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Appetite for Gemini users mailing list?

Caolan McMahon <caolan (a) caolan.uk>

I've been lurking here for a while but I'm less interested in bike 
shedding the spec and mostly just want to see what people can build with Gemini today.

I've noticed new capsule announcements on here are sometimes tentative - 
people (myself included) are not sure if it's on-topic, I think.

I'd like either another mailing list or a subject tag to highlight new 
capsules, software releases, and novel uses for the spec as it stands. 
There should be an accompanying statement that explicitly allows these announcements.

That doesn't mean discussion of the spec should stop. I'm just wading 
through a lot of it to find what *I* want right now and maybe we can 
welcome new users better if we organised things differently.

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Johann Galle <johann (a) qwertqwefsday.eu>

On 29.11.2020 09:47, Caolan McMahon wrote:
> I'd like either another mailing list or a subject tag to highlight new
> capsules, software releases, and novel uses for the spec as it stands.
> There should be an accompanying statement that explicitly allows these
> announcements.

We have the [ANN] subject tag for that I think. But that is currently used
for both new software and new capsules. Maybe it would be an improvement to
differentiate these two.

And maybe this thread is also interesting:
https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/2019/000060.html

That said I think it would not be worth setting up a separate mailing list.

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Rohan Kumar <seirdy (a) seirdy.one>

On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 04:26:19PM +0100, Johann Galle wrote:
>We have the [ANN] subject tag for that I think. But that is currently 
>used for both new software and new capsules. Maybe it would be an 
>improvement to differentiate these two.

Agreed that filtering by the [ANN] subject tag is pretty good for now; 
however, I do think that it would be helpful to encourage members to 

or "[ANN] [SOFTWARE] ...".

Since the line between a capsule and software isn't always super clear-- 
especially if a capsule serves as a demo of a piece of software (e.g.  
CAPCOM)--I do think that plain old "[ANN] ..." subject lines still have 
a place.

(also, I accidentally replied to Johann directly instead of this list 
because muscle memory refuses to die. Sorry!)

/Seirdy

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Caolan McMahon <caolan (a) caolan.uk>

> We have the [ANN] subject tag for that I think. But that is currently used
> for both new software and new capsules. Maybe it would be an improvement to
> differentiate these two.

Sure, I'd be fine with filtering on the [ANN] tag, the filter might miss 
some discussion of interesting use cases, but it would catch 80% of what 
I'm interested in.

What do you think about guidance on what's considered on-topic for the 
list? And perhaps guidance on when to use subject tags? This could be a 
couple of sentences in the Mailman page 'about' section

Caolan

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Johann Galle <johann (a) qwertqwefsday.eu>

At 2020-11-30T10:06+01:00, Caolan McMahon wrote:
 > What do you think about guidance on what's considered on-topic for the list?

As the current "About" information says that the list is about gemini, I think
it is as well about new capsules, new software as about protocol discussion.
Although I would consider protocol decision the normal thing to be found here.

 > And perhaps guidance on when to use subject tags?

I could not find it last time, but the tag was "formally" introduced here:
<https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/2020/000748.html>
I hope that answers some questions.

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Solderpunk <solderpunk (a) posteo.net>

On Mon Nov 30, 2020 at 10:06 AM CET, Caolan McMahon wrote:

> > We have the [ANN] subject tag for that I think. But that is currently used
> > for both new software and new capsules. Maybe it would be an improvement to
> > differentiate these two.
>
> Sure, I'd be fine with filtering on the [ANN] tag, the filter might miss
> some discussion of interesting use cases, but it would catch 80% of what
> I'm interested in.
>
> What do you think about guidance on what's considered on-topic for the
> list? And perhaps guidance on when to use subject tags? This could be a
> couple of sentences in the Mailman page 'about' section

I am actually extremely open to the idea of splitting the list into
several separate lists, as commonly seen in large software projects like
operating systems.  Something like:


  in the technical side of things.  Announcements of new capsules,
  projects like aggregators and "gemrings", authorship conventions,
  advocacy/outreach, etc.  Maybe announcements of initial releases of
  new user-oriented software.  Probably the busiest list?

  technical best practices, etc.

  this?  Probably low traffic, for sharing e.g. IP addresses of
  misbehaving clients.

  membership, guaranteed in advance to be permanently set read-only
  within a few months of creation.

  important announcements.

How do people feel about this?  I don't know how the list hosts feel so
can't guarantee this is possible, but I'm very happy to make enquires if
there's broad support for this.  I for one think it's a good idea.  I
know multiple people who have unsubscribed from this list after heavy
early involvement because it's just become too much to follow.

Cheers,
Solderpunk

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John Cowan <cowan (a) ccil.org>

On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 2:26 PM Solderpunk <solderpunk at posteo.net> wrote:


>   membership, guaranteed in advance to be permanently set read-only
>   within a few months of creation.
>

If you don't have an open(able) list, further spec errors similar to
the "gemini://" issue and schemelessness will never come to your
attention.  It's one thing to have a feature freeze, but supposing there
will never be any errata is to ask too much of human spec writers. (I am
one, and I know.)  Even RFCs are frozen in a purely textual sense, but they
can be superseded as a whole or in part, and there is an out-of-band formal
errata mechanism.


John Cowan          http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan        cowan at ccil.org
Clear?  Huh!  Why a four-year-old child could understand this report.
Run out and find me a four-year-old child.  I can't make head or tail
out of it.        --Rufus T. Firefly on government reports

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sario528@ctrl-c.club <sario528 (a) ctrl-c.club>

> I am actually extremely open to the idea of splitting the list into
> several separate lists, as commonly seen in large software projects like
> operating systems.  Something like:
> 
> * gemini-users: for everyday Gemini users without any special interest
>   in the technical side of things.  Announcements of new capsules,
>   projects like aggregators and "gemrings", authorship conventions,
>   advocacy/outreach, etc.  Maybe announcements of initial releases of
>   new user-oriented software.  Probably the busiest list?
> * gemini-dev: for people authoring Gemini software.  Discussion of
>   technical best practices, etc.
> * gemini-admin: for people running Gemini servers.  Do we actually need
>   this?  Probably low traffic, for sharing e.g. IP addresses of
>   misbehaving clients.
> * gemini-spec: for spec finalisation.  Ideally low traffic, limited
>   membership, guaranteed in advance to be permanently set read-only
>   within a few months of creation.
> * gemini-announce: very low traffic list only I can post to with
>   important announcements.
> 
> How do people feel about this?  I don't know how the list hosts feel so
> can't guarantee this is possible, but I'm very happy to make enquires if
> there's broad support for this.  I for one think it's a good idea.  I
> know multiple people who have unsubscribed from this list after heavy
> early involvement because it's just become too much to follow.
> 
> Cheers,
> Solderpunk

I am very much in support of this idea. I recently switched to the
digest format to reduce the number of incoming messages, but that has
it's own issues. 

Sario

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Caolan McMahon <caolan (a) caolan.uk>



>I for one think it's a good idea.  I
>know multiple people who have unsubscribed from this list after heavy
>early involvement because it's just become too much to follow.

And, just to be clear, it's not only the volume of messages that prompted 
by suggestion. I think it would be good to consider what a friendly 
onboarding looks like for new users and content creators - be that on this 
list or a separate one.

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Alexander Kellett <lypanov (a) gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 20:26 Solderpunk <solderpunk at posteo.net> wrote:

> On Mon Nov 30, 2020 at 10:06 AM CET, Caolan McMahon wrote:
> > Sure, I'd be fine with filtering on the [ANN] tag, the filter might miss
> > some discussion of interesting use cases, but it would catch 80% of what
> > I'm interested in.
>

Same here. But, it's very likely to be forgotten alas. As such, I prefer
solderpunks suggestion.

I am actually extremely open to the idea of splitting the list into
> several separate lists, as commonly seen in large software projects like
> operating systems.  Something like:

[SNIP]


How do people feel about this? [SNIP]
>

Love this list. My personal use cases are covered by announce + user.
Specifically, I'd like to read about gemini content, and software/service
(e.g GUS) announcements.

Alex

>

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Caolan McMahon <caolan (a) caolan.uk>

> My personal use cases are covered by announce + user. 
> Specifically, I'd like to read about gemini content, and 
> software/service (e.g GUS) announcements.

Yes, announce + user is what I'd subscribe to. Solderpunk's description of 
gemini-users is exactly what I had in mind.

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Unicorn <unicorn (a) disroot.org>

On Tue, 2020-12-01 at 16:19 +0000, Caolan McMahon wrote:
> > My personal use cases are covered by announce + user. 
> > Specifically, I'd like to read about gemini content, and 
> > software/service (e.g GUS) announcements.
> 
> Yes, announce + user is what I'd subscribe to. Solderpunk's
> description of gemini-users is exactly what I had in mind.

Just wanted to add my agreement with splitting into several lists. I
will likely unsubscribe from this list and I know one more person that
already did due to the volume of technical discussion and the manner
in which it is conducted.

I feel that it really would be a much nicer experience for users if
the two are kept separate. :)

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text@sdfeu.org <text (a) sdfeu.org>

On 2020-11-30 20:05, Solderpunk wrote:
> people who have unsubscribed from this list after heavy
> early involvement because it's just become too much to follow.

The mailing list is mirrored at nntps://gmane.io, so one could follow 
via ones favorite usenet news reader, e. g. Pan, tin, Thunderbird, etc.

Wikipedia on Gmane:
> Messages posted to the list by email will appear in the Gmane 
> newsgroup, and vice versa.

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Katarina Eriksson <gmym (a) coopdot.com>

Solderpunk <solderpunk at posteo.net> wrote:

> * gemini-users: for everyday Gemini users without any special interest
>   in the technical side of things.  Announcements of new capsules,
>   projects like aggregators and "gemrings", authorship conventions,
>   advocacy/outreach, etc.  Maybe announcements of initial releases of
>   new user-oriented software.  Probably the busiest list?
>

It would be great if this was its own list. Seems like it could encourage
more activity on the protocol. I'm in favor of this being created right
away.


>   technical best practices, etc.
> * gemini-admin: for people running Gemini servers.  Do we actually need
>   this?  Probably low traffic, for sharing e.g. IP addresses of
>   misbehaving clients.
> * gemini-spec: for spec finalisation.  Ideally low traffic, limited
>   membership, guaranteed in advance to be permanently set read-only
>   within a few months of creation.
>

Wait to see what happens with the current list after the -users list have
been created before separating these.


>   important announcements.
>

Where should we turn to if we have questions about an announcement?
Directly to you? Anyway, seems like a good idea.

-- 
Katarina

>

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