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< clseibold@auragem.letz.dev Christian Lee Seibold
@ 2023-09-30T14:30:52Z
# Hello All!
I wanted to introduce myself as the creator of this mailinglist! :)
- Christian
<=====
< misfin@auragem.letz.dev AuraGem Misfin Mail List
< clseibold@auragem.letz.dev Christian Lee Seibold
@ 2023-09-30T20:33:02Z
@ 2023-09-30T20:33:02Z
# New Sub! Steve K0STK
Hello Steve! I'm glad the subscription thing worked for you! This message should have two sender lines, one from krixano@auragem.letz.dev, and one from the mailinglist (misfin@auragem.letz.dev). My client lists the second sender (which is the first sender line, since sender lines are always prepended, not appended) as a "forwarder" and the first sender as the "original sender".
Anyways, thanks for testing!
<=====
< misfin@auragem.letz.dev AuraGem Misfin Mail List
< steve@k0stk.ddns.net Steve K0STK
@ 2023-09-30T21:04:07Z
@ 2023-09-30T21:04:07Z
# Greetings\nfrom backstage at the historic Fargo Theater! (thanks to ssh....)
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< clseibold@auragem.letz.dev Christian Lee Seibold
@ 2023-10-01T07:08:30Z
# Test!
We have a new subscriber! Welcome billsmugs!
I am also sending this message to test if the forwarding is working. :)
- Christian
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< steve@k0stk.ddns.net Steve K0STK
@ 2023-10-01T16:36:14Z
# Hi billmugs
It is nice to see new subscribers on this list!
Thanks to clseibold for making this go...
--
Steve
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< alexlehm@gemini.lehmann.cx Alexander
@ 2023-10-01T23:19:11Z
Looks like subscribing now worked
<=====
< clseibold@auragem.letz.dev Christian Lee Seibold
@ 2023-10-01T23:20:59Z
# New Sub: alexlehm
Welcome to the mailinglist alexlehm@gemini.lehmann.cx! Thanks for trying it out!
- Christian
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< clseibold@auragem.letz.dev Christian Lee Seibold
@ 2023-10-02T03:01:23Z
# New Sub: mail@satch.xyz
We have another subscriber! mail@satch.xyz
Welcome!
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< steve@k0stk.ddns.net Steve K0STK
@ 2023-10-02T11:48:18Z
I am always sseing connection refused messages when trying to send to anything @satch.xyz
<=====
< clseibold@auragem.letz.dev Christian Lee Seibold
< steve@k0stk.ddns.net Steve K0STK
@ 2023-10-02T12:35:27Z
@ 2023-10-02T11:48:18Z
I am always sseing connection refused messages when trying to send to anything @satch.xyz
<=====
< clseibold@auragem.letz.dev Christian Lee Seibold
@ 2023-10-02T12:40:05Z
# Re: satch's mailserver unavailable
Sending this to notify everyone that I forwarded steve's message to the mailinglist again because when steve originally sent it, it crashed my server. I have fixed the bug that caused the crash however.
Re: steve, yeah, I'm also not able to send to satch's email. The unavailability of his email is actually partly why the auragem mailserver crashed, lol. I did notify satch on Bubble of the issue.
<=====
< clseibold@auragem.letz.dev Christian Lee Seibold
@ 2023-10-03T01:10:29Z
# Misfin-Server Version 0.4
I have a new release out for my misfin-server, version 0.4. It adds the concept of a send permission to mailinglists to allow one to restrict who can write to a mailinglist. A newsletter, then, becomes just a mailinglist with designated writers as the only ones who can write to the mailinglist. There's also a new option on whether subs are auto-accepted, auto-rejected, or manually accepted (admins prompted on new subs) - but that last one hasn't been implemented quite yet.
I have started work on some news features and fixes, like handling redirects for mailinglist forwarding, and adding the ability to use pre-existing certs when setting up your server or mailboxes. These features should be out soon.
- Christian
<=====
< clseibold@auragem.letz.dev Christian Lee Seibold
@ 2023-10-04T08:07:20Z
# Misfin-Server Version 0.5 Release

=> https://gitlab.com/clseibold/misfin-server/-/releases Gitlab Releases Page
You can now see my misfin server's gemini interface, which allows anyone to see all mailinglist/newsletter gemmails and fetch the gemboxes of them with a fetch address.
=> gemini://auragem.letz.dev:1958/ AuraGem Gemini Mail Interface
- Christian
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< alexlehm@gemini.lehmann.cx Alexander
@ 2023-10-04T08:50:19Z
# misfin gemini\nwhen i try to access the gemini login, i get invalid certificate with lagrange
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< clseibold@auragem.letz.dev Christian Lee Seibold
@ 2023-10-04T08:53:56Z
# Re: misfin gemini
Ah, sorry if it wasn't clear. The gemini login is for those who have mailboxes on that server. Currently, I have not implemented a way to register. The point of the gemini login is that users who have mailboxes on that server can login to view their messages (or fetch their gembox).
Btw, I'm not sure if this is a problem on my end or not (I don't think it is), but you sent your message with the characters '\' and 'n', not with an actual new line.
- Christian
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< alexlehm@gemini.lehmann.cx Alexander
@ 2023-10-04T09:08:22Z
ok, i will try with the right cert. the \n comes from my trying to do a single command line, i think I have to use printf for that
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< alexlehm@gemini.lehmann.cx Alexander
@ 2023-10-04T09:12:42Z
# new sunject i am trying with printf now, maybe that will work
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< clseibold@auragem.letz.dev Christian Lee Seibold
@ 2023-10-04T09:12:52Z
# Re: [No Subject]
Sorry, let me clarify again. The login is for people who have an auragem.letz.dev mailbox, which nobody except for me does atm. The login is only for those who have a mailbox on that server. Your cert won't work because it's a mailbox on a different server. My server wouldn't be able to get your messages from your server, it can only access messages from the users who have registered on auragem.
Hopefully this makes more sense.
- Christian
<=====
< alexlehm@gemini.lehmann.cx Alexander
@ 2023-10-04T09:14:43Z
thank you, i understand the concept now
<=====
< clseibold@auragem.letz.dev Christian Lee Seibold
@ 2023-10-04T09:18:53Z
# Re: [No Subject]
Re: alexlehm
No problem! You should still be able to see the auragem mailinglists, hopefully, since they are public.
<=====
< alexlehm@gemini.lehmann.cx Alexander
@ 2023-10-04T09:28:48Z
the read access is working fine
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< alexlehm@gemini.lehmann.cx Alexander
@ 2023-10-04T10:17:30Z
# subject test
I was not even aware that the subject format is available in misfin, that is quite good
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< alexlehm@gemini.lehmann.cx Alexander
@ 2023-10-04T12:29:12Z
# misfin gemini server
using the same port for misfin and gemini is quite genius
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< steve@k0stk.ddns.net Steve K0STK
@ 2023-10-04T15:27:14Z
# Tried the auragem gemini mail interface
The mail interface at gemini://auragem.letz.dev:1958 is very nice!
I _did_ have to reread the v0.5 announcement a few times for the correct port to sink in...
--
Steve
<=====
< clseibold@auragem.letz.dev Christian Lee Seibold
@ 2023-10-04T21:42:57Z
# Re: misfin gemini server
Yeah, the misfin spec was made so that you could host multiple protocols over the same port. I think it was in one of the misfin docs where lem suggests that you could run a gemini server that acts as a "webmail"/geminimail interface for the misfin server. You can also host titan as well.
Unfortunately, because user certs are not stored on the server, I do not think I can add a way to send misfin messages via gemini. I think gemini clients will have to implement that themselves. But this is something that I will have to consider more on.
- Christian
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< clseibold@auragem.letz.dev Christian Lee Seibold
@ 2023-10-05T09:26:03Z
# Gemini-Misfin Access Protocol (GMAP)
Misfin handles the transfering of messages, but I feel we might need a protocol that handles managing stored messages on a server. I am starting this thread to consider a new protocol called GMAP that will act similarly to POP3/POP4 for simplicity. I feel that IMAP is well-covered by servers implementing their own Gemini Mail Interface, so we can design something for mail reading clients that uses a similar approach to POP3, the download-and-delete approach where a client downloads a user's mailbox and deletes the messages from the server. I'm still working out the details of this, however.
The other consideration with GMAP is whether and how a user accesses their mailbox from different devices. Does each device need to store all mails (in which case an IMAP system might be better) or can one device store mails that other devices don't have (in which case POP3's download-and-delete approach could work). We definitely want to handle all of this over Gemini because I think Gemini is a great system to use. So this protocol would really just be a layer over the Gemini protocol (kinda like how REST is a layer over HTTP... but we don't want GMAP to be as complicated as REST!).
The two things that I definitely have already decided are authentication, where the mail client should use the user's mailbox cert as the client cert for gemini requests, and message ids need to be unique by default (in POP3, these are called UIDL, unique-id listing). Other than that, all suggestions are welcome!
Things to consider: whether a server folder hierarchy should be supported, whether we want a fetch-and-delete approach or be more like IMAP's server state as the main state users interact with approach. Do we need the ability to create server folders from mail clients? etc.
- Christian
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< satya@tntsek.com Satya Benson
@ 2023-10-05T12:03:20Z
I don't have much time to write at the moment but I think the IMAP model is much better than the POP3 model. This is primarily because of multiple devices, and also for sanity reasons - I want to be able to know that all my messages are being stored on the server without nessarily having to keep all of them on my local computer all of the time.
<=====
< clseibold@auragem.letz.dev Christian Lee Seibold
@ 2023-10-05T12:45:19Z
# Re: Gemini-Misfin Access Protocol (GMAP)
Right. I feel like for an IMAP model where all clients are synced up, one should use the geminimail interface. However, perhaps having a separate protocol for that could be useful, idk.
For people who want a POP3-like interface though, there is the option of configuring it so that fetches never delete messages from the server, which is also an option that POP3 can do in traditional email.
I've actually taken this idea and have went ahead and made a simple change to my misfinmail client so that it keeps track of the receive date of the last fetched gemmail from the gemini fetch address. This allows you to delete gemmails from your local gembox while keeping the messages on your computer, and then when you fetch again, it won't put those gemmails you've deleted from the local gembox back into the gembox. This type of system is particularly good for public mailinglists where nobody can delete messages from the server, but this will let them only fetch new messages and delete ones from their own computer that they've already read.
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< satya@tntsek.com Satya Benson
@ 2023-10-05T15:28:45Z
# Imitate IMAP or POP3?
I think it is important that local changes are synced with the server, or at least that this is an option. This is because I have multiple computers and a phone, and I don't want to keep track of which messages I've read separately on each device.
Speaking of which, I think misfin clients should be designed with the Inbox Zero philosophy, in that there should be three folders of mail presented to the user: Unread mail, read but unfinished mail, and finished but archived mail. This should be not just possible, but highly encouraged by the client.
Information can easily be sent to the server by the client using queries in gemini requests.
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< satya@tntsek.com Satya Benson
@ 2023-10-05T15:34:50Z
# Re: Gemini-Misfin Access Protocol (GMAP)
I just read clseibold's message from this morning, sorry I missed it in my first mail.
My issue with the IMAP model being only available on the geminimail interface is a minor one, namely that it requires clients themselves implement sending functionality and is a little less convenient than having a dedicated client. Of course, a dedicated client using the geminimail interface could easily be built, but its structure would be highly dictated by said gemini interface.
Of course, for those who want POP3, what clseibold implemented in misfinmail already is great.
<=====
< clseibold@auragem.letz.dev Christian Lee Seibold
@ 2023-10-05T21:30:08Z
# Re: Gemini-Misfin Access Protocol (GMAP)
You bring up some great points @satya! Ok, so I think the best approach right now might be to go with one protocol that can support imitating both traditional POP3 and IMAP, depending on what the user wants and how the client is configured. This was already a thing POP3 could technically do, just with a few missing features like flags and folders, but POP4 was an unofficial spec that added these things on top of POP3. The way POP3 imitates IMAP is by always using the UIDLs of messages (unique-id listings), which were persistent ids, instead of the session-dependent ids of messages, and then a client would send delete commands for the specific messages deleted. POP4 added a way to change the *current* folder of the session, which saved the previous current folders updates (deleted messages marked deleted, etc.). And POP4 added flags for tracking read state, visibility, flagged email, etc. I think imitating POP4 gives us the best of both worlds.
But of course we also want to simplify POP4 for GMAP too. My final idea is that GMAP gemini "endpoints" (URLs) should be general enough that they work for GMAP supported clients, but can also be used as the endpoints for geminimail interfaces too. This reduces redundancy for those implementing support for both in their server, and simplifies creating geminimail interfaces.
If anyone else has any more thoughts, please do chime in!
-
Christian
<=====
< mail@supernovas.space Supernova
@ 2023-10-07T14:45:03Z
# Mail client v 0.4.5
Hi Christian, I just installed the newest version, and reset the timestamp for the last fetch and then added back the ~ to my conf file. I ran a successful 'fetch', and now we will see if this mail will successfully send!
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< clseibold@auragem.letz.dev Christian Lee Seibold
@ 2023-10-07T14:46:42Z
# Re: Mail client v 0.4.5
Yep! It sent! I'm glad you got it working now!!
- Christian
<=====
< mail@supernovas.space Supernova
@ 2023-10-07T14:57:38Z
# Re: Mail client v 0.4.5
Wonderful! This is fun, feels like we are reinventing the internet.
-Supernova
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< steve@k0stk.ddns.net Steve K0STK
@ 2023-10-23T10:54:17Z
Testing python client w/ v3.7 as requested at gemini://bbs.geminispace.org/u/gemalaya/6328