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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
Tuesday, December 11, 1990 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time
Topic: Pascal and C Programming
Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
DanW190 Just so happens that I'm learning Pascal right now..:) Got the
ORCA/Pascal
DanW190 Learn to Program :)
AFL Dyfet Tonight our topic is Pascal and C programming. We
AFL Dyfet will be discussing Complete Pascal (and their new Direct Connect
area) as well
AFL Dyfet as Orca/Pascal, Orca/C and APW C.
AFL Dyfet And, it seems, Allison and Applefest as well :)
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Dyfet Okay, I think our first 'official' question or comment for tonight
was from
AFL Dyfet Dan in regards to Orca/Pascal. How do you like Orca/Pascal so
far?
AFA Gary J Ooops. He got bumped (looks like).
AFL Dyfet (Dan left or bumped...?)
AFA Gary J Must be bumped.
AFL Dyfet Okay, while we're waiting for Dan to return, does anyone else have
any C or
AFL Dyfet Pascal questions for tonight?
AFL Dyfet Go ahead Windrider...
Windrider5 How much of a difference is there between Orca/C and APWC
Windrider5 Is it worth switching?
AFL Dyfet Well, first off, Orca/C is ANSI standard....
AFL Dyfet It also includes code optimization, and generally seems to create
smaller and
AFL Dyfet faster executables.
AFL Dyfet Does anyone else wish to comment on Orca/C vs. APW/C ?
AFA Gary J Also, Orca/C seems to have more support :)
AFA Gary J (As far as updates go, that is)
AFL Dyfet Okay, it seems Walstib has the next question...GA Wal....
Walstib1 What are the advantages of complete pascal? and is it available?
AFL Dyfet Complete Pascal is available seperately and as an upgrade for
existing TML
AFL Dyfet customers. I do not recall the details off-hand, but I am sure
someone in the
AFL Dyfet Complete DC area will be able to help you get ahold of it :). As
to it's
AFL Dyfet advantages over Orca/Pascal, I have not used Orca/Pascal myself,
so if somebody
AFL Dyfet else would wish to share what they have found using both
packages...
Doctor Why Complete vs ORCA or TML vs ORCA?
AFL Dyfet Really Complete vs Orca...
Doctor Why Sorry then. I do have TML and ORCA
AFL Dyfet Okay, how did you feel about each of those then, Why?
Doctor Why Well, TML Pascal is a stand alone application. Where ORCA Pascal
can be linked
Doctor Why with modules coded in other languages.
Doctor Why The people that liked the TML Pascal usually liked the speed of
the compile
Doctor Why and link compared to ORCA. However, the introduction of ZapLink
has reduced the
Doctor Why difference. For me, I feel that ORCA is more versatile, and fits
my style.
Doctor Why GA
Walstib1 thanxs. I have one more quick one ok.
AFL Dyfet Okay Walstib...GA...
Walstib1 I want to make stratego for the gs but can't figure out how to
write the AI for
Walstib1 the computer player does anyone have any ideas where I can turn
to. I have most
Walstib1 everthing else planned out but haven't started making any serious
code for it.
Walstib1 but this seems to be the hardest hurdle(sp?
Walstib1 ) to get over.
AFL Dyfet I know there are a few books out there on general game theory/AI
programming,
AFL Dyfet but most are on the theoretical side....
Matt DTS Look at it this way: If there was a book called "How to write
Stratego for the IIgs", it wouldn't
Matt DTS be nearly as much fun. :)
Walstib1 No doubt Matt :)
AFA Gary J I think you'd pretty much have to have the computer analyse the
situation, much
AFA Gary J as if you were there playing the game. It would have to check
each player
AFA Gary J position, etc. and see if a move is possible in that location,
and if in fact
AFA Gary J it would be a wise move to make. It depends on how you keep the
internals of
AFA Gary J your game, so that's about as specific as I can get :)
AFL Dyfet Much of game theory that I've seen is derived from Chess
programs...basically,
AFL Dyfet you use some method to statiscally come up with a number
representing the
AFL Dyfet relative 'merit' of any arrangement of pieces, and then try to
find arrangement
AFL Dyfet s which have a higher value than the current situation.
AFL Dyfet Then again, some of the best 'smart' war games used rnd( a lot
:)
AFL Dyfet GA Scott...
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Scott A few months back there was a nice article on parallelism in Byte.
I don't know if there is
AFL Scott a GS application for it as most parallel schemes seem to depend on
multi processor configurations. GA
Walstib1 my best bet and easiest way to get it rolling would be to start
out at random
Walstib1 and then as each game piece is exposed and it's value is learned I
could then
Walstib1 set up a look up table which would tell the best probablity of the
game piece
AFL Dyfet Kinda like card counting :)
Walstib1 being succsefull in it's next move.
AFL Dyfet GA Scott...
AFL Scott Isn't this really complicated by the play in Stratego? I mean,
the computer wouldn't
AFL Scott know (just as in real life) what player piece is which? Seems to
me that you would almost have to
AFL Scott be super flexible in the computers move choices based on known
play
AFL Scott patterns, no?
AFL Dyfet It could assign an average value to the unknown peices based on
what's left
AFL Dyfet from what is known.
AFL Scott Done.. Sorry... it was really a question. :)
Walstib1 yeah it would have to interperate the opposing players files in
order to capture the flag. a
Walstib1 but that since when you play now when one of your players hits a
bomb you
Walstib1 would think that the flag is nearby and then could zero in on
that area of
Walstib1 the board
Walstib1 like you would normally do when playing
AFA Gary J That is one strategy (but a "smart" player may also recognize a
decoy :)
Walstib1 afl Dyfet, if I did assign on numbers I think that would take to
long and eat
Walstib1 up to much proccessor time.
AFA Gary J GA, Scott
AFL Scott Perhaps a good program to look at would be Mike Westerfields
implementation of Reversi.
AFL Scott Done.
AFA Gary J Very good suggestion, Scott.
Walstib1 scott that's a good idea I'll look at the code after this I do own
orca pascal
AFA Gary J (It's even in the languages of topic tonight :)
Walstib1 yeah I'm done too, thanxs alot!
AFA Gary J Ok (you still AFK, Dyfet?)
AFA Gary J Let's move on to Nuzz's question. GA, Mike.
Nuzz I have a memory/tool related question. While working with
MidiSynth, I noticed
Nuzz that even after I shut it down and unloaded it, there were a few
handles still
Nuzz active. My question is: Could I do a Disposeall (4023) and could I
delete the
Nuzz id. GA
Nuzz Matt, Dave? anyone?
AFA Gary J GA, Dave :)
Dave Lyons Good question! I was just looking at that the other day, and it
does appear that the
Dave Lyons tool isn't cleaning up after itself properly.
Dave Lyons The problem would be killing handle out from underneath the
Loader, which expects the handle
Dave Lyons only to be purged and not disposed of (the Code handles, at
least).
Dave Lyons I may have to get back to you with a real answer on that, once I
see whether what synthLab is doing
Dave Lyons is a good solution.
Nuzz Synth lab also has a problem in that after you use Synthlab, a
LodOneTool call
Nuzz fails with tool 35
Nuzz without reboot that is
Dave Lyons Ah--that sounds like a good clue that handles *are* being disposed
out from under the Loader.
Dave Lyons Not good...I have an idea that I'll have to try out,
Dave Lyons and I'll get back to you.
Nuzz Ok, just keep in mind that without running Synthlab, you could
load the tool
Nuzz all you want without nasty effects
Dave Lyons Yes, I think synthLab is doing a DisposeAll(4023), which isn't
good--since UnloadOneTool or
Dave Lyons TLShutDown marked the code handles purgable so the Loader can try
to restart it from memory
Dave Lyons later. When the handles actually get disposed and re-used by some
other Memory Manager client, the
Dave Lyons Restart later thinks some other random data is the TOOL035 code.
Dave Lyons Nuzz, please send your comments in to AIIDTS so they realize
something's going on, and I'll come
Dave Lyons up with a suitable workaround.
Nuzz will do Dave. Thanks
Dave Lyons (ga)
AFA Gary J Ok, the question queue is empty! Any other questions this
evening?
AFA Gary J GA, Floyd
AFL Floyd A user has reported a problem with my FileTools CDA and programs
that have MIDI input. It seems that
AFL Floyd with my CDA installed, some of these programs don't work correctly
or crash. Can just the fact that
AFL Floyd a CDA is installed mess up an application? I mean, could this be
my fault somehow?
AFL Floyd ga
AFA Gary J GA, Dave
Dave Lyons Floyd, assuming you don't have any heartbeat tasks,
AFL Floyd (nope)
Dave Lyons don't trash any memory during your "Shutdown" routine,
Dave Lyons don't patch tools or vectors, and the user hasn't entered your CDA
yet,
Dave Lyons it doesn't sound like your fault!
Dave Lyons Very possibly the
AFL Floyd (nope, nope & nope)
Dave Lyons applications that are crashing are sensitive to the placement of
their segments in memory (their
Dave Lyons fault!), like accidentally assuming two segments are in the same
bank. Hard to speculate without
Dave Lyons seeing their code.
Dave Lyons (ga)
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Floyd Okay. Just as I thought. Thanks for confirming though. :)
AFA Gary J Floyd, do you know which programs are having problems?
AFL Floyd Uh, not off the top of my head. I think one was MasterTracks. I'm
not up on computer music stuff. :)
AFA Gary J I have a Midi, but no MasterTracks :) If it's a program I have,
I'll be glad
AFA Gary J to test it out.
AFA Gary J Ok, any other question this evening?
AFL Dyfet Back...
AFA Gary J (FileTools is GREAT, BTW, Floyd :)
Walstib1 Yeah filetools is excellent just what I needed!
AFL Floyd Thanks. :)
AFL Dyfet Okay, do we have any other topics for tonight?
AFL Floyd Has anyone tested FileTools on a network?
AFL Dyfet Or maybe I can bring up Command.COM :)
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Dyfet GA Marty...
AFL Marty Has the file format for HyperCard IIGS documents been released
yet?
Nuzz Marty, I beleive that it will not be made public
AFL Dyfet I don't recall it being in the latest filetype technote....
AFL Dyfet GA Dave...
Dave Lyons It's not out there now, and I don't know whether it's going to be
or not;
Dave Lyons I do know it has a lot in common with the Macintosh HyperCard
stack format, which has not been
Dave Lyons published.
AFL Marty Jim Merritt seemed to indicate at last night's AppleFest chat that
it was
AFL Marty available. Perhaps I misunderstood him.
Dave Lyons However, there is an application
Dave Lyons called HyperMover available from APDA that will convert stacks
from an intermediate Text format
Dave Lyons into HyperCard IIgs stacks. (Not sure if it's two-way or not, but
it's half of the process for
Dave Lyons porting a Macintosh stack to the GS.)
AFL Marty Can HyperMover HyperMove itself?
Dave Lyons Jim Merritt may know more than I do about the
Dave Lyons situation!
Dave Lyons I -think- the GS half of HyperMover is an application rather than
a stack; not sure.
Nuzz Marty, there are 2 HyperMovers. One for Mac, the other for GS
Nuzz both are stacks
Nuzz and its a one way conversion
Dave Lyons Of course, if you've got XCMDs in your Mac stack, you need to
write GS versions of them to port.
AFL Marty Let me rephrase...
AFL Marty Can the Macintosh HyperMover be used on itself to create a stack
which
AFL Marty is capable of converting Macintosh stacks without requiring one
to
AFL Marty own a Macintosh?
Nuzz LOL Marty.... Don't think so
AFA Gary J I understand the entire reasoning of Marty's question :)
Nuzz but it will move a copy of itself... Minus xcmds and such
AFL Dyfet Kinda like Baron Munchauhsan pulling himself up by his own
suspenders :)
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Marty Is there some valid technical reason why a Macintosh is required
just to
AFL Marty convert stacks to HCGS format?
Nuzz wouldn't that be neat though :)
AFL Dyfet Yes it would :)
Doctor Why To sell Macs...
AFL Marty (The operative words there were "valid technical")
Doctor Why :)
Doctor Why To Marketing that might be "valid technical"
AFL Dyfet I would like to see stack movers to go the other direction...
AFL Dyfet Some of us who DONT own Macs may also write neat stacks :)
Dave Lyons (I think at least the Mac HyperMover goes both ways; I don't know
that for sure, though.)
Nuzz don't think the Mac HyperMover reads GS stacks
AFL Scott Interesting!
AFL Scott Apart from using XCMDs one wonders if there is a way to change the
text background (so one can
AFL Scott draw text in color on top of another color).
Nuzz I'll tell you one thing. Martys innovativness is typical of an
Apple II user :)
AFA Gary J Certainly :)
AFL Marty Re: Scott question... for example.. White text on a black
background.
AFL Dyfet GA Marty
AFL Marty Does someone have an answer to Scott's question?
Nuzz which machine are you talking about scott
AFL Marty Talking about HCGS, Mike.
AFL Dyfet What machine has color in HC, Nuzz ;)
Nuzz Oh, yea, guess you are Right.
Nuzz Yes, you can print text over color.
AFL Marty How?
Nuzz Not sure if it works in a field though.
AFL Marty Everything I've tried puts the text against a white background.
Nuzz The text from the tool menu should do that
AFL Scott Same here.. Was trying the Text tool to no avail when porting the
Excellent Stacks.
AFL Marty Tried that. I can't change the background color though.
Nuzz I'll look at that Marty. Not sure if you have to change the
backgroung color of
Nuzz the field
Nuzz Oh, go to background, then paint the whole thing
AFL Dyfet :)
AFL Marty I was hoping for alternate solution :)
AFL Marty (Like the way HyperStudio handles it)
AFA Gary J :)
Nuzz I'll try it and get back to you
AFL Marty Thanks
AFL Dyfet Excellent stacks Scott??
AFL Scott Something we did last year...
AFL Scott For a contest.
AFA Gary J Oh, HyperStudio then.
Nuzz My stacks all look the same :(
AFL Dyfet I have that problem too Nuzz :o
AFL Marty Scott & Marty's Excellent Stacks :)
AFA Gary J They just don't stack up, eh Dyfet? :)
AFL Marty ack!
Nuzz oooh
AFL Dyfet He's my AFA alright :)
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Marty You're such a card, Gary :)
AFA Gary J Hahah :)
Nuzz Welcome to the AII Pun Forum