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💾 Archived View for gemini.ctrl-c.club › ~phoebos › logs › kisslinux-2022-08-19.txt captured on 2024-03-21 at 15:53:12.
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[2022-08-19T01:22:24Z] <wael[m]> its in the main repositories right?
[2022-08-19T01:22:28Z] <wael[m]> for me its in kiss-xorg and grepo
[2022-08-19T01:26:13Z] <virutalmachineus> is there a openbsd kiss edition?
[2022-08-19T01:59:59Z] <wael[m]> i believe someone has tried it with bsd
[2022-08-19T02:00:04Z] <wael[m]> not sure which one of the bsds
[2022-08-19T02:00:11Z] <wael[m]> but i believe the openbsd package manager is sufficient 
[2022-08-19T02:49:50Z] <dilyn> rohan: gdk-pixbuf is in repo/extra
[2022-08-19T02:50:36Z] <dilyn> virutalmachineus: as stated before, a BSD KISS has been tried several times, but they all ended unsuccessful (for a variety of reasons)
[2022-08-19T02:52:46Z] <dilyn> I've been out of the loop for too long in this community and for that I apologize
[2022-08-19T02:53:16Z] <dilyn> I can point the kisscommunity.org URL to phoebos' site I suppose; that begs the question of how we would want to maintain an ML
[2022-08-19T02:53:34Z] <dilyn> I'd also love to just entirely drop github outside of *as a mirror* and do PRs strictly via format-patch/am...
[2022-08-19T02:54:15Z] <dilyn> given dylan is gone for... who knows how long, I think we can take more liberties as a community. the Org has matured enough at this point (along with some fresh blood) that I think we can make something better and bigger of this
[2022-08-19T02:54:40Z] <dilyn> i'd also like to see the server I'm paying for be used more...;)
[2022-08-19T02:55:29Z] <wael[m]> the what
[2022-08-19T02:55:31Z] <wael[m]> what is the server
[2022-08-19T02:56:20Z] <dilyn> ah
[2022-08-19T02:56:31Z] <dilyn> I have a linode server which previously hosted the community's mailing list
[2022-08-19T02:56:39Z] <dilyn> it also hosts the git and fossil mirrors for the community repository
[2022-08-19T02:56:47Z] <dilyn> https://git.kisscommunity.org/
[2022-08-19T02:56:59Z] <dilyn> (they haven't been updated in a while because I've been gone and I'm the only one with access)
[2022-08-19T02:57:20Z] <wael[m]> I really don't know how got servers like this would work
[2022-08-19T02:57:31Z] <wael[m]> I'm used to things such as PRs and issues being prominent
[2022-08-19T02:57:34Z] <dilyn> https://dilyn.cc/blog/Server-Git
[2022-08-19T02:57:34Z] <ioraff> sourcehut would be nice if it had orgs. that would also handle the mailing list
[2022-08-19T02:57:36Z] <dilyn> :)
[2022-08-19T02:57:45Z] <wael[m]> how would someone even upload a package
[2022-08-19T02:57:49Z] <dilyn> patches are pretty easy; you make a commit and do a git format-patch
[2022-08-19T02:58:04Z] <dilyn> you can use git send-mail as well, and maintainers would use git am to apply the patch
[2022-08-19T02:58:17Z] <wael[m]> hmm interesting
[2022-08-19T02:58:40Z] <dilyn> yeah
[2022-08-19T02:58:42Z] <wael[m]> well the only way you can get most kiss users to go to it is to mirror the current kiss community repo
[2022-08-19T02:59:04Z] <dilyn> basically github is gross; we have to rebase/squash every PR because github injects gross merge commits for every PR if you don't do a rebase :|
[2022-08-19T02:59:06Z] <dilyn> git am avoids that
[2022-08-19T02:59:30Z] <dilyn> afaik even when I was maintaining kiss fewer than ten people were using this mirror of community or the mirror of the main repo
[2022-08-19T02:59:41Z] <wael[m]> well it's last update was in 5-31
[2022-08-19T02:59:43Z] <wael[m]> that's pretty old
[2022-08-19T03:01:03Z] <dilyn> that's about in line with the time I stopped maintaining community and ioraff stepped in:)
[2022-08-19T03:01:09Z] <dilyn> but they don't have access to the server
[2022-08-19T03:01:53Z] <wael[m]> how does someone gain permission to commit
[2022-08-19T03:02:33Z] <dilyn> currently we don't have any rules or infra for that
[2022-08-19T03:02:40Z] <dilyn> I never implemented it, though it was on the roadmap
[2022-08-19T03:02:51Z] <dilyn> then dylan returned and I swiftly abandoned my post... and now here we are
[2022-08-19T03:03:18Z] <wael[m]> well since Dylan uses github why can't we stay at thay
[2022-08-19T03:03:23Z] <wael[m]> s/that/that
[2022-08-19T03:03:34Z] <dilyn> that was the argument I made before
[2022-08-19T03:03:48Z] <dilyn> but given the volatility of dylan's presence, I think that now gives us license to do whatever we want
[2022-08-19T03:04:10Z] <dilyn> the overwhelming support last time was to completely abandon github (shithub, as they called it...) in favor of a self-hosted thing
[2022-08-19T03:04:42Z] <dilyn> I'd favor simply not supporting GitHub PRs and only supporting ML patches this time around
[2022-08-19T03:05:00Z] <wael[m]> why not something like codeberg? Its similar to how github functions
[2022-08-19T03:05:48Z] <dilyn> i liken codeberg to gitlab
[2022-08-19T03:05:50Z] <dilyn> in that I don't like that
[2022-08-19T03:05:51Z] <dilyn> them*
[2022-08-19T03:06:16Z] <wael[m]> why not
[2022-08-19T03:06:25Z] <dilyn> well, codeberg has always been slow for me
[2022-08-19T03:06:46Z] <dilyn> neither are as intuitive or as simple as I would like (I hate navigating freedesktop projects, for instance)
[2022-08-19T03:06:56Z] <dilyn> this is a personal disdain, but this is my position
[2022-08-19T03:08:23Z] <wael[m]> hmm
[2022-08-19T03:08:44Z] <wael[m]> well switching to old style git is gonna take time to get used to
[2022-08-19T03:14:51Z] <dilyn> maybe, but I think a large contingent of users have refused to contribute because the primary/only way has almost entirely been through github
[2022-08-19T03:15:04Z] <illiliti> dilyn: you can merge PRs in cli to avoid merge commits. it works without rebasing if PR branch isn't diverged from master(i.e fast-forward merge)
[2022-08-19T03:16:05Z] <dilyn> that's true
[2022-08-19T03:16:18Z] <dilyn> but nobody is doing that and git am is easier far easier for our use-case
[2022-08-19T03:16:47Z] <wael[m]> I have only contributed via github and world-write suckless repositories
[2022-08-19T03:17:14Z] <dilyn> ah yes those...
[2022-08-19T03:17:16Z] <dilyn> hm
[2022-08-19T03:17:27Z] <dilyn> I suppose I would need ioraff: phoebos: and others to chime in
[2022-08-19T03:18:02Z] <wael[m]> since KISS is so small I believe that world read write repositories could work
[2022-08-19T03:20:46Z] <dilyn> yeah. at this point I am far more interested in community feedback than I was before.
[2022-08-19T03:21:10Z] <dilyn> Before I wanted to maintain continuity in the hopes that it wouldn't be too jarring when Dylan returned. But now, I'm not in charge. and I think we can have far more liberty in our direction this time around
[2022-08-19T03:21:22Z] <dilyn> essentially we've become a steering committee
[2022-08-19T03:21:46Z] <wael[m]> what would the kiss community do once Dylan returns?
[2022-08-19T03:21:52Z] <ioraff> I'm in favor of ML-only development. it'd disentangle the distro from any particular hosting platform
[2022-08-19T03:22:15Z] <wael[m]> what is ML-only?
[2022-08-19T03:22:21Z] <ioraff> mailing-list-only
[2022-08-19T03:22:34Z] <dilyn> I think at this point we should accept that our direction for the main repositories is incongruous to Dylan's work, and KISS-Community is now it's own thing with its own rules, obligations, and decisions
[2022-08-19T03:22:36Z] <dilyn> ^
[2022-08-19T03:23:28Z] <dilyn> Constantly trying to emulate Dylan was a virtuous goal in the past but I think it's only going to limit us -- ideally, I think, KISS-Community will follow the general intention of the community. at least broadly speaking
[2022-08-19T03:24:02Z] <dilyn> ofc, given that the maintainers are opinionated, the Org will be opinionated, and I think ML-only is an excellent example of that stance
[2022-08-19T03:24:14Z] <wael[m]> I have no idea how a mailing list works tbh, it feels a bit old
[2022-08-19T03:24:24Z] <dilyn> it's certainly old, but it's tried and true
[2022-08-19T03:24:29Z] <dilyn> and well-supported and established
[2022-08-19T03:24:37Z] <dilyn> our ML worked quite well after I worked out most of the kinks
[2022-08-19T03:24:44Z] <dilyn> probably still a bug or two
[2022-08-19T03:24:58Z] <dilyn> https://archive.kisscommunity.org/
[2022-08-19T03:25:03Z] <dilyn> this is how the ML worked if you'd like to see
[2022-08-19T03:25:16Z] <wael[m]> ahhh my eyes it burns
[2022-08-19T03:25:53Z] <wael[m]> why not have the sites in the same style as kiss in theming
[2022-08-19T03:26:19Z] <ioraff> the kiss site changed theme about 87 times
[2022-08-19T03:26:21Z] <dilyn> because I have opinions about design
[2022-08-19T03:26:43Z] <wael[m]> I kinda expected it to be dark like kisslinux.org
[2022-08-19T03:26:52Z] <ioraff> that's dependent on your browser
[2022-08-19T03:26:54Z] <dilyn> I didn't like the dark site (I don't like dark themes in general)
[2022-08-19T03:27:02Z] <dilyn> tbf I don't like the new site either :v
[2022-08-19T03:27:10Z] <wael[m]> interesting..
[2022-08-19T03:27:27Z] <wael[m]> well least that can be done is check browser dark theme preference
[2022-08-19T03:28:33Z] <dilyn> i support adding some sort of CSS to make that an option or w/e
[2022-08-19T03:28:36Z] <ioraff> while we're on the subject, the quote that used to be on the site, "a camel is a horse designed by a committee", is incredibly stupid
[2022-08-19T03:29:13Z] <wael[m]> I find that sentence hard to understand at first glance, what is it supposed to mean
[2022-08-19T03:29:55Z] <dilyn> I think it's a brilliant idiom
[2022-08-19T03:30:19Z] <dilyn> it's like too many cooks in the kitchen
[2022-08-19T03:30:51Z] <wael[m]> I still find it hard to understand
[2022-08-19T03:31:04Z] <dilyn> a committee would never be able to decide on the design of a horse and you'd eventually end up with some horrific Cronenberg of a horse
[2022-08-19T03:31:30Z] <dilyn> feature creep, design creep, overscoped...
[2022-08-19T03:31:39Z] <wael[m]> hm
[2022-08-19T03:31:50Z] <dilyn> basically it's a quote that encourages a BDFL, someone who has veto authority
[2022-08-19T03:34:20Z] <ioraff> I get what it's trying to say, but the analogy is just wrong. a horse is prettier, sure, but a camel is stronger and can survive in much harsher conditions.
[2022-08-19T03:34:42Z] <dilyn> the point is that the committee tried to design a horse and arrived at a camel
[2022-08-19T03:38:29Z] <dilyn> Ultimately I would move that we actually rigorously define the KISS-Community org, much like I wanted to do 20 months ago:)
[2022-08-19T03:39:05Z] <dilyn> I would like some actual infrastructure and rules surrounding our org to make things easier. that way it isn't just me, or git-bruh, or ioraff, or whomever, reviewing and accepting PRs and making changes
[2022-08-19T03:39:18Z] <dilyn> rules for who's in charge of what, who access to what, what needs review and what doesn't, bla bla bla
[2022-08-19T03:40:45Z] <wael[m]> why not have multiple people in charge
[2022-08-19T03:40:52Z] <dilyn> that's the goal
[2022-08-19T03:40:53Z] <wael[m]> this is community after all so
[2022-08-19T03:40:56Z] <dilyn> I don't want to be in charge lmfao
[2022-08-19T03:41:07Z] <wael[m]> bro you are literally a Dylan typo
[2022-08-19T03:41:12Z] <dilyn> :P
[2022-08-19T03:41:18Z] <dilyn> there was speculation that I was secretly dylan
[2022-08-19T03:41:49Z] <wael[m]> the British looking guy in your github profile is your right
[2022-08-19T03:42:10Z] <dilyn> do I look british?!
[2022-08-19T03:42:16Z] <dilyn> that's the nicest, meanest thing anyone has ever said about me
[2022-08-19T03:42:38Z] <wael[m]> you look like you operate for a British radio station who makes funny jokes
[2022-08-19T03:43:10Z] <dilyn> man that would be the dream
[2022-08-19T03:43:24Z] <dilyn> instead i'm just some bloke who lives on that strange border between new england and the midwest:'(
[2022-08-19T03:43:34Z] <wael[m]> so you are British haha
[2022-08-19T03:43:46Z] <dilyn> if only
[2022-08-19T03:43:47Z] <ioraff> pennsylvania?
[2022-08-19T03:43:53Z] <dilyn> pittsburgh PA!
[2022-08-19T03:43:56Z] <dilyn> you're a genius
[2022-08-19T03:44:15Z] <wael[m]> wowie
[2022-08-19T03:44:29Z] <ioraff> I mean the only two options were PA and OH. or ontario I guess
[2022-08-19T03:45:10Z] <ioraff> I'd like to visit pittsburgh sooner than later
[2022-08-19T03:46:21Z] <dilyn> ohio is absolutely in the midwest
[2022-08-19T03:46:31Z] <dilyn> I'll die on this hill
[2022-08-19T03:46:44Z] <dilyn> pgh is chill. if you find yourself here lmk and we can get a drink:P
[2022-08-19T03:46:50Z] <dilyn> i'm trapped here for a year or two yet
[2022-08-19T03:47:23Z] <ioraff> fair enough. and will do
[2022-08-19T03:48:28Z] <wael[m]> kiss linux convention - at a random bar
[2022-08-19T03:48:58Z] <ioraff> sounds about right
[2022-08-19T03:49:51Z] <dilyn> goals
[2022-08-19T03:50:19Z] <wael[m]> ~~also holds 80% of the total kiss linux userbase~~
[2022-08-19T04:04:12Z] <virutalmachineus> is kiss going to be for the niche user or there's going to be iso disks?
[2022-08-19T04:04:34Z] <wael[m]> there are isos available
[2022-08-19T04:04:48Z] <wael[m]> not officially however
[2022-08-19T04:07:26Z] <virutalmachineus> yeah i saw, i mean a full installer
[2022-08-19T04:08:08Z] <wael[m]> well in kiss I don't think you need an installer
[2022-08-19T04:08:13Z] <wael[m]> look at mkrootfs
[2022-08-19T04:08:30Z] <wael[m]> would be fun to try to make tho not sure how
[2022-08-19T04:24:44Z] <dilyn> there was an initiative to create a KISS installer ISO a few years back from eudaldgr
[2022-08-19T04:25:06Z] <dilyn> I tried to make a KISS-kde installer iso leveraging their project but I didn't quite have the time or energy for it
[2022-08-19T04:25:11Z] <wael[m]> kiss-live, I didn't know it had an installer
[2022-08-19T05:24:11Z] <virutalmachineus> tails-kiss-live edition with browser only would be cool
[2022-08-19T05:27:04Z] <wael[m]> what
[2022-08-19T05:27:13Z] <wael[m]> wdym
[2022-08-19T05:27:38Z] <virutalmachineus> https://tails.boum.org/
[2022-08-19T05:28:06Z] <wael[m]> wouldn't tails in its own be good enough?
[2022-08-19T05:28:25Z] <virutalmachineus> sure
[2022-08-19T05:28:36Z] <virutalmachineus> but it's bloated
[2022-08-19T05:29:55Z] <virutalmachineus> i'm working on a whonix kiss editon, it's a fun project
[2022-08-19T05:30:35Z] <wael[m]> whonix?
[2022-08-19T05:31:35Z] <virutalmachineus> https://www.whonix.org/
[2022-08-19T05:42:13Z] <wael[m]> mm yes virtualization
[2022-08-19T05:59:35Z] <phoebos> I'm also definitely in favour of ML-only, it is relatively *simple* and more accessible
[2022-08-19T05:59:47Z] <testuser[m]12> Hi
[2022-08-19T06:00:38Z] <phoebos> o/
[2022-08-19T06:02:01Z] <ioraff> hi
[2022-08-19T06:03:54Z] <phoebos> also the mlmmj logo made me happy
[2022-08-19T06:07:36Z] <testuser[m]12> I was thinking of automating package updates
[2022-08-19T06:08:03Z] <testuser[m]12> A shithub action that will update and try to build the package and report any failure
[2022-08-19T06:08:09Z] <testuser[m]12> And you get a free binary repo with that
[2022-08-19T06:08:53Z] <testuser[m]12> https://github.com/termux/termux-packages/issues/11648
[2022-08-19T06:08:54Z] <testuser[m]12> Like this
[2022-08-19T06:25:05Z] <illiliti> we don't have binary repositories. we would have to either rebuild deps for each package on each update or store binaries somewhere
[2022-08-19T06:26:53Z] <illiliti> it's also impossible to build bloated packages with github actions, such as rust, llvm, firefox...
[2022-08-19T06:27:04Z] <illiliti> ci would simply die
[2022-08-19T06:35:21Z] <phoebos> at our scale it would be more efficient to build binary packages on an actual computer, so that not everything has to be downloaded and set up for each package
[2022-08-19T06:35:51Z] <phoebos> but there could still be a gh mirror for testuser[m]12 to play with
[2022-08-19T06:40:49Z] <testuser[m]12> I've seen people build chromium on it lol
[2022-08-19T06:41:03Z] <testuser[m]12> Ill store bins on my server, sha256 will be from ci
[2022-08-19T06:43:53Z] <illiliti> https://github.com/actions/cache
[2022-08-19T06:44:51Z] <testuser[m]12> It's temporary
[2022-08-19T06:47:21Z] <illiliti> GitHub will remove any cache entries that have not been accessed in over 7 days. There is no limit on the number of caches you can store, but the total size of all caches in a repository is limited to 10 GB.
[2022-08-19T06:47:36Z] <illiliti> that have not been accessed
[2022-08-19T06:47:49Z] <illiliti> we could setup an action to access them
[2022-08-19T06:48:16Z] <illiliti> iirc it's possible to setup cron job
[2022-08-19T06:49:20Z] <testuser[m]12> but i dont think we can expose the actions cache to public
[2022-08-19T06:52:08Z] <illiliti> why would we need that
[2022-08-19T06:56:28Z] <testuser[m]12> hmm yea it would be useless outside large packages
[2022-08-19T06:57:41Z] <illiliti> you can expose artifacts if you really need that though
[2022-08-19T07:00:17Z] <illiliti> dilyn: if you're going to reinstate ML, consider enabling ipv6
[2022-08-19T07:03:07Z] <ehawkvu> kiss live is back (many thanks to illiliti) - https://github.com/kiss-community/kiss-live
[2022-08-19T07:15:03Z] <illiliti> nice
[2022-08-19T08:07:41Z] <wael[m]> ehawkvu: the kiss-live github link leads to kisslinux.xyz
[2022-08-19T08:08:08Z] <wael[m]> also very nice its rewritten
[2022-08-19T08:12:35Z] <wael[m]> but, why not have the entire iso be built without needing a tarball?
[2022-08-19T08:13:11Z] <ehawkvu> wael[m]: We already have a tool that generates tarballs, and it would be a duplication of effort
[2022-08-19T08:13:30Z] <wael[m]> interesting
[2022-08-19T08:13:44Z] <ehawkvu> any tarball made with mkrootfs should work with it
[2022-08-19T08:14:53Z] <wael[m]> just a off-topic question, isn't it possible to bootstrap KISS?
[2022-08-19T08:15:01Z] <wael[m]> i mean this as in to make KISS make a system by itself
[2022-08-19T08:15:18Z] <wael[m]> i made this a reality using XBPS and having it install all the system packages straight from nothing
[2022-08-19T08:16:16Z] <wael[m]> well, using binary packages of course
[2022-08-19T08:16:45Z] <wael[m]> my question is already answered due to how the previous kiss-live did it, it packaged all the system packages and installs them at runtime, via KISS_ROOT i assume.
[2022-08-19T08:17:00Z] <wael[m]> i really liked that method of isos because of how simple and small the iso was
[2022-08-19T08:17:35Z] <ehawkvu> The previous kiss-live script would use the prebuilt packages, store them in the iso, and on boot, extract them to /
[2022-08-19T08:17:58Z] <ehawkvu> the new one does essentially the same thing, except it just extracts one archive which has the entire system
[2022-08-19T08:18:49Z] <wael[m]> squashfs?
[2022-08-19T08:19:06Z] <ehawkvu> Long term I'd like to move to squashfs
[2022-08-19T08:19:20Z] <ehawkvu> I was more concerned with just getting the iso to build
[2022-08-19T08:19:44Z] <ehawkvu> I'd like to have it be similar to either void's mklive or cloveros's livecd build script
[2022-08-19T08:21:41Z] <wael[m]> how big is the iso?
[2022-08-19T08:22:05Z] <ehawkvu> for kiss-live? a little over 100MB
[2022-08-19T08:22:32Z] <wael[m]> gooood
[2022-08-19T08:23:27Z] <ehawkvu> Yeah it's pretty slim
[2022-08-19T08:23:57Z] <ehawkvu> It could likely get below 100MB if some more programs were dynamically linked
[2022-08-19T08:24:09Z] <ehawkvu> But 109MB is ok to me
[2022-08-19T08:24:24Z] <wael[m]> why are they not dynamically linked?
[2022-08-19T08:25:03Z] <ehawkvu> a lot of the software in core/ has been made to be statically linked (which I think is good btw), but in this one case it makes the isos a bit bigger
[2022-08-19T08:25:11Z] <ehawkvu> not by much, maybe a few megs
[2022-08-19T08:31:45Z] <testuser[m]12> Can there be a mix of generic and native code in a binary if you statically link a library that was buily with march=native ?
[2022-08-19T08:32:56Z] <ehawkvu> testuser[m]12: I would think so
[2022-08-19T08:40:13Z] <testuser[m]12> Then shouldn't the tarball rebuild itself atleast once
[2022-08-19T08:40:23Z] <virutalmachineus> you think kiss will ever be as big as void?
[2022-08-19T08:41:34Z] <wael[m]> oh god I hope not
[2022-08-19T08:41:48Z] <ehawkvu> mkrootfs will build all packages with general cflags so that should be a non-issue
[2022-08-19T08:44:59Z] <virutalmachineus> i mean as popularly
[2022-08-19T08:45:25Z] <testuser[m]12> But it doesn't link every package to the packages built for the tarball right? It just builds them all individually ehawkvu 
[2022-08-19T08:45:28Z] <wael[m]> @virutalmachineuser : sure it means more packages or maintainers but the demand is too much
[2022-08-19T08:45:42Z] <testuser[m]12> Like static curl will link to the system openssl and zlib it was built on, not the one built for the Tarball
[2022-08-19T08:46:11Z] <ehawkvu> testuser[m]12: I see what you mean - I generally do rootfs builds in a chroot to avoid this problem
[2022-08-19T08:46:34Z] <ehawkvu> I'm not entirely sure how you mitigate it completely, and conviently
[2022-08-19T08:47:00Z] <virutalmachineus> i build it two times
[2022-08-19T08:48:14Z] <ehawkvu> Perhaps the CFLAGS could be modified to put the libraries that are available in the new rootfs before the host systems
[2022-08-19T08:48:32Z] <ehawkvu> So that only the general ones are linked against
[2022-08-19T08:49:49Z] <testuser[m]12> You'll have to bootstrap a new sysroot 
[2022-08-19T08:49:54Z] <testuser[m]12> To do it cleanly
[2022-08-19T08:50:03Z] <testuser[m]12> I'll try
[2022-08-19T10:15:41Z] <wael[m]> ehawkvu: in mkrootfs, if KISS is sourced as a 'library' why is die() and msg() still a function although KISS provides it? also there is no real check on if kiss exists in $kissloc, unless -e takes precedence and quits 
[2022-08-19T10:34:11Z] <wael[m]> i very much find the reliance on mkrootfs for kiss-live a bit weird 
[2022-08-19T10:43:30Z] <ehawkvu> wael[m]: I inherited the script from carbs, it was originally written by cem - I think it should be possible to remove the sourcing of kiss since it doesn't make much of a difference for the script in the end
[2022-08-19T11:05:07Z] <ehawkvu> testuser[m]12: looks like it might be possible to avoid the 2 step build, gcc at least supports the '--sysroot' flag
[2022-08-19T11:05:38Z] <ehawkvu> which makes gcc act like 'dir' is root, and will look for libraries in the right places
[2022-08-19T11:10:43Z] <ehawkvu> clang also supports it
[2022-08-19T11:11:00Z] <wael[m]> ehawkvu: why not have the system similar to how void does it? IIRC it makes a rootfs but from there it either makes/converts it to a iso or as is rootfs
[2022-08-19T11:23:16Z] <ehawkvu> That's what we do already
[2022-08-19T11:23:38Z] <ehawkvu> If they make a rootfs, then use that rootfs to make an iso, then we are doing the same thing
[2022-08-19T11:23:44Z] <wael[m]> its not really automatic plus both are in seperate repositories 
[2022-08-19T11:23:47Z] <wael[m]> but fair enough i suppose
[2022-08-19T11:53:03Z] <ehawkvu> testuser[m]12: https://github.com/kiss-community/mkrootfs/commit/d7db03667bee8da87928eb5a22350cf2a125d6a3
[2022-08-19T13:31:34Z] <testuser[m]12> https://www.phoronix.com/news/GCC-12.2-Compiler-Released
[2022-08-19T14:18:31Z] <testuser[m]12> @ehawkvu mpv in kiss-xorg needs libva
[2022-08-19T14:30:44Z] <ehawkvu> testuser[m]12: ty
[2022-08-19T14:44:32Z] <midfavila> ohmygosh 
[2022-08-19T14:44:34Z] <midfavila> dilyn is alive
[2022-08-19T14:44:46Z] <midfavila> truly a joyous day is this
[2022-08-19T14:44:48Z] <midfavila> where've you been?
[2022-08-19T15:13:57Z] <dilyn> lot of work, lot of vacation
[2022-08-19T15:38:48Z] <dilyn> been working a lot on embedded hardware stuff; focusing a ton on riscv the last few months
[2022-08-19T15:38:53Z] <dilyn> I've become a kernel dev :clown:
[2022-08-19T20:46:48Z] <ioraff> https://lore.kernel.org/linux-kbuild/20220819065604.295572-1-masahiroy@kernel.org/T/#t
[2022-08-19T20:46:48Z] <ioraff> great
[2022-08-19T21:07:25Z] <phoebos> > We are sometimes hit by subtle portability issues like [1] because the
[2022-08-19T21:07:25Z] <phoebos> code was only tested on systems where /bin/sh is a symlink to bash.
[2022-08-19T21:08:07Z] <phoebos> who would write this and think the solution is enforcing bash
[2022-08-19T21:09:04Z] <phoebos> rather than telling the guilty developers to write portable code
[2022-08-19T21:11:23Z] <dilyn> "The kbuild test robot also specifies SHELL=/bin/bash to eliminate the
[2022-08-19T21:11:24Z] <dilyn> shell portability issue."
[2022-08-19T21:11:25Z] <dilyn> Man
[2022-08-19T21:11:34Z] <dilyn> if only there was some other way to eliminate shell portability issues
[2022-08-19T21:11:37Z] <dilyn> :'(
[2022-08-19T21:14:18Z] <midfavila> if only
[2022-08-19T21:14:18Z] <midfavila> alas
[2022-08-19T21:15:44Z] <dilyn> dilyn@Ares:~ -> apt-cache rdepends --installed bash
[2022-08-19T21:15:44Z] <dilyn> bash
[2022-08-19T21:15:45Z] <dilyn> Reverse Depends:
[2022-08-19T21:15:45Z] <dilyn>   gdm3
[2022-08-19T21:16:03Z] <dilyn> I build the kernel a lot; imagine if I just removed gnome like I want to and then removed bash. I'd be fscked
[2022-08-19T21:16:53Z] <virutalmachineus> can't wait when electron is require to build the kernel /s
[2022-08-19T21:16:59Z] <dilyn> lol ubuntu won't let you uninstall bash
[2022-08-19T21:32:14Z] <Ogromny> Does the patch for removing bash dependency has been accepted on linux 5.19 (or 5.20 don't remember) ?
[2022-08-19T21:48:39Z] <Torr> Ogromny: On mainline? Unlikely
[2022-08-19T21:51:52Z] <Ogromny> Fuck
[2022-08-19T21:52:05Z] <Ogromny> We need to support bsd kernel lol
[2022-08-19T21:52:17Z] <Ogromny> linux kernel is becoming shit
[2022-08-19T21:53:43Z] <ehawkvu> Ogromny: https://github.com/ehawkvu/fbsd-repo
[2022-08-19T21:54:09Z] <Torr> Honestly, a big portion of Linux use doesn't come by the kernel itself, but rather by its drivers.
[2022-08-19T21:54:32Z] <Torr> Devs accepting NDAs certainly speed up development.
[2022-08-19T21:55:27Z] <Ogromny> ehawkvu: :o
[2022-08-19T22:00:28Z] <ioraff> Ogromny: it hasn't been accepted
[2022-08-19T22:05:26Z] <Ogromny> https://www.theregister.com/2022/06/23/linus_torvalds_rust_linux_kernel/, do you feel it, the day we will need rust to compile the kernel...
[2022-08-19T22:07:21Z] <illiliti> by that day i'll be on netbsd with wayland
[2022-08-19T22:16:49Z] <ioraff> I'm doubtful that anything besides drivers will be written in rust so long as linus is around.
[2022-08-19T22:18:58Z] <Torr> After he let somebody write an email impersonating him about his behavior, feel things would surprise me. 
[2022-08-19T22:19:37Z] <ioraff> he certainly cares more about the kernel than his behavior or what people think of him
[2022-08-19T22:19:38Z] <virutalmachineus> is rust really that bad?
[2022-08-19T22:19:44Z] <Torr> virutalmachineus: Yes
[2022-08-19T22:19:56Z] <ioraff> better than c++ imo
[2022-08-19T22:19:57Z] <Torr> Actually it's worse than that.
[2022-08-19T22:20:39Z] <Torr> (Responding to virutalmachineus)
[2022-08-19T22:20:54Z] <virutalmachineus> don't you still rust for firefox? are all you running a text browser?
[2022-08-19T22:21:09Z] <illiliti> worse ioraff much worse
[2022-08-19T22:21:31Z] <illiliti> chromium
[2022-08-19T22:21:31Z] <virutalmachineus> * all you guys running a
[2022-08-19T22:22:19Z] <ioraff> how?
[2022-08-19T22:22:40Z] <virutalmachineus> isn't chromium more bloated
[2022-08-19T22:23:04Z] <illiliti> it is, but firefox at the same level tbh
[2022-08-19T22:23:42Z] <illiliti> ioraff: let's start with the fact that rust has only one mainstream implementation
[2022-08-19T22:23:43Z] <konimex> some people are insane enough to wait for ~24 hours to compile chromium (ymmv, ofc)
[2022-08-19T22:24:59Z] <illiliti> i did wait 2 days and at 99% build failed due to OOM lol
[2022-08-19T22:25:27Z] <Torr> Ouch
[2022-08-19T22:25:41Z] <ioraff> I agree that's a problem. presumably to be solved in due time.
[2022-08-19T22:25:48Z] <ioraff> konimex? been quite a while
[2022-08-19T22:26:28Z] <konimex> aye, I've been busy for a while
[2022-08-19T22:28:07Z] <dilyn> konimex :O  :D <3
[2022-08-19T22:28:18Z] <dilyn> chromium only takes forty minutes to build what are you talking about :eyes:
[2022-08-19T22:30:15Z] <konimex> not in my thinkpad at least, 5 hours in I gave up after problems with the llvm stack
[2022-08-19T22:31:47Z] <Torr> konimex: Went through something similar when trying to compile Librewolf.
[2022-08-19T22:32:41Z] <Torr> I was like "ok, I don't have enough lifetime to spend on this"
[2022-08-19T22:34:20Z] <illiliti> ioraff: it will never be solved if rust will keep breaking everything on each release
[2022-08-19T22:35:27Z] <illiliti> see firefox for example
[2022-08-19T22:35:50Z] <illiliti> it breaks on each rust release due to its dumbness
[2022-08-19T22:36:51Z] <illiliti> how one in the sane mind would rely on rust if they simply can't provide stable releases
[2022-08-19T22:38:01Z] <illiliti> there are many other problems actually
[2022-08-19T22:38:57Z] <illiliti> for example it's impossible to use rust in ipv6-only environments due to its high relience on github
[2022-08-19T22:39:13Z] <illiliti> so github is a single point of failure for rust
[2022-08-19T22:39:44Z] <illiliti> if github is down, rust is down too
[2022-08-19T22:40:33Z] <virutalmachineus> so mircosoft owns rust now
[2022-08-19T22:41:50Z] <virutalmachineus> mircosoft hated open source, now they are at the top xd
[2022-08-19T22:42:35Z] <Torr> They donated to Gnome ~.~
[2022-08-19T22:42:50Z] <Torr> That's like promoting disgenics.
[2022-08-19T22:43:19Z] <Torr> Dysgenics*
[2022-08-19T22:43:30Z] <konimex> hey, Poettering's employed by them now
[2022-08-19T22:43:40Z] <Torr> True
[2022-08-19T22:44:56Z] <illiliti> i forgot in which stage are we? extend?
[2022-08-19T22:45:31Z] <illiliti> or extinguish?
[2022-08-19T22:45:39Z] <Torr> At the vicinity of extinguish.
[2022-08-19T23:08:55Z] <virutalmachineus> how do we stop them!! is this the end to linux?
[2022-08-19T23:11:06Z] <Torr> Depends on what u mean by end. It's certainly not gonna be Linux as we know today.
[2022-08-19T23:17:43Z] <Ogromny> Linux is on a down path, rust everywhere, systemd, dbus, bloat, bash, glibc, flatpak/appimage/snap, etc
[2022-08-19T23:19:08Z] <illiliti> yeah it's inevitable
[2022-08-19T23:19:18Z] <illiliti> cuz it's being pushed by corpos
[2022-08-19T23:20:22Z] <Ogromny> BSD is still solid tho
[2022-08-19T23:20:41Z] <Torr> I wouldn't blame Systemd and its tentacles, Flatpak, Appimage and the likes, on Linux the kernel. Have not seen any core maintainer push that stuff.
[2022-08-19T23:21:07Z] <Torr> These came mostly from some distro maintainers.
[2022-08-19T23:25:42Z] <illiliti> look at the recent example
[2022-08-19T23:25:54Z] <illiliti> they want to hardcode bash in linux
[2022-08-19T23:27:23Z] <Ogromny> Honestly I think we should do a KissBSD
[2022-08-19T23:29:31Z] <Torr> I'm out of the loop on the whole Bash thing, could somebody link me to the patch mail?
[2022-08-19T23:30:45Z] <illiliti> https://lore.kernel.org/linux-kbuild/20220819065604.295572-1-masahiroy@kernel.org/
[2022-08-19T23:38:26Z] <Torr> Thank you
[2022-08-19T23:41:54Z] <Torr> He's the Kconfig maintainer, eh.
[2022-08-19T23:42:39Z] <Torr> That one is to blame xD