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Why there's a point to alternative protocols and spaces

solderpunk <solderpunk (a) SDF.ORG>

Howdy all!

Perhaps the most common criticism I've read of Gemini comes from people
who think defining a new protocol whose capabilities are very closely
matched by a subset of an existing one is a waste of time.  Why build
something from scratch when you can just build webpages which don't use
javascript or iframes etc., and serve them with servers that don't send
cookies and E-tags?

It's a fair enough question on the face of it, and I want our FAQ to
address it.

I think everybody here understands the tremendous difference between
that and what we're trying to do with Gemini, but it's a difficult thing
to boil down to a succinct answer.  I have written up some of my
thoughts in the traditional long form at:

gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/~solderpunk/cornedbeef/why-not-just-use-a
-subset-of-http-and-html.gmi

I am keen to hear people's thoughts, both on what I've written and on
the question in general, and receive suggestions on what good responses
are to people who ask this question.

Cheers,
Solderpunk

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defdefred <defdefred (a) protonmail.com>

typo:
- Javsacript
- buliding

I 'm Totally agreed with the content.

Bloated browser, auto-playing video, ads, all of this is against rational 
use of energy and human brain.

freD.

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solderpunk <solderpunk (a) SDF.ORG>

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 05:25:02PM +0000, defdefred wrote:
> typo:
> - Javsacript
> - buliding

Thanks, fixed!

Cheers,
Solderpunk

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defdefred <defdefred (a) protonmail.com>

It maybe an extremist point of view, but the possibility to link to other 
protocol is the "beginning of the end" for the SafeWeb.

How about using a web sanitizer gateway accessible via gemini protocol?

freD.

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cage <cage-dev (a) twistfold.it>

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 03:36:54PM +0000, solderpunk wrote:

Hi!

quoting from the mentioned article:

"[...] Safeweb  status is  inherently  unstable by  virtue  of being  a
subset of something greater [...]"

This, in my opinion, is the key  concept of the document.  I would say
that  this is  a  very  problematic equilibrium  as  the super-set  of
Safeweb has been  exploited or even designed to be  "unsafe" (at least
for the privacy of the users).

Bye!
C.

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Matthew Graybosch <hello (a) matthewgraybosch.com>

On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 15:36:54 +0000
solderpunk <solderpunk at SDF.ORG> wrote:

> I am keen to hear people's thoughts, both on what I've written and on
> the question in general, and receive suggestions on what good
> responses are to people who ask this question.

I think the general thrust of this post is solid, but I want to address
this part in particular. Not because I disagree with it, but to provide
my own answer.

> Why not just build non-evil websites using the existing technology,
> instead of building something new from the ground up?

I could, but I don't want to. It's too much like work. (I build
government web apps at my day job.)


independent websites as nothing but resources to plunder is infuriating.

vast majority either want the web to be about apps or a la carte cable
TV with a comment section.

TBH, I like that the Gemini scene has the sort of
underground/DIY/zine/samizdat vibe that it does. I like plain text. If I
still thought doing websites with a "safe subset" of HTML and CSS was
worthwhile I'd still be doing that.

Instead, I'm here.

-- 
Matthew Graybosch		gemini://starbreaker.org
#include <disclaimer.h>		gemini://demifiend.org
https://matthewgraybosch.com	gemini://tanelorn.city
"Out of order?! Even in the future nothing works."

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Martin Keegan <martin (a) no.ucant.org>

On Thu, 18 Jun 2020, solderpunk wrote:

> to boil down to a succinct answer.  I have written up some of my
> thoughts in the traditional long form at:
>
> gemini://gemini.circumlunar.space/~solderpunk/cornedbeef/why-not-just-use
-a-subset-of-http-and-html.gmi
>
> I am keen to hear people's thoughts, both on what I've written and on
> the question in general, and receive suggestions on what good responses
> are to people who ask this question.

I have written up a shorter version of roughly the same argument here:

gemini://gemini.ucant.org/meta/why-gemini.gemini

Mk

-- 
Martin Keegan, +44 7779 296469, @mk270, https://mk.ucant.org/

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solderpunk <solderpunk (a) SDF.ORG>

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 03:46:56AM +0100, Martin Keegan wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Jun 2020, solderpunk wrote:
 
> I have written up a shorter version of roughly the same argument here:
> 
> gemini://gemini.ucant.org/meta/why-gemini.gemini

Thanks for sharing this!  If I end up supplementing a short answer to
this in the FAQ with links to longer pieces on the matter, do you mind
me including this one?

Cheers,
Solderpunk

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Martin Keegan <martin (a) no.ucant.org>

On Fri, 19 Jun 2020, solderpunk wrote:

>
> Thanks for sharing this!  If I end up supplementing a short answer to
> this in the FAQ with links to longer pieces on the matter, do you mind
> me including this one?

Yes yes of course! It probably needs a complete rewrite by yet someone 
else, but until then it's good on its own terms.

Mk

-- 
Martin Keegan, +44 7779 296469, @mk270, https://mk.ucant.org/

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