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Let me start by apologizing for the sensational headline but it really is something that I encountered that stopped me in my tracks.
I am currently a year into my journey to switch away from big tech and have been setting up my own digital sovereignty. I have my own website, I host my own email (sort of) and I have a handful of indispensable services all running quietly on a little tiny box in my closet. So for me this is all very satisfying and yet is almost an exact replacement to the services I was using a year ago. Along the way I have built up an understanding of the basic principals of Linux and have spent quite a bit of time in the terminal and of course been tinkering with config files ....... so many config files........ however......
From my wife's point of view, anyone using Linux looks like a regular person except worse. A normal person will open their laptop and download an important attachment form their email. Then they will continue with whatever related important life task, all in less than 5 minutes.
On the other hand a Linux user will open their laptop and then get lost doing whatever Linux stuff for maybe a few hours and then be no closer to getting the email attachment and will need to be reminded about some other deadline so then they download the attachment on their phone instead and then I need to convert it because it is not in the same ecosystem only to find out that the file format is not standard and so then I have to research an alternative and in the end my wife just does it herself and now I am on thin ice for the rest of the day... (hypothetically of course)
Her opinion extends to any kind of free community software that isn't perfectly polished. Even though in principal the FLOSS equivalent is the same as a proprietary solution, in practice the chances of some amount of time wasting or trouble shooting is not zero. She doesn't see the fight for freedom, the sense of community or satisfaction of self determination. She has no mental bandwidth to consider the enshitification of the web or slow decline in the quality of our entertainment. She is not dubious about subscriptions. For her, outsourcing something, at any cost, is always the better deal. For her, Linux users are metaphorically "always dressed inappropriately and acting counterintuitively" as if they were real life cosplayers that never got out of costume. She has no time for any of this, let alone any kind of discussion about it.
I have also been reading a lot about the power of collective cooperation. It is demotivating to think of all the investment in closed software that could have been diverted to open software. If open projects were adequately funded then not only would there be no competition between open and closed software but my wife and others like her would be completely ambivalent about it!
I like Linux and the way she feels about it makes me sad.
💔
2023-10-05 · 7 months ago · 👍 kleb, Minko_Ikana, byte · 🤔 1 ❤ 1
👻 mediocregopher [...] · 2023-10-05 at 06:48:
I've been a primarily Linux user for the last 10 years, and my wife is ride-or-die apple, so I get where you're coming from.
People care about different things, and that's ok. For me I see technology as a means to improve people's lives, to connect with others in new ways, and as mechanism to enrich our lives in previously impossible ways. So when technology companies are getting in the way of those goals for profit motives I get annoyed and am willing to spend inordinate amounts of time tinkering and trying OSS solutions and all the rest.
But I get that other people don't share that vision, and for them technology is just a tool which may or may not be useful to get a job done. If subscriptions or vendor lock-in or DRM riddled nonsense is the way to do it then so be it. We've all got things to do, and I'm glad there's someone out there who cares about things that I don't care about, because I'm certainly not gonna care about them :)
My advice to you, if you're asking for it, is that if you want someone to accept your technology as legitimate, you need to show that it can provide an experience that meets their expectations. Linux doesn't _have_ to be a time sink, it can just work, but it takes some restraint to not be constantly fiddling with it and to leave well enough alone.
I've definitely had those days where I set off to do a simple thing, and it turns into a whole project. But it's always my fault, in the end. I chose some new exciting tech I didn't _really_ need, or I bought some hardware without proper research, or I'm going way out of my way to dodge a shitty file format just out of principle. These things didn't happen to me, they are me.
Once someone actually needs something from me, though, the tinkering stops. I can't expect others to have the same outlook as me, and therefore the same patience. I either get it done or tell them how they could do it with whatever they're working with, remembering for a later date what the issue was and perhaps working on a solution in my own time.
Computers and how people use them are too complicated. I love tinkering with Linux and customizing everything, but I completely understand most people's impulse towards "it should just work."
😎 flipperzero · 2023-10-05 at 09:44:
Differences aside, if you consider the perspective between different use cases and the respect for individual preference in utility, your personal connection should maintain without issue regardless of isolated preference for tech if there's no reason for the two fields to interfere. It seems that whether or not either of you prefer one or the other, should be irrelevant to how you both express endearment for eachother. For example, in much the same way it's demonstrated that perhaps she finds some disinterest to the linux system as a whole, would you say that in some manner you yourself might find some criticism in something say like Apple macOS/iOS software or Microsoft software? <pt1>
😎 flipperzero · 2023-10-05 at 09:48:
<cont'd> Either way, those personal preferences are only relevant to how you personally see fit wanting to interact with technology you wanna use and the purpose you want to use that tech for. How one of you thinks about a group of software contrary to the other ultimately shouldn't color how it affects you what they think about it, as what they think about it shouldn't reflect how they think about you, as those personal preferences don't embody who we are as a person. Our character, quality of ethic, individuality, and integrity is what embodies us as a person, regardless of what anyone thinks about the things we involve in or take preference for.
ALL THAT SAID: It coulda easily been minics e
😎 flipperzero · 2023-10-05 at 09:58:
(Afternote: speaking from perspective with my own wife, who spends her time more with windows 11, web + apple-based tech, while I spend my time on linux and smallnet. I don't mind what she does, and take involvement, and she doesn't mind and finds fascination in it. Cheers, and god speed to you both!)
🚀 Minko_Ikana · 2023-10-05 at 15:00:
New to Gemini, but I hade this issue a few years back. The common ground that repaired it was Linux Mint Cinnamon. Basically a full GUI that operates like Windows 7.
🦀 jeang3nie · 2023-10-05 at 15:16:
While I can see how your wife comes to this conclusion, I've been using Open Source for so long that I find the opposite to be true. If I try to use Windows for anything beyond web browsing I immediately run into road blocks and have to do a bunch of research into how everything works on this exotic platform.
Any kind of software development shows this problem immediately. In particular from a fresh installation. Last time I tried to set up Windows for developing C/C++ (for my son on his way to college) it took me hours to find the download which gave him the command line version of the MSVC toolchain. On FreeBSD I've got the compiler, headers, build tools and vi all in the base install. About the only extra package I really need is git, which is a single command away.
Now, most people aren't software devs and have different needs. But for me, proprietary systems are and always have been frustrating and woefully incomplete.
🌲 sloum · 2023-10-05 at 16:10:
While I can see a decent amount of config for most systems when first getting set up... once you get a system pretty dialed in, it shouldn't take much tinkering. Tinkering is a hobby, not a necessary part of using a unix-like system (for the most part). Sure, things come up from time to time, but I very very rarely have to change config stuff on any of my systems (FreeBSD, Ubuntu, and BunsenLabs). The BunsenLabs setup in particular is just lightweight, solid, does what it needs to do with no fuss.
🚀 stack · 2023-10-06 at 02:41:
I can relate. My SO likes Apple products in spite of my frequent rants (and even shared hatred of Jobs). She is a visual artist, so I get it - everyone else uses Macs... At least we seem to be done with winders.
If someone wants free software be used, we must never forget it must remain useful to its users.
I also started self-hosting my own data a few years ago, starting with a Nextcloud instance to store our pictures and some documentation. Guess what? My wife never liked it - she knew well how to use it, but it was painfully slow and just didn't work.
I was so frustrated that I wrote my own replacement in C99 using as few dependencies as possible: https://gitea.privatedns.org/xavi/slcl
And now? slcl isn't nearly as fancy, JS-rich or fully-fledged as Nextcloud by any means, but *it works* fast and smooth. Since then, she is always happy about the change, and wants to use it everyday.
❤️ sugar · 2023-10-06 at 19:33:
Her priorities are different. That's okay.
🚀 stack · 2023-10-07 at 00:24:
Much as I despise Jobs as a person, he definitely latched onto what must be a bug in the human brain. As Stallman pointed out, Jobs built a very shiny prison that people were very happy to be stuck in, without giving a thought about freedoms some of us care about. This push for a very shallow aesthetic over everything else shaped much of our world - people care more about perception than reality.
Usability of software is important, but it does not have to be big and shiny, and constantly replaced, like the iPhone. That is now an expectation. Simple solutions that may appear rough around the edges are avoided (often for a good reason). Few people think of the need to actually tinker with their tools - largely because the same trends of largesse and shinyness are solidly permeating development tools and languages. Developing software is no longer something a hacker does, because it requires a production team reminiscent of a movie (movies are now billion-dollar productions even though a 4K camera is cheaper than a sushi dinner).
Until we recognize this as an awful capitalist trend designed to imprison individuals and seize all means of production, this will continue to work against us. And that is why I will never use an Apple product. My wife no doubt thinks I am a fool to refuse a perfectly good sandwich made by Hitler. She thinks we already lost, but I am still hopeful.
🚀 stack · 2023-10-07 at 00:41:
@clseibold: absolutely. Linux has succumbed to the same race to the same shiny trap, and is ballooning at an amazing rate. Many subsystems are layers upon layers of crap that no one ever looks at, and instead of fixing and shrinking the system, everyone wants to add a large (and popular) project.
A huge amount of effort is spent on making Linux look like a Mac or a Windows machine - something truly unthinkable to me (I use dwm, the simplest tiling window manager possible and avoid attention-foulding trinkets as much as I can).
I also switched to FreeBSD a few days ago, as even XUbuntu was getting way to big for me to not be constantly annoyed. Things are more sane in FreeBSD.
🦀 jeang3nie · 2023-10-07 at 01:17:
@stack your comments are reminding me of my last gemlog post, where I explored the concepts of "finished" and "feature complete" in terms of software, and how screwed up our expectations have become in regards to those concepts.
DWM is actually a good example of a piece of software that is "finished".
i think objectively we cannot compare usability because it is a matter of experience.
for example my parents were almost Always using linux because of me. my mother understands the philosophy behind floss and values it. if she had to choose, i am confident she would prefer to have freedom instead of usability. but she doesnt have to choose because all what she needs is there for her and because she us used to use linux.
my father has no philosophical reasons to use linux. he just had to because i was the one who decided.
so he almost never used anything else. he was used to gnome 2 for years on desktop pcs. later he bought a laptop and it came with windows and he was not able to use it.
so he asked to install linux and by that he meant something he already knows how to use. so i installed manjaro with mate and i have never touched it since then gor years. everything wotks and he is absolutely satisfied.
so i believe this is not a problem of the tech being objectively more ot less usable because it depends on what the user is used to.
it surely feels frustrating if someone close criticises you forwhat is important for you or even if they do not support you in it.
of course you cannot give up your journey. do what you like. learn to use floss. feel better because you are more free.
your wife surely has own device so she can use whatever she likes.
i can hope she will be willing to use a messenger which supports a democratically governed open proticol like xmpp on her devices to stay in contact and you wont have to use a proprietary centralized messenger.
i think couples need to accept and find what to value in things they consider strange in a partner.
time changes things. years ago only few people used floss, today much more.
whatevet felt strange some years ago feels normal or mainstream today.
it may happen that some years later she will want to switch herself.
and i wanted to mention that if i installed freebsd with mate i think my father would not notice any difference.
to the folks here who expressed dissatisfaction with the state of midern linux distributions i would like say that i obviously understand them myself.
just i think that using floss is already different from using proprietary software like heaven and hell.
floss is already very good. you dont like systemd - there is alpine and void, and i build my gentoo as i want. you like bsd - there it is.
but thought it may seem that freebsd and ubuntu are very different, lets remember that for someone who uses windows those are very far away and very clise yo each other.
if someone uses floss we have to thank you them gor making world a better place even if they use ubuntu which i also do not like.
i was lucky my wife used to have linux at home because her brother was a fan. also because her brother realized it is much easier to support linux at home even on sister's computer.
she herself is very open minded and didn't feel limited. for her it is very normal that people ate dufferent and think differently and she has very different friends herself and i am amazed by how liberal she is. i wish i was so liberal.
so she uses pinebook because i got her one (but i knew she would like it) and she chose xfce. i suggested gnome, mate, enlightenment, but she liked xfce.
peofessionally she used to use cad software on windows (autocad, revit) and also illustrator and pbotoshop.
on pinebook i installed some cad software to try and she chose qcad. she knows it is not as convenient as proprietary software she was used to, but she doesn't care much, it is not a big deal for her. she enjoys the pinebook it is very important for her that she can charge it with regular 2 amper phone charger, that it is energy efficient.
she enjoys that it feels different than mainstream windows and macos but she is not attracted to mainstream in all areas of her life.
i sometimes feel narrow minded compared to her but she is liberal so she tolerates me so far.
so i mentioned cad, she also sometimes has to open or edit very big photos, more than 100mpx, and pinebook only has 4gbs of memory. surprisingly it works very well with that big photos.
she knows that gimp is also not as flexible as photishop but she doesnt care much, just uses gimp and sometimes makes the same thing by more movements, and that is also not a big deal.
when we were starting the relationship i knew i would not use any proprietary messenger, and i dont use a phone (well sim card, number) either. on the other hand i didnt feel comfortable to change someones habits and to ask to use jabber so i didnt even mention it and used a phone at work or email for short communication.
later when i had a courage to suggest to use another app to be in contact with me i was surprised that iy didnt feel a big deal for her. she just felt this is fun and she now has several contacts and group chats in her jabber client.
she got friends with my friends and my friends use jabber.
so there are group chats and one to one chats they use to stay in contact.
at the same time she uses proprietary messengers to stay in contact with her older friends and family.
sometimes she uses a second phone i got her with sailfish os on it. it doesnt cover all she needs but it runs duo lingo and an rss reader. she was a google reader user back then so she likes rss readers.
in the future i think on new device i will install an open android build or sailfish with google play services floss replacemeny, dont remember now how was it called, gecko, like the browser engine? and it wont be a problem. still i realize how privileged i am that we both try to not pressure each other or make each others lives uncomfortable for various reasons and reasons always can be found if there is a desire to find those.
🚀 Bazmatazable [OP] · Dec 13 at 04:55:
Thanks for your insight, maybe you are right and that with time her opinion will change. I'm not expecting anything and I have come to love and accept her all the same. My only hope is that I can expose my daughter! She wil get Linux from her Dad and Apple from her Mum and may the best one win! 😋
i think there is no 'best'. if macos is million times 'better', whatever it means, than 'linux' (whatever that word means) i still would never consider using non libre software.
this isnt a questiin of 'best', this is a question of does the person feel that freedom is more important than convenience? some people have that feeling and some people not. most of the people do not.
in order to feel they have to know some things, i guess. or be not indifferent to some things.
i dont know how people feel some things, and why some of them feel and some not.
it is maybe not even about knowledge?
sometimes i feel that i and some conspiracy believers are very close. the difference is that i know it is hard to make a robot which lives in your blood, you need to solve the problen of power and communication, and fit somewhere the antenna.
they do not know that and may afraid of unknown.
but otherwise we both are suspicious to governments and big companies, big powers.
we are not happy with the status quo.
so i value and respect these people and dislike when others are making fun of conspiracy believers. though it is so hard to communicate with them!
and they afraid of 'wrong' things!
so one aspect of this gut feeling is low trust maybe. but i trust people around me. not the gov.
other reason to not be happy with what is there is creativity.
creatives tend to be able to do by themselves what they like.
to be able to play and sing that song. or to be able to craft that guitar in order to play that song. or even invent a new song.
some creatives want to create video games and it starts with them appreciating video games.
when you want to create yourself, often you want to deal with tech you can build or repeat
for some thats about drawing with oil on canvas rather than on a computer.
for some it is being able to wriye a rendering engine.
it is hard to implement a complex spec. so creative programmers love gemini for its simple specification they can implement.
i am coming closer to the idea that creatives love to also create within limitations. to choose a limitibg at first glance palette for example.
so some of us feel we need limitations. not features.
we need not what is the 'best' but what limits us.
this is another way to feel not satisfued witg macos. can we write it? no! compile it? no! so not interesting.
🚀 Bazmatazable [OP] · Dec 14 at 07:15:
For a long time I thought that people with uncommon beliefs were just ignorant and all we need was to give them more facts. Now I understand that each person is deeply influenced by their individual experiences and so it is very hard for any of us to be perfectly rational. Like you, I forgive believeing in a conspiracy because I also made many mistakes in my beliefs in the past. I don't forgive being stubborn. If you can learn new ideas then even if you are wrong today there is a chance to be correct tomorrow.