💾 Archived View for gemini.ctrl-c.club › ~phoebos › logs › kisslinux-2021-06-24.txt captured on 2024-05-10 at 14:24:16.

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[2021-06-24T00:00:59Z] <illiliti> there is also gtar and gnu-netcat
[2021-06-24T00:01:12Z] <illiliti> inconsistency!
[2021-06-24T00:01:59Z] <illiliti> we need to pick single prefix for gnu tools
[2021-06-24T00:02:26Z] <midfavila> agreed
[2021-06-24T00:02:35Z] <illiliti> i vote for gnu-
[2021-06-24T00:03:14Z] <midfavila> ...uhhhhhhh, what the fuck-
[2021-06-24T00:03:30Z] <midfavila> somehow a C program I wrote ended up accessing environment variables without me writing the code to do so.
[2021-06-24T00:03:34Z] <midfavila> ...
[2021-06-24T00:04:15Z] <illiliti> looks like you're doing uninitialized read
[2021-06-24T00:04:22Z] <illiliti> check bounds
[2021-06-24T00:05:03Z] <midfavila> That's what I thought, but I shouldn't be... unless... hm.
[2021-06-24T00:10:20Z] <illiliti> kernelc_: still here?
[2021-06-24T00:11:37Z] <illiliti> kernelc_: possible fix https://termbin.com/x3cp, not tested
[2021-06-24T00:17:11Z] <midfavila> gah, this is so annoying
[2021-06-24T00:17:45Z] <midfavila> i've got a program that attempts to delete any character in array s that matches a character in array r, and it works when array r has a single element
[2021-06-24T00:17:58Z] <midfavila> but any more than that and it acts unpredictably
[2021-06-24T00:19:11Z] <midfavila> adding a check to prevent one of my counters, j, from exceeding the value of another counter used to index s, i, prevents it from segving, but then it just overwrites the first x number of characters in s, where x is the number of elements of r...
[2021-06-24T00:19:28Z] <illiliti> ensure that there is no off-by-one error
[2021-06-24T00:20:12Z] <midfavila> I mean, based on my understanding of off-by-ones, there isn't... but I'm not entirely sure.
[2021-06-24T00:20:22Z] <midfavila> I'll upload it to 0x0, if you want to peek at my horrible programming
[2021-06-24T00:21:19Z] <midfavila> http://0x0.st/-9hF.c
[2021-06-24T00:21:21Z] <midfavila> here.
[2021-06-24T00:21:37Z] <kernelc_> illiliti: I will test it in a moment
[2021-06-24T00:22:00Z] <midfavila> the bug is probably super obvious, but I'm a brainlet and can't see it. i don't really want to expand the program's iterations...
[2021-06-24T00:22:23Z] <illiliti> wow, your code style is pretty bad
[2021-06-24T00:22:39Z] <midfavila> so i've been told.
[2021-06-24T00:23:11Z] <illiliti> ++i << this is source of off-by-one errors
[2021-06-24T00:23:31Z] <illiliti> i would consider ++i as harmful thing
[2021-06-24T00:25:12Z] <midfavila> what, in the array initialization? it doesn't have an affect either way. at least in this case.
[2021-06-24T00:25:14Z] <kernelc_> uh, '++i' is used in 'The C Programming Language' book in all cases that doesn't requires behaviour of 'i++'
[2021-06-24T00:25:29Z] <illiliti> even go dropped ++i and left only i++
[2021-06-24T00:25:37Z] <midfavila> okay, well
[2021-06-24T00:25:44Z] <kernelc_> I thouht that book omits/points all harmful things about C :(
[2021-06-24T00:25:47Z] <midfavila> i don't really want to debate the technical faults of C right now
[2021-06-24T00:29:36Z] <illiliti> midfavila: you can initialize char[] to zero at declaration
[2021-06-24T00:30:04Z] <illiliti> char s[20] = {0};
[2021-06-24T00:30:10Z] <midfavila> Ah.
[2021-06-24T00:30:41Z] <midfavila> Why the braces around 0?
[2021-06-24T00:31:06Z] <illiliti> because char[] is array
[2021-06-24T00:31:20Z] <kernelc_> illiliti: your patch works! I was trying to debug it for about a hour…
[2021-06-24T00:31:36Z] <illiliti> there is also gnu extension that allows to omit 0
[2021-06-24T00:31:39Z] <illiliti> kernelc_: nice!
[2021-06-24T00:31:50Z] <kernelc_> thanks :)
[2021-06-24T00:31:52Z] <midfavila> That's not a very good explanation. What makes the braces different from double-quotes? Do braces just tell the compiler that it's a special value, or something?
[2021-06-24T00:31:56Z] <illiliti> i will push this fix to master
[2021-06-24T00:32:03Z] <midfavila> and I don't really want to use GNU extensions... 
[2021-06-24T00:32:12Z] <illiliti> yeah
[2021-06-24T00:32:14Z] <kernelc_> "0" produces {0, '\0'}
[2021-06-24T00:32:28Z] <illiliti> i just let you know
[2021-06-24T00:32:45Z] <midfavila> so then {0} is a string of literal zeroes with no nullterm..?
[2021-06-24T00:33:07Z] <kernelc_> I think so
[2021-06-24T00:33:15Z] <illiliti> 0 is a nullterm itself
[2021-06-24T00:33:42Z] <midfavila> Sure, I know, but you haven't explained how the braces allow an array to be filled like that.
[2021-06-24T00:37:16Z] <illiliti> If there are fewer initializers in a brace-enclosed list than there are elements or membersof an aggregate, or fewer characters in a string literal used to initialize an array of knownsize  than  there  are  elements  in  the  array,the  remainder  of  the  aggregate  shall  beinitialized implicitly the same as objects that have static storage duration.
[2021-06-24T00:37:56Z] <midfavila> Makes sense.
[2021-06-24T00:38:03Z] <illiliti> C99 6.7.8/21
[2021-06-24T00:38:13Z] <midfavila> Oh, it's C99. That's why I haven't run into it.
[2021-06-24T00:38:26Z] <midfavila> I've only been learning C89.
[2021-06-24T00:38:46Z] <illiliti> wow
[2021-06-24T00:39:04Z] <midfavila> I mean, that's what K&R is for, so...
[2021-06-24T00:39:06Z] * midfavila shrugs
[2021-06-24T00:39:18Z] <kernelc_> what are you recommending for learning C? I'm reading 'The C Programming Language' book for now
[2021-06-24T00:43:14Z] <acheam> yes
[2021-06-24T00:43:38Z] <acheam> but I'm an amateur so dont take my opinion too seriously
[2021-06-24T00:44:31Z] <acheam> anyone here good with cups?
[2021-06-24T00:44:38Z] <acheam> oops didn't mean to send that
[2021-06-24T00:44:44Z] <acheam> already figured out the problem
[2021-06-24T00:49:37Z] <illiliti> kernelc_: https://beej.us/guide/bgc/html/index.html
[2021-06-24T00:50:02Z] <illiliti> and practice, more practice than reading
[2021-06-24T00:51:00Z] <illiliti> K&C is good too, but i don't like it
[2021-06-24T00:51:22Z] <illiliti> s/C/R/
[2021-06-24T00:54:03Z] <kernelc_> illiliti: thanks :)
[2021-06-24T01:12:56Z] <illiliti> midfavila: can you post output that you want to achieve?
[2021-06-24T01:13:30Z] <acheam> nvm I do have a cups question
[2021-06-24T01:13:40Z] <acheam> when I run lpinfo -m
[2021-06-24T01:13:52Z] <acheam> I get "lpinfo: Internal Server Error"
[2021-06-24T01:14:01Z] <acheam> which is confusing and annoying
[2021-06-24T01:14:26Z] <acheam> nothing helpful in logs
[2021-06-24T01:14:40Z] <acheam> same issue seems to be happening in the web interface
[2021-06-24T01:39:33Z] <riteo> acheam: I think I've seen that error before on my mom's debian install
[2021-06-24T01:40:03Z] <riteo> maybe it needs extra configuration? I don't think I've ever seen it working IIRC
[2021-06-24T01:52:55Z] <midfavila> me mum's doobian install
[2021-06-24T01:53:04Z] <midfavila> your mom sounds pretty based ngl
[2021-06-24T01:54:04Z] <midfavila> anyway, update on the program. decided that it would be better to do multiple passes over the array for each element in the other array, instead of trying to do it all at once. this seems to work, aside from some trouble placing a nullterm when concluding all passes, but one more pass should be enough to fix that
[2021-06-24T01:55:03Z] <riteo> midfavila: Eh, it's not like she's a linux nerd or whatever
[2021-06-24T01:55:15Z] <riteo> I just convinced her to install it because she has a shitty computer
[2021-06-24T01:55:31Z] <midfavila> now convince her to use DWM and surf
[2021-06-24T01:55:38Z] <riteo> "As long as I can use a web browser every once in a while, I'm fine"
[2021-06-24T01:55:51Z] <riteo> one step at a time, one step at a time
[2021-06-24T01:55:58Z] <midfavila> n o 
[2021-06-24T01:56:07Z] <midfavila> she needs to use a memewm and browser rn
[2021-06-24T01:56:16Z] <midfavila> literally walk up to her, t-pose, and be like
[2021-06-24T01:56:42Z] <midfavila> "mom, we need to have a conversation about your computer. not only is there bloated software, but there's *proprietary* software. this is clearly a threat to both your freedom and mine."
[2021-06-24T01:56:49Z] <riteo> that'd be very funny, considering she's sleeping rn
[2021-06-24T01:56:58Z] <midfavila> sleep is for the weak
[2021-06-24T01:57:06Z] <riteo> you know mid, the shifted timezone thing
[2021-06-24T01:57:08Z] <midfavila> i should know, i've slept maybe eight hours in the past week
[2021-06-24T01:57:13Z] <riteo> It's almost 4 AM here
[2021-06-24T01:57:19Z] <midfavila> go to bed smh
[2021-06-24T01:57:23Z] <riteo> I woke up very late
[2021-06-24T01:57:31Z] <riteo> as I said, I basically shifted my timezone
[2021-06-24T01:57:44Z] <midfavila> rip
[2021-06-24T01:58:02Z] <midfavila> I've been trying to keep a consistent sleep schedule lately
[2021-06-24T01:58:02Z] <riteo> actually I prefer it this way, It's waaay more calm at night
[2021-06-24T01:58:13Z] <midfavila> it's done wonders for my ability to focus. and yeah, I would imagine
[2021-06-24T01:58:26Z] <midfavila> i prefer it at night where I live, too... except for all the fucking PLANES flying overhead
[2021-06-24T01:58:43Z] <midfavila> i'd rather be back on base. at least they didn't start firing artillery until six AM.
[2021-06-24T01:58:58Z] <riteo> wdym
[2021-06-24T01:59:04Z] <riteo> also oh yeah, having a consistent sleep schedule more than a long one really does wonders to the mind and body
[2021-06-24T01:59:40Z] <midfavila> oh, my parents are military, so I used to live on a military base. meaning my alarm clock consisted of either a) artillery batteries going off in the distance or b) armored vehicles rolling down the street
[2021-06-24T01:59:57Z] <riteo> oh
[2021-06-24T02:00:01Z] <midfavila> but during the night it was *dead* quiet
[2021-06-24T02:00:13Z] <midfavila> was really nice.
[2021-06-24T02:00:16Z] <riteo> that's a weird alarm clock, now *that's
[2021-06-24T02:00:21Z] <riteo> oh no
[2021-06-24T02:00:23Z] <riteo> I said
[2021-06-24T02:00:38Z] <riteo> that's a weird alarm clock, now *that's* weird military stuff
[2021-06-24T02:01:03Z] <riteo> do you get it
[2021-06-24T02:01:03Z] <midfavila> meh. not so weird when you've spent most of your life around it.
[2021-06-24T02:01:07Z] <midfavila> no, I don't.
[2021-06-24T02:01:11Z] <midfavila> is this some sort of pun.
[2021-06-24T02:01:20Z] <riteo> mid you collect weird military and industrial hardware, right?
[2021-06-24T02:01:28Z] <midfavila> Oh. Yeah.
[2021-06-24T02:01:33Z] <riteo> that's the joke
[2021-06-24T02:01:43Z] <midfavila> ...O h
[2021-06-24T02:01:46Z] * midfavila facedesks
[2021-06-24T02:01:58Z] <midfavila> i'm kind of brain-dead right now. moreso than usual
[2021-06-24T02:02:11Z] <riteo> don't worry, that happens to me a lot
[2021-06-24T02:02:24Z] <midfavila> but yeah, I feel like the government would have a few things to say to me if I "acquired" an artillery battery.
[2021-06-24T02:02:38Z] <midfavila> somehow I feel like that falls under the realm of "restricted firearms"
[2021-06-24T02:03:19Z] <riteo> the definitive military hardware is stored in the pentagon
[2021-06-24T02:03:22Z] <riteo> what are you waiting mid
[2021-06-24T02:03:40Z] <riteo> c o l l e c t
[2021-06-24T02:03:42Z] <midfavila> >modern american hardware
[2021-06-24T02:03:42Z] <midfavila> ew
[2021-06-24T02:04:08Z] <midfavila> they can keep their heart-attack guns
[2021-06-24T02:04:08Z] <riteo> >implying militaries use modern hardware/software
[2021-06-24T02:04:27Z] <riteo> they're probably stuck in windows 95
[2021-06-24T02:04:27Z] <midfavila> actually the US military is overhauling its computing infrastructure
[2021-06-24T02:04:31Z] <riteo> oh
[2021-06-24T02:04:32Z] <midfavila> ahahahahaha
[2021-06-24T02:04:37Z] <midfavila> that's probably what they're upgrading to
[2021-06-24T02:04:41Z] <riteo> lmao
[2021-06-24T02:04:46Z] <midfavila> for decades they've used ancient mainframes running like
[2021-06-24T02:04:50Z] <midfavila> CP/M or some shit
[2021-06-24T02:04:52Z] <riteo> bruh
[2021-06-24T02:04:54Z] <midfavila> to control their warheads
[2021-06-24T02:05:04Z] <midfavila> complete with 5.25" floppies
[2021-06-24T02:05:11Z] <riteo> crazy
[2021-06-24T02:05:39Z] <midfavila> one sec, I have to implement this second check in my function...
[2021-06-24T02:05:44Z] <riteo> no worries
[2021-06-24T02:10:06Z] <noocsharp> i just finished replacing a thermal fuse in a toaster
[2021-06-24T02:10:15Z] <riteo> cool
[2021-06-24T02:10:19Z] <midfavila> toster
[2021-06-24T02:10:25Z] <noocsharp> toaster oven that is
[2021-06-24T02:10:32Z] <midfavila> those are cute
[2021-06-24T02:11:54Z] <noocsharp> tbh we need an free toaster
[2021-06-24T02:12:16Z] <riteo> it's called a pan
[2021-06-24T02:12:18Z] <acheam> ?
[2021-06-24T02:12:31Z] <noocsharp> libre toaster
[2021-06-24T02:12:45Z] <acheam> your toaster has software?
[2021-06-24T02:12:59Z] <riteo> I guess noocsharp refers to the CAD/blueprints
[2021-06-24T02:13:01Z] <noocsharp> its a toaster oven
[2021-06-24T02:13:07Z] <acheam> oh
[2021-06-24T02:13:08Z] <midfavila> muh microcontrollers!!!
[2021-06-24T02:13:12Z] <riteo> bruh
[2021-06-24T02:13:23Z] <acheam> solution:
[2021-06-24T02:13:26Z] <riteo> pan
[2021-06-24T02:13:27Z] <midfavila> GNU+toast
[2021-06-24T02:13:29Z] <acheam> buy an oven and buy a toaster
[2021-06-24T02:13:33Z] <riteo> or
[2021-06-24T02:13:34Z] <acheam> separately
[2021-06-24T02:13:34Z] <riteo> pan
[2021-06-24T02:13:35Z] <midfavila> better solution
[2021-06-24T02:13:36Z] <midfavila> fire
[2021-06-24T02:13:45Z] <midfavila> even better solution
[2021-06-24T02:13:47Z] <riteo> pan/fire
[2021-06-24T02:13:50Z] <midfavila> stick+food
[2021-06-24T02:13:50Z] <midfavila> in fire
[2021-06-24T02:13:58Z] <acheam> wouldn't the stick burn?
[2021-06-24T02:14:07Z] <noocsharp> woludn't the food burn?
[2021-06-24T02:14:09Z] <midfavila> not if you fire-treat it first
[2021-06-24T02:14:13Z] <acheam> oh
[2021-06-24T02:14:15Z] <midfavila> and the food wouldn't burn if you cooked it properly
[2021-06-24T02:14:24Z] <acheam> will you fire treat the food too?
[2021-06-24T02:14:39Z] <midfavila> anyway yeah, what you do is you stick the wood into the charcoals and ash at the base of the pit
[2021-06-24T02:14:56Z] <midfavila> it won't burn because of the anaerobic environment or w/e
[2021-06-24T02:15:01Z] <midfavila> but it'll harden and blacken 
[2021-06-24T02:15:08Z] <riteo> or simply:
[2021-06-24T02:15:09Z] <riteo> pan
[2021-06-24T02:15:21Z] <midfavila> silence, pasta-slurper
[2021-06-24T02:15:35Z] <riteo> ovens are for bruschettas
[2021-06-24T02:16:51Z] <midfavila> https://vid.puffyan.us/watch?v=czTksCF6X8Y
[2021-06-24T02:16:55Z] <midfavila> sotd acheam
[2021-06-24T02:17:12Z] <riteo> is it the doom/netbsd on toaster video?
[2021-06-24T02:17:17Z] <midfavila> no
[2021-06-24T02:17:21Z] <riteo> O H
[2021-06-24T02:17:22Z] <midfavila> it's the spiderman 2 pizza delivery song
[2021-06-24T02:17:25Z] <midfavila> lmao
[2021-06-24T02:17:57Z] <riteo> basically a funiculì funiculà remix for the PS2
[2021-06-24T02:18:05Z] <midfavila> "theme of riteo"
[2021-06-24T02:18:10Z] <riteo> actually it's pretty close
[2021-06-24T02:18:22Z] <riteo> I'm neapolitan, funiculì funiculà too
[2021-06-24T02:18:33Z] <midfavila> amazing
[2021-06-24T02:18:47Z] <riteo> also I ate pizza this evening
[2021-06-24T02:18:53Z] <midfavila> *even better*
[2021-06-24T02:18:55Z] <riteo> I'm full italian mode and you can't stop me
[2021-06-24T02:19:02Z] <midfavila> did you put pasta on the pizza
[2021-06-24T02:19:08Z] <riteo> no
[2021-06-24T02:19:14Z] <midfavila> smh
[2021-06-24T02:19:18Z] <midfavila> you bring shame to the mafia, riteo
[2021-06-24T02:19:26Z] <riteo> wait I'm trying to think if someone's done that
[2021-06-24T02:19:36Z] <midfavila> 100% someone's done it
[2021-06-24T02:19:39Z] <riteo> obv
[2021-06-24T02:19:44Z] <riteo> I'm talking about here
[2021-06-24T02:20:09Z] <riteo> eeeh the cloest thing I can think of pasta on a pizza is actually the sauce of various pasta types
[2021-06-24T02:20:28Z] <riteo> those a things done by more weird pizzerias, like pizzas with amatriciana's sauce on top
[2021-06-24T02:20:44Z] <midfavila> i wouldn't know. i'm boring and just order from dominos, kek
[2021-06-24T02:20:55Z] <riteo> >dominos
[2021-06-24T02:20:59Z] <midfavila> i know, i know
[2021-06-24T02:21:01Z] <riteo> now the mafia is angry
[2021-06-24T02:21:03Z] <midfavila> it's not even real pizza
[2021-06-24T02:21:24Z] <riteo> oh my god what have you done mid
[2021-06-24T02:21:25Z] <midfavila> but there's no other place where I can order my signature garlic sauce-steak-sausage-mushroom-olive pizza
[2021-06-24T02:21:46Z] <riteo> after hearing that song and talking about this I'm seriously hearing my voice in my head as mario
[2021-06-24T02:21:50Z] <riteo> like, writing this I hear mario
[2021-06-24T02:21:53Z] <midfavila> excellent
[2021-06-24T02:22:19Z] <riteo> garlic sauce?
[2021-06-24T02:22:30Z] <midfavila> yeah. it's like, garlic ranch, or something. i get it instead of tomato sauce
[2021-06-24T02:22:34Z] <midfavila> 's pretty good.
[2021-06-24T02:22:52Z] <riteo> that's hard to comprehend for me
[2021-06-24T02:23:07Z] <midfavila> just wait until I put anchovies and pineapple on there
[2021-06-24T02:23:21Z] <riteo> god
[2021-06-24T02:23:26Z] <riteo> you do you
[2021-06-24T02:23:33Z] <riteo> but anchovies are good on pizza
[2021-06-24T02:23:37Z] <riteo> it's pretty traditional
[2021-06-24T02:23:38Z] * midfavila puts pineapple on riteo
[2021-06-24T02:23:43Z] * riteo dies
[2021-06-24T02:24:17Z] <midfavila> i actually hate pineapple on pizza
[2021-06-24T02:24:22Z] <midfavila> or in general really
[2021-06-24T02:24:26Z] <midfavila> i like pineapple juice though
[2021-06-24T02:24:31Z] <riteo> I love pineapple actually
[2021-06-24T02:24:34Z] <riteo> never tasted it on pizza though
[2021-06-24T02:24:44Z] <midfavila> it's really good if you mix it with seltzer or sprite or something
[2021-06-24T02:24:51Z] <riteo> I don't plan nor can taste it though on a *real* pizza
[2021-06-24T02:25:05Z] <riteo> if you go to any half-decent pizzeria they'll spit on your face garaunteed
[2021-06-24T02:25:14Z] <midfavila> right, real pizza! I've had that before. like digiorno's!
[2021-06-24T02:25:25Z] <riteo> although there's this american-style pizzeria that my parents loved but that I convinced to avoid
[2021-06-24T02:25:32Z] <riteo> I swear, that dough was *sweet*
[2021-06-24T02:25:46Z] <midfavila> oh, yeah. american food is loaded with sugar
[2021-06-24T02:25:55Z] <riteo> why though
[2021-06-24T02:26:08Z] <necromansy> even american white bread is sugar loaded
[2021-06-24T02:26:09Z] <necromansy> idgi
[2021-06-24T02:26:10Z] <midfavila> because it's tasty and a cheap way to get people to buy your shit over and over again
[2021-06-24T02:26:14Z] <midfavila> that's it.
[2021-06-24T02:26:26Z] <riteo> >tasty
[2021-06-24T02:26:32Z] <riteo> that's a pretty subjective thing tbh
[2021-06-24T02:26:43Z] <midfavila> tasty in the sense that it makes your brain react in the "holy fuck I need more of this" way
[2021-06-24T02:26:50Z] <midfavila> it's the same thing that happens with like, fats, and stuff.
[2021-06-24T02:26:52Z] <riteo> oh
[2021-06-24T02:26:54Z] <riteo> makes sense
[2021-06-24T02:26:59Z] <midfavila> yeah. 
[2021-06-24T02:26:59Z] <necromansy> me rn with my vegan toasties
[2021-06-24T02:27:31Z] <midfavila> i've been avoiding sugar lately and now whenever I have grocery-store food it's fucking awful
[2021-06-24T02:27:45Z] <midfavila> but the local market hasn't opened back up...
[2021-06-24T02:28:05Z] <riteo> yeah, once you stop getting used to processed food everything tastes very bad
[2021-06-24T02:28:11Z] <riteo> I know you aren't american mid, but do you know if it is true that down there (and maybe also where you live) organic food is very expensive?
[2021-06-24T02:28:14Z] <midfavila> well, here's the thing, right
[2021-06-24T02:28:17Z] <midfavila> oh, yeah
[2021-06-24T02:28:21Z] <riteo> I've heard stuff like that
[2021-06-24T02:28:22Z] <midfavila> org food is crazy overpriced
[2021-06-24T02:28:28Z] <riteo> oh
[2021-06-24T02:28:32Z] <midfavila> it's like, two to three times the price of the shitty stuff, in some cases
[2021-06-24T02:28:43Z] <riteo> the funny thing is that there some things are only organic
[2021-06-24T02:29:00Z] <midfavila> but yeah, when it comes to "processed" food, the problem is that what most people associate with it is the shit that's loaded with sugar and - even worse - corn starch
[2021-06-24T02:29:11Z] <midfavila> like, i've had MREs before, and they're *amazing*
[2021-06-24T02:29:18Z] <riteo> it's also true that I don't buy processed foods and more the "vegan" purist kind of stuff (no tofu or pseudo-meats though)
[2021-06-24T02:29:18Z] <midfavila> and you can't get more processed than an MRE
[2021-06-24T02:29:28Z] <necromansy> tofu is great tho
[2021-06-24T02:29:42Z] <necromansy> i do eat a bit of mock meat tho
[2021-06-24T02:29:50Z] <midfavila> i couldn't give up meats
[2021-06-24T02:29:52Z] <riteo> I should try that someday, but it's complicated for a few reasons
[2021-06-24T02:29:57Z] <midfavila> it's like 90% of my diet
[2021-06-24T02:30:02Z] <necromansy> i really honestly dont miss meat
[2021-06-24T02:30:05Z] <midfavila> most plant matter makes me sick :|
[2021-06-24T02:30:06Z] <necromansy> and i used to eat a ton of it
[2021-06-24T02:30:31Z] <riteo> eh, I too can live without meat and actually tend to avoid it/wash it down with vegetables
[2021-06-24T02:31:07Z] <riteo> although provola and salsiccia are a very big tentation that just can't be resisted sometimes
[2021-06-24T02:31:09Z] <midfavila> vegetables, the mortal enemy and eternal rival of gokubles
[2021-06-24T02:31:12Z] <necromansy> theres this really good wheat-gluten mock chicken that my partner and i get
[2021-06-24T02:31:16Z] <necromansy> it fries REALLY good
[2021-06-24T02:31:30Z] <riteo> I actually don't get mock meat
[2021-06-24T02:31:45Z] <riteo> if you want umami there are other ways of getting it
[2021-06-24T02:31:49Z] <midfavila> i don't get the appeal of mock meat
[2021-06-24T02:31:50Z] <midfavila> just like
[2021-06-24T02:31:54Z] <midfavila> have some fuckn
[2021-06-24T02:31:55Z] <midfavila> mushrooms
[2021-06-24T02:31:55Z] <necromansy> a) normalises vegan diet, b) easy to sub out for in regular meals
[2021-06-24T02:31:57Z] <midfavila> savages
[2021-06-24T02:32:12Z] <midfavila> >normalizes vegan diet
[2021-06-24T02:32:12Z] <necromansy> also mushrooms are good
[2021-06-24T02:32:15Z] <midfavila> why is this important
[2021-06-24T02:32:15Z] <riteo> necromansy: how's it different from tofu nutrition wise?
[2021-06-24T02:32:16Z] <midfavila> unironically
[2021-06-24T02:32:27Z] <riteo> mushrooms are actually closer to meat than plants in some aspects
[2021-06-24T02:32:30Z] <riteo> like the browning part
[2021-06-24T02:32:45Z] <necromansy> uuuuuuh if you're ethically vegan its a good barrier to overcome with people who are all "eugh vegans r dumb"
[2021-06-24T02:33:08Z] <riteo> how
[2021-06-24T02:33:10Z] <midfavila> if they're incapable of having a reasonable conversation with you about your morals then it's not worth bothering with them
[2021-06-24T02:33:20Z] <midfavila> fake hamburgers won't make it any better
[2021-06-24T02:33:25Z] <midfavila> especially since they taste and feel like shit
[2021-06-24T02:33:32Z] <riteo> that's a good point too
[2021-06-24T02:33:37Z] <riteo> although I can't comment on the taste and feel part
[2021-06-24T02:33:44Z] <midfavila> honestly, the "ethically vegan" thing kind of bothers me too
[2021-06-24T02:33:57Z] <riteo> eh, it depends IMO
[2021-06-24T02:33:57Z] <midfavila> it implies that you can't consume meat in an ethical manner, which is totally bullshit. 
[2021-06-24T02:34:06Z] <midfavila> now,
[2021-06-24T02:34:06Z] <necromansy> fucken ctrl-c
[2021-06-24T02:34:10Z] <midfavila> that being said,
[2021-06-24T02:34:25Z] <midfavila> the meat industry as it is, is wholly unethical
[2021-06-24T02:34:42Z] <riteo> oh yeah mass production of meat is messed up
[2021-06-24T02:34:51Z] <midfavila> i'd rather go hunting or something.
[2021-06-24T02:34:59Z] <midfavila> better for everyone that way.
[2021-06-24T02:35:02Z] <necromansy> oh yeah for sure, the problem is you can't really de-industrialise the meat market and still feed humanity
[2021-06-24T02:35:12Z] <midfavila> necromansy you say this like it's a bad thing
[2021-06-24T02:35:15Z] <riteo> with our current economical model
[2021-06-24T02:35:16Z] <necromansy> i do yes
[2021-06-24T02:35:17Z] <midfavila> giant meteor can still win 2024
[2021-06-24T02:35:22Z] <midfavila> let's fuckn gooooooooooooooooooooo
[2021-06-24T02:35:53Z] <riteo> now this can get very political, but ethical meat consumption for the whole umanity is more than possible, although there are various obstacles
[2021-06-24T02:36:03Z] <riteo> 1) Excessive meat consumption, like, calm down
[2021-06-24T02:36:26Z] <necromansy> im 100% on board for pushing for ethical meat consumption
[2021-06-24T02:36:45Z] <necromansy> its first step in pipeline for more veganism anyway
[2021-06-24T02:36:57Z] <riteo> let's keep it to one point for now, I don't want to get too political 
[2021-06-24T02:37:04Z] <necromansy> nono i geddit
[2021-06-24T02:37:09Z] <necromansy> topic can get heated
[2021-06-24T02:37:13Z] <midfavila> i just don't get the whole "pushing" veganism thing
[2021-06-24T02:37:18Z] <necromansy> >ethics
[2021-06-24T02:37:30Z] <midfavila> >implying veganism is purely ethical and there are no alternatives
[2021-06-24T02:37:37Z] <necromansy> yes
[2021-06-24T02:37:38Z] <midfavila> have you *seen* the impact of like
[2021-06-24T02:37:41Z] <midfavila> almonds?
[2021-06-24T02:37:48Z] <necromansy> yes i drink oat milk
[2021-06-24T02:37:50Z] <midfavila> the amount of water it takes to grow almonds is absolutely *insane*
[2021-06-24T02:37:50Z] <necromansy> almonds suck
[2021-06-24T02:38:07Z] <midfavila> but there are so many idiots who act all smug because they drink almond milk instead of cow's or goat's milk
[2021-06-24T02:38:09Z] <midfavila> and it's like
[2021-06-24T02:38:11Z] <midfavila> fuck off
[2021-06-24T02:38:35Z] <riteo> I was and always be on the idea that meat can't be and shouldn't be abolished
[2021-06-24T02:38:39Z] <riteo> at least*
[2021-06-24T02:38:42Z] <riteo> god
[2021-06-24T02:38:43Z] <necromansy> yeah look mid people are fucking stupid and im not gonna deny that theres plenty of vegans and plant-based diet nuts who dont get the irony of their smugnessx
[2021-06-24T02:38:48Z] <riteo> *at least* reduced drastically
[2021-06-24T02:39:05Z] <midfavila> i'm not trying to argue with you necromansy lmao
[2021-06-24T02:39:11Z] <necromansy> oh yeah i know sorry
[2021-06-24T02:39:28Z] <midfavila> besides, if I could get away with a plant-based diet, I would
[2021-06-24T02:39:35Z] <midfavila> so much cheaper than animal produce.
[2021-06-24T02:40:00Z] <riteo> plants are unironically underrated
[2021-06-24T02:40:02Z] <midfavila> it's like 20$ for a third of a kilo of fish
[2021-06-24T02:40:03Z] <necromansy> ^
[2021-06-24T02:40:53Z] <riteo> fish is, IMO, another thing basically
[2021-06-24T02:41:02Z] <midfavila> eh. i don't see how.
[2021-06-24T02:41:06Z] <riteo> not nutritionally wise
[2021-06-24T02:41:12Z] <riteo> not completely
[2021-06-24T02:41:20Z] <midfavila> fish are as much animals are cows or w/e.
[2021-06-24T02:41:33Z] <midfavila> and over-fishing has a massive impact on the environment, besides.
[2021-06-24T02:41:34Z] <riteo> like, it's healtier compared to meat depending on which you buy
[2021-06-24T02:41:47Z] <midfavila> if you can get the good stuff, yeah
[2021-06-24T02:41:48Z] <riteo> and yeah, it has different enviromental issues
[2021-06-24T02:41:49Z] <midfavila> fish is fantastic for you
[2021-06-24T02:41:58Z] <midfavila> but most fish has fucking mercury and stuff in it
[2021-06-24T02:41:59Z] <midfavila> like,
[2021-06-24T02:42:06Z] <midfavila> the one meat that has basically zero downsides,
[2021-06-24T02:42:15Z] <midfavila> and humanity ruined it through industrial waste dumping
[2021-06-24T02:42:18Z] <riteo> chicken?
[2021-06-24T02:42:18Z] <midfavila> good job, team
[2021-06-24T02:42:23Z] <riteo> oh I'm stupid
[2021-06-24T02:42:29Z] <riteo> I thought you were gonna say something else than fish
[2021-06-24T02:42:34Z] <riteo> yeah I agree
[2021-06-24T02:42:40Z] <midfavila> chicken is okay, but I think fish is healthier on average.
[2021-06-24T02:42:46Z] <riteo> yeah I agree
[2021-06-24T02:42:53Z] <midfavila> of the red meats, I tend to stick with pork
[2021-06-24T02:43:15Z] <midfavila> beef has a fair bit more iron, but calorie for calorie pork seems to win in terms of nutrition
[2021-06-24T02:43:15Z] <riteo> also dark meat is good
[2021-06-24T02:43:42Z] <riteo> it's called dark meat, right? The juicier parts of chickens, like not the breast
[2021-06-24T02:43:48Z] <midfavila> yeah, I think so
[2021-06-24T02:43:54Z] <midfavila> the breast and stuff is white meat.
[2021-06-24T02:43:59Z] <midfavila> i don't eat a lot of poultry so I wouldn't know.
[2021-06-24T02:44:39Z] <midfavila> my diet is mostly eggs and pork at this point. and like, some milk, yogourt and granola.
[2021-06-24T02:44:53Z] <riteo> oh yeah milk
[2021-06-24T02:45:04Z] <midfavila> HE NEED SOME M I L K 
[2021-06-24T02:45:04Z] <riteo> for some reason now it's savoury for me
[2021-06-24T02:45:08Z] <midfavila> fats
[2021-06-24T02:45:20Z] <riteo> I like, tasted it with salami once and now it's savoury
[2021-06-24T02:45:23Z] <midfavila> milk is very savory if you get high-fat stuff
[2021-06-24T02:45:35Z] <midfavila> i like it in my tea. 
[2021-06-24T02:45:44Z] <riteo> oh, that's maybe why
[2021-06-24T02:45:57Z] <riteo> I usually drinked skimmed milk, but that time it was full-fat
[2021-06-24T02:46:07Z] <midfavila> Yeah, 3% or whatever.
[2021-06-24T02:46:11Z] <midfavila> Mm.
[2021-06-24T02:46:20Z] <midfavila> I can't stand skim milk. 
[2021-06-24T02:46:23Z] <riteo> also wtf is wrong with american prepackaged salads
[2021-06-24T02:46:30Z] <midfavila> idek
[2021-06-24T02:46:40Z] <midfavila> what I've seen of american food is unbelievable
[2021-06-24T02:46:44Z] <riteo> I heard they're full of ranch and whatnot
[2021-06-24T02:46:48Z] <necromansy> ugh
[2021-06-24T02:46:56Z] <midfavila> like, canada has its own problems with food, but
[2021-06-24T02:47:13Z] <midfavila> it's astonishing how one country can simultaneously have an obesity crisis and struggle to feed its own population
[2021-06-24T02:47:18Z] <midfavila> maximum freedom
[2021-06-24T02:47:25Z] <riteo> this is what freedom looks like
[2021-06-24T02:47:29Z] <midfavila> tastes like*
[2021-06-24T02:47:36Z] <necromansy> well duh having an equal food distribution is socialism
[2021-06-24T02:47:43Z] <necromansy> and better dead then red amirite
[2021-06-24T02:47:47Z] * necromansy shakes head
[2021-06-24T02:47:52Z] <riteo> shm my head indeed
[2021-06-24T02:48:14Z] <midfavila> i don't even care about muh socialism, muh capitalism, muh communism any more
[2021-06-24T02:48:21Z] <midfavila> because nobody can agree on what any of it fucking means
[2021-06-24T02:48:27Z] <riteo> anarchism when
[2021-06-24T02:48:29Z] <necromansy> thats part of the problem yeah
[2021-06-24T02:48:31Z] <midfavila> like
[2021-06-24T02:48:37Z] <midfavila> is socialism communism??? 
[2021-06-24T02:48:39Z] <midfavila> not in canada
[2021-06-24T02:48:47Z] <riteo> time to make a KISS political ideology
[2021-06-24T02:48:57Z] <riteo> written in POSIX shell
[2021-06-24T02:49:11Z] <necromansy> i *do* caonsider myself around those sorts of leftist tags, but idc what you call it i just want poor people not to be poor and for people to have basic necessities
[2021-06-24T02:49:12Z] <necromansy> etc
[2021-06-24T02:49:19Z] <midfavila> imho,
[2021-06-24T02:49:37Z] <midfavila> food, *basic* shelter, and education should be provided through taxes
[2021-06-24T02:49:39Z] <riteo> remember, socialism is when the state does stuff
[2021-06-24T02:49:47Z] <riteo> and when it doess *all* the stuff it's communism
[2021-06-24T02:49:47Z] <necromansy> 100% agree mid
[2021-06-24T02:49:50Z] <midfavila> a healthy, well-educated population benefits everyone
[2021-06-24T02:49:52Z] <midfavila> but *also*
[2021-06-24T02:50:02Z] <midfavila> it's important to reward exceptional societal contribution
[2021-06-24T02:50:02Z] <riteo> I agree too btw
[2021-06-24T02:50:11Z] <midfavila> without going too far
[2021-06-24T02:50:12Z] <midfavila> like,
[2021-06-24T02:50:24Z] <midfavila> there's a local neighbourhood that's currently being gentrified
[2021-06-24T02:50:33Z] <midfavila> and there are all these multi-million dollar mcmansions being built
[2021-06-24T02:50:36Z] <midfavila> it's so gross
[2021-06-24T02:50:38Z] <necromansy> yeah the problem is you cant do that with anything that implies some sort of power structure because then abuse occurs
[2021-06-24T02:51:05Z] <midfavila> necromansy humans will always have some sort of power structure or hierarchy 
[2021-06-24T02:51:17Z] <riteo> midfavila: RE: reward contributions eh, IMO those things could as well be part of the societal mechanism, like people being grateful for that person and like sending them stuff or making favors to them
[2021-06-24T02:51:20Z] <midfavila> a collective can't function without *some sort* of organizational hierarchy
[2021-06-24T02:51:30Z] <riteo> well, you can minimize it though
[2021-06-24T02:51:30Z] <necromansy> naturally, hence why we shouldnt tip the scales more
[2021-06-24T02:51:47Z] <midfavila> idk man I'm not a political scientist or economist
[2021-06-24T02:51:56Z] <riteo> oh me neither lol
[2021-06-24T02:51:57Z] <midfavila> i just want to be able to afford a house and not have to work until I drop dead or my body breaks
[2021-06-24T02:52:05Z] <necromansy> thats a mood
[2021-06-24T02:52:14Z] <riteo> I'm regurgitating some random thoughts on #kisslinux, I'm not talking as a genius who read theory
[2021-06-24T02:52:21Z] <midfavila> i was reading about geothermal power and heating earlier today
[2021-06-24T02:52:24Z] <midfavila> exciting stuff
[2021-06-24T02:52:32Z] <necromansy> alternative power methods are dope
[2021-06-24T02:52:40Z] <midfavila> apparently you can harvest CO2 from the atmosphere for use as refrigerant in geothermal heat systems
[2021-06-24T02:52:41Z] <riteo> alternative, more independent stuff is dope
[2021-06-24T02:52:51Z] <necromansy> im still itching for a grid powered by effecient solar power and superconductors
[2021-06-24T02:52:54Z] <midfavila> and I mean, alternative power *can* be "dope", as the kids say
[2021-06-24T02:52:58Z] <midfavila> solar and wind, for example, are memes
[2021-06-24T02:53:01Z] <riteo> alternative networking solutions (mesh networks) are dope too
[2021-06-24T02:53:03Z] <midfavila> at least as far as primary power sources go
[2021-06-24T02:53:13Z] <necromansy> solar is only a meme rn coz of efficiency concerns
[2021-06-24T02:53:14Z] <midfavila> solar is great as supplementary power
[2021-06-24T02:53:18Z] <riteo> the biggest issue with america IMO is how easily can corporations control the state
[2021-06-24T02:53:23Z] <midfavila> but it's expensive and the panels eventually degrade afaik
[2021-06-24T02:53:26Z] <necromansy> yeah
[2021-06-24T02:53:28Z] <midfavila> and then it's a massive pain to recycle them
[2021-06-24T02:53:33Z] <midfavila> and it just kind of sucks
[2021-06-24T02:53:44Z] <necromansy> one of the research groups at my uni is doing stuff on making solar panel paint
[2021-06-24T02:53:50Z] <necromansy> which increases viability
[2021-06-24T02:53:50Z] <midfavila> i think hydro and geothermal are the best renewable resources for most people
[2021-06-24T02:53:58Z] <riteo> there could be more research, but there's probably not that much funding as there should be
[2021-06-24T02:54:04Z] <midfavila> but for most stuff, nuclear should be used instead
[2021-06-24T02:54:08Z] <necromansy> coz of coal lobbies
[2021-06-24T02:54:12Z] <riteo> exactly
[2021-06-24T02:54:18Z] <midfavila> of course, there are the "not in my backyard" types, who can't understand that reactors don't actually explode
[2021-06-24T02:54:25Z] <riteo> midfavila: nuclear is really really dangerous
[2021-06-24T02:54:41Z] * midfavila waits for an explanation as to why
[2021-06-24T02:54:42Z] <riteo> we can't risk messing up our planet that much anymore
[2021-06-24T02:54:56Z] <riteo> there have been accident and there will be, that's unavoidable
[2021-06-24T02:55:01Z] <riteo> s/accident/accidents/
[2021-06-24T02:55:05Z] <midfavila> and burning millions or billions of tons of fossil fuels is better than a nuclear reactor?
[2021-06-24T02:55:18Z] <midfavila> there have been, as far as I'm aware, two major accidents in history
[2021-06-24T02:55:20Z] <riteo> no, working on other technologies instead of investing in nuclear is better
[2021-06-24T02:55:24Z] <midfavila> one was because the USSR was fucking retarded
[2021-06-24T02:55:37Z] <midfavila> the other was because the japanese decided to put a reactor in a high tectonic activity zone
[2021-06-24T02:55:44Z] <midfavila> ...which, to be fair, it would be hard for them to *not*
[2021-06-24T02:55:47Z] <necromansy> ^
[2021-06-24T02:55:59Z] <midfavila> but regardless, chernobyl was the only *really fucking awful* meltdown
[2021-06-24T02:56:03Z] <necromansy> tbh hitching your bets on one kind of source is dumb
[2021-06-24T02:56:04Z] <midfavila> and that was just... the perfect storm
[2021-06-24T02:56:09Z] <midfavila> oh, obviously
[2021-06-24T02:56:27Z] <midfavila> that's why I said we should use solar as supplementary, and then most people should use hydro or geo as their primary
[2021-06-24T02:56:29Z] <midfavila> but let's be real
[2021-06-24T02:56:33Z] <midfavila> new york can't run on solar
[2021-06-24T02:56:35Z] <riteo> still, we still gotta manage nuclear waste and we could invest a lot of its money into cleaner energy sources
[2021-06-24T02:56:43Z] <midfavila> and you can't exactly rework all of our cities to work with geo 
[2021-06-24T02:56:49Z] <riteo> like, geo is basically free heat
[2021-06-24T02:56:50Z] <noocsharp> nuclear waste is not that hard to manage
[2021-06-24T02:56:50Z] <midfavila> and there aren't massive dams all over the place
[2021-06-24T02:57:00Z] <midfavila> nuclear waste is trivial to manage even with current reactors
[2021-06-24T02:57:07Z] <midfavila> just stick it in the ground in a bunch of drums
[2021-06-24T02:57:08Z] <midfavila> bam
[2021-06-24T02:57:21Z] <midfavila> but a better reactor type, like a thorium reactor, would be a superior solution
[2021-06-24T02:57:22Z] <riteo> what instead if
[2021-06-24T02:57:25Z] <riteo> we dug the ground
[2021-06-24T02:57:34Z] <riteo> and dug a little bit more
[2021-06-24T02:57:36Z] <necromansy> fusion reactors when
[2021-06-24T02:57:41Z] <riteo> and used the earth natural constant heat?
[2021-06-24T02:57:51Z] <midfavila> okay, but consider this
[2021-06-24T02:57:53Z] <midfavila> that's a)
[2021-06-24T02:57:54Z] <midfavila> expensive
[2021-06-24T02:58:01Z] <midfavila> b) highly dependent on location 
[2021-06-24T02:58:03Z] <riteo> >nuclear isn't expensive
[2021-06-24T02:58:07Z] <midfavila> c) exceptionally disruptive
[2021-06-24T02:58:15Z] <midfavila> per unit of power generated nuclear is among the cheapest options, riteo
[2021-06-24T02:58:19Z] <midfavila> it's also among the safest
[2021-06-24T02:58:26Z] <midfavila> especially with modern technology
[2021-06-24T02:58:38Z] <midfavila> and with thorium or fusion reactors, the risk of a meltdown would completely vanish
[2021-06-24T02:58:56Z] <midfavila> geothermal requires you dig up an entire city 
[2021-06-24T02:58:59Z] <riteo> I don't know, I just can't accept that we're working on nuclear instead of seeking less risky stuff
[2021-06-24T02:59:07Z] <necromansy> we can do both
[2021-06-24T02:59:09Z] <midfavila> nuclear is only risky if you're stupid 
[2021-06-24T02:59:27Z] <riteo> it's not like it can only go one way or the other mid
[2021-06-24T02:59:33Z] <midfavila> uh, actually, it can
[2021-06-24T02:59:33Z] <midfavila> lmao
[2021-06-24T02:59:37Z] <midfavila> especially with thorium reactors
[2021-06-24T02:59:38Z] <necromansy> nuclear can be phased out when the other methods become more effective too
[2021-06-24T02:59:42Z] <midfavila> it can *only* go one way with thorium
[2021-06-24T02:59:43Z] <riteo> not if the waste is badly managed
[2021-06-24T02:59:54Z] <midfavila> again, "it's only bad if you're stupid"
[2021-06-24T02:59:56Z] <midfavila> but look
[2021-06-24T03:00:07Z] <necromansy> eh mid bad take considering humanity :P
[2021-06-24T03:00:10Z] <midfavila> thorium reactors? their fuel is stable and can be instantly halted in the case of danger
[2021-06-24T03:00:22Z] <midfavila> not to mention that their waste product... is just slightly less potent thorium
[2021-06-24T03:00:29Z] <midfavila> this can be mixed with new batches, refined, and reused
[2021-06-24T03:00:36Z] <midfavila> and thorium is literally fucking everywhere
[2021-06-24T03:00:49Z] <midfavila> and it's much safer to handle than uranium or plutonium
[2021-06-24T03:00:56Z] <noocsharp> unfortunately they don't exist yet
[2021-06-24T03:01:00Z] <midfavila> uh, yes they do
[2021-06-24T03:01:06Z] <midfavila> the schematics for thorium reactors have existed for decades
[2021-06-24T03:01:20Z] <riteo> are they being used though
[2021-06-24T03:01:22Z] <midfavila> it was the fucking americans who screwed it up because it was easier to build uranium reactors
[2021-06-24T03:01:28Z] <midfavila> smh
[2021-06-24T03:01:32Z] <noocsharp> they are not being used
[2021-06-24T03:01:40Z] <midfavila> they're not being used because nobody is investing in nuclear!
[2021-06-24T03:01:48Z] <midfavila> instead we're chasing meme power sources like solar
[2021-06-24T03:02:24Z] <midfavila> as cool as solar is, it's just not feasible on any massive scale.
[2021-06-24T03:02:33Z] <midfavila> nor is wind, for that matter.
[2021-06-24T03:02:38Z] <riteo> I mean, if solar's a "meme" right now it's because its development is extremely slow
[2021-06-24T03:02:42Z] <rio6> gotta build that dysons sphere
[2021-06-24T03:02:48Z] <midfavila> no, riteo, it's a meme because it's expensive and fragile
[2021-06-24T03:03:00Z] <riteo> it wouldn't be if people researched on it more mid
[2021-06-24T03:03:05Z] <midfavila> yes, it would be.
[2021-06-24T03:03:11Z] <midfavila> shockingly, glass isn't a very strong material.
[2021-06-24T03:03:16Z] <noocsharp> umm, wind makes up like 20% of texas' energy output
[2021-06-24T03:03:30Z] <midfavila> isn't texas also literally a plain?
[2021-06-24T03:03:42Z] <rio6> mydro and wind are pretty good rn
[2021-06-24T03:03:43Z] <riteo> mid, go back a long time ago: "computers are a meme because they occupy a whole room and are expensive, we shouldn't invest in them!"
[2021-06-24T03:03:46Z] <rio6> *hydro
[2021-06-24T03:03:53Z] <midfavila> i'm not saying we shouldn't invest in solar, riteo
[2021-06-24T03:04:06Z] <noocsharp> texas is also a swamp and a desert and a forest
[2021-06-24T03:04:14Z] <midfavila> i'm saying that solar for the foreseeable future is not a feasible solution to the current problems facing humanity
[2021-06-24T03:04:20Z] <midfavila> we needed a solution thirty years ago
[2021-06-24T03:04:26Z] <midfavila> nuclear *was* and *is* that solution
[2021-06-24T03:04:50Z] <noocsharp> alternatively use less energy
[2021-06-24T03:04:56Z] <midfavila> that would be fantastic
[2021-06-24T03:04:56Z] <rio6> too bad too many went boom boom and now ppl are scared
[2021-06-24T03:05:07Z] <midfavila> i wholeheartedly agree about using less energy
[2021-06-24T03:05:14Z] <riteo> oh you're talking about climate change?
[2021-06-24T03:05:27Z] <riteo> do you know that like factories make up basically the vast majority of it, right?
[2021-06-24T03:05:28Z] <rio6> delete crypto currency
[2021-06-24T03:05:28Z] <midfavila> i'm talking about climate change, i'm talking about economics, i'm talking about reliability
[2021-06-24T03:05:40Z] <midfavila> and yes, I know that factories are shit, riteo
[2021-06-24T03:05:46Z] <midfavila> that's why I support a corporate carbon tax
[2021-06-24T03:05:51Z] <noocsharp> buy less things
[2021-06-24T03:05:54Z] <riteo> >tax
[2021-06-24T03:05:58Z] <riteo> mid you're talking to an italian
[2021-06-24T03:06:03Z] <riteo> I know how this stuff works
[2021-06-24T03:06:04Z] <midfavila> honestly
[2021-06-24T03:06:10Z] <midfavila> the main thing people need to realize
[2021-06-24T03:06:14Z] <riteo> also, corpos control the american government, remember?
[2021-06-24T03:06:15Z] <midfavila> is that there's more than one R
[2021-06-24T03:06:38Z] <midfavila> instead of focusing on recycling, which doesn't work for most plastics, we should reduce (like noocsharp said), and most importantly reuse
[2021-06-24T03:06:45Z] <riteo> absolutely
[2021-06-24T03:06:51Z] <midfavila> but you look at modern tech, which is probably the biggest contributor to this shit, and it's like...
[2021-06-24T03:06:54Z] <noocsharp> fix your toaster ovens
[2021-06-24T03:06:54Z] <midfavila> fuck, due
[2021-06-24T03:06:56Z] <midfavila> dude*
[2021-06-24T03:06:56Z] <riteo> it's down to corpos anyways
[2021-06-24T03:07:18Z] <riteo> "but if people fix my products they won't buy a new one!!!"
[2021-06-24T03:07:33Z] <riteo> "but if people don't buy all my products I won't get super rich!!!"
[2021-06-24T03:07:37Z] <midfavila> if products were made in a modular fashion and parts made available, they'd probably make more money...
[2021-06-24T03:07:40Z] <noocsharp> i'll drop this in case y'all haven't seen it: https://simplifier.neocities.org
[2021-06-24T03:08:02Z] <riteo> oh cool!
[2021-06-24T03:08:32Z] <riteo> I'll absolutely save this, my scavenger feels interested
[2021-06-24T03:08:59Z] <riteo> oh wait
[2021-06-24T03:09:06Z] <riteo> I already saw that 4x4 ascii font
[2021-06-24T03:09:18Z] <riteo> Did I already "meet" that person?
[2021-06-24T03:09:37Z] <riteo> the world's so small
[2021-06-24T03:09:58Z] <noocsharp> i think that site is pretty well known in these circles
[2021-06-24T03:10:14Z] <riteo> I saw that on some gamedev discord server IIRC though
[2021-06-24T03:10:17Z] <riteo> like, on godot's one?
[2021-06-24T03:10:18Z] <midfavila> that's neat, but I'm more into N O D E and similar stuff
[2021-06-24T03:10:25Z] <riteo> oh god don't talk me about node
[2021-06-24T03:10:28Z] <riteo> I miss them so much
[2021-06-24T03:10:53Z] <midfavila> https://n-o-d-e.net/index.html
[2021-06-24T03:10:55Z] <midfavila> they're still active?
[2021-06-24T03:11:00Z] <riteo> sadly not
[2021-06-24T03:11:45Z] <midfavila> the guy's last video wasn't even a year ago.
[2021-06-24T03:11:57Z] <riteo> so?
[2021-06-24T03:12:03Z] <midfavila> short of him putting out an announcement, i'd not jump to conclusions.
[2021-06-24T03:12:31Z] <riteo> people contacted them in their youtube video's comments and nobody "official" replied
[2021-06-24T03:12:41Z] <midfavila> probably just busy.
[2021-06-24T03:12:42Z] <riteo> the shop's been all out in months
[2021-06-24T03:13:53Z] <midfavila> ngl,
[2021-06-24T03:14:01Z] <midfavila> if we're gonna talk about tech and climate change and stuff,
[2021-06-24T03:14:07Z] <midfavila> i think the web is easily the biggest culprit
[2021-06-24T03:14:19Z] <riteo> mhhh
[2021-06-24T03:14:30Z] <riteo> the web like, the people behind it?
[2021-06-24T03:14:33Z] <midfavila> between youtube and netflix...
[2021-06-24T03:14:40Z] <riteo> those are still corpos mid
[2021-06-24T03:14:44Z] <riteo> you forgot cinemas existed before
[2021-06-24T03:15:08Z] <noocsharp> i'd imagine the whole pipeline of computer manufacturing is probably a bigger culprit
[2021-06-24T03:15:16Z] <midfavila> oh, sure
[2021-06-24T03:15:20Z] <midfavila> like I said
[2021-06-24T03:15:22Z] <midfavila> look at modern tech
[2021-06-24T03:15:25Z] <midfavila> it's designed to break
[2021-06-24T03:15:28Z] <midfavila> and be impossible to fix
[2021-06-24T03:15:33Z] <riteo> as I always say (regarding the tech world, but that can be easily expanded in general), if we got to this point is because people are pretty ignorant of the stuff behind what they do and always chase easy to manipulate numbers
[2021-06-24T03:15:35Z] <midfavila> and just generally be shitty awful garbage
[2021-06-24T03:15:50Z] <noocsharp> if by the web you mean its transitive dependencies, i agree
[2021-06-24T03:16:01Z] <riteo> "yeah, but look at how slim it is!!!"
[2021-06-24T03:16:07Z] <midfavila> when I say "the web", I specifically mean what it's become and the infrastructure to support it
[2021-06-24T03:16:15Z] <riteo> oh absolutely
[2021-06-24T03:16:20Z] <midfavila> if the web was still what it was in the 2000s, it would be a different story
[2021-06-24T03:16:21Z] <riteo> now I can finally talk about my shitty stuff again
[2021-06-24T03:16:23Z] <riteo> get ready mid
[2021-06-24T03:16:34Z] <midfavila> but now there's *V R* in the web standards
[2021-06-24T03:16:34Z] <midfavila> like
[2021-06-24T03:16:35Z] <midfavila> what the fuck
[2021-06-24T03:16:39Z] <riteo> lmao I know
[2021-06-24T03:16:41Z] <midfavila> this isn't serial experiments lain
[2021-06-24T03:16:47Z] <midfavila> i'm not going to project myself into the wired
[2021-06-24T03:16:50Z] <midfavila> fuck off pozilla
[2021-06-24T03:16:57Z] <riteo> I was working on minekiss as usual, until I realized that minecraft will soon switch to microsoft accounts only
[2021-06-24T03:17:07Z] <riteo> and do you want to know the best thing
[2021-06-24T03:17:16Z] <midfavila> you're not going to delete your minecraft account
[2021-06-24T03:17:19Z] <riteo> it *requires* a web browser to work
[2021-06-24T03:17:29Z] <riteo> https://wiki.vg/Microsoft_Authentication_Scheme
[2021-06-24T03:17:31Z] <midfavila> based microsoft BTFOs the linux manlets yet again
[2021-06-24T03:17:40Z] <midfavila> fucking DEMOLISHED
[2021-06-24T03:17:45Z] <noocsharp> i've always wondered if it would be possible to buy old shitty computers on craigslist, hook them up to good internet and sell their compute
[2021-06-24T03:18:02Z] <noocsharp> rather feasible enough to break even
[2021-06-24T03:18:07Z] <midfavila> noocsharp that's called "cloud computing" and it's been in use quite successfully since the 1960s
[2021-06-24T03:18:19Z] <midfavila> honestly, I tell you what - plan 9 would be a perfect fit for the modern computer ecosystem
[2021-06-24T03:18:22Z] <midfavila> not even meming rn
[2021-06-24T03:18:25Z] <noocsharp> no, but just old consumer hardware
[2021-06-24T03:18:30Z] <riteo> in one way or the other, I'm gonna bypass that restriction and if I fail (or get banned), then and only then I'll sink with the ship
[2021-06-24T03:18:51Z] <midfavila> combine plan 9 with the Dis VM and Limbo, and you've got a network-based ecosystem that can run on any architecture
[2021-06-24T03:19:09Z] <midfavila> it's inherently graphical, so all the normies can have their UIs
[2021-06-24T03:19:17Z] <riteo> that always confused me
[2021-06-24T03:19:17Z] <midfavila> it's got proper UNIX-like tools for command line processing
[2021-06-24T03:19:19Z] <midfavila> it's efficient
[2021-06-24T03:19:24Z] <midfavila> it's easy to program for
[2021-06-24T03:19:27Z] <riteo> why going UI by default?
[2021-06-24T03:19:45Z] <riteo> like, they don't have TTYs?
[2021-06-24T03:19:49Z] <midfavila> because the people who worked on Research Unix believed that having a mouse was a Good Thing:tm:
[2021-06-24T03:20:01Z] <midfavila> and no, they don't have ttys in the unix sense
[2021-06-24T03:20:12Z] <midfavila> plan 9 doesn't differentiate between the GUI and the "text mode"
[2021-06-24T03:20:18Z] <midfavila> it's the same thing, fundamentally.
[2021-06-24T03:20:55Z] <midfavila> alternatively,
[2021-06-24T03:21:00Z] <midfavila> we could all switch to lisp machines again
[2021-06-24T03:21:03Z] <midfavila> that would be based
[2021-06-24T03:21:10Z] <riteo> time to make the ultimate OS
[2021-06-24T03:21:21Z] <midfavila> autismos is already being planned
[2021-06-24T03:21:34Z] <riteo> > autismos
[2021-06-24T03:21:38Z] <midfavila> the best traits of plan 9, unix, the amiga os, and QNX will be fused
[2021-06-24T03:21:44Z] <riteo> i'm dying
[2021-06-24T03:21:52Z] <midfavila> into an unholy realtime microkernel-based OS
[2021-06-24T03:21:58Z] <riteo> yes
[2021-06-24T03:22:06Z] <midfavila> with a distributed, multithreaded everything
[2021-06-24T03:22:14Z] <riteo> also don't forget to use L4 for maximum performance
[2021-06-24T03:22:16Z] <midfavila> except the twist is that it's all going to be written in lisp
[2021-06-24T03:22:21Z] <riteo> and don't forget to formally verify it
[2021-06-24T03:22:32Z] <midfavila> if I'm going to write an OS I'm going to write my own kernel
[2021-06-24T03:22:34Z] <riteo> oh, thinking about it, are there lisp toy OSes?
[2021-06-24T03:22:37Z] <midfavila> yes
[2021-06-24T03:22:39Z] <midfavila> mezzano
[2021-06-24T03:22:42Z] <noocsharp> so since you're taking the best traits, presumably it won't be posix?
[2021-06-24T03:22:51Z] <riteo> midfavila: L4 isn't necessarily a developed kernel AFAIK
[2021-06-24T03:22:54Z] <midfavila> if I was writing my own OS I'd include a POSIX compatiblity shim
[2021-06-24T03:22:58Z] <riteo> isn't it like, a series of design concepts?
[2021-06-24T03:23:01Z] <midfavila> l4 is a family of microkernels
[2021-06-24T03:23:17Z] <riteo> midfavila: that shim thing is actually done by adélie linux
[2021-06-24T03:23:24Z] <midfavila> but yeah, my attitude towards posix would be "run it in a chroot"
[2021-06-24T03:23:41Z] <riteo> adélie literally made a shim
[2021-06-24T03:23:45Z] <riteo> like, no chroot or anything
[2021-06-24T03:24:06Z] * midfavila shrugs
[2021-06-24T03:24:06Z] <midfavila> oh
[2021-06-24T03:24:15Z] <midfavila> speaking of incredibly autistic and based software projects
[2021-06-24T03:24:19Z] <riteo> js warning: https://git.adelielinux.org/adelie/shimmy
[2021-06-24T03:24:41Z] <midfavila> https://github.com/phillbush/shod
[2021-06-24T03:24:44Z] <midfavila> check this bad boy out
[2021-06-24T03:24:53Z] <midfavila> it's like, the ultimate window manager
[2021-06-24T03:25:16Z] <midfavila> floating, tiling, retro aesthetics, modern ergonomics, tabbed and shadeable windows...
[2021-06-24T03:25:33Z] <midfavila> and it's under 6k lines of C, to boot
[2021-06-24T03:25:36Z] <riteo> that's interesting
[2021-06-24T03:25:42Z] <midfavila> it has pie menus too
[2021-06-24T03:25:53Z] <riteo> I would use something more simple though
[2021-06-24T03:25:53Z] <midfavila> i lost my shit earlier when I saw it
[2021-06-24T03:26:04Z] <midfavila> because this is almost perfect for me
[2021-06-24T03:26:06Z] <riteo> but yeah, it looks very interesting
[2021-06-24T03:26:10Z] <midfavila> when I understand C more I want to study it
[2021-06-24T03:26:32Z] <midfavila> it even has plan9-esque window creation 
[2021-06-24T03:26:38Z] <riteo> sometimes I feel like I'm at the brink of going full tmux mode
[2021-06-24T03:26:44Z] <riteo> also tmux is cool as heck
[2021-06-24T03:26:50Z] <midfavila> use mtm if you want a terminal multiplexer tbh
[2021-06-24T03:27:00Z] <riteo> I've never heard of it
[2021-06-24T03:27:10Z] <midfavila> multiplexer in under 1k sloc
[2021-06-24T03:27:13Z] <midfavila> very simple
[2021-06-24T03:27:23Z] <midfavila> i have it packaged if you want to try it
[2021-06-24T03:27:44Z] <riteo> I mean, I got my kiss linux usb next to me, so why not
[2021-06-24T03:27:52Z] <midfavila> it's by the guy who wrote tine
[2021-06-24T03:27:54Z] <midfavila> so I have to shill it
[2021-06-24T03:27:57Z] <midfavila> i'm obligated to
[2021-06-24T03:27:58Z] <riteo> oh it's also in the aur
[2021-06-24T03:28:17Z] <riteo> > tine is not ED
[2021-06-24T03:28:23Z] <riteo> ok that's actually very cool
[2021-06-24T03:28:24Z] <midfavila> tine is awesome
[2021-06-24T03:28:32Z] <midfavila> it's a reimplementation of tripos ED
[2021-06-24T03:28:36Z] <riteo> I haven't seen new recursive achronims in a while
[2021-06-24T03:28:39Z] <midfavila> and also amiga ed
[2021-06-24T03:28:54Z] <midfavila> but if I had to describe it in a short sentence, it's like if unix ed had a gui
[2021-06-24T03:29:00Z] <midfavila> i know that vi is the gui for ed
[2021-06-24T03:29:02Z] <midfavila> but like
[2021-06-24T03:29:06Z] <midfavila> vi doesn't *feel* like ed
[2021-06-24T03:29:09Z] <riteo> wait, ANSI terminal?
[2021-06-24T03:29:14Z] <midfavila> yeah
[2021-06-24T03:29:21Z] <midfavila> it's a minimal subset of VT100
[2021-06-24T03:29:32Z] <riteo> I feel like I'm misunderstanding, it is unicode compatible, right?
[2021-06-24T03:29:39Z] <midfavila> probably, dik
[2021-06-24T03:29:40Z] <midfavila> idk*
[2021-06-24T03:29:44Z] <midfavila> i don't use unicode on my system
[2021-06-24T03:29:59Z] <riteo> why not though
[2021-06-24T03:30:04Z] <midfavila> don't need it.
[2021-06-24T03:30:28Z] <midfavila> low ASCII only zone
[2021-06-24T03:30:30Z] <riteo> Do you see mojibake on non american texts?
[2021-06-24T03:30:45Z] <midfavila> in my terminal or Links, yeah
[2021-06-24T03:30:52Z] <midfavila> in gtk programs, no, because I keep unifont available
[2021-06-24T03:31:02Z] <riteo> I see
[2021-06-24T03:31:09Z] <riteo> that's weird to me somehow
[2021-06-24T03:31:12Z] * midfavila shrugs
[2021-06-24T03:31:28Z] <riteo> I mean, unicode's 1:1 compatible with ascii, but oh well
[2021-06-24T03:31:33Z] <midfavila> I only speak english so it's never been a big deal for me, I guess.
[2021-06-24T03:31:44Z] <midfavila> ...well, I know a little french
[2021-06-24T03:31:51Z] <midfavila> but I would never subject anyone here to my french
[2021-06-24T03:31:51Z] <riteo> I see
[2021-06-24T03:32:10Z] <riteo> well, accented characters work on mtm
[2021-06-24T03:32:15Z] <riteo> also stuff like æ
[2021-06-24T03:32:34Z] <consolers> i remove all the po files and nls before building packages (on gentoo) myself
[2021-06-24T03:32:44Z] <riteo> translation's a mess
[2021-06-24T03:33:07Z] <riteo> I really dislike po, although I think that there has to be a simpler more efficient way of translating stuff
[2021-06-24T03:33:26Z] <riteo> I love when software is (properly) translated in my language though
[2021-06-24T03:33:41Z] <riteo> although most times I manually switch locale because it's very very bad
[2021-06-24T03:33:43Z] <consolers> i didnt use unicode for a longwhile but what to do - its the endtimes and the antichrist reigns with satan on the unicode consortium preparing his kingdom
[2021-06-24T03:34:02Z] <riteo> unicode's great actually, if you ignore *that* thing they did
[2021-06-24T03:34:04Z] <consolers> and unicode is a important part of it
[2021-06-24T03:34:27Z] <midfavila> honestly?
[2021-06-24T03:34:39Z] <midfavila> not having to deal with the stupid symbols they keep adding is enough reason to not use unicode, for me
[2021-06-24T03:34:53Z] <midfavila> we have enough fucking emojis already
[2021-06-24T03:34:55Z] <midfavila> jesus christ.
[2021-06-24T03:35:05Z] <riteo> you don't have to
[2021-06-24T03:35:15Z] <riteo> again, if you ignore emojis unicode's great
[2021-06-24T03:35:51Z] <midfavila> any time people are aware that my client supports unicode, or images, or other stupid shit, they never stop sending it to me
[2021-06-24T03:35:54Z] <consolers> ibm or someone paid money to developers to put in unicode support. all the mmap stuff  stops working and all strings havr to go through conversion routines giving central points
[2021-06-24T03:35:55Z] <midfavila> and it's annoying
[2021-06-24T03:35:56Z] <riteo> it's not like you need to download the latest ancient egyptian hieroglyphics font pack, but knowing that you can and that it'll work anywhere it's amazing
[2021-06-24T03:36:23Z] <consolers> unix everything is a file and all files are unsigned byte 8 chars is gone
[2021-06-24T03:36:30Z] <consolers> anyway
[2021-06-24T03:36:36Z] <riteo> what are you talking about
[2021-06-24T03:37:16Z] <consolers> wistful of unencoded/undecoded processing
[2021-06-24T03:37:30Z] <midfavila> solution:
[2021-06-24T03:37:32Z] <midfavila> don't support unicode
[2021-06-24T03:37:47Z] <consolers> apart from perl5 and i think php
[2021-06-24T03:37:58Z] <consolers> and lua i guess
[2021-06-24T03:38:08Z] <riteo> look I'm pretty sure that UTF-8 avoids a lot of issues
[2021-06-24T03:38:48Z] <consolers> no it's not 8 bit clean
[2021-06-24T03:39:02Z] <midfavila> smh
[2021-06-24T03:39:10Z] <midfavila> nobody uses smelly old pdp-11s any more, grandpa
[2021-06-24T03:39:13Z] <midfavila> get with the TIMES
[2021-06-24T03:39:19Z] <riteo> now I get that you don't need it, but saying that it's dumb it's just stupid
[2021-06-24T03:39:46Z] <riteo> ok, yes, translations are a mess, but i'd like to write my ès, ìs and òs without messing up on a different pc thank you
[2021-06-24T03:40:01Z] <midfavila> you're not welcome
[2021-06-24T03:40:06Z] <midfavila> italians btfo
[2021-06-24T03:40:08Z] <riteo> I literally opened a 2018 windows file and all the accented characters became a mess because old windows encoding
[2021-06-24T03:40:22Z] <consolers> unicode killed off a whole lot of linguistic  and computational linguistic research by making it impossible oh well forget it
[2021-06-24T03:40:30Z] <riteo> explain
[2021-06-24T03:41:20Z] <consolers> i'll just say one line as explantion and shut up: it would have been possible if those families of languages had their own charsets and mapped (natural language) features across thoseb
[2021-06-24T03:42:04Z] <riteo> you're talking like if unicode didn't support those features
[2021-06-24T03:42:11Z] <consolers> forget it
[2021-06-24T03:42:22Z] <riteo> bruh it's pretty annoying what you're doing
[2021-06-24T03:42:41Z] <riteo> it's literally #kisslinux, we're talking about different stuff all the time, don't put stuff on the table that you won't talk about
[2021-06-24T03:42:42Z] <consolers> sorry
[2021-06-24T03:42:52Z] <consolers> its kindof late now
[2021-06-24T03:43:08Z] <riteo> no worries
[2021-06-24T03:43:52Z] <riteo> btw mtm seems to support everything I usually do with VT-100
[2021-06-24T03:44:00Z] <midfavila> yeah, it's great
[2021-06-24T03:44:06Z] <midfavila> i combine it with dtach usually
[2021-06-24T03:44:06Z] <consolers> i'm still idling here for some clue on the firefox build failure i spotted on channel logs
[2021-06-24T03:44:18Z] <consolers> but i guess i dont idle enough to see responses
[2021-06-24T03:44:52Z] <riteo> wdym
[2021-06-24T03:44:56Z] <consolers> i used gnu screen exclusively, but i patched it to implement one feature but that had a bug i couldnt figure out. now i use tmux because of wounded pride
[2021-06-24T03:45:22Z] <riteo> midfavila: does it support multiple sessions or at least detachable ones?
[2021-06-24T03:45:28Z] <consolers>  screen  is still faster
[2021-06-24T03:45:51Z] <riteo> screen's a mess
[2021-06-24T03:45:55Z] <riteo> kakoune literally doesn't work on it
[2021-06-24T03:45:56Z] <midfavila> mtm only multiplexes terminals
[2021-06-24T03:45:57Z] <midfavila> that's it
[2021-06-24T03:46:00Z] <riteo> I see
[2021-06-24T03:46:07Z] <midfavila> if you want detachable sessions, use dtach
[2021-06-24T03:46:15Z] <riteo> oh, I see why you used that now
[2021-06-24T03:46:17Z] * rio6 uses vim as multiplexer
[2021-06-24T03:46:19Z] <midfavila> bind mtm to a socket, then connect to the socket
[2021-06-24T03:46:21Z] <rio6> jk I use tmux
[2021-06-24T03:46:21Z] <consolers> why not? i'll try kakuone some time later
[2021-06-24T03:46:31Z] <riteo> kakoune's really interesting
[2021-06-24T03:46:32Z] <noocsharp> i use dtach to run catgirl on my vps
[2021-06-24T03:46:33Z] <consolers> let me repost one sec
[2021-06-24T03:46:44Z] <midfavila> kakoune's a pain if it's anything like what I remember
[2021-06-24T03:46:44Z] <rio6> vim's :Term is useful sometimes
[2021-06-24T03:47:50Z] <consolers> this firefox build failure reported on - line #1159 of gemini.ctrl-c.club/~phoebos/logs/kisslinux-2021-06-02.txt - [2021-06-02T21:25:06Z]
[2021-06-24T03:48:44Z] <consolers> its just curiosity. i'm stuck on emacs for almost 30? years
[2021-06-24T03:49:39Z] <midfavila-laptop> an ancient one
[2021-06-24T03:49:57Z] <midfavila-laptop> i like the way emacs works, but I dislike how it includes a ton of crap that can't be removed
[2021-06-24T03:49:59Z] <midfavila-laptop> it's a real pain.
[2021-06-24T03:51:08Z] <riteo> dtach's very cool
[2021-06-24T03:51:18Z] <riteo> although I kinda miss tmux's multi-sized terminal feature
[2021-06-24T03:51:30Z] <riteo> I loved it
[2021-06-24T03:52:05Z] <midfavila-laptop> the more I tinker with stuff the more I grow to dislike monolithic programs
[2021-06-24T03:52:15Z] <riteo> oh true
[2021-06-24T03:52:35Z] <riteo> although sometimes it's actually hard to separate stuff properly
[2021-06-24T03:52:52Z] <riteo> like I'm kind of struggling with minekiss
[2021-06-24T03:53:08Z] <riteo> although it's a prototype for now so I'm not going crazy
[2021-06-24T03:53:24Z] <riteo> but I'm thinking about it and I'm really wondering how much I can split it up and if I should
[2021-06-24T03:56:53Z] <riteo> anyways while tmux might not be the most minimalist of software it's like 1000 times better than screen AFAIK
[2021-06-24T03:58:31Z] <riteo> midfavila-laptop: for some reason I missed your comment about kakoune 
[2021-06-24T03:59:14Z] <riteo> I feel surprisingly good with it, it's a way saner version of vim with more intuitive keybindings and a powerful multi-cursor based approach
[2021-06-24T03:59:38Z] <riteo> also it tries to avoid duplicate or similar feature, a thing which the creator calls orthogonal design
[2021-06-24T04:00:28Z] <riteo> and although it does some things in weird ways IMO (why have an integrated documentation? There's man for that) it's really really comfy
[2021-06-24T04:00:57Z] <riteo> it has some very minor issues with syntax highlighting though
[2021-06-24T04:02:53Z] <consolers> ok kak installed the latest commit from git with the ebuild without any intervention
[2021-06-24T04:03:13Z] <consolers> let me try it under screen
[2021-06-24T04:04:22Z] <consolers> riteo - what action fails under screen?
[2021-06-24T04:04:49Z] <riteo> iirc it kind of broke down in some ways, let me try it, maybe I'll remember
[2021-06-24T04:05:03Z] <consolers> completion looks spiffy
[2021-06-24T04:05:22Z] <riteo> like, that's broken?
[2021-06-24T04:05:35Z] <consolers> no no
[2021-06-24T04:06:03Z] <riteo> oh you can configure it IIRC
[2021-06-24T04:06:23Z] <consolers> urbandict:  spiffy: [clean], [real] [fresh]
[2021-06-24T04:07:09Z] <riteo> oh sorry, I didn't know it meant that
[2021-06-24T04:07:17Z] <riteo> I thought it was like a negative word
[2021-06-24T04:07:34Z] <midfavila-laptop> spiffy is a good thing
[2021-06-24T04:07:38Z] <midfavila-laptop> it's like saying something is nifty
[2021-06-24T04:07:43Z] <riteo> anyways I can't really find the reason I remembered having issues with kakoune other than the text buffer not cleaning after quitting
[2021-06-24T04:07:51Z] <midfavila-laptop> clear
[2021-06-24T04:07:54Z] <midfavila-laptop> fuck!
[2021-06-24T04:08:06Z] <riteo> oh sorry
[2021-06-24T04:08:11Z] <consolers> no problem
[2021-06-24T04:08:14Z] <consolers> i cant figure out how to clear the backlog in tmux!
[2021-06-24T04:08:57Z] <riteo> oh for some reason esc doesn't want to work on screen
[2021-06-24T04:08:57Z] <consolers> ah clear-histroy
[2021-06-24T04:09:37Z] <riteo> oh it's just slow
[2021-06-24T04:09:39Z] <midfavila-laptop> hmm...
[2021-06-24T04:09:42Z] <consolers> i have to get used to kak - it'll have to be later and it'll take some time in old age
[2021-06-24T04:09:59Z] <midfavila-laptop> have you ever looked at stumpwm, consolers?
[2021-06-24T04:10:25Z] <consolers> yeah but i never used it.  i use a hacked version of dwm mostly
[2021-06-24T04:10:40Z] <midfavila-laptop> Ah, cool. I've been using stump the past few days. It's quite cool.
[2021-06-24T04:11:10Z] <midfavila-laptop> I just wish there was more stuff that was written in Lisp...
[2021-06-24T04:11:20Z] <riteo> be the change you want to see in the world mid
[2021-06-24T04:11:22Z] <midfavila-laptop> feels weird to install a complete language environment just for one program
[2021-06-24T04:11:22Z] <consolers> i run lisp from emacs - i never got into dumping lisp programs
[2021-06-24T04:11:35Z] <midfavila-laptop> using emacs makes me feel kind of dirty
[2021-06-24T04:11:41Z] <midfavila-laptop> like, if emacs was an OS, that would be cool
[2021-06-24T04:12:19Z] <consolers> mid all those sentiments are irrelevant in this age of rust node/gjs golang
[2021-06-24T04:12:35Z] <midfavila-laptop> ugh, tell me about it
[2021-06-24T04:12:49Z] <midfavila-laptop> i nearly had a stroke a while back when I found out FVWM has more Go in it than C
[2021-06-24T04:13:14Z] <consolers> i thought i successfully avoided java (and most of python in career) but the endtimes language landscape is beyond redemption
[2021-06-24T04:13:28Z] <midfavila-laptop> seems like it.
[2021-06-24T04:13:48Z] <midfavila-laptop> i just want to tinker with C, FORTH and Lisp, but those aren't Scalable:tm: and Enterprise:r: enough
[2021-06-24T04:14:09Z] <midfavila-laptop> ...unless you work for NASA or Grammarly, I guess?
[2021-06-24T04:14:16Z] <consolers> its all replication of the drawbacks of emacs/lisp but with VC investment and with a generation of fresh developer market to send to the devil
[2021-06-24T04:14:34Z] <riteo> my pc froze, epic
[2021-06-24T04:14:34Z] <midfavila-laptop> man, I don't think I could work as a developer. 
[2021-06-24T04:14:38Z] <midfavila-laptop> epic riteo moment
[2021-06-24T04:15:10Z] <midfavila-laptop> but yeah, ignoring my... uh, fantastic, programming skills... the stuff I've heard from friends who are getting into CS work is just awful
[2021-06-24T04:15:20Z] <midfavila-laptop> all the stupid scrum rituals or whatever they have to do
[2021-06-24T04:15:50Z] <riteo> corporate programming is very very messed up
[2021-06-24T04:16:10Z] <riteo> my teachers said to me that you either go to university and tell code monkeys what to do or become one
[2021-06-24T04:16:24Z] <midfavila-laptop> Mmh, that lines up with what I've heard.
[2021-06-24T04:16:33Z] <midfavila-laptop> I just want a /comfy/ sysadmin job, at this point.
[2021-06-24T04:16:51Z] <midfavila-laptop> Computer security has turned out to be kind of a joke of a field
[2021-06-24T04:17:09Z] <consolers> fvwm doesnt seem to be go is it
[2021-06-24T04:17:17Z] <riteo> well, considering what corpos want from coding it's obvious
[2021-06-24T04:17:18Z] <midfavila-laptop> nah, the core is written in C
[2021-06-24T04:17:26Z] <riteo> oh yeah, let's make our mandatory login screen in javascript
[2021-06-24T04:17:33Z] <midfavila-laptop> but its modules and extensions and etc are being replaced with Go
[2021-06-24T04:17:36Z] <riteo> does that sound safe to you
[2021-06-24T04:17:39Z] <consolers> i havent put it in this box but the version i compiled in 2.5.17 still runs
[2021-06-24T04:17:53Z] <midfavila-laptop> oh, yeah, the Go-ification has only started recently
[2021-06-24T04:18:06Z] <midfavila-laptop> but it was enough for me to jump ship
[2021-06-24T04:18:20Z] <midfavila-laptop> i don't want anything remotely important on my PCs to have anything to do with big corps, if I can help it
[2021-06-24T04:23:01Z] <midfavila-laptop> rip based boomer
[2021-06-24T04:23:26Z] <riteo> rip
[2021-06-24T04:23:40Z] <riteo> I still can't believe microsoft login is so messed up
[2021-06-24T04:23:53Z] <midfavila-laptop> that's microshit for you
[2021-06-24T04:24:00Z] <noocsharp> jesus christ it took me a full day to determine how to determine the type of an alsa control from a list of controls
[2021-06-24T04:24:04Z] <noocsharp> alsa-lib sucks
[2021-06-24T04:24:10Z] <midfavila-laptop> alsa sucks
[2021-06-24T04:24:15Z] <riteo> I have to agree here
[2021-06-24T04:24:41Z] <midfavila-laptop> if people spent half the effort they have on pulse and pipewire and esound and etc on rewriting alsa to not suck, linux would have the best sound subsystem of any OS
[2021-06-24T04:24:54Z] <riteo> idk, I like OSS' idea
[2021-06-24T04:24:58Z] <noocsharp> sound is like the simplest god damn thing a computer can do
[2021-06-24T04:25:01Z] <noocsharp> how do they fuck it up
[2021-06-24T04:25:07Z] <midfavila-laptop> oss is proprietary
[2021-06-24T04:25:10Z] <midfavila-laptop> and i mean
[2021-06-24T04:25:12Z] <riteo> what
[2021-06-24T04:25:17Z] <midfavila-laptop> uh, yeah
[2021-06-24T04:25:26Z] <midfavila-laptop> there's a reason it was dropped in the kernel and alsa was created
[2021-06-24T04:25:56Z] <riteo> BRUH
[2021-06-24T04:26:00Z] <riteo> it's free now though
[2021-06-24T04:26:07Z] <midfavila-laptop> too little too late
[2021-06-24T04:26:14Z] <riteo> yeah I agree
[2021-06-24T04:26:34Z] <riteo> although still, a file based sound system sounds cool af
[2021-06-24T04:28:03Z] <midfavila-laptop> if it could be used instead of alsa, I'd be open to experimentation
[2021-06-24T04:28:17Z] <noocsharp> sndio
[2021-06-24T04:28:37Z] <noocsharp> if only things supported it
[2021-06-24T04:30:42Z] <riteo> I've just skimmed its man page but it looks really interesting
[2021-06-24T04:30:54Z] <riteo> we'd just need 4 compatibility layers to make it work
[2021-06-24T04:31:06Z] <riteo> 5 if you count JACK
[2021-06-24T04:31:57Z] <midfavila-laptop> I think it has an ALSA emulation mode.
[2021-06-24T04:35:45Z] <testuser[m]1> Hi
[2021-06-24T04:35:49Z] <riteo> hi!
[2021-06-24T04:37:14Z] <noocsharp> man, sndio depends on alsa
[2021-06-24T04:37:32Z] <noocsharp> although given that it's linux, there isn't much of a choice
[2021-06-24T04:37:37Z] <riteo> oh
[2021-06-24T04:37:51Z] <riteo> why such a choice?
[2021-06-24T04:38:05Z] <noocsharp> alsa is the way linux does sound
[2021-06-24T04:38:11Z] <GalaxyNova> alsa > pulse
[2021-06-24T04:38:13Z] <noocsharp> it's built into the kernel
[2021-06-24T04:38:18Z] <riteo> oh
[2021-06-24T04:38:22Z] <GalaxyNova> anyone here tried pipewire?
[2021-06-24T04:38:26Z] <riteo> nope
[2021-06-24T04:38:30Z] <noocsharp> crapware vs bloatware
[2021-06-24T04:38:36Z] <GalaxyNova> people say it's better than pulseaudio
[2021-06-24T04:38:41Z] <riteo> what is it supposed to even have
[2021-06-24T04:38:56Z] <GalaxyNova> it's main feature is no popping
[2021-06-24T04:39:03Z] <acheam> it was actually originally meant for video IIRC
[2021-06-24T04:39:24Z] <riteo> oh luckily I've never had popping issues
[2021-06-24T04:40:02Z] <GalaxyNova> step 1: set volume to max without noticing it. step 2: wear headphones. step 3: turn on computer. step 4: enjoy permanent ear damage
[2021-06-24T04:40:08Z] <GalaxyNova> based on a true story
[2021-06-24T04:41:32Z] <riteo> oh lmao
[2021-06-24T04:41:46Z] <riteo> I remember a pair of headphones that had a very easily clickable vol+ button
[2021-06-24T04:42:17Z] <riteo> also for some reason my shitty ricer status bar made that button go up to 130% or so
[2021-06-24T04:42:57Z] <GalaxyNova> the popping tho
[2021-06-24T04:43:10Z] <riteo> oh, it popped?
[2021-06-24T04:43:23Z] <riteo> all I got was extremely loud sounds
[2021-06-24T04:43:59Z] <GalaxyNova> extremely loud pops every 5 time you open and close something that uses sound
[2021-06-24T04:44:17Z] <GalaxyNova> it's super annoying
[2021-06-24T04:44:57Z] <riteo> I didn't get pops, but do you know what I got with pulseaudio?
[2021-06-24T04:45:09Z] <riteo> very weird latency/buffer related issues
[2021-06-24T04:45:25Z] <riteo> like, with audacity short sounds wouldn't work
[2021-06-24T04:45:37Z] <riteo> I messed up some things and it worked, but it always feel like something's off
[2021-06-24T04:45:44Z] <riteo> s/feel/feels/
[2021-06-24T04:46:02Z] <riteo> welp, I'm way too tired, I think it's better if I go to sleep for now
[2021-06-24T04:46:11Z] <riteo> bye everyone!
[2021-06-24T06:13:30Z] <Erus_Iluvatar> midfavila: if you ever want to practice french hit me up
[2021-06-24T11:22:07Z] <midfavila> fuckin hell
[2021-06-24T11:22:19Z] <midfavila> the maintenance crew woke me up because they had to get in my apartment
[2021-06-24T11:22:47Z] <Erus_Iluvatar> Dafuq?
[2021-06-24T11:23:04Z] <midfavila> the water valves for the entire building run through my walls
[2021-06-24T11:23:15Z] <midfavila> it's whatever, the landlord gives me a discount on rent for accomodating them
[2021-06-24T11:27:28Z] <midfavila> oh, man, I just realized something
[2021-06-24T11:27:41Z] <midfavila> the pizza theme from spiderman 2 is a perfect song to represent my college
[2021-06-24T11:27:52Z] <midfavila> #justsleepdeprivationthoughts
[2021-06-24T12:26:40Z] <midfavila-laptop> https://vid.puffyan.us/watch?v=tc4ROCJYbm0
[2021-06-24T15:12:38Z] <testuser[m]1> Is there a way to do something like this in Makefiles or you need to duplicate the same lines as `mybin` ? https://termbin.com/mgy1
[2021-06-24T16:01:02Z] <omanom> speaking of different languages and keyboards and such... the automatic replacement of normal " with the stupid curly/"smart" quotes is what grinds my gears the most
[2021-06-24T16:11:43Z] <acheam> testuser[m]1: you can use a shell for loop
[2021-06-24T16:12:04Z] <acheam> or you can use a wild card
[2021-06-24T16:12:42Z] <acheam> but for loops are better for POSIX compatibility
[2021-06-24T16:14:10Z] <acheam> https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/860607/ef7cdf174ccbe54d/
[2021-06-24T16:50:37Z] <midfavila> aaa the Reform is close to shipping en-masse!
[2021-06-24T16:51:08Z] <midfavila> This is exciting... if I can run KISS on it, I actually might be willing to switch machines.
[2021-06-24T16:51:27Z] <noocsharp> the what?
[2021-06-24T16:51:30Z] <testuser[m]1> The wat
[2021-06-24T16:51:34Z] <testuser[m]1> Lol
[2021-06-24T16:51:52Z] <midfavila> Oh. It's an independently-developed laptop from a german company called MNT
[2021-06-24T16:51:58Z] <midfavila> it's the only OSHWA-certified laptop
[2021-06-24T16:52:06Z] <midfavila> all the hardware and software sources are available
[2021-06-24T16:52:19Z] <testuser[m]1> Nice
[2021-06-24T16:52:21Z] <midfavila> and it's designed to have a modular layout, so you can upgrade the system down the line
[2021-06-24T16:52:45Z] <midfavila> the standard models rn use an ARM SoC, but I've heard that there are tentative plans for a RISC-V module later on
[2021-06-24T16:52:53Z] <testuser[m]1> Specs seem.pretty weak
[2021-06-24T16:53:05Z] <testuser[m]1>  ddr3?
[2021-06-24T16:53:10Z] <midfavila> my advice if you want powerful specs is to use a desktop
[2021-06-24T16:53:18Z] <midfavila> instead of a laptop that focuses on *open hardware*
[2021-06-24T16:53:36Z] <noocsharp> wtf is that keyboard layout
[2021-06-24T16:54:23Z] <midfavila> yeah, that's a common reaction
[2021-06-24T16:54:28Z] <midfavila> the split spacebar is kind of controversial
[2021-06-24T16:54:31Z] <midfavila> https://mntre.com/media/reform_v2_images/mnt-reform-production-unit.jpg
[2021-06-24T16:54:39Z] <midfavila> anyway, this is the latest image, if you were curious.
[2021-06-24T16:55:19Z] <noocsharp> i mean my current keyboard has a split spacebar so that's not the problem
[2021-06-24T16:55:25Z] <noocsharp> the problem is the delete key where shift should be
[2021-06-24T16:55:55Z] <midfavila> i'd rather a delete key next to shift than having the delete key wherever laptop manufacturers normally put it
[2021-06-24T16:56:06Z] <noocsharp> i never touch the delete key
[2021-06-24T16:56:10Z] <midfavila> you're missing out
[2021-06-24T16:56:15Z] <midfavila> the delete key is awesome
[2021-06-24T16:56:16Z] <omanom> is that a trackball instead of a pad?
[2021-06-24T16:56:18Z] <midfavila> yup
[2021-06-24T16:56:21Z] <midfavila> but it's swappable
[2021-06-24T16:56:33Z] <midfavila> so you can replace the trackball with a pad, or even remove it completely
[2021-06-24T16:56:41Z] <omanom> i want my nubby, is that an option
[2021-06-24T16:56:42Z] <midfavila> it's USB2 internally, so you could add something else 
[2021-06-24T16:57:00Z] <midfavila> and since the hardware is open... well, figure out how to hook a thinkpad nub up and it's an option :p 
[2021-06-24T16:57:07Z] <midfavila> could probably make a fair bit of money on that, honestly
[2021-06-24T16:57:33Z] <midfavila> i'd kill for a RISC-V laptop with a trackpoint and e-ink display, personally
[2021-06-24T16:57:39Z] <omanom> i dunno, i thought i was in the very small minority of nub lovers
[2021-06-24T16:57:59Z] <midfavila> this is the kind of laptop that screams "i'm a techno-hipster", and most techno-hipsters I know obsess over old ThinkPads
[2021-06-24T16:58:14Z] <omanom> used to play counter-strike with the nub
[2021-06-24T16:58:25Z] <midfavila> amazing
[2021-06-24T16:58:44Z] <midfavila> ...oh, and another thing about the keyboard, it uses mechanical switches
[2021-06-24T16:59:11Z] <midfavila> which is just neato
[2021-06-24T16:59:30Z] <noocsharp> yeah i saw, pretty nifty
[2021-06-24T16:59:32Z] <omanom> my college laptop was a thinkpad t43, pre-lenovo.  still my favorite i've ever used minus the screen shape
[2021-06-24T16:59:42Z] <midfavila> dude
[2021-06-24T16:59:47Z] <midfavila> 4:3 is the superior aspect ratio
[2021-06-24T16:59:55Z] <midfavila> if you're doing literally anything other than consooming content
[2021-06-24T17:00:15Z] <omanom> i've always preferred a little more rectangular than 4:3.  i don't really like any of the options to be honest
[2021-06-24T17:00:33Z] <midfavila> until the day comes when I can have a 1:1 display on my laptop, I will settle for 4:3
[2021-06-24T17:00:36Z] <noocsharp> i think 3:2 is better
[2021-06-24T17:00:42Z] <midfavila> 3:2 is... 
[2021-06-24T17:00:50Z] <midfavila> well, it's not nearly as bad as 16:9
[2021-06-24T17:00:55Z] <noocsharp> its 15:9
[2021-06-24T17:00:58Z] <omanom> lol i was gonna say 16:9 isn't too bad
[2021-06-24T17:01:20Z] * midfavila shrugs
[2021-06-24T17:01:36Z] <noocsharp> wait no its 15:10
[2021-06-24T17:02:23Z] <omanom> all personal preference really.  its not something that is critical to what product i choose
[2021-06-24T17:02:39Z] <midfavila> you can't enjoy product that I don't enjoy, omanom!
[2021-06-24T17:02:42Z] <midfavila> grr
[2021-06-24T17:04:11Z] <midfavila> oh hey, there are people working on an ortho keyboard mod for the reform already
[2021-06-24T17:04:13Z] <midfavila> very cool.
[2021-06-24T17:09:41Z] <omanom> yeah, the openness is refreshing
[2021-06-24T17:09:43Z] <omanom> hope they do well
[2021-06-24T17:10:55Z] <midfavila> I do too. 
[2021-06-24T17:11:11Z] <midfavila> the only bummer for me is the lack of SATA
[2021-06-24T17:11:26Z] <midfavila> they only have a single M.2 slot, and it's keyed for a storage medium
[2021-06-24T17:11:33Z] <midfavila> i guess you could run the entire system off an SD card
[2021-06-24T17:11:34Z] <midfavila> but..
[2021-06-24T17:12:00Z] <midfavila> either way, it'll be addressed in a future motherboard, I'm sure.
[2021-06-24T17:13:58Z] <midfavila> I'm imagining a future where they upscale it into a desktop replacement model with loads of mPCIe and M.2 interfaces...
[2021-06-24T17:14:00Z] * midfavila drools
[2021-06-24T21:56:09Z] <kimerus> hi guys
[2021-06-24T21:57:49Z] <kimerus> anyone use xorg and chroot? if someone can help me with this please use the steam scripts of git-bruh it not works for my
[2021-06-24T21:58:00Z] <kimerus> I need to know if is just me or not
[2021-06-24T22:33:51Z] <GalaxyNova> oof
[2021-06-24T22:33:57Z] <GalaxyNova> any1 watched the microsoft event
[2021-06-24T22:34:17Z] <GalaxyNova> ?
[2021-06-24T23:17:46Z] <midfavila-laptop> nothin' like a 43mb hello world to remind you that you're programming in lisp
[2021-06-24T23:17:53Z] <midfavila-laptop> thank you, based sbcl