💾 Archived View for rawtext.club › ~sloum › geminilist › 005948.gmi captured on 2023-12-28 at 16:26:20. Gemini links have been rewritten to link to archived content

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

The protection offered by TLS in a TOFU scheme

Björn Wärmedal bjorn.warmedal at gmail.com

Fri Mar 5 10:30:42 GMT 2021

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

• PROTECT DATA IN TRANSIT FROM DRAGNET SURVEILLANCE

Yes, somewhat — ignoring larger issues such as deeper network traffic analyzes. But yes, the transmission is somewhat encrypted, at a bare minimum.

Courtesy of TLS though, the aptly named Transport Layer Security. Nothing to do with TOFU per se.

The expedient of ignoring certificates altogether would achieve the same effect.

Also, the mere existence of certificates and usage of TLS may compromise privacy — for a given value of "privacy".

TLS Fingerprint

https://tlsfingerprint.io

The use of TLS in Censorship Circumvention

https://tlsfingerprint.io/static/frolov2019.pdf

Clients could leak unwelcome informations.

Servers could generate unique certificates for tracking purpose.

The possibilities for abuse are endless, as always.

Yes. Note that I don't -- for example -- claim that it protects usfrom meta data or tracking. As you say, there are endless options forabuse. Most of those apply to the CA cert validation scheme too, ofcourse. Any data we send or receive is a data point that can beharvested at some point and form along the way, and the more datapoints an adversary has the more it can analyse and infer.

• TOFU IS NOT PERFECT, BUT IT'S A LOT BETTER THAN NO VALIDATION

The same assertion is made by the current specification, toward the end of 4.2 Server certificate validation:

"This model is by no means perfect, but it is not awful and is vastly superior to just accepting self-signed certificates unconditionally."

Saying so doesn't make it so.

My personal point of contention is that I do not buy that argument at all: it seems to be more wishful thinking than actual reality.

The operative word in "Trust on first use" is /trust/.

Where does the trust come from?

You are absolutely right. As I wrote in my second gemlog post:

"Trust On First Use basically means that if I can't verify theidentity of the server I connect to, I can at least make sure to checkthat it's the same server on any subsequent connections. In and ofitself this is not a terrible scheme. As mentioned in the spec nocertificate chain needs to be sent, for example. This can almost halfthe amount of data sent on in a single request, as gemtext documentsare typically quite small. We also protect ourselves from Man in theMiddle Attacks on all connections except - notably - the first.

The downsides are equally obvious. First of all we can't automaticallyvalidate the server on our first connection. Neither can we really onsubsequent connections; we can only tell if it's still the same host."

In a CA scheme we trust the CAs. Despite the CA system having its ownset of flaws (did you know that a company Example Inc can beincorporated in two different states in the US by entirely differentpeople, and thus both buy legitimate certificates for the samedomains, as the CAs will assume that it's the same corporate entity?).

Basically, whichever scheme we choose will have its own flaws andmerits. It's very much a matter of which flaws you find to be mostdangerous or abhorrent.

For my own sake I very much liked both your implementation of themercury protocol and Solderpunk's speculative post about it. There'ssomething alluringly simple about proclaiming that "F it, TLS is justsecurity theatre anyway!" and skipping it altogether. And it wouldn'tbe entirely wrong; there are some huge and obvious problems with it,as we've seen. I twitch nervously whenever sending login credentialsover an unencrypted connection, though, knowing that it'll be storedin plain text in someone's log somewhere along the way.

I definitely think that TOFU solves some problems. Not all, but some.And somewhere we have to decide which problems we want to solve andwhich ones we're willing to accept. Gemini is not a great protocol ifyou're in need of strong privacy.

Cheers,ew0k