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[2023-03-25T04:14:06Z] <midfavila> https://inv.riverside.rocks/watch?v=EXY78gPMvl0
[2023-03-25T04:14:14Z] <midfavila> phoebos: you might find this interesting
[2023-03-25T04:15:12Z] <midfavila> talk by niklaus wirth about the history and development of ALGOL, Pascal, Modula/-2, and Oberon, as well as the Lilith and Ceres workstations and the Oberon System, as well as his restoration of an older textbook detailing a complete specification for an Oberon workstation, from the lowest level of hardware to the highest of software 
[2023-03-25T05:04:44Z] <sewn> hi
[2023-03-25T05:36:10Z] <sad_plan> hi
[2023-03-25T05:59:17Z] <midfavila> apparently gcc has a go frontend
[2023-03-25T05:59:20Z] <midfavila> learn something new every day
[2023-03-25T06:15:38Z] <sad_plan> when did gcc get that? I was aware of fortran or something, and a wip rust frontend, but not go
[2023-03-25T06:16:10Z] <midfavila> https://go.dev/doc/install/gccgo
[2023-03-25T06:16:10Z] <midfavila> apparently 4.7.1 included a complete first-generation Go compiler and standard library
[2023-03-25T06:16:43Z] <midfavila> gcc officially has C, C++, Ada, Go, D, and Objective-C
[2023-03-25T06:17:00Z] <sad_plan> 4.7.x is old so its been that long since they added it
[2023-03-25T06:19:32Z] <sad_plan> cant be used alot though. or Id assume so anyway
[2023-03-25T06:20:51Z] * midfavila shrugs
[2023-03-25T06:25:17Z] <midfavila> also wow CDE is kind of a pain in the ass to package
[2023-03-25T06:25:34Z] <midfavila> been fiddling on and off with it for ~2-3 days now and I'm only a little closer to getting it to run 
[2023-03-25T06:28:19Z] <midfavila> fuckn committed to getting it to run though
[2023-03-25T06:41:15Z] <midfavila> unrelated, do any of you have experience writing compilers and/or interpreters? I'd like to write an ANSI Full BASIC at some point but I'm not quite sure where to start. I know that the Dragon Book is the standard, but I figure it might be a little outdated..? 
[2023-03-25T06:51:51Z] <midfavila> looks like GCC 13 will offer modula-2 
[2023-03-25T06:51:52Z] <midfavila> fucking nice
[2023-03-25T06:52:10Z] <midfavila> now if only GNU Pascal was merged
[2023-03-25T08:12:57Z] <testuser[m]123> Gj
[2023-03-25T08:14:41Z] <midfavila> are you guys able to access ftp.gnu.org?
[2023-03-25T08:15:12Z] <sad_plan> no, I was unable to curl -I it anyway
[2023-03-25T08:16:33Z] <midfavila> rip
[2023-03-25T08:16:41Z] <midfavila> maybe red hat finally got to them
[2023-03-25T08:20:56Z] <sad_plan> midfavila: do you happen to know where I find alpine linux's compiler flags? I mean, finding gentoo's or redhats was rather simple, but finding what alpine sets as default proves to be difficult..
[2023-03-25T08:21:05Z] <midfavila> dunno
[2023-03-25T08:21:10Z] <midfavila> my use of alpine is minimal at best
[2023-03-25T08:21:29Z] <midfavila> (by that i mean I keep a copy of alpine with a build toolchain on my motherboard's integrated SSD as a rescue disk)
[2023-03-25T08:21:39Z] <midfavila> last time i touched my alpine setup was literally years ago
[2023-03-25T08:21:48Z] <sad_plan> sure. I just know you have prevously talked about fetching from other distros. and iirc alpine was mentioned. but my memory might fail me ofc
[2023-03-25T08:21:58Z] <sad_plan> I see
[2023-03-25T08:22:19Z] <midfavila> yeah, sorry
[2023-03-25T08:22:27Z] <midfavila> maybe ask in their irc if they have one?
[2023-03-25T08:22:43Z] <sad_plan> good idea
[2023-03-25T08:22:49Z] <midfavila> uwu
[2023-03-25T09:01:45Z] <midfavila> jesus
[2023-03-25T09:01:50Z] <midfavila> i just realized it's 0600
[2023-03-25T09:01:52Z] <midfavila> what the hell
[2023-03-25T09:01:59Z] <midfavila> what even is time
[2023-03-25T09:10:39Z] <testuser[m]123> Hi
[2023-03-25T09:25:47Z] <sad_plan> hi
[2023-03-25T10:10:53Z] <sewn> hj
[2023-03-25T10:10:54Z] <sewn> hi
[2023-03-25T23:10:52Z] <riteo> hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiI!
[2023-03-25T23:11:07Z] <riteo> It's been a long, long time, hasn't it?
[2023-03-25T23:11:11Z] <midfavila> oh, hey. it has
[2023-03-25T23:11:20Z] <riteo> hi mid!
[2023-03-25T23:11:28Z] <midfavila> i was thinking about you the other day after hearing the spider man 2 pizza delivery song :D
[2023-03-25T23:11:39Z] <riteo> oh look at that
[2023-03-25T23:11:49Z] <midfavila> looking at it
[2023-03-25T23:11:59Z] <riteo> great, now really look it in the soul
[2023-03-25T23:12:27Z] <riteo> btw it may not look like that, but I've always been there, steadily maintaining my two packages: kakoune and fuse
[2023-03-25T23:12:43Z] <midfavila> i wouldn't know
[2023-03-25T23:12:48Z] <midfavila> i haven't used the mainline kiss repo in like
[2023-03-25T23:12:51Z] <midfavila> two years lmao
[2023-03-25T23:12:56Z] <midfavila> https://inv.riverside.rocks/watch?v=B7gGacb8cO4
[2023-03-25T23:13:13Z] <riteo> oh yeah I heard about pizza tower
[2023-03-25T23:13:14Z] <midfavila> pov you encounter riteo in a dark alleyway in the middle of the night
[2023-03-25T23:13:25Z] <riteo> I can confirm that this is the true italian experience
[2023-03-25T23:13:27Z] <midfavila> okay enough pizza jokes
[2023-03-25T23:13:30Z] <midfavila> as funny as they are
[2023-03-25T23:13:41Z] <riteo> there's also pasta
[2023-03-25T23:13:51Z] <midfavila> it's pizza tower you rube
[2023-03-25T23:13:53Z] <midfavila> not pasta tower
[2023-03-25T23:14:03Z] <riteo> right, but you could also make pasta jokes
[2023-03-25T23:14:04Z] <riteo> mandolinos
[2023-03-25T23:14:06Z] <riteo> hell, mafia
[2023-03-25T23:14:16Z] <midfavila> i couldn't because pizza > pasta
[2023-03-25T23:14:21Z] <riteo> if not, we could talk about a very niche topic that nobody likes here
[2023-03-25T23:14:24Z] <midfavila> airtight logic
[2023-03-25T23:14:25Z] <riteo> such as minimalist software :P
[2023-03-25T23:14:37Z] <midfavila> not niche enough
[2023-03-25T23:14:42Z] <midfavila> we need to go nicher
[2023-03-25T23:14:51Z] <riteo> I mean, I was going to talk about a pax implementation
[2023-03-25T23:14:58Z] <riteo> at least, one that I suppose is going to be generic
[2023-03-25T23:15:11Z] <midfavila> such as the intricacies of naming packages and whether information should be conveyed implicitly via the structure of the file system or explicitly via files themselves
[2023-03-25T23:15:13Z] <riteo> mcf's been doing a new one from scratch under the public domain, but I still got no word from them
[2023-03-25T23:15:25Z] <midfavila> that's pretty cool
[2023-03-25T23:15:32Z] <riteo> the pax or the packaging
[2023-03-25T23:15:35Z] <midfavila> pax
[2023-03-25T23:15:40Z] <riteo> cause I'm also extremely interested in the packaging stuff
[2023-03-25T23:15:42Z] <midfavila> i haven't done much programming lately
[2023-03-25T23:15:51Z] <riteo> btw yeah, but as I said they've not answered to my mail yet
[2023-03-25T23:15:55Z] <riteo> and it's been, like, two months
[2023-03-25T23:15:59Z] <midfavila> i did however learn that athena has nested menu support which is a thing
[2023-03-25T23:16:02Z] <midfavila> and idk he's probably busy
[2023-03-25T23:16:19Z] <midfavila> oh, actually, something i have been up to that you might find neat
[2023-03-25T23:16:23Z] <midfavila> i'm porting CDE to KISS
[2023-03-25T23:16:32Z] <midfavila> (very) slowly
[2023-03-25T23:16:34Z] <riteo> wait what's cde
[2023-03-25T23:16:39Z] <midfavila> the common desktop environment
[2023-03-25T23:16:45Z] <riteo> ooooooh right
[2023-03-25T23:16:47Z] <riteo> that old unix thing
[2023-03-25T23:16:54Z] <riteo> cool!
[2023-03-25T23:16:55Z] <midfavila> it's still maintained ;w;
[2023-03-25T23:16:59Z] <riteo> crazy
[2023-03-25T23:17:03Z] <riteo> what are is dependencies?
[2023-03-25T23:17:06Z] <riteo> I don't think many
[2023-03-25T23:17:13Z] <midfavila> yeah not that many honestly
[2023-03-25T23:17:27Z] <midfavila> off the top of my head, motif, libtirpc, rpcsvc, uhhhhh
[2023-03-25T23:17:43Z] <riteo> cool
[2023-03-25T23:17:53Z] <midfavila> tcl, libutempter, and nawk as well
[2023-03-25T23:18:01Z] <midfavila> in addition to the standard X11 libraries
[2023-03-25T23:18:08Z] <riteo> oh so it's x11 based, great
[2023-03-25T23:18:10Z] <midfavila> e.g xss, xau, whatever
[2023-03-25T23:18:13Z] <riteo> so it will be compatible with most stuff lmao
[2023-03-25T23:18:15Z] <midfavila> and yeah of course
[2023-03-25T23:18:17Z] <riteo> for now :P
[2023-03-25T23:18:47Z] <midfavila> right when gtk5 comes out in 2025 and people finally migrate to it in 2035 X11 will die
[2023-03-25T23:19:16Z] <riteo> wonder if by then most consumer shit will have switched to fuchsia...
[2023-03-25T23:19:19Z] <midfavila> but by then i'll either a) be dead or b) be a competent programmer so I'll just write my own graphics subsystem
[2023-03-25T23:19:26Z] <midfavila> eh i wouldn't be surprised
[2023-03-25T23:20:07Z] <riteo> one of the few places where "unrestrictive" free licenses aren't welcomed
[2023-03-25T23:21:05Z] <riteo> btw I've still not made any progress with my package manager, although that pax implementation is really tempting me to use it (hoping it to be complete enough, again no idea)
[2023-03-25T23:21:36Z] * midfavila nods
[2023-03-25T23:21:46Z] <riteo> and I'm beginning to make my own shitty poor-ass optic and sensor based 6 DoF tracking for an even shittier and poorer-ass VR
[2023-03-25T23:21:50Z] <riteo> because cruelty squad
[2023-03-25T23:22:08Z] <riteo> have you heard of it? It's also made in godot
[2023-03-25T23:22:08Z] <midfavila> hey that's more interesting than anything i've done like, ever, lmao
[2023-03-25T23:22:12Z] <riteo> hella good game
[2023-03-25T23:22:16Z] <midfavila> and no, i haven't
[2023-03-25T23:22:19Z] <midfavila> i don't really play games
[2023-03-25T23:22:48Z] <riteo> midfavila: the first start is like extra dumb, everything's already implemented in opencv (I'm using some stupid AR trackers supported by it) and monado already included it
[2023-03-25T23:23:03Z] <riteo> some hacking and I have a monado fork with a shitty optical only head tracking
[2023-03-25T23:23:15Z] <riteo> which took like two days
[2023-03-25T23:23:22Z] <riteo> the hard part is getting the sensors ugh
[2023-03-25T23:23:35Z] <riteo> btw didn't you like FPSes?
[2023-03-25T23:24:11Z] <midfavila> not really
[2023-03-25T23:24:20Z] <midfavila> sometimes i play the original doom
[2023-03-25T23:24:33Z] <midfavila> i'm really bad at FPSes in general though, and I'm generally not a fan
[2023-03-25T23:24:35Z] <shokara> doom is nice
[2023-03-25T23:24:44Z] <riteo> oh all right
[2023-03-25T23:27:44Z] <riteo> how has it been going for y'all and how has your relationship with KISS evolved?
[2023-03-25T23:28:10Z] <shokara> well it's the only distro I don't hate using for one
[2023-03-25T23:28:35Z] <riteo> tbh I think that also alpine has some nice values that could be taken
[2023-03-25T23:29:14Z] <shokara> the only thing it's missing is a KIϟϟ Tux. puffy from openbsd already has one: https://www.openbsd.org/images/sixdotsix.gif
[2023-03-25T23:29:54Z] <riteo> holy fuck that's cool as fuck
[2023-03-25T23:29:59Z] <shokara> I know right?
[2023-03-25T23:30:05Z] <riteo> but why attractive female demon
[2023-03-25T23:30:10Z] <shokara> \_(:/)_/
[2023-03-25T23:31:02Z] <riteo> btw I do generally agree yeah, KISS's a great distribution, although it could be improved a lot IMO without going too complex
[2023-03-25T23:31:09Z] <midfavila> oBSD has some pretty great promo materials 
[2023-03-25T23:31:13Z] <riteo> the question comes what to take away and what to put in
[2023-03-25T23:31:41Z] <riteo> hence my ever-growing delirio.txt (delirium.txt if it were in english) file in the lips source directory
[2023-03-25T23:32:17Z] <riteo> I think I'm slowly coming to a decent point but there are still lots of questions and stuff that I still have no idea how to fix
[2023-03-25T23:32:37Z] <riteo> but, recall that idea of making pipes for different stages of the packing process? I finally got why it was such a great idea
[2023-03-25T23:33:02Z] <riteo> two main usecases: build servers and linux phones
[2023-03-25T23:33:44Z] <riteo> preprocess query and dependencies -- goes to build server --> builds package -- goes back to computer --> installs package
[2023-03-25T23:33:49Z] <riteo> or, in the case of the linux phone:
[2023-03-25T23:34:03Z] <shokara> so basically something similar to distcc?
[2023-03-25T23:34:14Z] <riteo> preprocess query and dependencies -- stays on computer but gets still piped --> builds -- goes to phone --> installs package
[2023-03-25T23:34:22Z] <shokara> nvm this reminds me of poudriere
[2023-03-25T23:34:24Z] <riteo> shokara: kind of, only that it offloads the whole building to a single server
[2023-03-25T23:34:30Z] <riteo> poudriere? Never heard of it
[2023-03-25T23:34:50Z] <shokara> iirc it's freebsd's way of doing what you described?
[2023-03-25T23:34:58Z] <riteo> I'll take a look at it
[2023-03-25T23:35:04Z] <riteo> if it were a tried-and-tested method that'd be great
[2023-03-25T23:35:26Z] <shokara> https://github.com/freebsd/poudriere
[2023-03-25T23:36:28Z] <riteo> mh, it's not really explained well but I think that this is mostly an all-in-one tool for testing and building packages?
[2023-03-25T23:36:44Z] <shokara> yes, seems like its mainly used for bulk building on a server
[2023-03-25T23:37:28Z] <riteo> I mean, my approach would ideally have perhaps also a chroot to have more consistent packages, so we're similar there
[2023-03-25T23:37:47Z] <riteo> the idea would be to make this """""new""""" KISS way more modular and UNIX-like
[2023-03-25T23:38:35Z] <riteo> as it's got a lot of issues, such as priviledge, dependency and fork handling
[2023-03-25T23:38:56Z] <riteo> the last one, the one which requires one to make a fork for the tiniest change one might want to make at compiler time has still no answer from my part
[2023-03-25T23:39:18Z] <riteo> but yeah, I don't think that my piping idea isthe same as poudriere
[2023-03-25T23:39:51Z] <riteo> I've been planning to explore stuff like s6 and plan 9 which supposedly work a lot on the "UNIX philosophy"
[2023-03-25T23:40:10Z] <riteo> I think that the processing approach would be more akin to plan9?
[2023-03-25T23:40:16Z] <riteo> as they have CPU servers
[2023-03-25T23:40:18Z] <shokara> yeah
[2023-03-25T23:41:42Z] <riteo> btw yeah, I've been putting a shitton of ideas and yet I only have partial ideas on what to keep and what to throw, but I hope to come out with something deeply experimental but at least slightly "better" and hopefully compatible through extensions of some sort to KISS in the coming time
[2023-03-25T23:42:06Z] <riteo> perhaps during the summer as I'm extremely busy lately and I still haven't setup that damn bouncer
[2023-03-25T23:42:52Z] <riteo> also my server's down as I'm too lazy to fix my 3d printer to print some actual supports instead of the shitty clicky-plastic-lace-thingies I used
[2023-03-25T23:43:57Z] <riteo> (I rambled too much as usual)
[2023-03-25T23:44:07Z] <riteo> also yeah, openbsd has some badass promo art
[2023-03-25T23:44:08Z] <riteo> gimme mor