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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
Tuesday, November 27, 1990 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time
Topic: Open Topic
Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
AFL Dyfet Okay, tonight is our open topic night...this means you can bring
up any
AFL Dyfet development questions or problems you wish, including 'what is Gib
coding' :)
A2Evanglst LOL!!! I am playing with the new version of Genesys trying to see
what I can do with it ;)
Tamira (Just don't break it Gib)
AFL Dyfet Go ahead, Windrider...you have the floor now...
Windrider5 I'm interested in how to have a "floating window"
Windrider5 that is a window that whether or not it is active will appear in
front of all
Windrider5 others
ShanoJ I think you have to not use Task Master OR patch the toolbox so
that other
ShanoJ windows ca't be brought in front of it....
SteveB Well, I looked at the Twilight code, and unfortunately I can't
make a blanker
SteveB bacause CP doesn't suppot that file type. :((((((((
SteveB You can only make Desktop apps, CDA's, and NDA's :(((
ShanoJ Oh I see.... Ya, Complete Pascal won't cut it for Blanker writing.
I think
ShanoJ ORCA/Pascal will do it, though....
SteveB Hm...maybee I should get that... :)
ShanoJ Well, I prefer it, but that's because I like using combinations of
languages,
ShanoJ and I can't do that in Complete Pascal.... :(
SteveB Or, maybe I should try to write one in ASM! Ugg, that would be
dangerous!
SteveB especially me writeing one! :) :)
SteveB Well, Jonah, Vince Cooper said that soon he might be adding some
new
SteveB features to CP, so we'll have to wait.. :)
ShanoJ Well I hope SOMEONE enters. I hear there's only ONE entry in the
programming
ShanoJ division, and it'd be a shame if he won all of those nifty prizes
by default.:(
AFL Dyfet What kinda initialization/launch environment does a blanker
recieve?
AFL Dyfet Does it use a custom initialization with lead pointers, does it
receive a
AFL Dyfet normal S16-like launch with a command string, or what?
ShanoJ Well, I call the blanker from Twilight like this:
ShanoJ pushlong #TextStr
ShanoJ pushlong #MoveFlag
ShanoJ pushword YourID
ShanoJ jsl TheBlanker
ShanoJ Now, if I understand things properly that shows up in a Pascal
header something
ShanoJ like this: procedure MyBlanker(TextStr,
MoveFlag:Longint;MyId:Word); (I'm
ShanoJ not sure exactly what the types are, but that's the general idea.
Thing is,
ShanoJ Complete Pascal won't let you do stand alone procedures, which I
THINK the
ShanoJ ORCA languages do.....
ShanoJ (for writing libraries and the like....)
AFL Dyfet Yes, but any compiler will normally generate a root launch
interface...
Dave Lyons (Do you expect the routine to remove the parameters before
returning? Pascal will.)
SteveB Yes, hopefully in the future.. :)
AFL Dyfet You can create stand alone OBJ files, but NOT loadable/linked
executables with
AFL Dyfet stand alone procedures...linking will bring in the front end
(whether it's an
AFL Dyfet NDA front end, quit-launch handling, or whatever). The result is
a
AFL Dyfet load file with a front end launch environment in front of any
stand alone
AFL Dyfet procedures.
AFL Dyfet Well, let's give Scott here a chance :)...GA Scott...
AFL Scott Is there a problem with the new Imagewriter DC printer driver that
causes it to not stop printing
AFL Scott When the background color is not white?
AFL Scott (ie palette index 0?)
Dave Lyons (Not that I've heard of.)
AFL Scott Ok, this happens with every program I have. Including Allison.
AFL Scott Just wondering.
AFL Dyfet Hmm...will have to test that myself, Scott...
AFL Dyfet GA Windrider...
Windrider5 I'd like to try again with my question about "floating windows"
AFL Dyfet Okay!
Windrider5 How can I have an window in front of other windows without it
being active?
AFL Dyfet GA Dave...
Dave Lyons Yeah, if you call
Dave Lyons TaskMaster you need to turn off the bit that makes it select
Dave Lyons windows that you click on, that's step 1.
Dave Lyons Then you have to manage the "front" window yourself--using
HiliteWindow and SendBehind, rather
Dave Lyons than SelectWindow.
Dave Lyons Note--
Dave Lyons your "windoid" won't *always* be in front--it will just be in
front of your application's other
Dave Lyons windows. Desk Accessory windows will be in front of your windoid
(or else they won't work!).
Dave Lyons And your modal dialogs will probably be in front of your
windoid(s) too.
Dave Lyons Does that help?
Windrider5 yes thank you!
Dave Lyons (Not sure whether anything weird will
Dave Lyons happen when the Real front window gets closed--the
Dave Lyons window manager may try to hilite the windoid for you--but that
probably just means you'll want
Dave Lyons a borderless window & draw your own title-like thing in it.)
Dave Lyons (ga)
AFL Dyfet Okay...
AFL Dyfet Do we have any more questions for the queue tonight?
Coach101 What does everyone think of the Apple II manual that just came out
in the developer mailings?
AFL Dyfet First, who here has received the mailing already?
Matt DTS (Would this be "The Apple II Guide"?)
Coach101 Yep, I think that is the name I was looking for...
Windrider5 Is it being sent to all APDA members?
A2GS It's nice, but it seems more of a book to help shut people up then
to help the
A2GS II...the dealer information in the back is VERY inaccurate.
AFL Marty What about the rest of the information in it?
Coach101 What do you mean by "... shut people up...." ?
Lucky24 I haven't seen the book yet, but I heard it was quite nice. I
don't think
Lucky24 it's nice to talk negatively of this.. It was worked on by a lot
of people
Lucky24 And it does promote the Apple II
AFL Dyfet That is true Lucky...mostly by volunteers...
AFL Dyfet I know there has been a lot said about the dealer info already in
ATB...but
AFL Dyfet there are other parts :)...
Tamira haven't seen it
AFL Dyfet GA Gib...
A2Evanglst As for shutting people up I don't think that is the issue.
A2Evanglst True... Some of the dealer Info has some problems but... and I
will say but.. there are some dealers
A2Evanglst that are listed that do care about the Apple II. And the guide is
a good source of Information for
A2Evanglst people that don't have a knowledgable dealer that is willing to
give some of the basic
A2Evanglst information that is needed by the Apple II person.
A2GS Maybe "shutting people up" was a little harsh....although there is
PLENTY
A2GS of other information offered by the guide....DEALER support is by
FAR the
A2GS most important thing.
Lucky24 I critize Apple plenty, but not for publishing a book on, for and
about the
Lucky24 Apple II.
A2Evanglst IMHO the guide was very well done... and I do know of three
dealers in the Chicago Area that are
A2Evanglst listed and that DO support the Apple II.
AFL Dyfet I wonder why it had to be done by volunteers, and not directly by
Apple,
AFL Dyfet though.
A2Evanglst <---- Mine is one of them <grin>
A2GS Unfortunately....I can say just the opposite about dealers listed
here in N.Y.
AFL Dyfet Let's give Matt the floor for a minute...GA Matt...
Matt DTS First, what exactly was supposedly done by volunteers?
Matt DTS <ga>
A2GS The typesetting :)
Matt DTS Ha ha. I'm serious - what was done by volunteers?
Tamira the marketing??
Coach101 I have not had a chance to go through the book yet but,
Coach101 the mere fact that Apple & Redgate published it was
Matt DTS Dyfet, you're the one who said "I wonder why it had to be done by
volunteers and not by Apple" - WHAT?
AFL Dyfet From what I understand, information and time to produce it mainly
came from
AFL Dyfet user groups and people inside Apple who worked in their spare
time...
AFL Dyfet GA Gib...
A2Evanglst Most of the articles were written by volunteers.
Lucky24 Sometimes this is the best type of information.
Matt DTS Well, this is a good thing. You want knowledgable people with a
little time to spare instead of...
Matt DTS people you hire full-time who haven't been involved before (or
worse, taking people away from
Matt DTS engineering or other pursuits!).
A2Evanglst I would rather have someone with their heart in it than some
marketing geek who was paid to pay
A2Evanglst tribute to the Apple II.
A2GS Yes, but it also has the potential to send people the wrong
message....
A2GS that "since Apple people weren't interested in supporting the II,
it took
A2GS some volunteers to put together the thing" <--- not my own
interpretation,
A2GS just an example.
Matt DTS Second, about the dealer information:
Matt DTS The dealer information was compiled like this:
Matt DTS We put out notices in several places dealers are supposed to pay
attention, such as the AppleGram
Matt DTS newsletter, AppleLink mail, and several other places where dealers
are supposed to look.
Matt DTS The message, posted in these several places, told dealers that if
they were committed to selling,
Matt DTS servicing and supporting the Apple II, send us your dealer
information for publication in the Guide.
Matt DTS If a dealer did not respond favorably to this, they were *NOT*
included. They had to specifically
Matt DTS state they were Apple II dealers to be included. Now, admittedly,
we didn't send out a hit squad
Matt DTS armed with intricate knowledge of low-level ProDOS globals to test
their knowledge, but...
Matt DTS we did not list anyone who did not respond favorably.
AFL Dyfet Okay...that was a reasonable approach, with appearently less
optimal than
AFL Dyfet anticipated results...
A2Evanglst No, as for the guide. IMHO, I believe the guide and the articles
were meant to be informative.
A2Evanglst I don't think anyone here would like the guide if it had been put
together without the valuable help
A2Evanglst of people like the BCS and several people online. I am glad that
they round up just anyone to write
A2Evanglst the articles for the book.
Lucky24 I have yet to see one. Is this supposed to be bundled with the
IIGS?
AFL Dyfet Yes, you are next, actually, Marty :)
AFL Dyfet GA :)
AFL Marty I think it's commendable that people volunteered to do this
work...
AFL Marty it shows an enthusiasm and degree of support from the
grass-roots...
AFL Marty Apple II folks that would be very difficult (if not impossible) to
duplicate
AFL Marty with any other group....
Lucky24 Apple II people tend to be that way
AFL Marty I wonder how many volunteers would have stepped forward had a
similar ...
AFL Marty publication been planned for the Macintosh.
AFL Marty done
AFL Dyfet Okay...Jonah, you have the floor now...GA...
ShanoJ Okay, excuse my ignorance but how did people get this thing and,
more
ShanoJ importanly, how do _I_ get a copy. :)
Coach101 I got my copy in the November Apple Partner's mailing...
Coach101 Maybe Matt can answer as to how and when other copies will be
available...
Matt DTS You should be able to get a copy from your local Apple dealer, II
or not.
Matt DTS The Apple part number, for the truly obstinate, is A0243LL/A.
AFL Dyfet :)
AFL Dyfet Okay....GA A2....
A2GS Okay...
A2GS I'm just curious as to how some of the really anti-II dealers
ended up getting
A2GS into the book if only those which at least answered favorably
ended up in the
A2GS book.
AFL Dyfet I think Matt pretty much explained this....GA Matt...
AFL Scott What does that have to with development, A2??
Matt DTS We asked dealers to tell us if they were committed to selling,
servicing and supporting the Apple II.
Matt DTS If they wrote back and said "we are", then they were included.
Otherwise they were not. <GA>
A2GS what about if they said "we are....not"?
Matt DTS They were not included.
Matt DTS Actual people who actually read and comprehend English sorted
through all the replies, listing
Matt DTS only the ones who responded as we intended. <GA>
AFL Dyfet I suspect the dealers misunderstood the purpose of the guide....
A2GS o.k. I just don't think dealers who made it into the book who
ended up being
A2GS clear anti-II companies are going to help the II...are more likely
to hurt it..
A2GS but I'm not blaming Apple specifically for those dealers who got
in, Apple
A2GS can't pay a personal visit to everyone who answered.
AFL Dyfet Some may have viewed it as a promotional opertunity, a chance to
get warm
AFL Dyfet bodies, any bodies, into their stores...
AFL Marty (But you did criticize Apple for allowing it to be a volunteer
effort.)
Matt DTS (May I request we move on to any development questions that may be
waiting?)
AFL Dyfet But I think this has been debated enough in ATB already....
AFL Dyfet Okay, ShrinkIt had the next question, being what changes people
would like to
AFL Dyfet see in Finder....GA Matt...
Matt DTS May I (again, humbly) request that we get to the dev questions
before the suggestions?
Matt DTS I know everyone has great Finder ideas and Andy's like a Finder
Sponge (whatever that is), but I'd
Matt DTS like to help the programmers first. (don't hurt me, Andy)
AFL Dyfet Okay Matt...:)
Lucky24 Shrinkit sponge, you mean
AFL Dyfet I actually was going to add 'keep it short'...but we can move to
A2's question
AFL Dyfet first :)
HeadCase Finder binder?
Matt DTS (Is he still there?)
Coach101 BTW.... Matt & Humility.... On the same line :)
ShrinkIt No, actually, I was over in Swihart's cube for a moment... but
please, do go on -- what stuff
ShrinkIt does everyone want done to the Finder? (within reason, which I'll
leave up to you)
AFL Dyfet (We'll get to you, Andy :)
A2GS Sorry to return to the previous topic...
A2GS but I would just like to know if Apple themselves are making
schools aware that
A2GS this book exists....a young friend of mines school has II's and
the teacher
A2GS is a proclaimed II enthusist, yet he was surprised when shown the
book and
A2GS admitted never hearing about it.
A2GS GA
Matt DTS Education reps can give it to schools, and they can get it from
dealers just like anyone else.
Matt DTS However, if you're asking if we're going to drop thousands of
copies on the NEA convention from a
Matt DTS helicopter or something like that, I don't think so. Most Apple
reps should give it to schools with
Matt DTS large numbers of Apple IIs. <GA>
Dave Lyons (Why not? Let's propaganda-bomb the NEA.)
A2GS Nope...how about an ad JUST for the book in an edu-mag like k-12
A2GS I think that's reasonable.
Matt DTS I don't know, and I really don't think the development conference
is the appropriate place
Matt DTS to discuss it (since none of the people who do know are likely to
show up). GA.
AFL Dyfet Okay, Scott has the floor now...GA Scott....
A2GS I agree....but while we're on the topic....
A2GS never mind
AFL Scott Ok... Am I correct in this observation: Quickdraw through the
Print Manager
AFL Scott only uses palette zero?
Matt DTS Unless otherwise instructed through printer-driver specific
instructions, yes.
Matt DTS (GA)
AFL Scott Ok... Thanks.
AFL Scott Done.
Dave Lyons (Or unless the driver looks at the MasterSCB or other SCBs??)
Coach101 That was quick....
Matt DTS Most drivers won't do that, Dave:
Dave Lyons (OK, cool.)
AFL Scott I've noted that, too..:) Thanks for the observation, Dave!:)
Matt DTS Since the normal print loop isn't associated with a given pixel
map (therefore no SCBs), and even
Matt DTS PrPixelMap is only a pixel map, with no way to indicate SCBs,
there's really nothing to do but
Matt DTS look at the Master SCB, which most printer drivers don't do - they
use palette zero.
Matt DTS The IW drivers (old and new) have ways to use different SCBs, but
you have to work at them.
Matt DTS (GA)
AFL Scott Suppose you pass a grafPort to the PrOpenDoc call that specifies a
different
AFL Scott palette in the SCB... I tried this last night and it didn't work,
so you're
AFL Scott correct, I guess... %)
Matt DTS Most printer drivers will only use grafPort parameters, not any
attached pixel maps. In fact,
Matt DTS those that record pictures for later imaging specifically set the
portRect to be empty so no
Matt DTS actual drawing will occur.
Matt DTS (Now it might work if you do it on PrPicFile, but I don't know for
sure. It's shaky at best.)
AFL Scott That doesn't work... just thought I'd let you know.:)
AFL Scott Done!:)
Matt DTS Best to use the real ways to do it (with the structure in the old
driver and the picComment in
Matt DTS the new driver.)
AFL Dyfet GA Jonah...
ShanoJ Matt, quick question: could you point me in the direction of info
on how to
ShanoJ make the printer driver use more than one palette per picture? You
alluded to
ShanoJ this up above, I think....
Matt DTS Apple IIgs TN #97, Picture Comments and Printing. It discusses
the picComments used by the new IW
Matt DTS and IW LQ drivers, as well as the PostScript (tm) comments used by
the LaserWriter driver. GA.
ShanoJ Okay, thanks (I KNEW you'd tell me to read a tech note.... :) GA
AFL Dyfet Okay....GA Parik, you have the floor now...(poor Andy will miss
our Finder
AFL Dyfet comments...)
AFA Parik when you license a copy of system software (for a product), can
you dist. the
AFA Parik system software online? ga
Matt DTS NO!
Matt DTS Or Maybe.
AFL Dyfet GA Coach :)...Maybe?? :)
Matt DTS It really depends, I believe, on whether or not you're
distributing your product online.
Matt DTS If you're getting money from people for the express purpose of
downloading SSW, then you have to have
Matt DTS an Electronic License, which costs a little more money (or a LOT
more if you're doing Mac stuff).
Matt DTS It's best to ask Software Licensing at Apple such questions,
because they don't get it wrong. :)
AFA Parik I have a "stupid" synthlab player, I (or an AMS staff member)
wants to license
AFA Parik MidiSynth and distribute the tool to get around the problem.
AFL Dyfet I have seen several shareware products distributed with GS/OS in a
packed
AFL Dyfet bootable disk archive...
Matt DTS Dyfet, those are not allowed unless the system software is
licensed, which it often isn't for
Matt DTS shareware.
Coach101 Matt, If you have a license to distribute the system sofware with
your software, and
Coach101 if you distribute your software electronically, it *might* be that
you could then also
Coach101 distribute the system software electronically (solely for use
Coach101 with the software that you are distributing)...
Matt DTS Coach: True, but I don't know for certain and it's better to be
safe than litigated. :)
Matt DTS You can reach Software Licensing at (408) 974-4667 and they'll
tell you the Straight Dope.
AFA Parik zanks. ga
AFL Dyfet All cases so far seem to be 'minimal' systems with just the
tools/system files
AFL Dyfet needed to boot the shareware application in question...
Coach101 Yeah, but its so much fun to see a lawyer get red in the
face....
Matt DTS All of the system's copyrighted, not just the parts you don't need
to run their applications. :)
AFL Dyfet GA Scott
AFL Scott This is for Nuzz....
AFA Parik so should we all close our eyes?
Nuzz huh
AFL Scott I know how many headaches you must have had when you wrote GDL...
Simple
AFL Scott printing can be a pain. :)
Nuzz Keep telling yourself "The Print Manager is my friend"
AFA Parik darn, I thought you were going to ask him to marry you or
something.
AFL Scott No way! I've met him!:)
AFL Dyfet We can always start a rumor, Parik :)
Nuzz Scott is always just looking at pictures
ShanoJ Does that mean advanced printing ISN'T a pain, Scott? :)
AFL Scott No, that means I don't want to think about advanced printing!:)
AFA Parik (argh...ariel...they dumped the II...:(((
AFL Dyfet Hardly a note I would want to close the log on...
AFL Scott No loss, IMHO... They never sent me 4 issues of 8-16 anyway.
AFL Scott I got all the disks, never the paper.
AFA Parik but ross was a neat guy. + Note -- umm... ummm... SSSi is still
in business!:)
AFL Dyfet I still prefer paper...call me old fashioned :)
AFA Parik and of course, we must (allison) subliminally (buy) plug (allison)
products.
Coach101 Paper yes... Who has a keyboard and monitor in the John
anyway?
AFL Scott Me too... it's easy to find magazines, but all blue splined disks
look alike
AFL Scott from the top.
AFL Scott (Unless you use GDL!)
AFA Parik Do you prefer paper tnotes or file?
ShanoJ Ya, I'd like paper too. Especially since I'm going to be writing
for them. :)
AFA Parik <-- prefers disk vastly
ShanoJ It looks more impressive if it's on paper.... :)
AFA Parik you guys must have HUGE houses!
Nuzz Wait till you see our new HDL (Hard Drive Labeler)
AFL Scott Paper... That way I can use the notebook as a lap warmer...:)
AFL Dyfet I do have a HUGE house :)
AFL Scott ROTFL!:)
AFL Scott <--- Has a big mess.