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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
Tuesday, March 19, 1991 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time
Topic: Assembly Language Programming
Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
AFL Dyfet What seems to be the problem?
QMil Eric Only problem I'm having is figureing out 50/60hz.
AFA Gary J Eric wants to detect the video hz.
AFL Dyfet OIC...50hz euro vs 60hz american...
QMil Eric <--- "Knight Ow1"
AFL Dyfet I can think of a few possibilities...
AFA Gary J Yes... That question has come up in here before, (I think in
connection with
AFA Gary J viewing 3200 pics)
AFL Dyfet My suggestion would have been to trap any verticle scan line irq,
and count occurances over the system
AFL Dyfet clock :)
AFL Dyfet (real time clock)
AFL Dyfet Okay, Knight, I guess you have the first question
AFL Dyfet for tonight :)
Knight Ow1 I was curious to if there was an easier way then by watching the
verical
Knight Ow1 counter to see which range it's using.
AFL Dyfet You just want to verify if you are running at 50hz or 60hz,
correct?
Knight Ow1 Want to know which it is so the PIF knows how to handle the
counter range.
AFL Dyfet Well, my first thought is a bit crude...trap a
AFL Dyfet scan line interrupt, and count how many you get
AFL Dyfet over a second (measured by the real time clock)...
Knight Ow1 (So it can calculate the difference between two numbers)
AFL Dyfet A simpler possibility would be to retreive the
AFL Dyfet settings from the battery backup ram (using the
AFL Dyfet misc toolset) assuming the bit involved is
AFL Dyfet documented.
AFL Dyfet Well, my clock says 10p and we already have two
AFL Dyfet questions in the queue :)...Does anyone else have
AFL Dyfet a suggestion for detecting vertical retrace rate?
ShanoJ I'm sure one of the bits in the back of the Firmware ref has it
(assuming this
ShanoJ is on a GS...).
AFL Dyfet I assume Owl means a IIgs....
Knight Ow1 Yes GS, but I don't have the ref book and a friend couldn't locate
the page.
AFA Gary J Parameter $1D in the battery RAM is supposed to contain the 50/60
hz setting.
AFA Gary J (Just looking....)
AFA Gary J I'm not sure what value is supposed to be stored there.
AFL Dyfet I don't have my books out here in 'Joisie', but I
AFL Dyfet thought it was in there :)...ReadBParm will let you retrieve
it...
AFA Gary J _ReadBParam
Knight Ow1 It's easy to check after I figure out the call.
JWankerl Of course you should use the ReadBParm to get that value.
JWankerl The reference number for 50/60 Hz is $1D as mentioned before.
Knight Ow1 What I was really interested in is an I/O location that can be
read to get
Knight Ow1 the status or to find out there isn't one, like the volumne.
AFL Dyfet Hmm...do not recall off-hand...if someone has the IIgs tech ref.
handy, they may be able to help
AFL Dyfet you Knight...
AFA Gary J I don't remember seeing a softswitch/register that covers the
video Hz setting.
Knight Ow1 (I did write down the bramread call, $1d, for reference)
WinkieJim Um, the only thing I can find is a NTSC/PAL softswitch
WinkieJim Bit 4 or $E0C02B 0=NTSC PAL
WinkieJim 1=PAL...
ShanoJ Anyone have NiftyList and wanna try the call? I tried, but AOL
didn't like
ShanoJ that... :(
Matt DTS (What's the question?)
ShanoJ (Hiya Matt, Jim!)
AFA Gary J How to determine the video Hz setting, Matt.
AFA Gary J (50/60 Hz)
AFL Dyfet Knight wanted to determine if the refresh rate was 60 or
50hz....in some manner other than using
AFL Dyfet readbparam...
Knight Ow1 Hi Matt, reading the status of 50/60hz setting. Possible i/o
location?
A2GS Why would you want too?
JWankerl The correct way to do it is _ReadBParm with a value of $1D - it
will *always*
JWankerl work.
WinkieJim A2GS, you've seen the Star Trek GS game? The author toggled that
to simulate
WinkieJim a "HIT" on your ship
A2GS sounds exciting
AFA Gary J :)
ShanoJ (and that toggling makes my monitor VERY unhappy... :( )
Knight Ow1 A2GS, I'm using the counter for timing and need to know which
range of values
Knight Ow1 to expect.
AFL Dyfet You only need to determine what it is once, Knight (or should only
need to do it once :), so you could
AFL Dyfet do it at the start of your program before getting into your
critical timing areas...
Knight Ow1 (I'd like our friends accross the seas to be able to use my PIF)
A2GS PIF?
AFA Gary J (PIF = permanant init file)
A2GS How about writing code which is timed by cycle counts rather then
using a HZ
A2GS timer...now there's a challenge :-)
A2GS ah....haven't worked on one of those in quite awhile
JWankerl Like instruction cycles? Not good - what about accelerators?
AFA Gary J Doesn't work if you've got a Transwarp or Zip chip, A2GS :)
A2GS sure...just check write 3 versions of your code :-)
A2GS kill the "check"
JWankerl A2GS - why didn't I think of that? Take the easy way out! (uh
huh...)
A2GS :-)
Knight Ow1 The cycles are different for differently GS's (zipchip,
transwarp)
Knight Ow1 and allowing interupts (the whole purpose of this PIF) messes up
cycle timing.
Matt DTS Why do you need to know this?
WinkieJim Couldn't you use the tick counter?
Knight Ow1 ticks are to slow only 60 per second, I need >= 1000.
AFL Dyfet GA Matt! You have the floor...
Matt DTS Why do we need to know 50 Hz vs. 60 Hz?
A2GS use scan line interrupts..will those do??
BillP good idea. :)
Knight Ow1 The values the vertical counter gives is different for 50 and
60hz. I use
Knight Ow1 them for timing between speaker clicks to form a bell that allows
interupts.
Matt DTS Different how?
A2GS why not just digitize the bell?
AFA Gary J A2GS :)
Knight Ow1 The DOC may be inuse by an application and I'm not allowed to
touch it.
A2GS I give you premission :_)
Knight Ow1 not good enough. :)
AFA Gary J (not on my machine!)
BillP I don't like anyone touching my doc
WinkieJim A2GS is herebye sentenced to life in the bad-programming jail
A2GS Yay....after all these years someone finally recognizes my work
:-)
DangardAce If there's a bad programming jail, I know a lot of MS-DOSers on
Death Row :)
AFL Dyfet So you are using the vertical scan line counter as
AFL Dyfet a millisecond timer?
Matt DTS How are the vertical counters "different" in 50 Hz mode?
Knight Ow1 As a timer yes, cause interupts can take an unkown amoun t of
time.
Knight Ow1 The values range from $64-$FF in 50hz and from $7D-$FF in 60hz.
Knight Ow1 When the value "wraps" I need to know how much to add/subtract.
Matt DTS Oh, so you're using hard-coded value counters to know where the
retrace beam is on the screen.
Knight Ow1 No, I remember the last value when I made a click and when I'm 8+
values higher
Knight Ow1 (counting wrap) I click again.
Knight Ow1 Plus the values server to calculate duration.
James S WI Wouldn't you know it's 50hz if you get a value from $64-$7C ?
Matt DTS I was about to point that out but got busy looking for a manual.
A2GS good point...
AFA Gary J Yeah, adjust on the fly :)
Knight Ow1 I can't garentee(sp) that I'll read the value $64-$7C when in
50hz.
AFL Dyfet I think this is a case of overdesign to 'adapt on the fly'...it
would seem logical to me to retrieve
AFL Dyfet the PAL/NTSC bram param at program startup, and if somebody really
changes it on the fly, just have a
AFL Dyfet warning in the docs that they need to restart...
Knight Ow1 An interupt can cause me to miss them. BackgroundSound is a long
interupt.
WinkieJim I came in late, why don't you want to use the value stored in
Battery RAM?
Matt DTS The value stored in battery RAM should do the trick for you,
actually, but I can't find any reference
Matt DTS on other ways to determine the refresh rate. GA.
Matt DTS (By the way, the only Apple-supplied way to change that value is
with Ctrl-OA-Opt-Reset, which isn't
Matt DTS likely to happen without rebooting. :)
JWankerl Matt - WriteBParm and WriteBRAM will change it as well.
WinkieJim The only program I know of that changes it is Star Trek Classic
AFL Dyfet The bparm change will not take effect till reboot, though,
Wankerl...
JWankerl Hmmm... would the ToBRAM vector make it take effect immediately?
Knight Ow1 I wouldn't go to that extreame.
Knight Ow1 Thank you all for the ideas!
AFL Dyfet I think this question has ran a little long, and Randy has been
waiting for awhile now :)...We may
AFL Dyfet get back to this a little later....GA Randy...
RandyT2 I have ORCA/M but I've never programmed in assembly. Any
suggestions on
RandyT2 books for beginners, etc.
AFL Dyfet GA Winkie
WinkieJim Apple IIgs Assembly Language Programming by Leo Scanlon, Batnum
books
WinkieJim That's what i used, although I knew 6502 first, but it covers the
whole set
AFL Dyfet Jonah...ga...
ShanoJ I vote for Programming the Apple IIgs in Assembly Language, by
Lichty and Eyes,
ShanoJ and the companion Programming the 65816 including the 6502, 65C02,
and 65802. I
ShanoJ thought the Scanlon book was a little simplistic and didn't cover
much info.:(
RandyT2 will it assume -> no <- prior knowlegde of assembly ?
DYA Jim1 Yes, Randy.
JWankerl Yah, the scanlong book was simplistic - I mostly use it for the
opcode
JWankerl reference in the back. :-)
AFL Dyfet GA Matt
RandyT2 I had the Lichty and Eyes (borrowed) and it lost me...oh well.
BillP What about Rogers book?
RandyT2 Rogers book?
BillP Wagner... didn't he do a assembler book for the IIGS?
JWankerl Assembly Lines? Was awesome for just the normal II.
AFA Gary J Yes, but his (Roger Wagner's) is oriented toward Merlin.
AFA Gary J (Which is fine, if you use Merlin)
DYA Jim1 (I started with NO ASM experience with Lichty and Eyes, and it
tought me :)
Matt DTS (sorry) I also vote for the Lichty and Eyes books...
Matt DTS I've *heard* (but can't personally vouch) that the Scanlon book
uses unsupported things in its samples
Matt DTS (GA)
ShanoJ Also, make sure you get all of the TB Refs and the GS/OS ref.
WinkieJim Really Matt, maybe that's what screwed me up :) :)
A2GS I started on the ORIGINAL Wagner book....NOW there was a GREAT
book.
A2GS The 8-bit book.
RandyT2 I spent alot of time changing Macro names with the Eyes book (it
was geared
RandyT2 for apw) and I was so involved in that that I got lost.
ShanoJ OH, also the Programmers Introduction to the Apple IIgs from Apple
is a good
ShanoJ starting point for getting the CONCEPTS down before delving into
the details.
Matt DTS The Programmer's Intro is *not* an assembly tutorial, and it
doesn't take advantage of any of
Matt DTS the current ways to program the IIgs (extended controls,
resources, etc.). GA.
ShanoJ Matt: true, but as I said it's a good place to get a handle on the
CONCEPTS.
AFL Scott (NewHandle?)
JWankerl I heard that Morgan Davis did a GS assembly book, but from what I
gather
JWankerl it wasn't so hot.
AFA Gary J (I'll vote for the Lichty and Eyes book too)
ShanoJ Ya, I've got the Davis one, too.... It's so-so.
AFL Dyfet GA Jay
JJennings The Davis/Gookin books are quite helpful for total GS beginners, I
think.
RandyT2 ShanoJ what was that about CONCEPTS, I think thats where I need
help?
A2GS One problem...recently I was looking for info on how to make SANE
calls
A2GS (not that I use them) and couldn't find ANY books (with the
exception of
A2GS Apple's own SANE book) which described making the calls,
clearly.
JWankerl SANE calls? Now there's some sketchy documentation - as bad as
AppleTalk docs!
ShanoJ Randy: I'm suggesting Apple's Programmer's Intro to the IIgs. It
is an old book
ShanoJ and doesn't handle a lot of the newer things, but it'll help you
understand
ShanoJ what the toolbox is and how to use it, and simple concepts like
handles versus
ShanoJ pointers, etc.
RandyT2 Basic is the only real experience that I've had and the structure
seem
RandyT2 very different
WinkieJim Have we confused you enough Randy?
RandyT2 I think so, yes..
A2GS Men: we've succeeded, at last.
AFL Dyfet Eventually the fog of confusion clears...:)
WinkieJim It takes me a day to get over this conference :)
RandyT2 I don't want to take all your time (time is money on AO)
RandyT2 Thanks for all the help!
AFL Dyfet Okay, let us go to Winkie's question then..GA Jim, you have the
floor now...
AFL Dyfet (good luck Randy)
WinkieJim ok, CDEV question(s)
WinkieJim First, if you want to draw something while you CDEV is active,
when do you do
WinkieJim it? In the Run message or do you use the Event messgae and look
for
WinkieJim uppdate events?
WinkieJim (spelling doesn't count) ga
AFL Dyfet GA Matt
Matt DTS A CDev is supposed to be entirely a list of extended controls -
you're not supposed to "draw"
Matt DTS anything else. GA.
WinkieJim Well, rats... :)
WinkieJim 2nd part:
WinkieJim what is the difference between the INIT messgae and the create
message?
AFL Dyfet GA Wankerl
JWankerl If you create someting in the INIT message, it will not be offset
correctly -
JWankerl it will overlay the icon list control. ICK!
JWankerl You're just supposed to set values for things you created in INIT.
GA.
WinkieJim Ok.
Matt DTS Yeah, create them in CreateCDEV, set them up in InitCDEV. (GA)
AFL Dyfet Okay, do we have any other questions for tonight?
WinkieJim Still bummed about not being able to draw in the window.
AFL Dyfet GA James....
James S WI Could someone give show me an example of declaring a function in
Orca/C ?
JWankerl Winkie- use lots of picture controls. :-)
AFL Dyfet Do you mean a prototype or a function?
James S WI Declaring a FUNCTION
AFL Dyfet I suppose the simples example might be the 'null'
AFL Dyfet program, which could be done as:
AFL Dyfet main(int argc, char **argv) {}; :)
James S WI is int my_func(int, int); correct?
AFL Dyfet That is a prototype, not a function. The prototype
AFL Dyfet is used to 'model' the function. You would then use something
like:
AFL Dyfet int my_func(int parm1, int parm2) { stuff }; later
AFL Dyfet on to actually show what it does...
ShanoJ (Uhh... Isn't this kinda covered in the _manual_?)
James S WI I don't under stand the book. I think I know the difference
between
James S WI define and declare and can define but not declare
AFL Dyfet Scott, go ahead....
AFL Scott Isn't defining a function done only when it used after main? I
mean if you
AFL Scott follow pascal style, you'll reduce the need for declaring (whoops
on the
AFL Scott earlier "defining" bit, I meant declaring)... I usually only
define macros
AFL Scott when I code. GA.
AFL Dyfet Sometimes 'forward' references to functions are unavoidable.
Prototypes are also needed when you
AFL Dyfet have external functions...
AFL Dyfet GA Bill...
BillP When you talk about "define" in C, you're talking about a
compiler directive...
BillP to define as Scott said, a macro or constant.
BillP ie...
BillP #define NULL 0
BillP talking about a declare usually refers to what everyone is talking
about with prototyping.
BillP which is always a good idea and will save you alot of hassles.
BillP Most compliers don't require prototyping but...
BillP it will save you from having to re cast variables that you're
passing.
BillP I usually have a .h file for every .c file...
BillP and the .h file contains function prototypes for each funtion in
the C,
BillP ga
James S WI OK. I think I have it. Thanks!
BillP helps you clean up alot of warnings when you compile.
BillP ga again. :)
James S WI return; (GA)
AFL Dyfet In C++ prototyping is mandatory....exit(0);
AFL Dyfet GA Bill...(seems we have a signal exception :)
BillP one last note... with a #define.. you don't end the
statement with a ;
BillP ga
AFL Dyfet Okay, do we have any more questions for tonight?
AFL Dyfet GA A2...
A2GS This is completely offbeat and really doesn't even belong in this
conference
A2GS room, But.....
A2GS What types of games interest people....in other words what would
you like
A2GS to see on the GS?
A2GS GA
AFL Dyfet Galactic Empire (he asked....:)
DYA Jim1 fast arcade action. :)
JWankerl Dragon's Lair. :-)
A2GS That's being worked on by READYSoft.
AFL Marty Dragon's Lair?
BillP Readysoft is doing IIGS????
A2GS yez
A2GS They did Space Ace
JWankerl Well Space Ace wasn't my idea of a fun game.
A2GS Not the way they wrote it....I agree.
BillP Would you believe, my favorite IIGS game is online as shareware?
A2GS Darts?
A2GS :-)
AFA Gary J :)
James S WI YES
AFL Scott No, Bill, I refuse to accept that! :) LOL!:)
BillP :P
AFL Scott What's the game, dude?
BillP I was wondering anyone was going to ask.. Milstone (Mil Bourne)
BillP action card game with great use of graphics and digitized sounds
JWankerl What about puzzle from the Desktop on System Disk 1.0, eh? :-)
DYA Jim1 You mean MouseDesk, Joe. :)
DYA Jim1 or whatever the name was.. some funny name.. DHR! (puke!)
A2GS I'm surprised that people don't have a wider range of interests
other then
A2GS "something which is action packed"
AFL Dyfet Galactic Empire is NOT an arcade game :)
A2GS Excuuuuuuse me :-)
AFA Gary J (Galactic Empire was a good one)
JWankerl Well, Sword of Sodan would be nice, too.
DYA Jim1 RISK!!!
DYA Jim1 I've been playing it at school during study hall for a week now
and I'm
DYA Jim1 addicted. :) Risk GS
A2GS That's already available for the 8-bit II
A2GS RISK that is
DYA Jim1 I want a mac version, in color on my GS. :) maybe I'll do it
eventually. :)
A2GS Good luck.
BillP I agree, I only have the mac version. It was done real well.
DYA Jim1 It's real fun. :)
A2GS Nothing else? 3-D type game....Sierra type adventure?
AFL Marty Does it have to be a game?
James S WI I would like a game that has opponents with some level of AI.
DYA Jim1 Sure, go for 3-d as well! :) if it's done WELL
JWankerl A good GS flight simulator like SkyFox would be awesome.
AFL Dyfet You mean a "Leasure user Lenny" style adventure game?? :)
BillP Lemmings
A2GS Yes....since that seems to be the GS' weakest spot (next to
Apple,
A2GS not including the II Team at Apple, of course)
AFL Dyfet Or, Bolo...\
James S WI Action is nice but not to fun when it's U agents 1,000 and U
win.
JWankerl Or Bilestoad.
JWankerl Remakes of the old classics... ahhh...
AFL Scott I'd like to see a good war strategy game on the GS.
A2GS SSI type game, you mean?
AFL Scott Yeah, but something that can have scenarios/terrain programmed and
something
AFL Scott that uses realistic odds.
AFL Dyfet I'd like to see something like user expandable games....
A2GS you want terrain....I got about a thousand golf games for the
GS.
AFL Dyfet OIC, Scott is along the same thought pattern :)
A2GS :-)
AFL Scott m|m
ShanoJ What's thay saying? Demented minds think alike?
AFL Marty I'm curious why you asked.
A2GS Well....let's just say for now...I'm planning with a few of my
colleagues for
A2GS the future.
JWankerl 2 player games over the modem or AppleTalk would be great - head
to head stuff.
James S WI If the game is head to head there is a chance that your opponent
will have AI
AFL Marty Some kind of simulation would be nice.
AFL Scott NetTrek!
AFL Dyfet Why stop at 2 players with Appletalk :)
A2GS Yes...but what the potential market for those type of games?
AFA Gary J (I've got one of those in the works, but the speed seems to be a
problem)
AFA Gary J (modem speed, that is)
Matt DTS I'd *love* to see some multi-player AppleTalk games. We might
never finish new system software.
Matt DTS :)
AFL Dyfet X-Trek, as revised at Berkeley, is cool!
AFL Scott I wonder how hard it would be to port some Xwindows network games
to use
AFL Scott AppleTalk? Hmm...
AFL Dyfet Some parts of BSD unix came out of X-Trek development, Matt :)
AFL Dyfet Okay, I guess we can get to Gary's q then...
AFA Gary J This question was posed by JJennings in our message boards, but
I've been
AFA Gary J wondering about it too (since I have been reviewing all the
uploads here).
AFA Gary J Recently we've seem to have a ton of "custom toolsets" uploaded
AFA Gary J , and each one seems to be picking their own number for their
use. (i.e.
AFA Gary J Tool069, Tool208, etc.) Some seem to conflict with others that
have been
AFA Gary J released. Is there an Apple defined way of obtaining a toolset
number, or is
AFA Gary J it a free-for-all? What's the correct thing to do? (I would say
NEVER use a
AFA Gary J user toolset, if it were up to me) GA
ShanoJ DON"T STEAL SYSTEM TOOLSET NUMBERS!! I HATE THAT!!!!!!
ShanoJ Gary: Use a user toolset...
AFL Dyfet GA Matt....
Matt DTS Some people are obviously having trouble understanding this, so
I'll use capital letters:
Matt DTS ALL SYSTEM TOOL SET NUMBERS ARE RESERVED FOR APPLE; NONE ARE
AVAILABLE FOR THIRD PARTIES TO USE.
JWankerl YEA MATT! APPLAUSE, APPLAUSE!!! I wish people would learn.
Matt DTS If you find a programmer who can't understand this, get him a copy
of Toolbox Reference Volume 3 and
Matt DTS HIT HIM OVER THE HEAD WITH IT. (I'd say IIgs TN #73, too, but
that wouldn't hurt.) GA.
AFA Gary J :)
AFA Gary J I agree with that.
A2GS :-)
AFL Dyfet Hit him hard! :)
AFA Gary J I'd say, use the entire reference set across his head :)
AFA Gary J (except he might not recover from that)
A2GS Then why was the info for creating these toolsets provided in the
first place?
Matt DTS We never provided info for creating system toolsets. It just so
happens that they're identical
Matt DTS to user tool sets except in how they're installed. Some smart
people figured this out. GA.
JWankerl System and User toolsets are programmed the same way-just
installed differently
A2GS oh....ok
AFL Marty (elaborate a little, please)
Matt DTS Marty: You'll have to ask a more specific question to get more
specific information.
A2GS What's the difference in installation?
AFL Marty What is the difference between a system and a user toolset?
A2GS Is that what you meant, Marty?
AFL Marty (i.e. in what way are they installed differently)?
Matt DTS System tools go in the *:System:Tools folder and are installed
with LoadOneTool. User tools can go
Matt DTS anywhere and are installed with InitialLoad2 and SetTSPtr.
Matt DTS System tools are called through $E10000 or $E10004, user tools are
called through $E10008 or $E1000C.
Matt DTS End of differences. GA.
AFL Marty Thank you.
James S WI Why can't we make system tools or is there just no reason?
JWankerl Because you can make user tools instead. :-)
Matt DTS System tool numbers are reserved for Apple.
Matt DTS We keep them so we can use them for new tools. The user tool set
mechanism was created for this
Matt DTS reason.
Matt DTS Why?
A2GS There's always the possibility that a Users toolset # will be the
same as
A2GS a future release of Apple's Toolset#.
Matt DTS Because there's only 255 tool numbers possible, and that's not
enough for Apple to have lots and still
Matt DTS assign a tool number to every one who wants one.
Matt DTS A2GS: User tools are parallel but separate to system tools - the
numbers don't collide.
AFL Dyfet There are also only 255 possible system tools...there isn't enough
territory there to avoid
AFL Dyfet conflicts between Apple and different users with toolset
needs...or as Matt just said :)
AFA Gary J :)
Matt DTS For example, if you install FakeModalDialog as user tool #1, it
doesn't interfere with the Tool
Matt DTS Locator. <GA>
A2GS I know....I was just pointing out, what could happen if the User
created
A2GS a toolset as a SYSTEM toolset and then gave it his own random
toolset #.
JWankerl It would work until Apple made a toolset of the same number.
AFL Dyfet Or until someone else also used that number...:)
A2GS The question is.....will the GS last long enough for Apple to
reach toolset #
JWankerl (Although I don't know why you'd do that - the user toolset way
is
JWankerl *much* more flexible!)
A2GS 255?
JWankerl A2GS - 255 is already taken - by GSBug. :-)
A2GS ok....254 :-)
AFL Dyfet It's lasted long enough for the few people who have made use of
system tools to conflict with each
AFL Dyfet other already! :)
A2GS That's no big feat -)
A2GS oops forgot the eyes :
AFA Gary J (with popular numbers)
AFL Dyfet :)
Matt DTS Yeah...what are the chances two people would both pick the same
obscure number...69?
Matt DTS :)
AFA Gary J LOL! :)
AFL Dyfet It's happened already :)
AFA Gary J Well, that was exactly the point of my question. I thought
people were
AFA Gary J supposed to know better than that, but apparently not :)
JWankerl Apparently not.
AFA Gary J (I just copy the tool to my system folder long enough to test the
upload, then
AFA Gary J delete the thing :)
JWankerl (I'd tell 'em to rewrite it before you release it :-)
Matt DTS You could be bold and refuse uploads that do such stupid things.
AFA Gary J :)
AFA Gary J That would certainly be a way of getting the "word" out of not
using the tool
AFA Gary J numbers.
AFL Dyfet I am not a proponent of censorship, except in the most extreme of
cases...however, one can make an
AFL Dyfet argument against releasing 'defective' software that may cause
damage, and could consider software
AFL Dyfet that abuses system tools in a similar manner...
AFA Gary J Perhaps a warning (to the downloader) in the file description
would be
AFA Gary J appropriate :)
AFA Gary J WARNING: THIS PIECE OF SOFTWARE DOES NOT CONFORM TO APPLE
STANDARDS. USE AT
AFA Gary J YOUR OWN RISK!! :)
AFL Dyfet Well, a broad-minded warning such as that would have to be
attached to more than just tool abusers
AFL Dyfet :)
Matt DTS You could put them all in a "Software that breaks the rules"
library. :)
AFA Gary J Yep :)
AFA Gary J Well, I agree with you Dave, I have never been one to censor
anything (unless
AFA Gary J of course it violates AO Terms of Service :)
James S WI I wunder if that folder would be bigger than all the others. :(
AFL Dyfet The question there becomes what constitutes 'breaking the
rules'....what about lesser misdeeds,
AFL Dyfet such as simple filetype misuse....:)
AFL Dyfet Where do you draw the line.....
Matt DTS File type misuse: Death by hanging. Simple.
AFL Dyfet And let's not forget 'illegal memory location' users, 'call
patchers' (a practice common to
AFL Dyfet Byteworks/APW/ORCA/M for shell calls through GS/OS :)
AFA Gary J Hmmm... I think the software libraries on AO would become VERY
sparce :)
Matt DTS Patching calls isn't illegal, just not always very smart.
Matt DTS In a shell's case, it's the defined and accepted way to do it.
APW does it (Apple-labeled).
AFL Dyfet Some feel the same way about filetype misuse, Matt :)
AFL Dyfet But it is a good point you raised Matt....goodnight...
AFL Dyfet Goodnight all...