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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
November 21, 1989 10:00 pm eastern time
Topic: Apple IIGS System Software 5.0.2
Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
AFL Dyfet Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum. Tonight's topic is
System Software 5.0.2
AFL Dyfet We'll be using PROTOCOL this evening, so if you have a question,
type a "?"
AFL Dyfet on a line by itself, or if you have a comment on the current
topic, type a "!"
AFL Dyfet on a line by itself.
AFL Dyfet Okay, Mac Hater, you have the floor now :)
Mac Hater Is 5.03 coming out soon? There are still a few bugs in 5.02
AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
Matt DTS Apple has announced no plans for any system software beyond 5.0.2.
(Of course, they've said...
Matt DTS ...there will *be* some, but no specifics.) GA.
Mac Hater Apple does recognize the bugs though, right? done
AFL Dyfet I am sure that DTS continues to catalog any new bug reports as
before, and so I
AFL Dyfet am sure that they are at least fully aware of what problems may
exist.
Mac Hater sounds good. ga
AFL Dyfet I would add that if anyone does have any bugs to report with
System Software
AFL Dyfet 5.02, they should be contacting Apple. Never assume all bugs are
already
AFL Dyfet known by them :).
AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe that the next question is from Dwight. You have
the floor now.
DwightW1 we still are unable to hook to a scanner with the new GS/OS
software? ga.
AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
Matt DTS Actually, it's only with 5.0 and later that you *can* hook a
scanner up; previous versions of the
Matt DTS SCSI drivers would not recognize things other than hard disks or
CD-ROMs. However, Apple has not
Matt DTS supplied a scanner driver at this point. (But it is now possible
to write one.)
Matt DTS 5.0.2 has no new features over 5.0. It is merely a maintenance
release. See GS/OS Technical Note #1
Matt DTS for all the details. GA.
DwightW1 i see... now for the driver..........
DwightW1 ga
AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next question is from GS Matt..GA Matt...
GS Matt Are there any plans to make the GS tools re-entrant in upcoming
versions...
GS Matt ...to allow programs like MultiFinder GS to be written? ga
AFL Dyfet Strange this would be brought up...GA Matt...I also have a few
comments to add.
Matt DTS Not that anything I say *would* discourage speculation <sigh>, but
Apple people really can't...
Matt DTS ...comment on this one way or another, because either way would
imply that we are or aren't going
Matt DTS to do something. GA.
AFL Dyfet GA Dave...
Dave Lyons I can't comment about future plans either, but I should note
that
Dave Lyons a MultiFinder sort of thing does not require reentrancy of the
usual
Dave Lyons sort (the kind you have to worry about w/ toolbox calls during
interrupts). ga
AFL Dyfet To further elaborate on Dave's comments, re-entrancy itself is NOT
a real
AFL Dyfet limitation to multi-tasking, in general. It only represents a
slight
AFL Dyfet 'challenge' to overcome. I was, and may still, be putting up a
short series of
AFL Dyfet articles related to multi-tasking within the GS environment as it
exists
AFL Dyfet today.
GS Matt Okay guys...(dreams of MultiFinder GS and Outline Fonts in System
6.0.)...ga!
AFL Dyfet Okay, does anyone else have any questions or comments at this
point? That
AFL Dyfet Queue is looking awfully empty...
AFL Dyfet Okay, Windrider, GA, you have the floor now.
Windrider5 for the novice .. could you define re-entrancy and multi-tasking
AFL Dyfet Multi-tasking means, in the simplest sense, that your machine
would be doing
AFL Dyfet two or more things at the same time. In some operating systems,
for example,
AFL Dyfet the user can run multiple applications simulataneously, with
system resources
AFL Dyfet and CPU time devided up for each running application. Maybe Coach
would do
AFL Dyfet better at explaining this :)..GA Coach...
Coach101 Chicken :) ...
AFL Dyfet :)
Coach101 Well from a large system (hold the boos) point of view there is a
very
Coach101 fine line between multi-tasking and timesharing. But both (in a
single
Coach101 cpu) system involve, as Dyfet said, having the system working on
more than
Coach101 one task "sort-of" simultaneously. With a single CPU the machine
is, at
Coach101 any finite instant in time, working on only one task. But if the
machine
Coach101 switches tasks fast enough and if one of the tasks has a lot of
idle
Coach101 time (like the time it takes a user to type, or think of what to
type
Coach101 or click) then the illusion of the machine doing two things at
once is
Coach101 given to the user. .... Re-entrancy...
Coach101 When you write a subroutine/function/procedure you will store
various
Coach101 quantities in various locations. Now, if your code were to be
re-entered,
Coach101 which means while you are executing your code the system switches
tasks
Coach101 and enters your code again at the beginning, then you code "could"
get
Coach101 confused as to the value of a variable; like, which incarnation of
the
Coach101 variable MyIndex is to be used. This is a particular problem
with
Coach101 "static" variables and almost never a problem with auto variables.
Here
Coach101 again there is a fine line between the definitions of "re-entrant"
and
Coach101 "recursive". Recursive means that a function/procedure is allowed
to call
Coach101 itself (think of a "factorial" function for a good example).
Re-entrancy
Coach101 means that the function can be re-entered at any time and from
anywhere...
Coach101 I hope I was not too wordy and helped with my explanation....
ga
AFL Dyfet That is a very good explanation, Coach :)...Okay, I see the Queue
is once
AFL Dyfet again empty, and just waiting for more comments or questions :)
Coach101 Yeah, my fingers are all warmed up now too :)
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Dyfet Okay, Coach, you have the floor now...
Coach101 Lets see if I can phrase this such that Matt will not have to hit
his
Coach101 macro about unannounced products, ideas, etc....
Coach101 Apple has given us 5.0 (and its derivatives) which was a major
departure
Coach101 and improvement over P16 and GS/OS 4.0. If I draw a parallel to
the
Coach101 ProDos-8 environment (where *nothing* other than fixes is done),
would it be
Coach101 safe to assume that GS/OS has not yet reached that plateau. Put
another
Coach101 way, should one expect that some more major software things are a
distinct
Coach101 possibility in the future? ga
AFL Dyfet There have been a number of things hinted at in recent Apple II
Technotes
AFL Dyfet already, such as a desire to produce communication drivers...I see
Matt would
AFL Dyfet like to add some comments, GA Matt :)
Matt DTS 1) GS/OS is logically much more extensible (through FSTs and
drivers) than P8 ever was.
Matt DTS 2) P8 is also a special case. It is occupying nearly all the
memory it has reserved in the 64K
Matt DTS space, and adding new features would be difficult. GS/OS does not
have this problem yet, as long as
Matt DTS Apple is willing to make future versions require a larger base
system if necessary.
Matt DTS I don't think the IIgs System Software is at a point where no more
changes *can* be made without
Matt DTS serious problems, which is where ProDOS 8 currently sits. GA.
Coach101 Thank you...
AFA Gary J there's a safe answer :)
Coach101 But always read between the lines.... He could have said.....
AFL Dyfet One can get a strong indication as to some areas that Apple has
had some
AFL Dyfet interest in future enhancements from things they have said and
published in
AFL Dyfet tech notes and other sources.
AFA Gary J Yes. Reading between the lines.. the future of the Apple II
looks bright.
AFL Dyfet GA Coach...you have the floor again...
Coach101 Apple is currently pushing both CD-Rom and Object Oriented
Programming
Coach101 pretty heavy in the Mac area. The CD-Rom player will also work on
the
Matt DTS !
Coach101 II-GS. Two questions... 1) Is Apple going to pursue the OOP
approach
Coach101 on the II-GS (like provide tools) and 2) has Apple seen any signs
of
Coach101 commercial CD-Rom offerings for the II line yet... ga
AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
Matt DTS Apple is very interested in hearing from developers about what
kind of object-oriented tools they'd
Matt DTS like to see. We obviously believe OOP to be the wave of the
future for most programming, but how
Matt DTS that applies to the Apple II depends on the needs of our
developers and their capabilities to use
Matt DTS the OOP tools to produce creative and inventive products. Please
send your comments to Developer
Matt DTS Tools at the address listed in the back of the APW or MPW IIgs
manuals.
Matt DTS 2) I personally have not seen Apple II-specific CD-ROM products;
I imagine this is largely due to
Matt DTS the 8-bit limitation of four partitions of 32 MB each (ProDOS).
Using a different file system makes
Matt DTS it *IIgs* specific, which is a smaller market. However, Apple
does have information on a starter
Matt DTS kit for all developers (Apple II included) which can get your
product burned into 100 CD-ROMs
Matt DTS including mastering, for $1500. Contact AIIDTS through normal
channels for more information. GA.
AFL Dyfet Okay, thank you Matt..GA Coach...
Coach101 I sae that price Matt and was very IMPRESSED! One question
though, was
Coach101 how much of a deal it was. That is, not saying that Apple was not
giving
Coach101 the developer a good deal, but what kind of volume would one have
to
Coach101 have in order to get prices like that on their own... If you
know? ga
Matt DTS I really can't answer that; I have no idea. The evangelists for
multimedia also do a lot of Apple II
Matt DTS work and they put together the package for our developers; they
really need to answer that. I
Matt DTS think the prices for volumes of 1,000 are less are *fairly*
reasonable, but I can't quote numbers. GA
Coach101 Thanks...
AFL Dyfet Okay, are there any further comments on Coach's question?
DwightW1 (i'm not sure i understood it... can it be rephrased?
Coach101 The question or the answer :)
DwightW1 the question please :)...
Matt DTS (We only have a few minutes left - let someone else rephrase it!
:)
AFA Gary J heheh
Matt DTS <just kidding, coach...>
Coach101 Matt is always good at being terse and correct. GA Matt :)
AFL Dyfet :)
Coach101 I do it via FlashNote
Chaos 89 Can you give a short explanation of OOP?
Matt DTS I don't think there is a short explanation of OOP. :)
AFL Dyfet Okay, Chaos, I see you also have a question not very easy to
explain in a quick
AFL Dyfet summary :)...Well, OOP, or Object Oriented Programming, is more a
different way
AFL Dyfet of approaching programming problems than anything else. It
involves the idea
AFL Dyfet ...the idea that maybe I will be saved by another fine explanation
from Coach:)
AFA Gary J :)
Coach101 But we are out of time....
DwightW1 (thanks coach101)
AFA Gary J nah.. :)
AFL Dyfet Now, Coach, that would be the easy way out :)....Seriously,
perhaps someone
Coach101 Matt and Dave will probably have to correct me here since I am not
all
Coach101 that up on OOP, but....
AFL Dyfet knows of a good book to introduce one to OOP...
Coach101 Nope.... Thats a lot like trying to explain HyperCard in a
paragraph ...
Rowdy2 How about Borland's Turbo Pascal Object Oriented Programming
Guide? :)
AFA Gary J There's a book on OOP for the Macintosh.. (in APDA)
AFL Dyfet I would suggest, Chaos, that you try posting that question in of
the message
AFL Dyfet forums, and let people respond there, where they will have more
time and space
AFA Gary J APDA = APDAlog
AFL Dyfet for a helpful explanation.
Chaos 89 Thanks
Coach101 Maybe we should have an OOP night to gather opinions and
comments....
AFL Dyfet That is an interesting idea, also, Coach...
AFL Dyfet Okay, do we have any more questions or comments for tonight?
Coach101 Its kind of boring when you cant ask questions that will cause
Matt
Coach101 to answer "summer", or "winter", or :)
AFA Gary J ..to use his macro?
AFL Dyfet :)
Dave Lyons I can!
Dave Lyons Matt...what season comes after spring but before fall?
AFA Gary J heheh
Matt DTS Baseball season.
AFL Dyfet :)
AFA Gary J :)