019-09-21T10:24:37 #kisslinux <flacks> (thanks for fixing openssh :D)
2019-09-21T10:24:55 #kisslinux <nestman> i love kiss
2019-09-21T10:25:21 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> No problemo
2019-09-21T10:25:22 #kisslinux <nestman> would you like me to `kiss u`
2019-09-21T10:25:22 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> :)
2019-09-21T10:25:30 #kisslinux <nestman> *ba dum tss*
2019-09-21T10:27:24 #kisslinux <flacks> I was instantly captivated by kiss
2019-09-21T10:27:33 #kisslinux <flacks> since I've been getting more into shell programming
2019-09-21T10:28:02 #kisslinux <flacks> this was just up my alley. `kiss` pm is so simple I want to cry
2019-09-21T10:28:15 #kisslinux <flacks> but anyway - rust is admittedly pretty crazy to build
2019-09-21T10:28:25 #kisslinux <flacks> and it does take forever
2019-09-21T10:28:56 #kisslinux <flacks> kudos for wrestling the source code into something usable :P
2019-09-21T10:29:52 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Rust's build process and size is a fixable issue though.
2019-09-21T10:29:58 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I have some hope :P
2019-09-21T10:31:23 #kisslinux <flacks> you mean by replacing it with C11 src and running make? mark the issue as solved xP
2019-09-21T10:32:09 #kisslinux <konimex> at the very least, I'd like to see all of the files needed available locally, so we don't really have to constantly download anything
2019-09-21T10:32:22 #kisslinux <flacks> ^ this is annoying
2019-09-21T10:32:25 #kisslinux <konimex> it gets annoying quickly
2019-09-21T10:32:49 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I can fix it though there are two equally ugly solutions.
2019-09-21T10:33:09 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> 1. Add a prefix to the sources file "no-extract:" to _not_ extract an archive.
2019-09-21T10:33:20 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> 2. Download and do caching in rust's build file.
2019-09-21T10:33:49 #kisslinux <konimex> prefix? I was thinking you'd want a $3 instead
2019-09-21T10:33:55 #kisslinux <konimex> easier to parse
2019-09-21T10:34:07 #kisslinux <konimex> wait no
2019-09-21T10:34:10 #kisslinux <konimex> $2
2019-09-21T10:35:21 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> What if there's no $2?
2019-09-21T10:35:25 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Then $3 becomes $2.
2019-09-21T10:35:42 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> konimex:
2019-09-21T10:35:45 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> ➜ ./kiss-maintainer berry
2019-09-21T10:35:46 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Author: Cliford Sab <clifordsab⊙gc>
2019-09-21T10:35:57 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> 2 line script to easily find the maintainer.
2019-09-21T10:36:19 #kisslinux <konimex> I forgot we're talking about `sources` and thought about `checksums` that's why i said $3
2019-09-21T10:36:26 #kisslinux <konimex> yes, now check ./kiss-maintainer bspwm
2019-09-21T10:37:07 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I know.
2019-09-21T10:37:07 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Commits were goofed during the split.
2019-09-21T10:37:19 #kisslinux <konimex> yeah, so there's that, so we're leaving it as is?
2019-09-21T10:37:27 #kisslinux <konimex> as I think there are only a fraction of packages affected
2019-09-21T10:37:58 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Yup
2019-09-21T10:38:05 #kisslinux <konimex> alright, closing issue
2019-09-21T10:41:28 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> https://github.com/kisslinux/kiss-utils/blob/master/bin/kiss-maintainer
2019-09-21T10:47:56 #kisslinux <flacks> 🤘
2019-09-21T10:49:12 #kisslinux <flacks> ok, so I'm very new to busybox - can anyone point me to where to look to understand service management with sv on kiss?
2019-09-21T10:51:07 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> This is how you enable a service:
2019-09-21T10:51:08 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> ln -s /etc/sv/acpid/ /var/service/
2019-09-21T10:51:11 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> acpid for example.
2019-09-21T10:52:02 #kisslinux <konimex> also, take a look at http://smarden.org/runit for starters since busybox is using its own implementation of runit
2019-09-21T10:52:13 #kisslinux <konimex> or https://busybox.net/~vda/init_vs_runsv.html
2019-09-21T10:53:53 #kisslinux <flacks> ok, let's see
2019-09-21T10:55:05 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I don't do any service management at all personally.
2019-09-21T10:55:17 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> runit is nice though.
2019-09-21T11:03:31 #kisslinux <flacks> hm
2019-09-21T11:06:37 #kisslinux <flacks> why no service management for you?
2019-09-21T11:14:34 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> All I need running is dhcpcd and wpa_supplicant.
2019-09-21T11:14:55 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I maintain my own system boot script which handles these (and the rest of the boot process).
2019-09-21T11:36:56 #kisslinux <konimex> dylanaraps: you still have use that keybase thing?
2019-09-21T11:36:59 #kisslinux <konimex> https://keybase.io/a/i/r/d/r/o/p/spacedrop2019
2019-09-21T11:38:15 #kisslinux <konimex> s/have//
2019-09-21T11:47:16 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I have it but I haven't used it.
2019-09-21T11:47:20 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I don't see the point really.
2019-09-21T12:01:27 #kisslinux <konimex> well looks like its been giving out some cryptos, might be useful if you want to withdraw it
2019-09-21T12:01:58 #kisslinux <konimex> it's not much but hey free money, don't know what's the catch though
2019-09-21T12:08:05 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> It's their own crypto, that's the catch.
2019-09-21T12:47:56 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> TIL: https://bearssl.org/
2019-09-21T12:48:01 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> neat
2019-09-21T12:48:41 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> > No dynamic allocation whatsoever. There is not a single malloc() call in all the library. In fact, the whole of BearSSL requires only memcpy(), memmove(), memcmp() and strlen() from the underlying C library. This makes it utterly portable even in the most special, OS-less situations. (On “big” systems, BearSSL will automatically use a couple more system calls to access the OS-provided
2019-09-21T12:48:44 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> clock and random number generator.)
2019-09-21T12:48:54 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> > On big desktop and server OS, this feature still offers an interesting characteristic: immunity to memory leaks and memory-based DoS attacks. Outsiders cannot make BearSSL allocate megabytes of RAM since BearSSL does not actually know how to allocate RAM at all.
2019-09-21T13:08:39 #kisslinux <flacks> dylanaraps: re: init, I see. well I guess that's the beauty of rolling your own OS :)
2019-09-21T13:10:06 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Yup :P
2019-09-21T13:10:27 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> There are only 7 or 8~ processes running when I boot my laptop.
2019-09-21T13:11:06 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> init, udevd, dhcpcd, wpa_supplicant, xorg-server, xinit and getty1
2019-09-21T13:11:15 #kisslinux <flacks> oh god how wonderful
2019-09-21T13:11:18 #kisslinux <flacks> hm, on that subject -
2019-09-21T13:11:22 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> 9 if I open a terminal (st + sh).
2019-09-21T13:11:29 #kisslinux <flacks> why was no wayland chosen as a design decision for kiss?
2019-09-21T13:12:00 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> It's just not included in the repositories.
2019-09-21T13:12:10 #kisslinux <flacks> a wayland compositor would arguably reduce the amount of software needed for a minimal system
2019-09-21T13:12:14 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I'll send you the link to a comment of mine explaining why.
2019-09-21T13:12:17 #kisslinux <flacks> like e.g. sway
2019-09-21T13:12:23 #kisslinux <flacks> ok!
2019-09-21T13:12:33 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> It wouldn't as you'd still need Xorg installed.
2019-09-21T13:12:51 #kisslinux <flacks> hmm if you wanted to do Xwayland
2019-09-21T13:12:57 #kisslinux <flacks> only if*
2019-09-21T13:12:58 #kisslinux <flacks> AIUI
2019-09-21T13:13:10 #kisslinux <flacks> but I think it's still infeasible to go pure wayland anyway
2019-09-21T13:13:12 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Which is pretty much mandatory (right now).
2019-09-21T13:13:14 #kisslinux <flacks> for many tasks
2019-09-21T13:13:18 #kisslinux <flacks> yeah
2019-09-21T13:13:36 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> My internet is terrible atm, still trying to load Reddit.
2019-09-21T13:13:47 #kisslinux <flacks> fair enough
2019-09-21T13:13:48 #kisslinux <flacks> np take your time
2019-09-21T13:14:00 #kisslinux <flacks> would you accept a PR for sway in the community repos, though? :P
2019-09-21T13:14:06 #kisslinux <flacks> or even enlightenment
2019-09-21T13:16:23 #kisslinux <flacks> actually, I'll wait to read your post first heh
2019-09-21T13:16:23 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> https://old.reddit.com/r/unixporn/comments/d5d8xo/openbox/f0lb8z8/
2019-09-21T13:16:54 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> To add to my comment:
2019-09-21T13:17:07 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> - All wayland compositors require vsync (and it can't be disabled).
2019-09-21T13:17:25 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> - To run sway as non-root logind/elogind is required.
2019-09-21T13:18:27 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> - NVIDIA support (non-nouveau) in wlroots is basically a "you're dumb, buy better hardware next time" (I don't like this...).
2019-09-21T13:18:44 #kisslinux <flacks> ^
2019-09-21T13:19:01 #kisslinux <flacks> that remark is quite extremist, I'll say
2019-09-21T13:19:41 #kisslinux <flacks> DeVault's opinions do go quite extreme at times
2019-09-21T13:20:17 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> - Xorg and Wayland *aren't* the same thing nor do they have the same goals. So the transition will never be seamless (if you care about the differences).
2019-09-21T13:21:43 #kisslinux <flacks> can you elaborate on why vsync is something (I guess) you don't like?
2019-09-21T13:21:54 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> - Xorg is modular whereas Wayland locks you to a compositor and tools compatible with it (also related to no/few standards between compositors).
2019-09-21T13:21:58 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> It should be an option.
2019-09-21T13:22:04 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I don't use a compositor or any vsync on my system.
2019-09-21T13:22:56 #kisslinux <flacks> I don't really see any detriment to having it enabled though? I mean, it's just a design decision for wayland compositors to make for a nicer experience
2019-09-21T13:22:59 #kisslinux <flacks> AFAICT
2019-09-21T13:23:04 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> vsync isn't something you want for low-latency gaming.
2019-09-21T13:23:12 #kisslinux <flacks> as for xorg/wayland not having the same goals - indeed
2019-09-21T13:23:31 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Yet there's a push for wayland to replace Xorg.
2019-09-21T13:23:45 #kisslinux <flacks> hmmm
2019-09-21T13:23:46 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Due to Red Hat being the sole maintainers of both!
2019-09-21T13:24:07 #kisslinux <flacks> security is the biggest issue
2019-09-21T13:25:05 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> It comes at a loss though (of choice and functionality)..
2019-09-21T13:25:22 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Xorg is very user focused and Wayland is very security focused.
2019-09-21T13:26:29 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I'd be fine with Wayland if the transition wasn't something forced upon us. Xorg has at the very least 10 years left (according to Red Hat).
2019-09-21T13:27:26 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Wayland brings compositor lock-in and a big loss of choice. Those are my major problems with it.
2019-09-21T13:29:15 #kisslinux <flacks> hmm
2019-09-21T13:30:10 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> o/
2019-09-21T13:30:13 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Welcome
2019-09-21T13:30:48 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> flacks: The fact that this page _needs_ to exist worries me too. https://github.com/swaywm/sway/wiki/Running-Sway-without-systemd
2019-09-21T13:31:29 #kisslinux <flacks> I think it's moreso a matter of perspective. given Xorg's inherent modular nature, a window manager is just a tiny component that leverages all of Xorg's modules and utilities. WL compositors have to handle everything Xorg does, so yes, they will have their own specific utilities to handle e.g. wallpaper changes. if you compare a wayland compositor with its 3 or 4 extra utilities, it would probably be about the size of
2019-09-21T13:31:29 #kisslinux <flacks> Xorg+utilities+i3
2019-09-21T13:32:12 #kisslinux <flacks> of course, as established, I agree with you that a pure WL environment isn't feasible, so you effectively would need WL+Xorg to have a fully-functional WL environment
2019-09-21T13:32:36 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Only now instead of a single display server with a single set of standard protocols (Xorg) we have GNOME, KDE and wlroots all with their own protocols etc.
2019-09-21T13:32:43 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I don't like this at all.
2019-09-21T13:33:05 #kisslinux <dredrim> Hi there everyone, just found out about the distro this morning
2019-09-21T13:33:23 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Hello
2019-09-21T13:34:33 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Feel free to ask any questions you have. :)
2019-09-21T13:34:33 #kisslinux <flacks> mmm ok I see your point
2019-09-21T13:34:43 #kisslinux <flacks> points*
2019-09-21T13:35:03 #kisslinux <flacks> hi dredrim
2019-09-21T13:35:10 #kisslinux <dredrim> Thank you, I will. Looks neat!
2019-09-21T13:35:17 #kisslinux <flacks> join the party!
2019-09-21T13:35:20 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Then there's weston (and its library) and mir.
2019-09-21T13:35:21 #kisslinux <flacks> it is neat
2019-09-21T13:35:30 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> So 5 different implementattions of the same thing.
2019-09-21T13:35:36 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> This number will only grow too...
2019-09-21T13:35:51 #kisslinux <flacks> well, weston is a reference implemention
2019-09-21T13:35:55 #kisslinux <flacks> implementation*
2019-09-21T13:36:02 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> It's also a library for real use.
2019-09-21T13:36:18 #kisslinux <flacks> oh, TIL.
2019-09-21T13:36:37 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> > Libweston is an effort to separate the re-usable parts of Weston into a library. Libweston provides most of the boring and tedious bits of correctly implementing core Wayland protocols and interfacing with input and output systems, so that people who just want to write a new "Wayland window manager" (WM) or a small desktop environment (DE) can focus on the WM part.
2019-09-21T13:37:15 #kisslinux <flacks> hmmmm
2019-09-21T13:37:20 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> From: https://github.com/wayland-project/weston/#libweston
2019-09-21T13:38:21 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I run Xorg as my normal user btw.
2019-09-21T13:38:28 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> It "just works" nowadays.
2019-09-21T13:38:59 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> 3157 goldie 11:11 /usr/bin/X :0 vt1 -keeptty
2019-09-21T13:39:47 #kisslinux <flacks> indeed
2019-09-21T13:41:02 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> So my only root processes are these:
2019-09-21T13:41:04 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> 1 root 0:00 init
2019-09-21T13:41:06 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> 118 root 0:00 udevd --daemon
2019-09-21T13:41:07 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> 191 root 0:02 wpa_supplicant -B -i wlp1s0 -c /etc/wifi.conf
2019-09-21T13:41:09 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> 201 root 0:00 dhcpcd
2019-09-21T13:42:49 #kisslinux <flacks> 🤘
2019-09-21T13:42:54 #kisslinux <flacks> :)
2019-09-21T13:45:22 #kisslinux <dredrim> Have you guys ran into any problems installing kiss on a VM? Gonna try now
2019-09-21T13:45:33 #kisslinux <flacks> I see where you're coming from
2019-09-21T13:46:13 #kisslinux <flacks> dredrim: nop - running it in a vm now
2019-09-21T13:46:36 #kisslinux <flacks> well, chrooted for the moment, but it definitely works with qemu/libvirtd
2019-09-21T13:46:43 #kisslinux <flacks> I mean, why wouldn't it :P
2019-09-21T13:48:32 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I've installed it in a VM before too.
2019-09-21T13:48:39 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> QEMU/KVM
2019-09-21T13:49:40 #kisslinux <flacks> ^
2019-09-21T14:01:53 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> o/
2019-09-21T14:02:00 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Welcome welcome
2019-09-21T14:02:25 #kisslinux <Erre> Thanks you Dylan
2019-09-21T14:03:25 #kisslinux <Erre> Sorry if bothering you I've just send you an email
2019-09-21T14:03:34 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Let me know if you have any questions or anything you want to talk about :)
2019-09-21T14:03:40 #kisslinux <Erre> I'm Riccardo
2019-09-21T14:03:57 #kisslinux <Erre> I'm not so used to irc
2019-09-21T14:06:04 #kisslinux <flacks> post your questions here and someone will likely get to them at some point - but we're all on different timezones here, so you might want to stick around
2019-09-21T14:06:20 #kisslinux <flacks> otherwise, it's like any other group chat platform you have today :)
2019-09-21T14:07:03 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Chat logs are available here too: https://freenode.logbot.info/kisslinux/
2019-09-21T14:07:04 #kisslinux <Erre> Thanks Flacks
2019-09-21T14:07:08 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Checking my email.
2019-09-21T14:07:25 #kisslinux <Erre> Ok thank you
2019-09-21T14:07:36 #kisslinux <flacks> yw!
2019-09-21T14:12:54 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Sent an email.
2019-09-21T14:12:54 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I'll also add here: You can package dracut yourself and generate an initramfs if you want to go that route.
2019-09-21T14:16:20 #kisslinux <Erre> Thank so much. Really kind. I'm going through the mail and KISS installation attempts
2019-09-21T14:17:39 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> I live in the West of Greece btw. Very close to Italy :)
2019-09-21T14:19:56 #kisslinux <Erre> Beautiful Greece! :) I've read the email and I'd forgot I was read the faq yesterday sorry too many things
2019-09-21T14:20:01 #kisslinux <Erre> To do
2019-09-21T14:20:45 #kisslinux <Erre> Btw honestly I dunno how such parameters works I have to investigate
2019-09-21T14:23:46 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> Yeah
2019-09-21T14:25:05 #kisslinux <Erre> See ya so with hoping good news :) Thanks again for everything
2019-09-21T14:26:19 #kisslinux <dylanaraps> No problem :)
2019-09-21T15:30:55 #kisslinux <flacks> ahhh I disabled too many thingsss now I can't enable usb webcam function -_-
2019-09-21T15:39:08 #kisslinux <flacks> oh, there we go
2019-09-21T16:34:19 #kisslinux <dylanara1> o/
2019-09-21T16:34:22 #kisslinux <dylanara1> Welcome
2019-09-21T17:06:50 #kisslinux <dylanara1> Thoughts on this message style for the package manager: https://u.teknik.io/ZR8Jn.png
2019-09-21T17:27:57 #kisslinux <dylanara1> hello hello
2019-09-21T17:38:18 #kisslinux <dredrim> So I was looking in the 'team' section in the website and just realized...
2019-09-21T17:38:41 #kisslinux <dredrim> You made the distro all on your own? o.o
2019-09-21T17:39:19 #kisslinux <dylanara1> I had some help from konimex and a lot of input and ideas from others, but largely yes.
2019-09-21T17:40:30 #kisslinux <dylanara1> These speak for themselves:
2019-09-21T17:40:35 #kisslinux <dylanara1> - https://github.com/kisslinux/kiss/graphs/contributors
2019-09-21T17:40:41 #kisslinux <dylanara1> - https://github.com/kisslinux/repo/graphs/contributors
2019-09-21T17:41:15 #kisslinux <dylanara1> - https://github.com/kisslinux/website/graphs/contributors
2019-09-21T17:41:42 #kisslinux <dredrim> Well that's quite amazing
2019-09-21T17:42:31 #kisslinux <dylanara1> Thanks :D
2019-09-21T17:42:51 #kisslinux <dylanara1> commit 0cda243d535f11e7c26b9182bc63e425deb5ba45
2019-09-21T17:42:51 #kisslinux <dylanara1> Author: Dylan Araps <dylan.araps⊙gc>
2019-09-21T17:42:51 #kisslinux <dylanara1> Date: Thu May 9 09:46:50 2019 +0300
2019-09-21T17:42:51 #kisslinux <dylanara1> new package manager experiment
2019-09-21T17:42:51 #kisslinux <dylanara1> This is the first commit and the start of KISS.
2019-09-21T17:43:32 #kisslinux <dredrim> It's so recent too, it took you just months to release 1.0
2019-09-21T17:44:54 #kisslinux <dylanara1> Yeah, nearly all of my free time goes to my projects.
2019-09-21T17:46:55 #kisslinux <dylanara1> Too much time really but hey, this entire process was a learning experience and I find that valuable. :P
2019-09-21T17:50:40 #kisslinux <dredrim> I saw a bit of your blog and other projects too
2019-09-21T17:51:45 #kisslinux <dredrim> In fact I discovered your website looking for the reason why Firefox decided it needed to compile 7GB of random nonsense
2019-09-21T17:52:29 #kisslinux <dylanara1> Yeah, web browsers are overly large nowadays.
2019-09-21T17:52:33 #kisslinux <dylanara1> It's insane.
2019-09-21T17:53:28 #kisslinux <dylanara1> The source for Firefox also includes nearly every external library it needs (and it builds with them all by default).
2019-09-21T17:53:40 #kisslinux <dylanara1> ➜ kiss-size firefox | tail -1
2019-09-21T17:53:40 #kisslinux <dylanara1> 178.2M total
2019-09-21T17:54:32 #kisslinux <dylanara1> Majority of this size comes from:
2019-09-21T17:54:39 #kisslinux <dylanara1> 106.6M /usr/lib/firefox/libxul.so
2019-09-21T17:54:55 #kisslinux <dylanara1> Which links to:
2019-09-21T17:55:04 #kisslinux <dylanara1> ➜ ldd /usr/lib/firefox/libxul.so | wc -l
2019-09-21T17:55:04 #kisslinux <dylanara1> 76
2019-09-21T17:55:16 #kisslinux <dredrim> I would love to have a lightweight browser but I'm afraid that doesn't exist anymore... and even if it would your cpu still commits seppuku because thousands of random javascript includes
2019-09-21T17:55:21 #kisslinux <dylanara1> 76 different .so files.
2019-09-21T17:56:57 #kisslinux <dylanara1> It's impossible for a single person (or even a sizable group of people) to build a "modern" web browser.
2019-09-21T17:56:57 #kisslinux <dylanara1> I don't even think you can call them web browsers anymore.
2019-09-21T17:58:10 #kisslinux <dylanara1> The standards move too fast to implement, they're so overly complex and there's just too much "stuff" to add.
2019-09-21T17:58:10 #kisslinux <dylanara1> Firefox and Chrome are both moving towards allowing websites native file access....
2019-09-21T17:59:48 #kisslinux <dredrim> I feel like everything having to do with the www is utter insanity at this point
2019-09-21T17:59:52 #kisslinux <dylanara1> We are down to a single company having control over the web (Google). They have majority market-share and have monetary control over Mozilla (90%~ of Mozilla's revenue comes from their search deal with Google).
2019-09-21T18:00:17 #kisslinux <dredrim> Auch, I didn't know the market share data
2019-09-21T18:00:33 #kisslinux <dredrim> Now I will sleep a little worse =)
2019-09-21T18:01:34 #kisslinux <dylanara1> The FSF doesn't list Firefox as being "Free Software" either.
2019-09-21T18:01:49 #kisslinux <dylanara1> As it collects a whole load of data with/without telemetry.
2019-09-21T18:02:31 #kisslinux <dylanara1> (It's the reason GNU icecat exists).
2019-09-21T18:02:31 #kisslinux <dylanara1> I do the equivalent (or close to) changes for KISS' Firefox builds.
2019-09-21T18:02:46 #kisslinux <dylanara1> It's sad since Mozilla's motto is "Internet for people, not profit".
2019-09-21T18:03:00 #kisslinux <dylanara1> I'll stop ranting now. :P
2019-09-21T18:03:02 #kisslinux <dredrim> Google motto was 'Don't be evil' too
2019-09-21T18:03:09 #kisslinux <dredrim> I like rants, np
2019-09-21T18:03:36 #kisslinux <dredrim> I was looking for something to use as a browser that doesn't make me want to end my life
2019-09-21T18:03:46 #kisslinux <dylanara1> As was I.
2019-09-21T18:03:50 #kisslinux <dredrim> Any progress?
2019-09-21T18:04:12 #kisslinux <dylanara1> There's nothing out there sadly. netsurf and dillo *are* simple and lightweight but nothing really works on them nowadays.
2019-09-21T18:04:41 #kisslinux <dylanara1> Neither have hidpi support (which I need).
2019-09-21T18:05:01 #kisslinux <dylanara1> Neither have adblocking of any kind (maybe netsurf(?)).
2019-09-21T18:05:19 #kisslinux <dylanara1> Javascript is absent from both too iirc (I'm fine with this though).
2019-09-21T18:08:02 #kisslinux <dylanara1> Nothing using Gecko, webkit, blink or qtwebengine can be called simple or lightweight at all. :(
2019-09-21T18:12:41 #kisslinux <dredrim> Well that was sad
2019-09-21T18:13:16 #kisslinux <dylanara1> The text based browsers fit the bill though they aren't really usable either.
2019-09-21T18:13:51 #kisslinux <dylanara1> A fork of a really old Firefox release with security issues fixed would be nice.
2019-09-21T18:14:28 #kisslinux <dylanara1> Something old enough to have CSS3/HTML5 and "enough" JS.
2019-09-21T18:14:59 #kisslinux <dylanara1> It'd be a ton of work though and difficult to do right.
2019-09-21T18:15:23 #kisslinux <dylanara1> Firefox currently depends on a 15~ year old version o `autoconf` to build btw.
2019-09-21T18:15:31 #kisslinux <dylanara1> of*
2019-09-21T18:21:43 #kisslinux <dredrim> I guess those are the kinds of horror stories you see when makinga packet manager
2019-09-21T18:22:31 #kisslinux <dylanara1> I could go on for days.
2019-09-21T18:22:38 #kisslinux <dylanara1> Making KISS convinced me that nothing should work.
2019-09-21T18:23:16 #kisslinux <dylanara1> > autoconf-2.13.tar.gz 1999-01-15 16:03 433K
2019-09-21T18:23:21 #kisslinux <dylanara1> I was wrong, it's older.
2019-09-21T18:26:15 #kisslinux <dredrim> 20 years rofl
2019-09-21T18:26:30 #kisslinux <dredrim> Making that a dependency is just sadism at this point
2019-09-21T18:27:20 #kisslinux <dylanara1> And the longer you leave it and the more code you write (which depends on it), the harder it is to update/remove it.
2019-09-21T18:27:56 #kisslinux <dylanara1> The same goes for Python 2 in Firefox. There's half a million lines of it and the death date has been known for 11 years now(?).
2019-09-21T18:28:20 #kisslinux <dylanara1> Work started 2-3 months ago to transition to Python 3.
2019-09-21T18:28:22 #kisslinux <dylanara1> lol
2019-09-21T18:29:39 #kisslinux <dylanara1> Forget the fact that KISS needs to package and ship GTK2 for Firefox *solely* for flash-player.
2019-09-21T18:29:45 #kisslinux <dylanara1> It can't be disabled.
2019-09-21T18:29:57 #kisslinux <dylanara1> It's a mess no matter where you look.
2019-09-21T18:39:56 #kisslinux <dredrim> Btw, why the name KISS?
2019-09-21T18:42:59 #kisslinux <dylanara1> "Keep it simple stupid"
2019-09-21T18:43:35 #kisslinux <dredrim> Ah yeah, the motto
2019-09-21T18:44:21 #kisslinux <dredrim> I guess its appropiate
2019-09-21T18:44:44 #kisslinux <dredrim> People don't seem to get it, though, for what I've read so far
2019-09-21T18:49:54 #kisslinux <dylanara1> Yeah, KISS is the kinda thing where you get it or you don't.
2019-09-21T18:50:37 #kisslinux <dylanara1> It's not meant to please everyone or be a 1:1 replacement for X distro.
2019-09-21T18:51:02 #kisslinux <dredrim> Compiling the kernel now *sips coffee*
2019-09-21T18:51:19 #kisslinux <dylanara1> This is the step which shoots most people in the foot.
2019-09-21T18:51:26 #kisslinux <dylanara1> :P
2019-09-21T18:51:42 #kisslinux <dylanara1> It took me a day to get mine working (I hadn't compiled the kernel before).
2019-09-21T18:51:56 #kisslinux <dredrim> Well I took a kernel class last year... which left me even more scared
2019-09-21T18:52:01 #kisslinux <dylanara1> I went in blind and installed KISS straight to my only piece of hardware.
2019-09-21T18:52:23 #kisslinux <dylanara1> Did _not_ boot the first time.
2019-09-21T18:52:29 #kisslinux <dredrim> Auchies
2019-09-21T18:52:35 #kisslinux <dylanara1> Had no means of checking the web either.
2019-09-21T18:52:54 #kisslinux <dylanara1> So I did 'make allnoconfig' and started from 0 until everything worked.
2019-09-21T18:53:23 #kisslinux <dylanara1> Great learning experience though.
2019-09-21T18:53:34 #kisslinux <dredrim> The pain and satisfaction of programming in one short story (?)
2019-09-21T18:53:40 #kisslinux <dylanara1> I feel like I could compile a kernel for anything now.
2019-09-21T18:53:42 #kisslinux <dylanara1> :P
2019-09-21T18:55:02 #kisslinux <dredrim> That's amazing ^^ I managed to compile it for Gentoo and make the damn thing work today for the first time
2019-09-21T18:55:07 #kisslinux <dylanara1> I need to not be sober for anything I can't wrap my head around while programming.
2019-09-21T18:55:10 #kisslinux <dylanara1> Works wonders.
2019-09-21T18:55:12 #kisslinux <dylanara1> :P
2019-09-21T18:56:14 #kisslinux <dylanara1> Or I deprive myself of sleep by only going to bed when it's done.
2019-09-21T18:56:19 #kisslinux <dylanara1> This works but hurts.
2019-09-21T18:56:49 #kisslinux <dredrim> You can combine them (?)
2019-09-21T18:56:58 #kisslinux <dylanara1> Oh yeah
2019-09-21T18:57:01 #kisslinux <dylanara1> lol
2019-09-21T18:58:22 #kisslinux <dylanara1> I'm off to bed.
2019-09-21T18:58:24 #kisslinux <dylanara1> Nice talking to you.
2019-09-21T18:58:30 #kisslinux <dredrim> Same, gnight
2019-09-21T19:06:32 #kisslinux <dredrim> Aaaand I derped it
2019-09-21T19:26:18 #kisslinux <flacks> try getting lvm on luks to work from an nvme device :P
2019-09-21T19:38:49 #kisslinux <dredrim> So I'm trying to complete the kernel install
2019-09-21T19:39:43 #kisslinux <dredrim> But I need pushd which needs bash... which isn't in the kiss repos
2019-09-21T20:45:16 #kisslinux <flacks> why do you need pushd?
2019-09-21T20:48:39 #kisslinux <dredrim> ./kernel/gen_kheaders.sh: line 30: pushd: not found
2019-09-21T20:48:48 #kisslinux <dredrim> I get that error trying to build the kernel
2019-09-21T21:01:26 #kisslinux <flacks> are you properly chrooted? i.e. did you use `kiss-chroot`1
2019-09-21T21:01:30 #kisslinux <flacks> s/1//
2019-09-21T21:03:41 #kisslinux <dredrim> Yeah I did
2019-09-21T21:03:52 #kisslinux <dredrim> Lemme try again
2019-09-21T21:04:02 #kisslinux <flacks> are you running `make install` ? i.e. the final kernel install step
2019-09-21T21:04:06 #kisslinux <flacks> ok
2019-09-21T21:04:08 #kisslinux <dredrim> Nope
2019-09-21T21:04:12 #kisslinux <dredrim> I'm running make -j
2019-09-21T21:04:28 #kisslinux <flacks> hum. try and see if you were properly chrooted.
2019-09-21T21:04:39 #kisslinux <flacks> you downloaded 5.3 tar xz from kernel.org right?
2019-09-21T21:05:00 #kisslinux <flacks> also thats `make -j "$(nproc)"` right?
2019-09-21T21:06:47 #kisslinux <dredrim> Yes to all 3 questions
2019-09-21T21:07:47 #kisslinux <dredrim> I'm super confused, didn't find any info online about that error
2019-09-21T21:08:01 #kisslinux <dredrim> Just that you need bash
2019-09-21T21:08:06 #kisslinux <flacks> can you post a log from before you chroot until that error?
2019-09-21T21:08:23 #kisslinux <flacks> nah, no bash in kiss
2019-09-21T21:10:21 #kisslinux <dredrim> I followed https://getkiss.org/pages/install/ verbatim minus the rebuild kiss step
2019-09-21T21:15:01 #kisslinux <flacks> well it's always harder without logs..
2019-09-21T21:15:22 #kisslinux <flacks> do you have CONFIG_IKHEADERS set?
2019-09-21T21:15:57 #kisslinux <dredrim> Nope, it's unset
2019-09-21T22:17:35 #kisslinux <dredrim> Ok I'm dumb
2019-09-21T22:17:49 #kisslinux <dredrim> For some reason I thought you were referring to an env variable
2019-09-21T22:17:53 #kisslinux <dredrim> Yeah I had it set
2019-09-21T22:18:01 #kisslinux <dredrim> I unchecked it now in the kernel config
2019-09-21T22:18:11 #kisslinux <dredrim> Seems to be working fine for the moment
2019-09-21T23:41:45 #kisslinux <nestman> berry has now a 'saner' makefile lol
2019-09-21T23:41:55 #kisslinux <nestman> good morning everyone
2019-09-21T23:42:02 #kisslinux <nestman> i hope you're all well