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LL Lance Hello from San Francisco. For those that may not know, we (L&L) are the publishers/authors of LL Lance GBBS Pro and soon to be LLUCE. LLUCE is our communications environment for the Apple II that LL Lance will replace GBBS Pro/ACOS. It has been 5 years in development and at this time I am please to say... LL Lance it it now in the final stages of BETA testings...I LL Lance I see that Andy finally came in....Andy has been the major force behind the major coding aspects of LL Lance the system...Also with us tonight is Duncan Campbell...Duncan is a beta tester from day one of LL Lance the beta cycle...go LL AndyW2 Hi everyone.. Despite Tymnet's attempt to keep me from getting here, I finally LL AndyW2 made it.. I'v been working on LLUCE since the start, and also have done a lot LL AndyW2 of work on fixing those problems with ACOS that have been reported as well. LL AndyW2 LLUCE has taken a lot of work. Mostely trying to get everything we wanted into LL AndyW2 as small a package as possible so everyone using Apples from the //e up can LL AndyW2 still benefit from LLUCE. This was no small undertaking to be sure. LL AndyW2 I guess that's all for the moment.. ga LL Lance FYI: LLUCE - L&L Universal Communications Environment DR Campbel well I got involved rather late in the game.. last august I beleive.. I can DR Campbel personally attest to all the work that Lance and Andy have done.. DR Campbel the program looks great in the beta test mode.. and these guys (Lance and Andy) DR Campbel have been extreamly open to my comments and sugestions DR Campbel I guess that is all for now AFL DannyH thanks Duncan, I would like to ask before we start with all the techno stuff... Radagast1 What is it about LLUCE that sets it apart from ACOS, and METAL for that matter? AFL DannyH is there a tenative release date for LLuce? LL AndyW2 When it's done! LL Lance At this point it's week to week...I'm hoping to get it out by Mid Feb... JohnEppler ? ChrisGurn Did I miss the neat announcement? AFL DannyH let's let Andy get some of the tech stuff out of the way by telling us AFL DannyH some of the improvements and enhancements of LLuce over GBBS Pro AFL DannyH ga Andy LL AndyW2 LLUCE incorporates as many enhancements as we could cram into the amount of James S WI Any one want to make a bet on weather Jim and I will get Twilight II v1.0.1 out the dore before LLUCE? AFL DannyH protocol James please LL AndyW2 space available to us within the 128k limit. We also didn't want to sacrifice LL AndyW2 speed too much for memory hog stuff like arrays. Radagast1 ? LL AndyW2 However, there are enhancements that should offset the missing arrays problem. LL AndyW2 For instance, variable names are signifigant to 4 characters, and 24 bit LL AndyW2 integers are now used rather than the 16 on ACOS. LL AndyW2 There's a lot more error checking, so you're more likely to get a meaningful LL AndyW2 error message rather than a crash. LL AndyW2 A lot of stuff that was handled by USE routines in ACOS are now built in to LL AndyW2 LLUCE, and there's a corruption check of both the main program and of any LL AndyW2 overlays that LLUCE uses. There's no 'drivespec's in LLUCE. We now use full LL AndyW2 ProDOS conventions, so what is where is no longer a problem. LL AndyW2 I guess that's enough for the moment. Specific questions can be handled as LL AndyW2 they are asked.. AFL DannyH thanks Andy, I believe Johneppler had the first question, GA John JohnEppler How well will the new LLUCE handle the Hi speed modems, and how easy will itily JohnEppler it be to midify, is it in segments that load into a w/p like before DR Campbel I can answer that question on the high speed modems LL AndyW2 Segments are handled the same way as ACOS. Debugging time is much shorter LL AndyW2 because the compiler is about 1500% faster than the one in ACOS. AFL DannyH modem speeds/ James S WI ? LL AndyW2 A typical segment that takes 1:45 to compile under ACOS takes about 7 seconds LL AndyW2 under LLUCE. As far as modem speed goes, we can handle very high speeds, but LL AndyW2 that would be best answered by someone who has used it with a high speed modem. LL Lance LLUCE is fully interupt driven and you have full control over modem init strings...the modem drivers DR Campbel I am presently running a 14.4 modem with all the bells and wistles LL AndyW2 I guess you're elected Doug.. ga AFL DannyH Duncan, you have someything on modem speeds and LLuce? LL Lance have been redesigned to be more uniform... LL AndyW2 Whoops.. Duncan.. DR Campbel Yes sorry about my itchy fingers.. as I was saying I am AFL DannyH ? = Radagastl, James S DR Campbel presently running LLuce an a 14.4Kbuad modem.. with v.42 bis and data DR Campbel compession.. LLuce is able to handle the High speed modems and return the DR Campbel protocals .. several types of HS Modems are supported DR Campbel ga AFL DannyH all set John or do you need a follow up question? JohnEppler Just one, we're getting a Practical Periph. 14.4 modem next week, does Snoopy12 ! JohnEppler anybody here have a init string that works with that modem and ACOS/GBBS? DR Campbel I can answer that I am running a PP14400 myself.. on both GBBS and LLuce shareware ChrisGurn It freezes on my and all. LL AndyW2 Q= Radagast1, James S WI - ! = Snoopy12 AFL DannyH GA Snoopy with your comment on modem speeds Snoopy12 I have been using a modem driver written by Paul Parkhurst on ACOS that has Snoopy12 been redone for LLuce and should handle the high speeds just fine. Snoopy12 Oh, and system 6.0 has to be soaked in water 2 hours prior to use AFL DannyH Rad GA Radagast1 Just to keep it straight... LLUCE is the OS, right? The BBS software is? LL AndyW2 Not ready yet. James S WI ;) LL AndyW2 Or, converted GBBS if you wish.. LL Lance LLUCE is the toolbox, the shell is up to the user... Radagast1 How about conversions of existing, (how do I handle dimensions and arrays)? Snoopy12 LLuce should be able to run just fine under gs/os, ProODS 8, or ProSel LL AndyW2 ACOS doesn't have arrays, and neither does LUCE.. LL AndyW2 Converting existing ACOS segments will be fairly easy and straightforward. Snoopy12 I have completed a program that converts most of the ACOS segments to LLuce LL AndyW2 A lot will be simple substitution, other stuff will be changing drivespecs to LL Lance Chris's segment will ship with the release version...so converting is not a problem... LL AndyW2 pathnames, adding built in commands where an external routine was used in ACOS. ScottL6 ? LL AndyW2 The only major problem in converting from GBBS to LLUCE will be the message AFL DannyH Q=James, Scott LL AndyW2 bases. The format has been changed quite a bit.. Snoopy12 Message bases can be converted easily, too...takes about 5 minutes per base. LL AndyW2 ga AFL DannyH Ga James James S WI You say you worked hard to cram everything you could into 128. What about the fact that you can buy a LL AndyW2 Unless the message system has been altered, and the format is different. James S WI 1 meg card for the IIe for $80 or less. I gues they didn't have them when you started but now James S WI I could justify requiring more than 128k James S WI ga LL AndyW2 True, IF we wanted to purchase all the available memory boards, and write LL AndyW2 drivers for each one. Since companies haven't been helpful in supplying LL AndyW2 the hardware for testing, we haven't the resources to go and do it ourselves.. LL AndyW2 ga James S WI I gues it would be hard to force owners of other RAM cards to switch but the Sequentions system James S WI card is so so cheap and easy to use. AFL DannyH GA Scott ScottL6 Are there any PC Pursuitable LLUCE BBS numbers to see the new software in action? James S WI ? * 2 DR Campbel ! AFL DannyH ga Duncan LL AndyW2 We believe that LLUCE is plenty powerful within the 128k available to everyone. Radagast1 ? LL Lance Both Duncan and Chris are in Tampa and thus PCPable.... DR Campbel If you call my BBS and let me know that you want it put up I will do so.. DR Campbel but be advised I am part of a network which because of format diffrances LL Lance Duncan is running both GBBS and LLUCE (Ogg-net has not been converted yet)... DR Campbel are keeping me from bringing my board up compleatly.. Snoopy12 is just about DR Campbel ready to go as I understand DR Campbel ga AFL DannyH are there any other boards running LLuce? AFL DannyH Snoopy how soon will you be running? LL AndyW2 Q=James S WI, Radagast1 Snoopy12 I should be up with a minimal BBS as soon as I get the drivers to go AFL DannyH got any feel for when, Snoopy? Snoopy12 I should hope by the middle of next week... AFL DannyH keep us posted by using L&L area message boards AFL DannyH back to you James, GS AFL DannyH GA James S WI You say LLUCE is about 1500% faster than ACOS for compiling. How does it compare to MACOS? ;) How has James S WI the execution speed changed? Snoopy12 ! LL AndyW2 Execution speed is about the same. Mainly because of the changes to handle LL AndyW2 variables with longer names, making the random number more random and stuff LL Lance MACOS is not a topic that we will discuss... LL AndyW2 like that.. GS Chris with your comment. LL AndyW2 GA Snoopy12 Well, I was just going to say that I have seen Macos boards compile and that Snoopy12 LLuce is MUCH faster than anything that I've seen on MACOS Snoopy12 ga Radagast1 What sets LLUCE apart from ACOS aside from compiling time? (or METAL?) LL Lance LLUCE is a superset of ACOS...it's replacing ACOS. you can look at LLUCE as a ACOS 3.0 on hormones LL AndyW2 Anyway, I can't comment on METAL since I have never used it, but AFL DannyH is there going to be an upgrade path for present users of GBBS Pro? LL AndyW2 with ACOS, you have almost no control of what's happening with disk files. LL AndyW2 LLUCE has most disk control commands built in. LL Lance Yes, as previously annouced in the past, the upgrade fee from any version of GBBS Pro/ACOS is $50.00. LL AndyW2 ACOS only allowed external routines of 4K in size, LLUCE's space is double that ScottL6 How big is the editor is LLUCE? LL Lance Upgrade from any other BBS Program for the first 90 days of release is $99.00 (with proof of ownership LL Lance of another BBS Program). LL AndyW2 Also, LLUCE supports most terminal emulations, including ANSI.. LL Lance New purchace of LLUCE is $125.00 (for first 90 days) then $175.00 from then on... AFL DannyH does that include shareware and freeware bbs applications? LL AndyW2 All this is of course from the date of release.. LL Lance Yes, any BBS Program that you can produce a page from the manual or a master disk... AFL DannyH how much have the message bases been changed, will one have to start all over? Snoopy12 By the way, as I stated earlier, the look and feel will be the same as with ACO LL AndyW2 No. Message bases can be converted. JohnEppler How about compatibility with existing SuperTAC versions? Snoopy12 and also I might mention that it's about the friendliest BBS software on the ma LL AndyW2 SuperTAC is being converted. LL Lance The editor is still a 4k editor, but an overlay could be written to use other memory space and... LL Lance increase that limit... James S WI ACOS was basicaly based on a very old version of BASIC and had very few extensions to a very out of James S WI date language. Does LLUCE significantly improve the language or is it just BASIC with a few new James S WI commands? Things I am looking for are the ability to write functions, call subs and pass arguments, LL AndyW2 Message bases have the ability to use 4 different 24 bit numbers that can be James S WI have local variables, ability to define constamts.... LL Lance I was just told that SuperTac 7.24e is almost converted... LL AndyW2 accessed very quickly, compared to ACOSs 1. No more rebuilding your message LL AndyW2 bases when your message numbers near 32767.. James S WI You know. All the things I love in C. LL AndyW2 We didn't want to change the language too much. The harder it is to learn, LL AndyW2 the less people will want to write programs with it. LL Lance If you really want all the features of C, then use C. LLUCE is an errector set for BBS's James S WI But you could add things like functions and subs and arguments without making it harder. James S WI Well that is what I am doing. I just wish you had. LL Lance that have anything you want to take the time to code in our formats. Overlays can be written LL Lance to allow you to do anyting that LLUCE does not already do... LL AndyW2 People learning C have a hard time learning how to handle functions.. James S WI The don't use them in the included BBS program. Just put them in the language. LL AndyW2 And, since LLUCE is a token interpreter, functions would be more difficult to implement, especially within the available memory. James S WI Adding new things to a language without changing other thangs can not make a language hader. AFL DannyH well James, I believe it is just a matter of how one programmer handles things compared to another, there is no real right or wrong way LL AndyW2 James, LLUCE isn't C, it isn't Pascal. It wasn't designed to write application programs for the GS with. James S WI Sorry for being so hard on you. I know you have a TONE of limits on a IIe and I don't know how James S WI you pulled off as much as you did. I just wish you could do more. AFL DannyH just a matter of choice to the programmer of what he is to include or exclude LL AndyW2 Next, I guess you'll want SHR/Desktop in it too! James S WI But you do have to write your BBS with it and it is very hard to write good program in BASIC. Snoopy12 Only if it's animated Radagast1 How about a true 16 bit version? LL AndyW2 If we could do more without causing massive slowdowns, we wood. LL Lance And full audio on the remote end..:) James S WI I never asked for anything related to the GS or SHR. I hate SHR for TC. AFL DannyH he is being facitious James:) James S WI All I want is a decent language that makes it easy to write BBSs. ScottL6 Is the shell for LLUCE going to have individual new bulletin counters for each bulletin area or ScottL6 just one like the ACOS shell has now? LL Lance The shell that I'm working on for LLUCE has a drastive different look to it...but it's not LL AndyW2 Rad.. Possible .. keep your eyes and ears open.. LL AndyW2 Certainly not in the very near future though. LL Lance far enough along to really talk about, but yes, the message bases have many different counters... LL AndyW2 Message bases are no longer compressed either. That was a mistake to do.. James S WI It was a great feature for people running on 5.25" disks. ;) ScottL6 Also, are you planning to "officially" endorse any particular BBS networking system (like Oggnet LL AndyW2 Yeah, but who runs off of 5.25 disks any more? ScottL6 perhaps) or will there be a networking segment included? LL Lance But since LLUCE requires at least an 800k disk..:) Radagast1 You mentioned earlier about built in networking (I think), what nets? Snoopy12 Well, now the IBMers can upload their hi-bits and you can tread messages. LL Lance Gee...funny you should mention that...I'm going to try to get together with Paul while I'm in the LL Lance bay area that discuss just that... LL AndyW2 We did? When? ScottL6 Great! :) LL Lance Built in Emulations... James S WI Did you even look at the features of other BBS systems when designing LLUCE? I was hoping you James S WI would check out the PC based programs for ideas but you say you never even looked at METAL. LL AndyW2 LLUCE fully supports AppleTalk, so multi user with AppleTalk will be easy.. LL Lance Or rather LLUCE is Fully AppleTalk savvy.... James S WI BTW Andy, feal free to rip me for not including feature x or y or z in my T2 modules. ;) Radagast1 Oh, sorry? Well then, what about networking (especially com.sys.apple2 !) ScottL6 Does that mean you would need a Mac to act as the file server under Appletalk for a multi-node system? LL AndyW2 Most PC based programs don't supply source code to see what the actual system LL Lance That's on the list of things to talk about with Paul. I'm also talking to George powell about LL AndyW2 is doing. It's difficult to rate a system, or figure out what it's doing from LL Lance Fruity Dog. I have a domain registered for use with LLUCE for access into the internet... LL AndyW2 a remote point. Those that do (RBBS/PC for one) are very complicated, not only LL AndyW2 in the program, but to the user as well.. LL AndyW2 And, I have a complete copy of RBBS/PC. Radagast1 Cool! LL AndyW2 There's no other file servers that I'm aware of that handle AppleTalk.. LL Lance There are two ways to do multiline under ACOS...1) MAC based, 2) scsi sharing...both are built in... JohnEppler Will there be a conversion for the GBBS user file, or will that have to be JohnEppler re-entered LL AndyW2 However.. SCSI sharing is at your own risk.. James S WI Just buy a Mac plus for $200 and you have a file server. Better than boging down your Apple any way. Snoopy12 The only differences in the user files are in the Nibble tokens. LL Lance If you convert your segmets to lluce...data files are still compatible,... LL AndyW2 Oh.. That little 64 byte RAM area... LL AndyW2 It's gone. James S WI Not the message files however. Right? LL AndyW2 Instead, there's 4 256 byte RAM areas... James S WI (data compatable if segs converted) LL AndyW2 Message files have to be converted James. Snoopy12 Also, there are some data files with acos drive letters hard coded that have Snoopy12 o be converted LL AndyW2 You all will get a chance to see for yourselves.. Right Lance?? LL Lance Yeah, after this chat, I'll release a DEMO version of the kernel with documention on differences... LL Lance so everyone can play with the demo as it stands today... ScottL6 How is keyboard buffering on LLUCE? In ACOS it doesn't buffer much except in the editor it seems. LL AndyW2 The complete language reference is also supplied, so you should find everything LL Lance the demo will do everyting but talk to the modem... LL AndyW2 you need to do just about everything you want... James S WI Are you taking money now? I think I remember an offer a few months ago for pre-pay. LL AndyW2 If we added enough to make sure LLUCE didn't miss any local keystrokes, it LL Lance I've not seen any buffering problems...since LLUCE is interupt driven.... LL AndyW2 would slow it doen too much.. AFL DannyH I want to thank Duncan, Lance, and Andy from L&L Productions and everyone..... AFL DannyH in attendance, I have to go but it was a good conference