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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
Tuesday, May 22, 1990 10:00 p.m. eastern time
Topic: Publishing Software
Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
AFL Dyfet Okay, I guess we are are ready to get started...Welcome to the
Apple II
AFL Dyfet Development Forum. Tonight our topic is publishing software. We
will be using
AFL Dyfet protocol as needed :)...The floor is now open for discussion
:)...
AFL Dyfet Incidently, who here tonight has already had software published?
AFL Dyfet (or published on their own)
WinkieJim <---me
SPW published by a commercial company?
AFA Gary J <-me
Nuzz <Me too>
Windrider5 <-- me
Airship <====
Dave Lyons <-- Me (P8CDA, Roger Wagner)
AFL Dyfet Well, Dave, you can include a few other things, I am sure :)
Dave Lyons <-- Shareware, too.
IPatrickI <-- No published software. (But working on something...)
Orcas Dyfet: all these guys have bulges under their overcoats; where
does the
Orcas classic 'guy with an idea' go?
AFL Dyfet That is a very good question, Orcas....
AFA Parik what kind of idea? (word processor, ?)
Orcas Tax software here.
AFA Parik if anyone knows a good publisher for AII games, email Brian
Greenstone. he
AFA Parik can't find a publisher for his newest game. :(
SPW :::ducking:::--do companies WANT to publish Apple ][ software
anymore?
Nuzz I can speak for Triad, we are looking for unique software to
publish
IPatrickI I'm curious. Do people pay for shareware? (I mean do they mail
the check?)
Tamira I do
WinkieJim Patrick...some do...most don't
SPW make it delete itself in a week....
WinkieJim SPW, they could just D/L it again and make multiple copies....
WinkieJim (yes...i've thought of that :) :)
AFL Dyfet Since so many here have, I am not sure who to focus on tonight
:)...Let's start
AFL Dyfet with shareware...for our shareware people here, how successful has
this been
AFL Dyfet for you?
Airship 1 - 5% seems typical. At least for my stuff.
Airship <=- 21 returns for Tonight's Sky GS from 2 national networks and 2
SW publisher
DL Davies About 5% do, otherwise Todd Wood and I would be very wealthy
WinkieJim <---about 12 people have paid for my Super Info NDA... my biggest
seller :(
AFA Parik greenstone has made $2400 so far on his games. incentive ;)
IPatrickI How long did he work on them?
AFA Gary J 24 hours :)
DL Davies hehe
AFA Parik [his shareware games. varied times Patrick. 4-6 games. Xenocide
made more]
WinkieJim Well he claims some of them as 24-hour games....
DL Davies Todd and I made about $500-$600 off all our card games
AFL Dyfet I actually topped the $500 mark on FunKEYS last week...DL, how has
your
AFL Dyfet shareware done?
Tamira in how long, David?? 2 yrs??
AFL Dyfet Yes, Tamira, in about 1 or so yrs...:)
Tamira :>....never get rich that way :>
Dave Lyons I'm here--
Dave Lyons sorry. My three products
Dave Lyons (Nifty List, Davex, and DIcEd) have sold on the order of 150
copies each
Dave Lyons over the last couple years (er...total, not per year). I bet if
I'd
Dave Lyons actually managed to release updates in a long period where I
didn't, it'd be a bit better.
Dave Lyons To answer a prev. question, Yes, some people definitely do send
Dave Lyons in their shareware fees, but not
Dave Lyons everybody. Don't have too much idea how many cheaters are out
there, but I'm pretty sure they
Dave Lyons at least outnumber the honest folks.
Tamira by 10 to 1
SPW there needs to be a way to make people pay for shareware- like
automatic
SPW deletion or something
AFA Parik i like floyd zinks method
AFA Gary J I like Floyd's
AFA Parik :)
AFA Gary J Yes... Parik :)
Orcas What's Zink's method?
Airship Which is????
AFA Gary J Floyd has an "annoying window" that
AFA Gary J pops up many times throughout the program.
AFA Gary J If you send in the shareware fee, he'll give you the password
to
AFA Gary J decrypt a version WITHOUT the "annoying window" :)
AFA Gary J (Or, he'll send you a disk with the current version :)
SPW you can always dissassemble it and remove the window...
AFA Parik people w/ knowledge to disassemble usually don't cheat.
Dave Lyons (Yes, but most people won't or don't know how, SPW.)
AFL Dyfet Floyd's method is actually one I've seen used a lot in some form
recently.
AFL Dyfet The usual method is to simply send a 'non-annoying' copy to
registered users.
SPW or only send em' a demo version
AFA Gary J Demo versions don't always tell the whole story, though.
WinkieJim I tried Demo ware for my Pyramid GS game...might have to reduce
the money a
WinkieJim bit to sell it better....
AFL Dyfet I have always felt there is some resistance to
'demo/shareware'...
SPW true
Airship I'm about to release V3.0 of my TSGS program...I was considering
some kind of
Airship limitaions in the release version...
Airship In my case the software needs the date, I was considering just
limiting it to
Airship 1990 dates.
Airship All other features woukd work fine.
Tamira got Paint demo for the Mac....and wish they had sent SOME
documentation with it.....some things are the
Tamira same as on the II but a lot is different....that's why I hate
demos
Orcas Anybody startup themselves? I've got a shell company, but no idea
of startup $
Nuzz Orcas, the $ required really depends on your advertizing budget,
and how deep
Nuzz you want to take it.
Orcas Nuz, anybody: any good marketing studies? Who's got the best data
base
Orcas of databases, so to speak. Sorr for walking on you, Dyfet.
AFL Dyfet In regards to Orcas question, I started HyperDyne Software on
about $10000 and
AFL Dyfet initial sales money from Command.COM...I ended up being very
conservative with
AFL Dyfet advertising (some said stingy :), and ended up doing consulting
instead :).
WinkieJim <---Started LazarWare (unofficial name only use it privatly) with
no cash...
WinkieJim ...of couse I'm getting no cash return :) :) :)
Orcas That's good info, Dyfet. Thanks.
AFL Dyfet That's okay, Orcas...we (HyperDyne) did try to activily sell a
product line at
AFL Dyfet one point, including Bbasic // (which will soon be available
shareware), as
AFL Dyfet well as some Command.COM add-on products...the effort did pretty
much pay for
AFL Dyfet itself, and saw enough profit at it's peek to keep me fed and
housed for about
AFL Dyfet a year :).
AFA Gary J That's encouraging :)
WinkieJim Alas, the Apple II market has changed...
BCS Frank How so?
Orcas OK; $10,000 startup, a good product, and decent marketing, any
quibble with
Orcas this summary?
IPatrickI (Not here)
AFA Parik tech support, 1-800 lines, advertising (lots of $), trade
shows...
AFA Gary J ...an AO location in Industry Connection..
AFA Gary J :)
BCS Frank ... cover of Byte...
Orcas Parik: yeah, that would be nice, but.... :)
Tamira LOL...going for your lungs??????
AFL Dyfet That may work for an individual, or one/two man operation, at
best, I suspect
AFL Dyfet :)...I recently have done very well in consulting...much better
than when we
AFL Dyfet were in publishing :)
AFL Dyfet Who here has had recent experiance with 'larger' publishing groups
(as in last
AFL Dyfet 6-12 months)?
AFA Parik better meet deadlines or you're going through a meat-grinder. :)
WinkieJim Parik, don't say things like that...I'vegot a deadline at the end
of May!@ :)
Orcas Anybody know how these church-management and recipe people and all
that fringe
Orcas crowd do?
AFL Dyfet Deadlines :), I recall those well :)...As to niche markets, like
church-
AFL Dyfet management, there is a need for such software, and often the niche
markets
AFL Dyfet are large enough to support a few small companies well...
Orcas My sentiments, too, Dyfet; better to sell wiper blades than the
whole car..:)
AFL Dyfet I'm in a niche market of sorts right now...industrial
automation...Ink Jet/
AFL Dyfet Magnetics specifically, for Rand McNally...
Orcas Dyfet: Consultant basis?
AFL Dyfet Yes, basically, Orcas...we supply firmware/micro-controllers for
encoding
AFL Dyfet lines :).
Orcas So, ought the 'guy with an idea' approach the large houses? If
so, how?
AFL Dyfet As to approaching larger houses, often they are looking for
complete, or nearly
AFL Dyfet complete products. Furthermore, they often have exclusive
arrangements, hence
AFL Dyfet I wouldn't suggest approaching Beagle with a communications
program, since they
AFL Dyfet already have Point-to-Point, for example :).
Orcas Some wuld say that's a good reason TO approach them with one, but
that's
Orcas another topic. Is there a good guide to the specialties of the
bigger houses?
AFL Dyfet Orcas, it's more than likely that Beagle, for example, has a
contract with
AFL Dyfet Gary that says Beagle will not sell another competing product
while they are
AFL Dyfet selling his...this is often how these things work...
Matt DTS (That's not real likely, since Beagle also sells Timeout Telecom,
BTW.)
Orcas Understood, Dyfett; I was just reacting to my PTP experience early
on. :)
AFL Dyfet Matt, not all contracts are exclusive, true, but all of the ones I
have seen
AFL Dyfet have been...Also, Timeout Telecomm is an Appleworks add-on, is it
not? Perhaps
AFL Dyfet different enough, but selling ProTerm would not be :)
Orcas Right; Telecomm is not direct competition for PTP.
Orcas Seriously though, is there a good guide to the specialties, who's
looking for
Orcas what?
Coach101 Orcas has a very good question... Does anyone have enough
information/experience to reply?
Orcas Repeating: anybody know who's got a good guide to what software
houses are
Orcas looking for what?
AFL Dyfet We are using PROTOCOL starting NOW *crack*...the floor is now
being opened for
AFL Dyfet replies to Orca's question!
AFL Dyfet GA Parik, you have the floor now...
AFA Parik pick up GS buyers guide. includes almost all GS publishers. call
each one. ga
Nuzz There is no "Official" guide, Orcas. I think the best bet is look
through the
Nuzz mags, and see what kind of software the houses are already
oFFering
AFL Dyfet Well, Apple has, in the past, provided such information to
registered
AFL Dyfet developers along with marketing information, lists of magazines
and what
AFL Dyfet markets they cover, lists of users groups, etc.
Nuzz Apple's list is somewhat dated.
Orcas <---Done; good answers; thanks all.
AFL Dyfet As Nuzz pointed out, Apple's list is currently outdated, but at
the time I
AFL Dyfet was using it, it was VERY helpful.
BCS Frank Sounds like a niche for a "Writer's Market" type publication.
Coach101 :)
Orcas Good idea Frank: any regional software--farming=midwest, etc?
Nuzz Unfortunatly, there isn't enough software houses for a Writer
Market type thing
BCS Frank ... a very thin book. :)
Nuzz System 5.0 killed my book idea "101 things to do while your GS
loads"
AFL Dyfet :)...now there's only time for one or 2, Nuzz :)
AFA Gary J :)
HyperRam It still takes 2 minutes to load.
BCS Frank Nuzz, retitle ... while my HD backs up.
Coach101 But with ProSel backups, your reading is constantly interrupted to
change diskettes]
AFL Dyfet Any further comments or new questions out there for tonight?
A2GS I got a programming Q, I hope no one minds if I ask it :)
A2GS I ran SoundSmith which plays Sinthesized Music and while it was
playing a tune
A2GS I went into the Control Panel, But instead of the Music stopping
(eventually)
A2GS the system continued to produce synthesized music even though I
was in the CP!!
AFA Gary J A2GS: See Parik's new CDA in AUT
AFA Gary J (BackGround Music)
A2GS Why?? I could only come up with one answer...anyone have
suggetsions on
A2GS how it works?
AFA Parik (hold on a sec a2gs)
A2GS Gary, which CDA is it?
AFA Gary J Background Music
AFA Gary J (Plays SoundSmith, etc. songs in the background while you do
other stuff)
A2GS Thank you.
WinkieJim When you send a digitized sound file to the Sound tools to start
playing...
WinkieJim it does just that...plays it till it ends...the CPu doesn't care
if it's playin
WinkieJim or not...the sound chip takes care of it...
AFA Parik (ok, i've written my own soundsmith routines [and soundsmith
toolset coming
AFA Parik rsn :)]. Soundsmith uses gen #15 as interrupt-mode, so it runs in
interrupt
AFA Parik mode)
A2GS I know that....But when you go to the CP interrupts are shutoff by
the IM.
AFA Parik no!
A2GS No?? Interrupts are not shutoff?
A2GS The CP restores interrupts?
Matt DTS If the Control Panel shut down interrupts, AppleTalk and other
things would die.
SPW why can't the GS play music while the disk is running. The AMiga
can.....
Matt DTS CP has no reason to disable interrupts so it doesn't, like all
cool programs. :)
A2GS Oh....that answers my Q...Thanx Parik, Matt.
AFA Gary J It can, SPW
SPW how?
A2GS SPW...it can!!
AFA Gary J Try Parik's CDA :)
HyperRam Why does the mouse slow down too? :)
A2GS When during Disk Access??,Hyp
HyperRam With 3.5's.
HyperRam Mouse or sound never slows down with a HD but with
3.5s..sllllooowwww..
SPW I have only seen it done once- on Tomahawk
WinkieJim SPw, it has to do with the fact that 3.5 and 5.25 reads and writes
are
WinkieJim sensitive to timing....
WinkieJim any interrupts durring them would screw timeing up...
WinkieJim HD's work ok though.
A2GS Because when the system does Disk Access's the system constantly
turns on and
A2GS off interrupts and since the mouse cursor is drawn based on
interrupt
A2GS occurances...it is only drawn when an interrupt occurs and
interrupts are
A2GS active at the same time.
SPW so you have to write music compatable with the disk timing?
SPW or disk timing compatable with the music?
A2GS Nope.
WinkieJim SPW, I ran into that prob with a program I wrote./..started a
sound and the
WinkieJim went to load toolsets....on my HD it worked great...when i tested
on 3.5
WinkieJim it wsn;t so good...
HyperRam I noticed my friends ST's mouse never slowed down with 3.5 access.
:)
A2GS SPW, the drive can be going and a sound playing at the same time,
with
A2GS interrupts active or non-active, makes no difference.
SPW anyone here program anything besides an Apple?
AFA Gary J yes
SPW what?
Coach101 yes
BCS Frank PDP-8. :)
AFA Parik what is there besides an apple?
IPatrickI IBM
SPW basic? assembly?
AFL Dyfet I prefer C myself :)
AFA Gary J IBM and TI mini
Coach101 VME systems, VAX systems, large (non-IBM) mainframes
IPatrickI Pascal, (Learning C)
IPatrickI IBM (4341 VM/cms) Mainframe (Cobol)
SPW hmm...it seems as if all of you have computer jobs. Am I right?
IPatrickI <-- Lab Assistant.
BCS Frank kind of... CNC machinist.
AFA Gary J yes, computer job
SPW hmmm...I think I'm a little out-aged....
Orcas SPW: age doesn't matter! Look at that kid Bill Gates! :)
SPW anyone seen the new Apple ][gs buyers guide?
AFA Parik gah, the new BG is sooo thin! pitiful. :(
SPW Apple will support the ][ but how about software and hardware
companies?
Nuzz But who's going to support the software companies, that's the
question
SPW true Nuzz- too many pirates in the Apple ][ world
Coach101 Too many pirates -- Effect is just more noticeable in a smaller
marketplace
AFA Gary J SPW, too many pirates in ANY computer world.
Coach101 RIGHT!!!!
Nuzz Agreed Coach
AFA Gary J (not limited to Apple's, by any means)
AFL Dyfet That is very true, Coach and Gary!
BCS Frank Even the non-computer world, whereever that is.
Coach101 As we all take our righteous stands on piracy, have you ever taped
a record/cd for a friend?
A GibberFC Yeah... It is a moral Issue....
Orcas Right, Gary: I get more offers of stuff for my IBM than my
Apple.
WinkieJim But it hurts the Apple II market more, because of the decreass in
the people
WinkieJim buying new software...
A GibberFC Frankly... People have to change their attitudes... Piracy is on
par with Copying Movies
SPW Cd's and tapes can't be copied thousands of times from one
source
Nuzz I have a shareware question. Are we going to see a New Nifty
List?
AFA Gary J Yeah, good question, Nuzz. :)
Nuzz < Putting someone on the spot>
AFA Gary J (nudging Dave Lyons...)
Coach101 Lets all lobby Matt to give Dave time off (without pay of course)
to get a new copy out :)
AFL Dyfet I know Dave is ALWAYS working on a new version when he gets a
chance :)
Dave Lyons (Oops...pay attention, me.)
Orcas Time off better be WITH pay, or I can help get him a better deal.
:)
Dave Lyons I have 2.92 ready to ship...I really need to have
Dave Lyons somebody single-click me and hit Duplicate a few times, and then
I'd ask
Dave Lyons "Copy of Dave" to duplicate disks and "Copy of Copy of Dave" to
stuff envelopes....
Dave Lyons I'll go ahead and upload it here, considering it's already about
to appear on GEnie anyway.
AFA Gary J Yes, just upload it, Dave!
AFL Dyfet Okay, do we have any more comments/questions for tonight's offical
topic?
Orcas A thousand, Dyfet, but I'd better quit askin' and start sellin'.
Thanks!!!
AFL Dyfet What kind of project are you working on, Orcas?
Orcas Tax templates (coupla State income tax forms), an A'works
indexer...but some-
Orcas body beat me to market on the latter. :(
AFL Dyfet There are a couple of people doing A'works templates/databases out
there...
Orcas Apparently my stuff finds people: I wrote the PD AppleWorks
footnoting macros.
Orcas Yeah, I've been corresponding with the fella in New York that does
the tax
Orcas stuff, and another in California. Good people, good products.