đŸ Archived View for gemini.ctrl-c.club âș ~ssb22 âș cisas.gmi captured on 2024-05-26 at 15:27:56. Gemini links have been rewritten to link to archived content
âŹ ïž Previous capture (2023-01-29)
âĄïž Next capture (2024-07-09)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
These technical problems seem poorly understood, so Iâm putting this here in the hope that affected customers can find it via search.
The notes on this page are old: we havenât been with either company since 2017.âIâm leaving this up for now in case anything is still useful, but it has not been re-tested recently.
Initial complaint sent to CISAS mid-October 2015:
Dear CISAS, I am writing regarding the inability of Virgin Mobile billing software to recognise +44 numbers as UK numbers.
A local Chinese family on low income, who speak very little English, asked me to help track down the reason for Virgin Mobile direct-debit payments from their bank.âIt turned out they had somehow been sold a Virgin Mobile contract SIM without being aware of it, and Virginâs envelope containing the SIM was still unopened in their drawer.âThe contract had already run for 2 months so Virgin said it was too late to cancel, so the family kindly decided to let my wife use that SIM for the remaining 10 months, but without actually transferring the contract because my wife was not a Virgin customer and therefore not eligible for the discounted contract they had.
The deal supposedly included âunlimitedâ minutes and texts to UK numbers, but over the last 3 months Virgin has overcharged by a total of ÂŁ52.35, and their call centre said this was because 349 UK texts were sent to numbers starting with +447 instead of 07, causing their system to bill them as âpremiumâ text messages at 15p each, instead of being included in the âunlimitedâ bundle.
Unfortunately, my wife uses an iPhone.âThe iPhoneâs Messaging application seems to silently add the +44 prefix on some outgoing messages even though +44 is not stored in the contact that is being messaged.âDespite the fact that I hold a PhD in Computer Science, I was not able to figure out how to prevent this behaviour, other than by urging my wife to abandon her beloved iPhone and instead use a phone that clearly displays exactly what number is being texted.âI suspect that incoming messages are arriving with a +44 prefix and that the iPhone is abstracting this away on its âthreaded conversationâ screens, hence leading the user to send replies to the +44 version of the number unawares.
One Virgin operator initially offered to refund the ÂŁ52.35, but he then passed the call to the technical team with a view to helping us change the phoneâs behaviour.âThe technical team were not able to help, and passed us back to the main menu.âThe next operator we spoke to said the ÂŁ52.35 could not be refunded, but at least he issued a PAC so we could switch my wife to a more suitable network.â(By this time we were in the final month of the contract.)
I checked through all the printed matter that came with the SIM, and there was nothing in there to imply calls or texts starting with +44 instead of 0 would be excluded.âI believe this was an amendment to their system made in mid-2015 (because it didnât overcharge before that time, and there was no change on our side; contrary to repeated suggestions from call centre staff, we have not been abroad during that time).âThe change clearly makes this SIM unsuitable for use with an iPhone, and I believe it should be more clearly advertised, so potential customers of Virgin Mobile understand they are getting a deal that includes calls/texts to UK numbers *only when they start with 0* and not when they start with the equivalent +44, even though incoming calls and texts sometimes arrive with the +44 prefix and every sensible UK network doesnât mind.
The account holder is a âMiss [name deleted]â and the SIM was sent to [address deleted], but she has since moved to [address deleted] (and she is Mrs, not Miss, so mistakes were clearly made on a form somewhere).âShe has forgotten her account password (weâve had her answer some security questions every time we called the help desk) and she has not set up any Internet access to the account.âThe phone number of the SIM (soon to be ported away) is [number deleted] and the contract was for unlimited minutes and texts and 250M/month of data.
Many thanks.
Silas
CISAS responded 1Â week later saying I should try to resolve this more formally with Virgin Mobile before escalating to them.âI therefore sent much the same text to VM via the resolver.co.uk service.âVM responded the next working day (but I didnât see it for a week; I later discovered Resolver *had* tried to alert me but my filters had misclassified it as âspamâ), saying the charges to +447 were âa known error from our endâ and âthe account will be noted to advise that a refund for these charges is requiredâ but they need the account holder to telephone with security details.âI did it with her a few days later and they said a refund should be sent to her bank within a week.
Three weeks later the account holder said the refund had still not been deposited, so I tried to send Virgin another message via Resolver but it failed; Resolverâs support confirmed Virgin âappear to have completely removed their customer service email optionâ and suggested trying to resolve via telephone âuntil we can rearrange this with the companyâ.âI phoned again when next with the account holder: the operator promised to chase it through with management and call me back, but she didnât call.âOne week later, the Resolver system allowed us to escalate the case to CISAS, who responded in 4Â days with a standard letter asking us to fill in a form, submit evidence and ask for compensation.âI submitted the Resolver case file as evidence and asked for the ÂŁ52.35 refund plus ÂŁ50 for our trouble (possibly an undervaluation, but I wanted the adjudicator to feel this was a âno-brainerâ case).âThey formerly opened the case on 26Â January, giving Virgin 2Â weeks to respond.âHowever, I then discovered that the account holder had left me a message that morning saying that Virgin had in fact returned the ÂŁ52.35 to her bank 13Â days earlier (5Â days after our last call to Virgin) but sheâd only just noticed, so I had to apologise to CISAS for having opened a case saying the refund still hadnât been paid when it had.
After porting the number to Vectone, messages to affected contacts were not sent at all.âWe caused the iPhoneâs âMessagesâ application to display the actual number in use by adding an extra digit to the number in the contacts so it wouldnât match, and the âMessagesâ application then displayed the number using 44 *without* a plus.âI donât know if that means it tried to *send* the number in this format: if so then we were misinformed by the Virgin call centre which had told us the messages had gone to +44, but itâs plausible that the iPhone had somehow tried to send it *without* the + and Virginâs system had somehow delivered it anyway but overcharged and the call centre operators didnât realise this lack of + was significant.
Deleting a conversation did *not* fix the inability to send messages to that contact on Vectone.âBut we then noticed an affected contact also had *another* number attached, which was not a well-formed UK number.â(It was in fact the Hong Kong landline number of a calling-card company once used to cheaply call this contact from there, but it didnât have an international dialling code and therefore wasnât valid from the UK.)âIt turned out *this* number had to be deleted from the contact before outgoing messages would work *even though it was not the number we were selecting when trying to send the message*.
Iâm tempted to say the short version of all this is âdonât buy an iPhoneâ.âBut if you do, beware of storing local phone numbers of more than one country in the same contact: doing this somehow confuses Appleâs Messages application into sending text messages that are either not delivered (with Vectone) or result in a bill shock (with Virgin).âAs weâre not allowed to see the source code of either Appleâs iOS 9.1 or the mobile networksâ systems, Iâm not able to give any more insight as to *why* this happens, but at least weâve identified the problem (I think).
(Another âquirkâ we found was an apparent inability of Vectone to pass caller ID to a long-distance company called Rebtel, which relies on caller ID to identify its customers.âThe workaround was to log in to Rebtelâs website and choose to have âlocal numbersâ with a Birmingham code instead of a London â020 3â code.)
Unfortunately we later had problems with Vectoneâs billing system as well, and I had to open *this* case on Resolver:
Dear Customer Service Team,
I am contacting you as I believe that I am being overcharged.âTo explain in more detail:
We topped up ÂŁ5 initially, then ÂŁ30 on 5Â November to get the ÂŁ15 bonus credit for porting a number in.âWe verified that the balance was now ÂŁ50.âThen we activated a âPocket Saver 10â bundle, and confirmed that it was active and that the balance had now dropped to ÂŁ40.âWe expected this to last 5 months, auto-renewing at ÂŁ10 a month.âBut on 27 December we had only 18p credit left.
Checking the payment and usage logs online, we saw the ÂŁ30, but we didnât see the original ÂŁ5, and we didnât see the ÂŁ15 bonus.âAdditionally we saw that UK calls (to 01, 02, 03 and 07), UK texts (to 07) and data had all been charged for, even though that was supposed to be included in the bundle.âThe charge seemed to be 1p a minute, 1p a text, and data seemed random (sometimes 0, sometimes not).âWhen we phoned a customer service representative, she said her system was not able to load our account details and asked us to call back another day.
The only unusual thing we did was, just before discovering the credit was only 18p, we tried to send a very long SMS message with over 100 fragments.âI understand from the terms and conditions that this might have led to the SMS service being suspended until reactivated by customer services, but would that result in back-dated charges being added to all calls, texts and data?
I would like you to unblock the SMS facility on the account, give us back ÂŁ30 credit (i.e. our original ÂŁ50 minus ÂŁ20 for 2 months of Pocket Saver 10), and let us know how to avoid these extra charges in future.
Although SMS started working again the following day, on 4 January outgoing calls started redirecting to the âtop-up menuâ and we received a generic email saying our case is being handled and nothing else.âWe received nothing for months and then escalated to CISAS, which asked us to submit a formal application, which we finally did in October 2016 (prompted by new students asking adviceâit would be nice to get to the bottom of this so as to have a good answer for such questions); we said:
Between 16 October 2015 and 27 December 2015, we paid a total of ÂŁ35 and bought three ÂŁ10 bundles (auto-renewing); we were also given some âbonus creditâ.
However on 27 December 2015 we discovered our credit balance was 18p, and we had been charged for most of the calls despite their supposedly being covered by the bundle.
Subsequent investigation showed that Vectoneâs billing system exhibits the following flawed behaviour: if your credit balance is non-zero, you will often be charged for calls that should have been covered by your bundle, but if your credit balance is zero, the calls will come out of the bundle as they should.
Therefore it seems the correct way to use Vectone is to make one-off top-ups in amounts that are only just enough to buy a bundle, then buy the bundle and leave the balance at zero.âThis needs to be manually repeated each month.âIf this is done, Vectoneâs system behaves as it should.âBut if you try to top up large amounts (for example to take advantage of a bonus offer), you will lose.
*What action would you like to be taken?* Investigate why the billing system is behaving badly, and fix the program.
I might be able to help if you send me the source code (I am a software developer).
If the system cannot be fixed, warn customers that if they choose to use bundles they should not top up any more than the bundle amount and they should not activate auto top-up (they may lose money if they do).
*Please provide details of the apology you are seeking:* It would be nice not to have been ignored so much.âPlease recognise that I am trying to help your business by pointing out a bug in your software that can be fixed.âI just get fobbed-off or ignored on the phone and emails get no replies.
On 20th October we had a call from Vectone and the operator said the excess charging was due to that 100-fragment SMS.âHer computer told her that âover 500â text messages were sent in one day, which, she said, triggered a âcommercial useâ penalty after the 300th message, causing everything to be charged for.âThat behaviour didnât match their Terms and Conditions, which said at the time:
SMS usage is subject to a fair use policy of 100 SMS per day.âOnce your usage reaches this amount, your SMS feature will get blocked
so if the operatorâs explanation is correct, the implications are:
1. The system somehow managed to count 400 extra messages *after* the point at which it was *supposed* to block.âEither the system failed to block at the correct time (and the handset somehow sent far more messages than we were aware of sending), or else the system correctly blocked but then somehow went on counting (was the handset automatically retrying and the system was counting its failed attempts? or did the billing software get stuck in some kind of loop counting imaginary extra messages after the block?)
2. If the programmers implemented a block at 100 messages and *also* a âpenalty detectorâ at 300 messages, then either they *knew* itâll carry on counting after the block, or there was a lack of coordination between different developers.
3. The software for that âcharge for everythingâ penalty would have to *back-date* the higher billing behaviour to much earlier than the time of the offence.â(Otherwise, we wouldnât have seen the extra charges in the online usage logs for dates *before* that of the offending SMS usage.)
4. Since others have also reported disappearing Vectone credit, itâs possible that this âapply a penalty tariffâ logic can also (incorrectly) activate under other circumstances.
Anyway, they kindly said theyâd refund the ÂŁ15 and, while they didnât say theyâd fix the system, we felt weâd now drawn it to their attention as much as we reasonably could.â(Unfortunately, they got my wife to agree to receive the ÂŁ15 as phone credit rather than a cheque; this credit was mostly wasted due to failure to cancel an auto-renewing bundle when she was out of the UK.âBut at least weâd tried hard to get them to look at the issue.)
It was a mistake to top up as much as ÂŁ30 just to get a ÂŁ15 âbonusâ: it turns out the Terms and Conditions say âpromotional creditâ cannot be used to buy bundles, so we wouldnât have much use for it anyway, and seeing as Vectoneâs billing system is apparently more likely to overcharge if there is credit on the account, the best strategy is:
1. Donât choose a bundle whose price is not available as a top-up amount;
2. Top-up only as much as is needed to subscribe to a bundle immediately, leaving (near-)0 balance (and *do not* activate auto top-up, which will try to keep the balance above ÂŁ2 and therefore vulnerable to overcharging);
3. Ensure the phoneâs âmobile dataâ is switched off before starting the top-up process, and switch on only after receiving the bundleâs confirmation message.
This needs to be manually repeated each month.
In February 2017 we moved away from Vectone, as theyâd reduced the value of our bundle 3 times during the previous year and were no longer competitive.âObtaining their PAC was a 3-minute call with no questions asked.
All material © Silas S. Brown unless otherwise stated. Apple is a trademark of Apple Inc. iPhone is a trademark of Apple in some countries. Vectone is a trademark of Vectone Group Holding Plc. Any other trademarks I mentioned without realising are trademarks of their respective holders.