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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
Tuesday, February 5, 1991 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time
Topic: Special Guest Jay Jennings from 8/16 Journal
Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
AFL Dyfet Okay, I guess we can get started....good evening everyone and
AFL Dyfet welcome to the Apple II Development Forum. Tonight we will be
AFL Dyfet discussing technical publications, and our guest will be Jay
Jennings
AFL Dyfet from the 8/16 Journal. We will be using protocol tonight, so
AFL Dyfet please bare with us. I would now like to give Jay a chance to
AFL Dyfet introduce himself and tell us about 8/16. Go ahead Jay, you
have
AFL Dyfet the floor now....
JJennings Thanks. I'll make it short and sweet (kind of)...
JJennings I've been programming computers for about six years and working
for A2-Central for a little over a...
JJennings ...year. Last fall we had a chance to acquire 8/16 from Ariel
Publishing. After a little...
JJennings ...discussion we decided to go for it. My job changed and now I
have no more free time. :) ...
JJennings 8/16-Central is a disk-based publicatin that's dedicated to
serving Apple II programmers...
JJennings ...and developers. We publish articles, source code, utilities,
and anything else of...
JJennings ...interest to the people programming the Apple II.
JJennings Umm...what else would you like to know? :)
AFL Dyfet I guess that was an opening for a question :)...GA Marty :)
AFL Marty Why did you decide to use HyperStudio as the means of
distribution?
AFL Marty (I didn't phrase that right... make the right question out of it
and
AFL Marty answer it. :)
JJennings Because text files on a disk are BORING and UGLY and NO FUN. With
a cool front-end, on the..
JJennings ...other hand, we can have something that at least _appears_ to be
a magazine. I started out...
JJennings ...writing a front-end fro scratch. Then realized (thank God!)
that HS would do almost...
JJennings ...everything I wanted it to. Yes, it's only good for the 16-bit
people, but...
JJennings ...we're working on an 8-bit front-end, too. ga
AFL Dyfet Ga Marty :)
AFL Marty Who writes your articles? Are you looking for more authors?
JJennings Everybody, and yes. I try to write one every once in a while so I
don't go over budget (yes, we
JJennings pay for submissions), but most articles are from outseide
authors.
JJennings Oh, wait...
JJennings I have a backlog of IIgs stuff right now. I have enough articles
for the next few issues...
JJennings ...except for 8-bit stuff. Nobody wants to write it anymore! :(
AFL Dyfet Okay, ga now Winkie :)
WinkieJim The last issue of 8/16 had the 8-bit front end on it...
WinkieJim GA That's my comment...
JJennings Lemme respond to the comment...
WinkieJim (of course it crashed on my GS :) :)
JJennings That's an interim front-end. I'm looking for one that acts like
HS. A dedicated 8/16 front-end. GA
WinkieJim ah...
JJennings (You must have a weird GS. Karl Bunker doesn't write stuff that
crashes! :)
WinkieJim It was a neat crash...very fun to watch :)
WinkieJim ga
AFL Dyfet Okay, Windrider has the next question...Go ahead Wind...
Windrider5 What is the ratio of 8 to 16 in terms of coverage and readership
interest?
JJennings Darn good question! Darn good. And the answer is...
JJennings ...I dunno.
JJennings (more...)
JJennings The articles are running about 70/30 in each issue (in favor of GS
stuff) simply because...
JJennings ...all the new stuff (mostly) is happening on the IIgs. We have 2
GS articles and 2 8-bit...
JJennings ...articles per issue. But HyperLab is only for the IIgs, most of
the letters are about the IIgs,...
JJennings ...the Online columns are mainly GS stuff. Because that's what
people are talking about.
JJennings But I'm trying to put more 8-bit stuff on there. It seems like it
gets harder every month to find it..
JJennings ...though.
JJennings As far as the subscribers go, we're doing a survey in April and
we'll see what comes of that. GA
JJennings (See what the ratio of 8 to 16-bit people is, I mean. GA)
ShanoJ <-- 16 bit person... :)
AFL Dyfet Hmm...that would be an interesting survey :)....Okay, would anyone
else wish
A2Evanglst <--- 2 bit person ;)
AFL Dyfet to ask our guest a question?
AFL Marty What kind of 8-bit articles are you looking for? Maybe someone
reading the
AFL Marty transcript will submit something if they have something specific
to aim at.
AFL Marty GA
AFL Dyfet Maybe, Marty ;)
JJennings Gee, thanks, Marty. Back when I was a freelance programmer I could
never think of...
JJennings ...what to write. Now that I'm an editor people are asking and I'm
supposed to know! :) ...
AFL Marty Yeah but you get the big bucks now. :)
JJennings I don't have anything specific in mind. Basically, all the
articles we run should have something...
JJennings ...in common. That is, they should explain a programming
technique, show how to do something...
JJennings ...that maybe a little tricky, etc. If you write programs you
probably butt heads with problems...
JJennings ...all the time. When you come up with a creative solution, write
an article about it! ...
JJennings There are probably others out there running into the same problems
and if you can help them get...
JJennings ...over the hump, we all benefit with better software. GA
JJennings Big bucks? Hahahahahah! Good one! :-P
AFL Marty Thanks... done.
ShanoJ Make sure you ask DTS about your 'creative solutions' before you
write the
ShanoJ article... They never seem to like mine... :)
ShanoJ Guess I'm just too creative... :)
JJennings Well...I've been yelled at by DTS before - and I'm sure it'll
happen in the future. Send them...
JJennings ...anyway and we'll chance it. :) GA
AFA Gary J Controversy sells :)
AFL Dyfet Okay, do we have any more questions for Jay while we have him here
tonight?
AFL SandyB If it isn't confidential information, how much DO you pay for an
article...
AFL SandyB (Marty, he sweeps his carpeting cause he doesn't have a vacuum, he
doesn't
AFL SandyB get paid enough yet, :)) GA
JJennings Hey, no secrets!
AFL SandyB :)
AFL Marty (what's carpeting? :)
AFL SandyB LOLOL
JJennings We pay anywhere from $50 to $100 for an article. Most go for about
$75. No, you won't...
JJennings ...get rich, but yo'll be famous and chicks will _swarm_ over
you!!! (yeah, I'm still...
JJennings ...waiting for that one to happen, too). GA
AFL Marty chicks?? :)
AFL Dyfet GA Sandy...
AFL SandyB If you lived here I'm sure our local APPLE // user group would
love to have
AFL SandyB you come in and show what 8/16 is and how you put one
together...if 8 bit
AFL SandyB programmers are difficult to find (and I'm sure they're out there)
why
AFL SandyB don't you all get the User Group list and send out a call for
those
AFL SandyB programming in 8 bit?
JJennings Local UG list? The chances of finding 8-bit programmers in KC are
a bit slim...
JJennings ...but it's a thought. Hmmm...a UG demo. Cool idea. :) GA
AFL SandyB No, I meant get Apple's user group list
AFL SandyB and send out something saying what 8/16 is and why programmers
are
AFL SandyB essential to its success...
JJennings Okay, Apple also has a developer list. But they want MUCHO bucks
for it I think. And we're...
JJennings ...still small potatoes. But again, that's a good idea. I might
throw that past Tom W.
JJennings Yeah...
AFL SandyB Apple's off the mark if they don't kiss the ground A2 walks on,
:).
JJennings ...we haven't done ANY marketing of 8/16-Central yet, and when we
do we'll include a call for...
JJennings ...articles. GA
AFA Gary J Just curious, but what distinguishes a $100 article from a $50
one?
AFL Marty $50 :)
JJennings Hehehh!
AFL SandyB Hahahaha
AFA Gary J Marty :)
JJennings It depends on whether you send me any cookies along with the
article.
AFA Gary J (I should have known that would come from you :)
Apple24evr Yeah... I was wondering, also...
AFA Gary J Is it word count? Or..
AFA Gary J technical expertise? Or what?
JJennings That, and it depends on the length and complexity of it. If I
could crank out a similar...
JJennings ...article in a couple hours, it'll go to the lower end. But if I
look at it and say, "Kewl!", than...
JJennings ...it goes to the higher end. GA
AFA Gary J Ok, thanks :)
A2GS What kind of articles are you looking for?
JJennings In the last couple issues we've done stuff on 3200 color pics,
custom controls (March issue - that...
JJennings ...was done today), SFGet in C, menus and windows in 8-bit, etc.
That's typical of what we're...
JJennings ...looking for.
JJennings It doesn't have to be a big application or utility. Just a good
explanation of something that might...
JJennings ...confuse the average programmer. Like an explanation of how to
use CopyPixels (coming...
JJennings ...in the March issue). GA
A2GS What kind of 3200 color stuff did you already discuss....I've got
a couple
A2GS of things that I might be able to add.
JJennings Basically a way to display 3200 color pics. Source code, a
linkable routine, and an explanation of...
JJennings ...what's happening in the program. That's what we ran. I'd be
interested in associated subjects.
AFL Dyfet Go ahead Sandy....
AFL SandyB There's a pirate board around where 8/16 issues are up with the
biggest and
AFL SandyB the best of all A2 software. Is that flattering or does that make
you angry?
JJennings Officially or unofficially? :)
AFL SandyB That's enough answer, :).
JJennings No, I have another answer...
JJennings ...no, I guess I don't. I'll get in trouble. :) GA
AFL Dyfet That's okay Jay :)
JJennings Answer: Don't pirate it! If you can't pay for it, tell me and
we'll make a deal with you. GA
AFL Marty (Was it something like "pirates suck pond scum"?)
AFA Gary J 15 cents per copy? :)
AFA Gary J (or whatever the Open-Apple deal used to be :)
JJennings (Not quite, Gary. Good try. :)
Barbarian6 So what is the topic tonight?
AFL Dyfet Technical Publications, Barbarian, and Jay Jennings, from 8/16
Journal is our
AFL Dyfet guest tonight....
A2GS Barbarian?
Barbarian6 yes
A2GS oh...Barbarian :-) (not the game??)
AFL Dyfet GO Sandy
AFL SandyB If A2 Central is the umbrella technical Apple // publication/
AFL SandyB organization in the country/world, how come we don't see A2's
presence
AFL SandyB more on America Online? Is A2's profit in GEnie?
JJennings Ooooh!
Apple24evr Hehe
JWankerl I'd like to point out that GS+ also publishes tech info - 8/16
isn't alone.
ShanoJ (and GS+ is in paper, too... <poke, poke> :)
JJennings Okay, here goes...
JJennings ...as the A2 Round Table "big wigs", we have a free account on
GEnie. We don't have to worry...
JJennings ...about racking up Tom's VISA card (he yelled at me last month
for my online time!)...
JWankerl ShanoJ: Paper AND disk. They compliment each other.
JJennings ...but we are here now, and will stay. Just not as visible as on
GEnie...which kind of makes...
JJennings ...sense, if you think about it. :) GA
JJennings Yeah, paper's cool.
Mac Hater why can't you get a IC account like Incider.
JJennings Free advertising: Subscribe to GS+.
JJennings sniff whine. Because I don't know how, Mac Hater. :) Besides...
JJennings ...I almost live online as it is. I don't know if I could take
anymore at this point. :) GA
A2GS What the advantage of having an IC account (what is it anyways?)
Mac Hater Free hours. :-) Its the Industry Connection
(Broderbund,AE,etc,etc)
Mac Hater Ross setup a IC for his Mac thingie
JJennings We haven't looked into that yet. I don't know if it's a
possibility or not to tell you the truth.
AFL Dyfet Okay. go ahead, Apple24evr....
Apple24evr Thanks... what's the difference in $$ between an article with a
program and without? GA
JJennings You get almost diddly for an article without source and a program.
Unless you're real special...
JJennings ...and send me some cookies.
AFL Dyfet Probably chocolate chip or you get nothing :)
AFA Gary J (silicon cookies?)
Apple24evr Cookies, huh? What kind, specifically? GA
AFL Marty (ahem... I have a copyright on the term "diddly" :)
AFA Gary J LOL!
JJennings We don't - for the most part - run articles without source code.
That's what's cool about a...
JJennings ...disk-based publication. We can have teh source and executable
file right there for you to play...
JJennings ...with. GA
JJennings I'm partial to ginger cookies - if they're soft. Chocolate chip
are cool, too. GA
AFL Dyfet No mess with mistyped listing or software that wasn't really
debugged before
AFL Dyfet publication :)...
Apple24evr Ok---almost done...
A2GS No offense...I prefered the old paper issues :(
JJennings Ginger cookies with cold milk (but you dont have to send the
milk...I'll supply that).
JJennings Me, too. No, that's not true...
JJennings ...I used to miss the paper version. After four issues I like the
disk version better. ...
JJennings ...But then, I am a tad biased.
Apple24evr What if the article really doesn't have a program that could go
with it? Or, if the demo
Apple24evr program would have to be too big to fit on the disk? GA
A2GS could you send me 4 issues to try and persuade me :_)
A2GS errr :-)
Apple24evr (I'm done harassing Jay after that last one, BTW)
JJennings Um...like I said, for the _most_ part we don't do articles without
programs. There can, and are,...
JJennings ...exceptions. GA
AFL Dyfet Okay, Mac has the next question...GA Mac...
Mac Hater psuedo-off topic, but I don't mind. How are the plans for KFest
going? Have
Mac Hater you fleshed out any details on participating in a whatchamaclit
(i'm tired...
Mac Hater the thing where you tell people about things...argh) *zzz* ga
AFA Gary J :)
JJennings A session? :)
Mac Hater thats it
JJennings Okay...
JJennings We're looking for proposals at this time. There's info on
KansasFest in the March issues of...
JJennings ...A2-Central and 8/16-Central. I'll also be posting that info
here very soon - maybe later...
JJennings ...tonight after I get home. Apple will be there again, and we're
expanding it from...
JJennings ...two days to six days.
Apple24evr Wow!
Mac Hater SIX? WOW
Mac Hater Does that include college?
AFL Dyfet SIX!! Excellant!
Apple24evr And half the price, right??
JJennings First two days, GS college, Pascal college, or C college. Next two
days, regular KansasFest,...
AFA Gary J :)
JJennings ...last two days, Apple Central Expo - and AppleFest-type exhibit
fair sponsored by...
JJennings ...Apple Midwestern Region. GA
JWankerl What's the # to call for KFest? I lost the scrap I had it on...
something 6502
JJennings 913-469-6502.
JWankerl Thanx.
A2GS 6 Days????? No offense...but where are you going to get all the
material to
A2GS fill those days....is there enough material to begin with??
JJennings Tom - we only have to fill two days. The colleges take up the
first two, and ACE takes up the last 2.
Mac Hater could you repost the dates please?
JJennings Yeah, July 16-21, 1991 in Beautiful Kansas City.
Mac Hater Overland Park, in the middle of nowhere, you mean ;)
Apple24evr Glorious Kansas City...
AFL SandyB Right, Mac Hater, exactly.
JJennings You could also fax a request for info at 913-469-6507. We like
faxes.
AFA Gary J 6507? (Must be a new processor)
AFL SandyB Gary, veiled things like that are what start rumors, right? It's a
new
AFL SandyB processor for the ][+, LOL.
Apple24evr (LOL Gary!)
JJennings OPKS - The town that never sleeps.
JWankerl Man, I drove thru Kansas for XMas break - I saw a sign - McD's 100
miles! ARGH!
AFL SandyB LOL
AFL Dyfet I spent a week driving through Kansas one day :)
Nuzz I missed that ACE reference. What is ACE
JJennings Apple Central Expo = ACE. We couldn't use the name AppleFest so we
made up our own name. :)
AFA Gary J Is that the central U.S. version of Apple Fiesta?
JJennings Kind of the central version of Apple Fiesta (I guess). :)
ShanoJ I have a completely unrelated ?, for the Apple guys, when you're
ready...
JWankerl Me too.
AFL Dyfet Okay, Jonah, I guess now is as good a time as any :)....Go
ahead...
ShanoJ Okay, I have this routine where I call MarkResourceChange and
then
ShanoJ WriteResourec on a resource. If I get a locked error on the Write,
I open an
ShanoJ alert and tell the user to unprotect the disk. If they eject the
disk and then
ShanoJ stick it back in, WITHOUT unlocking it, and I make the
WriteResource call
ShanoJ again, I DON'T get a lockedDisk error, but the resource ISN'T
written. Then,
ShanoJ WEIRD things start happening after I quit the program (I get file
still open
ShanoJ errors, etc.) What to do?
AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
Matt DTS Are you checking for errors other than "locked error"?
ShanoJ Yuppers. I don't get ANY errors--carry is clear on the second
WriteResource. :(
Matt DTS (Which I assume is $2B, write protected [correct] and not $4E,
invalid access [incorrect])
Matt DTS What kind of device is it?
ShanoJ It's a Apple 3.5" disk. (And ya, it was a $2B that I was talking
about.)
Matt DTS (Apple 3.5 Drive, you mean?) Hmmm...
ShanoJ I know the resource manager has a NotifyProc set up for disk
ejects. Is it
ShanoJ possibly closing the resource file or some such?
Matt DTS A call made to an open file while the disk is offline should
return $2E (disk switched), but
Matt DTS it shouldn't return errors after you've inserted it.
Matt DTS (The notify proc is only called after the fact - not before the
disk is ejected.)
ShanoJ But that's the problem--it's NOT! :(
Dave Lyons Jonah, are you sure that notify proc is for ejects? I thought it
was just for GS/OS<-->P8 switches.
ShanoJ Hmm... I'll go check...
ShanoJ Err, scratch that... I'm using the P8 version... :(
ShanoJ (of AOL, that is)
Matt DTS I can't think of anything that would cause it. Mybe you're doing
something else wrong. :)
ShanoJ That's likely, Matt, but I sure can't figure out what it is. The
sequence of
ShanoJ calls is
MarkResourceChange/WriteResource/AlertWindow/WriteResource. It
should
ShanoJ loop on the last two, but I'm not getting an error on the Write...
:(
Matt DTS Well, hold on...
JWankerl NotifyProc is for os switches, disk insert eject, volume change,
and shutdown.
ShanoJ (thanks, Joe.)
Dave Lyons Joe, in the case of the Resource Manager's notify proc, there only
seem to be 3 bits set in the
Matt DTS It does sound like the info is succesfully being written through
GS/OS but GS/OS is unable to flush
Matt DTS the file when it's time to update the stuff.
Dave Lyons flags word--it doesn't take all the event types.
Matt DTS Can you use GSBug to set OS breaks on WriteGS to see what's
happening? (and maybe on CloseGS?)
ShanoJ Well, the last time I used a OS break I got majorly messed up (I
went into GS
ShanoJ Bug, but I was in bank $3B or some such... :( ) I can try again,
though...
JWankerl I use OS breaks fairly regularly - they work for me well enough.
Matt DTS Otherwise, I have no other ideas. Sorry. GA.
ShanoJ Okay, thanks anyway. I'll play with it some more....
AFL Dyfet GO II4ever :)
Apple24evr Just wanted to say, the cookies and milk go in an envelope
tomorrow, Jay. Thanks for coming online.
AFA Gary J (I feel very sorry for the postal service at this point)
JJennings You're welcome. I'll be looking forward to the envelope full of
milk. :)
JWankerl I wanna know what's the "official method" to patch into GS/OS and
trap calls,
JWankerl especially the Quit call so I can write some type of shell to
launch EXE files.
JWankerl GA
ShanoJ Good question!!
AFL Dyfet GA Matt
Matt DTS The "official" method for patching the tool dispatcher
Matt DTS is outlined in IIgs TN #87. I don't know engineering's thoughts
on recommending that method
Matt DTS for the GS/OS vectors or not. Dave?
Dave Lyons There is no special official method for patching the GS/OS
vectors. "Just do it." Be sure you
Dave Lyons have interrupts disabled when you're only "half patched," and be
sure to patch both the stack
Dave Lyons entry ($e100b0) and the inline entry ($e100a8).
Matt DTS (And be sure to check both class 0 and class 1 calls.)
JWankerl Half patched? Like one entry and not the other?
ShanoJ Naw, like bank but not address word...
Matt DTS Like when you've replaced the first two bytes of the vector but
not the last two.
JWankerl Oh okay, got it. Is it safe to remove my patch when I'm done?
Dave Lyons Well, it's not safe to *not* remove your patch when you're done,
so....YES, it's safe. :)
JWankerl Okay. Just wondering what would happen if someone patched over my
patch. :-)
Dave Lyons If someone patches over your patch, their patch will go away when
you take yours out. (Too bad.)
Apple24evr No-- wait---
Apple24evr Can't you patch by copying the old vectors into your code?
Apple24evr That way, it's a chain of tool patches?>
JWankerl I don't think I'm following this now...
Matt DTS Yes, A24Evr, but if someone removes a middle link of the chain,
it falls apart.
ShanoJ Ya, but what if someone is chained to you, and you put your
chainee back into
ShanoJ the vector? Then everything after yours is removed...
JWankerl I change the vectors to point to my code and then re-route my code
to where
JWankerl those vectors were pointing, so if someone patched into my patch
and I removed
JWankerl mine, then that other patch would call me and the machine would
die, right?
Matt DTS Daisy-chaning only works "totally" correct if all the patches are
removed in the order they were
Matt DTS installed.
Apple24evr Oh oh oh... I see... (I love aliases)
Apple24evr heheheh!
ShanoJ Naw, Joe, theirs would never be called...
JWankerl Ahhhhh! I get it. Temporary mind slip. :-)
JWankerl But then what happens when they unpatch?
ShanoJ That's a bigger problem... :)
AFA Gary J Sounds worth testing out :)
JJennings Let's all hop into the monitor and try it. :)
Apple24evr heh
Matt DTS Joe, draw yourself some diagrams with arrows pointing to different
addresses to simulate the
Matt DTS flow of execution. Things will become clearer.
JWankerl Nah, Nifty List is better. :-)
ShanoJ Probably you should test that the current address in the vector
and the one
ShanoJ you're hoping to put in there are the same....
JWankerl Good thought, Jonah. But what should I do if they're different?
Not unpatch?
ShanoJ Ya, then you just assume that something weird has happened and
don't unpatch,
ShanoJ just let all of the calls pass through you unaffected.
JWankerl Yah, I could do that, but I'd have to leave a piece of my program
around -
JWankerl but better than crashing I reckon.
Matt DTS Exciting though patching theory is, I think I'm going to take
off.
ShanoJ Nite Matt!
ShanoJ Ya, probably a bit better than crashing... :)
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Dyfet Goodnight Matt
AFA Gary J Goodnight, Matt.
AFL Dyfet I would also like to thank our guest, Jay Jennings, for stopping
by this
AFL Dyfet evening and putting up with us as long as he has :)....
AFA Gary J Yes, thanks Jay!
Apple24evr Thanks Jay. I laughed, I cried, I wet my pants.
JJennings Thanks, A24Evr. I try. :-P
Apple24evr LOL!
AFA Gary J BTW: I wanted to say that I was skeptical about a disk based
8/16 as well, but
AFA Gary J I must say that I'm very impressed by the format! Very much like
reading the
AFA Gary J magazine.
JJennings Thanks! I've enjoyed being here and hope to keep putting out neat
issues of 8/16-Central for...
JJennings ...a long time to come.
AFL Dyfet As do we!
Apple24evr Yeah! Let's hope for it.