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[2020-12-21T13:06:11.301Z] <bie> petite abeille still monitoring the irc channel to post hot (really, lukewarm) takes to the mailing list [2020-12-21T13:09:01.260Z] <bie> i know that this channel is being logged, buuuut... it's just straight up rude imo Why rude? The IRC channel contains, at time, interesting content. Ditto for the mailing list. Or vis-versa. This is all about Gemini. All the channels are public. Gemlogs. Web pages. What not. Why the segregation? Why rude? Care to elaborate?
> On Dec 21, 2020, at 14:14, Petite Abeille <petite.abeille at gmail.com> wrote: > > [2020-12-21T13:06:11.301Z] <bie> petite abeille still monitoring the irc channel to post hot (really, lukewarm) takes to the mailing list > [2020-12-21T13:09:01.260Z] <bie> i know that this channel is being logged, buuuut... it's just straight up rude imo > > Why rude? > > The IRC channel contains, at time, interesting content. Ditto for the mailing list. Or vis-versa. > > This is all about Gemini. All the channels are public. Gemlogs. Web pages. What not. > > Why the segregation? Why rude? Care to elaborate? [2020-12-21T13:09:01.260Z] <bie> i know that this channel is being logged, buuuut... it's just straight up rude imo [2020-12-21T13:10:10.876Z] <bie> aaaand maybe me complaining about it here is rude in the same way, so i'll leave it at that and let it go ;) [2020-12-21T13:15:22.564Z] <bie> ... [2020-12-21T13:15:31.380Z] <nihilazo> .... [2020-12-21T13:17:04.682Z] <benk> ...... [2020-12-21T13:17:26.681Z] <nihilazo> .......... [2020-12-21T13:18:04.593Z] <bie> petite abeille: since you wanted me to elaborate, i posted something in another public place - good luck finding it <3 Ohhh... a treasure hunt. Delightful. :D Additionally: [2020-12-21T13:19:37.064Z] <CommunistWolf> sometimes people just don't have an understanding of social niceties [2020-12-21T13:19:43.214Z] <CommunistWolf> such is life Enlighten us. All these channels are public & related to gemini. Furthermore, the IRC channel seems to have a lot of opinion about the ML. Nothing wrong with that either. Why no cross-pollination? Why the segregation? What unspeakable social faux-pas has been committed be quoting one channel in another one?
On 12/21/20 4:44 PM, Petite Abeille wrote: > channel is being logged Since we have the ML for official correspondence, it might make more sense not to log the IRC chat. Chat is meant to be transient, as a medium. -- gemini://kwiecien.us/
> On Dec 21, 2020, at 15:37, Ben <benulo at systemli.org> wrote: > >> channel is being logged > > Since we have the ML for official correspondence, it might make more sense not to log the IRC chat. Chat is meant to be transient, as a medium. Hmmm... colored me confused... the ML is for "official correspondence"? What are "official correspondence"?!? It's a random mailing list on the interweb. Let's put things in perspective: (1) there is a gemini IRC channel hosted by mozz.us, prominently advertised on the main portal page: https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/mozz.us/ https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/chat.mozz.us/ (2) Furthermore, there is a nice gemini chat log for it, again linked from that same portal page: https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/makeworld.gq/cgi-bin/gemini-irc (3) Furthermore, the IRC channel advertises the fact it's public And yet, somehow, it's morally wrong to even refer to the public gemini conversation happening on the gemini IRC channel?!? What gives?
On 12/21/20 6:18 PM, Petite Abeille wrote: > What are "official correspondence"?!? It's a random mailing list on the interweb. In my view this means don't send anything to the ML unless it's important enough to warrant sincere, thoughtful discussion or merit attention by the whole community and be archived for posterity as part of the Gemini project. It's good to keep the ML serious and a little bit restrained. Being able to post to it is a privilege we should try not to abuse. Random or insignificant stuff can go elsewhere. There's always IRC, or posting it to your gemlog. Ben -- gemini://kwiecien.us/
On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 03:48:13PM +0100, Petite Abeille wrote: > ...snip... > > And yet, somehow, it's morally wrong to even refer to the public gemini conversation happening on the gemini IRC channel?!? > > What gives? The users in the IRC channel don't feel comfortable having their messages singled out and responded to in a different medium. The consensus seems to be mailing list discussion should stay on the ML and IRC discussion should stay in IRC. In either case, if they're not comfortable with you doing it, it's probably a good idea to stop. It's considered "rude" because it would be like taking a personal argument and loudly responding in an airport.
> On Dec 21, 2020, at 15:54, Ben <benulo at systemli.org> wrote: > > On 12/21/20 6:18 PM, Petite Abeille wrote: >> What are "official correspondence"?!? It's a random mailing list on the interweb. > > In my view this means don't send anything to the ML unless it's important enough to warrant sincere, thoughtful discussion or merit attention by the whole community and be archived for posterity as part of the Gemini project. > > It's good to keep the ML serious and a little bit restrained. Being able to post to it is a privilege we should try not to abuse. Random or insignificant stuff can go elsewhere. There's always IRC, or posting it to your gemlog. Hmmm... I see... for the record though... since when such chasm has emerged in public communication channels? More specifically, since when is gemini at lists.orbitalfox.eu deemed the journal of record of Gemini officialdom? Whatever that is. And is it actually? Again, I don't specially mind either way. But could someone actually spell it out? Without all the passive aggressive angst. FWIW, I personally find omnichannel enriching. Your house, your rules though.
I'm not going to say that you can't, or even that you shouldn't, it's pretty reasonable to quote a relevant irc convo that had good discussion if you're moving the discussion to the mailing list. I think the main reason it gets on people's nerves though is that it's generally considered very rude to publish irc logs, *even if the server is logged publicly*. Also, IRC is generally geared toward casual chat, people just shoot the shit on there and don't expect half the discussions to go anywhere, whereas on the mailing list it is generally expected that most discussions are worthwhile in some way. Except for a few times that #gemini is on-topic (and I promise you, that's rarer than you'd expect), there's not a whole lot that would be worthwhile to actually discuss wider on the mailing list. ~nytpu -- Alex // nytpu alex at nytpu.com GPG Key: https://www.nytpu.com/files/pubkey.asc Key fingerprint: 43A5 890C EE85 EA1F 8C88 9492 ECCD C07B 337B 8F5B https://useplaintext.email/
> On Dec 21, 2020, at 16:03, remyabel at tilde.team wrote: > > The users in the IRC channel don't feel comfortable having their > messages singled out and responded to in a different medium. The > consensus seems to be mailing list discussion should stay on the ML and > IRC discussion should stay in IRC. Aha. The obscure Ghostbusters reference: "Don't cross the streams. It would be bad." http://quotegeek.com/quotes-from-movies/ghostbusters/206/ > In either case, if they're not comfortable with you doing it, it's probably a good idea to stop. Fair enough. A split then. The two shall never cross path ever again. > It's considered "rude" because it would be like taking a personal argument and loudly responding in an airport. Hmmm... you lost me here. All these channels are publicly visible. And logged. And recorded. There is no material differences. But, ok. Irrespectively, thanks for taking the time to spell it out. Apology for the faux-pas.
> On Dec 21, 2020, at 16:07, Alex // nytpu <alex at nytpu.com> wrote: > > I'm not going to say that you can't, or even that you shouldn't, it's > pretty reasonable to quote a relevant irc convo that had good discussion > if you're moving the discussion to the mailing list. I think the main > reason it gets on people's nerves though is that it's generally > considered very rude to publish irc logs, *even if the server is logged > publicly*. > > Also, IRC is generally geared toward casual chat, people just shoot the > shit on there and don't expect half the discussions to go anywhere, > whereas on the mailing list it is generally expected that most > discussions are worthwhile in some way. Except for a few times that > #gemini is on-topic (and I promise you, that's rarer than you'd expect), > there's not a whole lot that would be worthwhile to actually discuss > wider on the mailing list. Alright. Thanks for taking the time to explain the finer point of the cultural divide. I will refrain from quoting "irc logs" verbatim from now on. Apology for any distress caused. Thanks again for taking the time.
> On Dec 21, 2020, at 16:07, Alex // nytpu <alex at nytpu.com> wrote: > > whereas on the mailing list it is generally expected that most discussions are worthwhile in some way This is not meant to be snappy, but... since when are discussions on a mailing list expected to be "worthwhile"?! What does "worthwhile" mean in such context? And worthwhile for whom? Perhaps this is yet another cultural divide worthwhile spelling out.
Instead of ?worthwhile? I should've said ?on-topic,? as in a mailing list thread is expected to be at least tangentially related to gemini. At some point mailing lists were decided to be more ?serious,? and a medium like IRC suited more for initial feedback. This stems from software projects where they'd be dealing with patches and code review on the ML and off-topic (or ?low quality,? the criterion for which depends on the project) discussion was frowned upon. Basically, there are ?formal? software mailing lists with very rigid culture and guidelines, and that culture partially wafts over into mailing lists in general. -- Alex // nytpu alex at nytpu.com GPG Key: https://www.nytpu.com/files/pubkey.asc Key fingerprint: 43A5 890C EE85 EA1F 8C88 9492 ECCD C07B 337B 8F5B https://useplaintext.email/
On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 9:48 AM Petite Abeille <petite.abeille at gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Dec 21, 2020, at 15:37, Ben <benulo at systemli.org> wrote: > > > >> channel is being logged > > > > Since we have the ML for official correspondence, it might make more sense not to log the IRC chat. Chat is meant to be transient, as a medium. > > Hmmm... colored me confused... the ML is for "official correspondence"? What are "official correspondence"?!? It's a random mailing list on the interweb. > > Let's put things in perspective: > > (1) there is a gemini IRC channel hosted by mozz.us, prominently advertised on the main portal page: > > https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/mozz.us/ > > https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/chat.mozz.us/ > > (2) Furthermore, there is a nice gemini chat log for it, again linked from that same portal page: > > https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/makeworld.gq/cgi-bin/gemini-irc This is totally incorrect. gemini://chat.mozz.us is not IRC and has nothing to do with #gemini. It's a demo for streaming gemini connections that nobody uses. The #gemini IRC channel that you are referring to is hosted on https://tilde.chat/. I don't know who owns it and I have no affiliation with them. gemini://mozz.us is my personal gemini capsule and is no more special than any other random site on the internet or gemini. https://portal.mozz.us/ is a gemini web proxy that I run. I have no clue what you mean by "main portal page". You are simply linking to my gemini server via my web proxy. - Michael (mozz)
> On Dec 21, 2020, at 17:36, Michael Lazar <lazar.michael22 at gmail.com> wrote: > > https://portal.mozz.us/ is a gemini web proxy that I run. I have no > clue what you mean by "main portal page". You are simply linking to my > gemini server via my web proxy. D'oh. Apologies. You are totally correct. Too many layers of indirections blending into each other. Eyes hurt. To recap: gemini://mozz.us/ aka https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/mozz.us/ lists the Gemini IRC Logs at gemini://makeworld.gq/cgi-bin/gemini-irc aka https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/makeworld.gq/cgi-bin/gemini-irc The IRC itself is hosted on tilde.chat (Mastodon?). Phew. Hopefully got the chain of custody right. Irrespectively, apology for the misattribution.
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