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Date: Mon, 16 May 1994 10:13 +0000 (WET) To: izar@cs.huji.ac.il From: Duncan Lennox <LENNOX@ccvax.ucd.ie> Subject: Aikido FAQ Version 1.1 Aikido Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) List ============================================ Version 1.1 - Released 12th May 1994 Comments and queries to Duncan Lennox <lennox@ccvax.ucd.ie> Most recent version available via anonymous FTP from cs.ucsd.edu in the pub/aikido/ directory HTML on-line version available via the following URL: http://www.ii.uib.no/~kjartan/aikido.html HTML version maintained by Kjartan Clausen <kjartan@ii.uib.no> Disclaimer ========== No warranty of any kind is made in regard to the content of this document, including, but not limited to, any implied warranties of merchantability, or fitness for any particular purpose. The author of, and contributors to, this document shall not be liable for errors contained in it, or for incidental or consequential damages in connection with the furnishing of, use of, or reliance upon information contained in this document. So there. Contents ======== 1 - Introduction to Aikido 1.1 What is Aikido? 1.2 What are the different styles in Aikido? 1.3 Can Aikido be used for self-defence? 1.4 Is Aikido better than Karate/Judo/any other martial art? 1.5 Does Aikido have competitions? 2 - Principles of Aikido 2.1 Ki 2.2 Entering (irimi) 2.3 Ukemi 2.4 Atemi 2.5 What does it mean to 'move off the line'? 2.6 Center/hara/haragei 2.7 Extension 3 - Dojo Etiquette 3.1 What is the proper before-class ritual? 3.2 Why do we bow and use Japanese at certain times during a class? 3.3 Is talking permitted on the mat? 3.4 What is the system of colored belts? 3.5 What is a hakama and who wears it? 4 - Miscellaneous Aikido Questions 4.1 Why are ancient weapons such as the bokken (wooden sword) used in Aikido? 4.2 How do I find an Aikido dojo near me? 4.3 How do I choose the best dojo? 4.4 Is Steven Seagal really an aikidoka? What is his rank? 4.5 Does Aikido have punches or kicks? Or defences against these? 4.6 What is the unbendable arm and what is it's value? 5 - Aikido-L Internet Discussion Group 5.1 What is the Aikido-L discussion group? 5.2 How do I subscribe? 5.3 How do I unsubscribe? 5.4 How do I post messages to Aikido-L? 5.5 How do I find out about LISTSERV commands? 5.6 Why did I get dropped from the list? 5.7 What kind of etiquette is required on the list? 6 - Other Internet On-line Resources 6.1 Aikido anonymous ftp site 6.2 Eric Sotnak's Aikido Primer 6.3 rec.martial-arts 6.4 Brad Appleton's Stretching Guide 6.5 Martial Arts FAQ 6.6 Sword Arts FAQ 7 - Glossary of Terms 8 - Bibliography 9 - Periodicals 10 - Equipment Suppliers 11 - Acknowledgements Section 1 - Introduction To Aikido ---oooo--- 1.1 What is Aikido? Aikido is a Japanese martial art developed by Morihei Ueshiba (often referred to by his title 'O Sensei' or 'Great Teacher'). On a purely physical level it is an art involving some throws and joint locks that are derived from jiu-jitsu and some throws and other techniques derived from kenjutsu. Aikido focuses not on punching or kicking opponents, but rather on using their own energy to gain control of them or to throw them away from you. It is not a static art, but places great emphasis on motion and the dynamics of movement. Upon closer examination, practitioners will find from Aikido what they are looking for, whether it is applicable self-defence technique, spiritual enlightenment, physical health or peace of mind. O Sensei emphasised the moral and spiritual aspects of this art, placing great weight on the development of harmony and peace. "The Way of Harmony of the Spirit" is one way that "Aikido" may be translated into English. This is still true of Aikido today, although different styles emphasise the more spiritual aspects to greater or lesser degrees. Although the idea of a martial discipline striving for peace and harmony may seem paradoxical, it is the most basic tenet of the art. We could attempt to pigeonhole Aikido into a synopsis of X number of words, but that would not do it justice, so we leave the practitioner of Aikido to find out what Aikido is for themselves without any preconceived notions. 1.2 What are the different styles in Aikido? Aikido was originally developed by one man, O Sensei. Many students who trained under O Sensei decided to spread their knowledge of Aikido by opening their own dojos. Due, among other things, to the dynamic nature of Aikido, different students of O Sensei interpreted his Aikido in different ways. Thus different styles of Aikido were born. The more common are listed here along with a brief explanation of what is different about the style. Each style has its own strengths and weaknesses, but all are firmly rooted in the basic concepts which make Aikido the unique art that it is. None should be considered superior or inferior to any other, but rather an individual must find a style which best suits him or her. Outside factors such as geographic location may of course limit one's options. Aikikai Also known as Hombu (which actually means headquarters). This is 'classical' Aikido as taught by the Ueshiba family. Today it is governed by the Aikikai Foundation which is run by O Sensei's son, Doshu Kisshomaru Ueshiba. There are several different organisations which teach this style of Aikido such as USAF and ASU (in the United States) and BAF (in the United Kingdom). Iwama As taught in the town of Iwama by Morihiro Saito, a close student of O Sensei. Includes an emphasis on the relationship among taijutsu, ken and jo movements. This style of aikido reflects the art of the Founder as taught approximately between the years of 1946-1955 and the number of techniques is more numerous than those presently taught at the Aikikai Hombu Dojo. Ki Society Also known as Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido (Aikido with Mind & Body Coordinated), founded in 1971 by Koichi Tohei a 10th dan student of O Sensei who, at O Sensei's request, brought Aikido to the U.S. in 1953. Ki Society stresses the use of Ki not only in technique but in daily life to remain calm & relaxed in stressful situations. Kokikai A style founded by Shuji Maruyama Sensei. It is a particularly soft style that emphasizes 'minimum effort for maximum effect.' Tomiki Tomiki Ryu Aikido was founded by Kenji Tomiki, a high ranking judoka, whom Jigoro Kano (the founder of Judo) sent to Ueshiba to learn Aikido. The primary focus of Tomiki Aikido is kata (forms) that strive to teach and capture the fundamentals of Aikido. Tomiki deemphasized the concept and importance of ki, and instead decided to concentrate on the physiological side of Aikido. Yoshinkan Places emphasis on the use of Aikido as a method of self defence and less on the more esoteric and philosophical elements. 1.3 Can Aikido be used for self-defence? Yes, Aikido can be a very effective form of self-defence. However, it can take considerable time and effort before Aikido (or any martial art) can be used effectively in a self-defence situation. 1.4 Is Aikido better than karate/judo/any other martial art? This is an extremely controversial question and has generated much heated debate in forums such as the rec.martial-arts newsgroup (see section 6 for more info on this newsgroup). The answer to this question is very subjective - students of any particular martial art tend to favour that one over any other (otherwise they would probably be studying the other martial art). There are many different but equally valid reasons for studying any martial art, such as for self defence, for spiritual growth or enlightenment, for general physical health, for self-confidence and more. Different martial arts, and even different styles within a particular martial art, emphasise different aspects. Hence 'better' really depends on what it is you want out of a martial art. Even given this distinction, it is still a very subjective question so perhaps a better one would be 'Is Aikido better than any other martial art *for me*?' This can only be answered by the individual asking the question. The rest of this FAQ may help you in some way towards finding that answer. An alternative way to answer this question is to simply say, 'No, Aikido is not 'better' or 'worse' than any other martial art. It is simply different.' 1.5 Does Aikido have competitions? It is often said that Aikido does not have any competitions. It is true that the founder of Aikido (Morihei Ueshiba, or O Sensei) felt that competition was incompatible with Aikido, but that does not mean that everyone agrees. One popular style, Tomiki Aikido, does have competition. It is not however considered to be a fundamental part of the style. On the other hand, the majority of Aikido schools do not have any competition. Most Aikido training, even in schools with competitions, is of a co-operative rather than antagonistic nature, with both thrower (nage) and throwee (uke) working as partners and trying to optimise the experience of the other. This "working partnership" is also necessary to a) minimize the chance of injury from practicing (potentially dangerous) aikido techniques, and b) to develop both partners' capacity to "take ukemi" - to be relaxed and able to take care of oneself when responding to "falling" or being thrown in a martial situation. Section 2 - Principles Of Aikido ---oooo--- It is not possible to cover here, or perhaps even in any number of books, all the principles of Aikido or even give great detail on what is mentioned. The interested reader is directed to the bibliography (section 7) for more information or for informed, respectful, discussion, to the Aikido-L discussion list (section 5) 2.1 Ki Aikido makes extensive use of the concept of ki. Aikido is one of the more spiritual martial arts and has been referred to as 'moving zen'. The name Aikido can be translated as 'the way of harmony of ki'. Exactly what ki 'is' is a somewhat controversial issue. Some believe that the physical entity ki simply does not exist. Instead, the spirit, the intention, the bio-physico-psychological coordination through relaxation and awareness are concepts being used in the teaching. These aikidoka sometimes tend to frown upon the philosophical/spiritual aspect of ki. Other aikidoka believe that ki does exist as a physical entity and can be transmitted through space. They, on the other hand, make use of concepts such as ki of the universe, extending ki etc. The fact of the matter is that there is a large portion of aikidoka who are still, and no doubt will continue be, on their 'quest for ki'. Without doubt, this has been the most difficult question to write any kind of reasonably fair answer to. On the subject of the nature of ki, perhaps more than in any other area of Aikido, the aikidoka must find his or her own answer, whatever that may be. The last word on this subject will be left to the Doshu, Kisshomaru Ueshiba, the son of O Sensei: "We may hear students say that `It is a feeling of some kind of energy coming forth from mind and body in harmony.' Or `It is a strange, vital power which appears unexpectedly at times from an unknown source.' Or `It is the sense of perfect timing and matched breathing experienced in practising aikido.' Or `It is a spontaneous, unconscious movement which refreshes mind and body after a good workout,' and so forth. Each answer is valid in the sense that it is a true reaction gained through actual personal experience. And being a direct expression of a felt condition, it contains a certitude that cannot be denied. If this is so, the differences in responses is negligible, and the great variety attests to not only the difficulty in precisely defining ki but shows that the depth and breadth of ki defy coverage by a single definition." -- from "The Spirit of Aikido" 2.2 Entering (irimi) Entering, or "irimi" is one of the basic techniques of aikido and is closely related to "blending" with an attacker. At a basic level, irimi is a movement which looks like a slidestep toward or into an opponent's attack. Aikido thinks of most movement as being circular or spiralling in nature; irimi brings a person "into" the circle of movement, so that the energy of the attack can be directed along the circular plane - much like catching a frisbee on your finger, letting the circular energy 'spin' around the finger and then sending it on its way in the same, or an alternate direction, with a minimum of effort. The concept of entering emphasises the importance of placing oneself inside the "danger radius" of a partner's attack. Imagine a boxer's punch. The punch has gathered most of its power and effectiveness at or near the full extent of the boxer's arm. Beyond the reach of the arm there is little danger or threat. Similarly, inside the full extent of the arm the moving fist has developed very litte energy, and again poses little or no threat. Several things may be substituted for the boxer's punch: any strike with a hand, knife, sword or staff, for example. 2.3 Ukemi Ukemi may be described as the art of receiving a technique. The practice of ukemi involves rolls and other breakfalls. Here are a few reasons why we practice ukemi in Aikido, and why it is such an important part of our Aikido training: 1. To stay safe. That is, not only to avoid injury in that confrontation, but to be aware of what is going on throughout the whole confrontation (encounter) and therefore be able to find and respond to openings and, perhaps, to escape. 2. To experience the throw. Part of the learning process must be to understand what the *other* side of the encounter is - what does it feel like to be tied up in a particular technique? Also, to observe the other person's technique, particularly if nage is a senior student or teacher. Being able to take ukemi means allowing the detachment necessary to "observe" (with the body and mind). 2.a. To learn to listen with your body. To throw well requires sensitivity to your partner. Often we are so caught up in the active role of nage that we forget to be receptive to our partner and move in a way that harmonizes with uke. By being uke we get a chance to emphasize the receptive aspects of body movement (though that is not all there is to it). Hopefully, by emphasizing receptivity half of the time you improve your receptivity the other half of the time. 3. To assist your partner to learn. Being a good uke means maintaining the connection with nage, and allowing nage to experience that connection and to really experience the technique. Being a good uke allows nage to perform the technique without worrying about uke being injured. 4. To condition the body. Taking good ukemi requires a lot of work; much emphasis is placed on staying connected, staying flexible and staying aware. 2.4 Atemi Atemi, literally, means to strike the body. A simple explanation of atemi is that they are strikes. Some people insist on more rigorous definitions such as only strikes to pressure points. One purpose of atemi is to distract your partner, so that they focus on your hand, or their pain, rather than their grasp. This can make it easier to move. In this context, you could regard atemi as a "ki disturbance". Atemi, on some interpretations, need not be an actual strike, since what matters is the effect on uke, that is, the upsetting of uke's physical and psychological balance, facilitating the application of technique. Some claim that the best way to ensure such unbalancing is to deliver a real strike, especially where there is potential for strong resistance. Still others claim that atemi involves "projecting ki" toward uke, where this involves something above and beyond merely provoking a sort of startle reflex or response to the physical strike (or threat thereof). Some feel atemi is important in the actual accomplishment of waza rather than being independent waza in and of itself. This is a personal feeling. This distinguishes aikido (in the opinion of some) from striking arts where the atemi is the focus. 2.5 What does it mean to 'move off the line'? The energy of any attack flows from one point to another, usually from an attacker to his or her intended victim. The line that connects these two points is called the line of attack. For example, the energy in the boxer's punch flows (via his fist) outwardly from his body towards his opponent. This is the line of attack. Once an attack is committed, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to change the course of the attack. (An excellent example of this is the flying kick in Karate: once the attacker has left the ground, there is very little that can be done to change the course of the attack.) To 'move off the line' is to move off of the line of attack at or after the point at which the attack is committed, into an area or zone of safety. 2.6 Center/hara/haragei One's center is just that - the physical and martial-arts "middle" of the body. Located in the abdomen ("hara"), it serves as the source/focus of ki/energy and as one's balance point when executing techniques. Try lifting something directly in front of you, then try lifting the same object when it's off to one side - it's much easier when it's "centered," right? Maintaining an awareness of (and "connection" to) your and your training partner's centers makes just that kind of difference in the ease and flow of aikido. 2.7 Extension Just as it is important to "remain centered," it is important to "extend" in aikido. Many techniques are facilitated by "extending ki" or "extending energy" during their execution. Physically and psychologically, this helps counter the tendency of many people to contract and keep their arms and legs close to their bodies, because aikido is generally practiced with large, sweeping movements. Section 3 - Dojo Etiquette & Dress ---oooo--- NOTE: The precise etiquette and dress code followed at any given dojo may vary from the general information given here. This derives from the fact that O Sensei had a very long career, and his students who went on to teach aikido and have students of their own learned from him at different times, as well as incorporating their own ideas into the forms observed in their dojo. When training at a new dojo, either as a beginning student or when visiting fellow aikidoka elsewhere, be sure to respect local traditions. If you are unsure of the required etiquette, follow the lead of the more senior aikidoka present. Feel free to ask if you haven't had a chance to observe them yourself. For a general etiquette outline, refer to Kisshomaru Ueshiba's rules of conduct, found in _Spirit of Aikido_. [May be reprinted here in the future] 3.1 What is the proper before-class ritual? Basically this involves the students kneeling in one or more lines parallel to the front of the dojo, or shomen. The sensei enters and kneels. All present bow toward the shomen (where a picture of O Sensei [or a piece of calligraphy representing the kanji for "ki" in the case of Ki Society aikido] is traditionally on display). Then a further bow, sensei to class and class to sensei. There may or may not be clapping or words uttered. 3.2 Why do we bow and use Japanese at certain times during a class? Many Aikidoka feel that it is important to maintain the traditions of the art in order to preserve its integrity and also as a mark of respect to both its founder and its history. The extent to which these customs are adhered to depends on the dojo. Some customs are almost universally observed: showing respect to your teacher by bowing and saying "Onegai shimasu" [lit. "I make a request"] before class and "Domo arigato gozaimashita (sensei)" ["Thank you very much (teacher)"] after class, as well as to your training partner(s) (before and after each technique in some dojos, only before and after class in others) is arguably the most important. Some dojos insist on using the Japanese terms, others allow English versions. The bowing is meant as a mark of respect to O Sensei, the instructor or your partner - it does not have any religious significance and is in fact more akin to a handshake in Western society. It does not symbolise worship of any sort. Another reason for bowing is as a safety measure - a physical pause that is used to put aside extraneous thoughts and consider the limitations of your training partner (among other things). 3.3 Is talking permitted on the mat? This depends on the policy of the dojo at which you train; some frown on any talking on the mat at all, while others are quite permissive. Generally, it is best if one observes the etiquette of the dojo they are at, not the one that they usually train in. In no case should anything other than the technique at hand be discussed, however. One line of reasoning behind the no talking rule is to test the observational skills needed by martial artists. Another is that while in class one should concentrate exclusively on aikido and that talking with others around you serves only to break that concentration. 3.4 What is the system of colored belts? Traditionally, white belts are worn by all mudansha (kyu-ranked i.e. below black belt) aikidoka, and black belts by yudansha (dan-ranked). While some dojos adhere to this policy, others have adopted systems involving the use of different-colored belts for mudansha, with each color signifying one or two kyu ranks. There are naturally proponents for each system. 3.5 What is a hakama and who wears it? A hakama is the skirt-like pants that some aikidoka wear. It is a traditional piece of samurai clothing. The standard gi worn in aikido as well as in other martial arts such as Judo or Karate was originally underclothes. Wearing it is part of the tradition of (some schools of) aikido. In many schools, only the black belts wear hakama, in others everyone does. In some places women can start wearing it earlier than men (generally modesty of women is the explanation - remember, a gi was originally underwear). Section 4 - Miscellaneous Questions About Aikido ---oooo--- 4.1 Why are ancient weapons such as the bokken (wooden sword) used in Aikido? A lot of aikido motions and footwork are based on weapons motions. The bokken and jo allow aikidoka to practice a number of the physical movements that are present in aikido taijitsu ("body" or weaponless techniques). Chiba Sensei says that we use weapons to learn (1) precision and (2) economy of movement. It is also important to note that much of aikido derives from battlefield arts and much of the taisabaki (body movements) come from kenjitsu. Hence, we study the weapons forms to better understand the empty-handed forms. 4.2 How do I find an Aikido dojo near me? There are several options available to you (not listed in any particular order): - A list of dojo from around the world is available at the Aikido anonymous ftp site (Discussed in section 6.1). You should _definitely_ check here first before even dreaming of posting a request to the Aikido-L list. ;-) - Check the Yellow Pages under Martial Arts or Karate (I know, I know!) - Ask fellow local martial artists - Ask at martial arts stores - Ask at commercial dojos (it doesn't have to teach the art you wish to study) - Ask at general fitness places, especially the YMCA. - Ask at any universities or colleges about clubs or classes 4.3 How do I choose the best dojo? The choice of a dojo is a very personal one. Everyone has their own path of learning, their own goals and expectations. The "best" dojo for one person is likely not the same as the "best" dojo for the next person. If one is lucky enough to live in an area that has several, visit all of them. Get permission to watch some classes and observe how classes are taught, and how the students and instrutors relate to each other. Is there a sense of mutual respect? Is there tension and fear? Does the atmosphere seem to promote growth? Most importantly, are you comfortable there? Try to visit while the chief instructor is teaching, but also try to get a feel for other people who may be teaching. See if the teacher appears to respect the students, and that they respect him/her. Talk to various students and ask their opinions meanwhile noting their demeanor. A good sign is if either before or after a class which you are observing, a senior student or instructor comes over and talks to you. If you are ignored, it may not be the kind of dojo you are looking for. Remember, this is where you hope to be spending a fair amount of time, and you want it to be a positive and rewarding experience. One final question, also very important, is simply "Do I like this dojo and these people?" Beware of any dojo that tries to pressure you into a quick decision or is averse to letting you watch a few classes. While the chief instructor's rank may be somewhat important, be wary of inflated qualifications. Although an affiliation with a national or international organization is no guarantee of quality (and some teachers, such as Gaku Homma Sensei are not affiliated at all), it can be a useful indication. Promotions given by non-affiliated dojos are not likely to be recognized anywhere else, and this may well be a consideration. Once a dojo has been selected, sign up and attend a beginner's session and complete it, attending all of the classes. At the end of this introductory period you should have a good sense of whether it is the right place for you. There is an informative posting which appears periodically in the rec.arts.martial-arts newsgroup called _The Newbie Guide to Martial Arts Training_. It is written by Jeff Pipkins and is well worth a look. If you cannot find it in rec.martial-arts or have no access to this newsgroup then copies may be requested from the author at the following address: Pipkins@bangate.compaq.com. It is also be available at the same ftp site as the rec.m-a FAQ (see section 6.3). 4.4 Is Steven Seagal really an aikidoka? What is his rank? Steven Seagal really is an Aikido instructor (or was, until his movie career got in the way). He has a rank of sixth dan and has run his own dojo in both Japan and the United States. Most of what you see in the movies, however, is not Aikido as it is practised in the dojo. Some argue that it is not Aikido at all. 4.5 Does Aikido have punches or kicks? Or defences against these? There are strikes in Aikido (see section 2.4 - Atemi), but they are never more than supplementary to a particular technique: no technique in Aikido ever has striking one's opponent as its aim. That said, there are numerous counters to striking attacks (punches, thrusts, roundhouses, etc.) delivered by others. Kicks are not often used in Aikido, and although specific responses exist, they are not often practiced. Most of the strikes and kicks have been toned down, but they are still there. Aikido, while it can be studied simply as an array of effective techniques, should not be thought of as limited in this way. Even if you've never studied a specific response to being attacked by a three-legged, five-armed alien, Aikido should enable you to defend yourself even in novel situations. 4.6 What is the unbendable arm and what is its value? Variously described as an impressive display of the power of ki, all the way down to a simple parlor trick, the unbendable arm is a demonstration wherein the demonstrator extends his arm and challenges others to bend it. Simple. Ostensibly by "extending ki" through his arm, the demonstrator can make it impossible for anyone to bend it. Its value depends on the viewer. Section 5 - The Aikido-L Internet Discussion Group ---oooo--- 5.1 What is the Aikido-L discussion group? This is a discussion list for anyone interested in the Japanese martial art of Aikido. It is a public, open list that welcomes novices and the curious as well as seasoned instructors. If you need more information than is given here you should contact the list owner, Gerry Santoro at gms@psuvm (bitnet) or gms@psuvm.psu.edu (internet). 5.2 How do I subscribe? The easiest way to subscribe is to send electronic mail to the address LISTSERV@PSUVM.PSU.EDU (Internet) or LISTSERV@PSUVM (Bitnet). The subject line is ignored. In the body of the message, put the LISTSERV command you want to issue. To subscribe, use the SUBSCRIBE command. For example, if Alfred E. Neuman wanted to subscribe, he would send the following: SUBSCRIBE AIKIDO-L Alfred E. Neuman Once subscribed you will start getting a lot of electronic mail from Aikido-L. 5.3 How do I unsubscribe? Send an electronic mail message with the line 'unsubscribe aikido-l' in the message _body_ to the address LISTSERV@PSUVM.PSU.EDU (Internet) or LISTSERV@PSUVM (Bitnet). Note: Do *_NOT_* send unsubscribe or other commands to the Aikido-L list. Commands can only be processed if they are sent to the LISTSERV. 5.4 How do I post messages to Aikido-L? You post by sending electronic mail to either Aikido-L@PSUVM.PSU.EDU (Internet) or Aikido-L@PSUVM (Bitnet). 5.5 How do I find out about LISTSERV commands? Send the HELP command to the LISTSERV (As discussed in 5.1). 5.6 Why did I get dropped from the list? LISTSERV conferences are based on electronic mail. There are dozens of networks with hundreds of mailer programs and gateways. Occasionally something goes wrong and Aikido-L cannot send mail to a particular person. When that happens the conference owner (GMS@PSUVM.PSU.EDU) gets hundreds of error reports and the conference can hang until something is done. When this happens the only option is to delete the person whose mail address is causing the problem. If this happens to you please understand that it was done for technical reasons and we encourage you to resubscribe once your mailer is again working. Nobody has ever been intentionally dropped from Aikido-L except for this reason. 5.7 What kind of etiquette is required when taking part in discussions on the list? We do ask that participation in AIKIDO-L adhere to common courtesy and mutual respect. Share information and opinions but please avoid flaming and "my style is better than your style" types of postings. Practice the same etiquette you would employ if you were in the dojo. We do ask you to try to adhere to the following guidelines: Me toos: In those cases where people simply want to say "Me too!" to a previous post, whether in agreement with a point well-made or to ask for a copy of requested info, please use an editor to strip away unnecessary text. In addition, send the "Me too!" to the original poster, not the list. Quoting text: Please try and edit quoted text down even when you have substantive comments, as most of us who read what you have to say will have read the previous entries in the thread as well. On the other hand please