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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
October 3, 1989 10:00 pm eastern time
Topic: Resource Forks and What to do With Them
Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
AFL Scott Have to find more err.... resources..:)
AFL Dyfet Speaking of resources; Good evening and welcome to the Apple II
Development
AFL Dyfet Forum chat. Tonight's topic will be 'resources'; What are they;
what you can
AFL Dyfet do with them; etc. I was hoping that, by this time, several new
products
AFL Dyfet intended to make life easier with resources on the GS would
already be out on
AFL Dyfet the market, but it appears this has yet to happen. In any case,
we will be
AFL Dyfet obverving PROTOCOL tonight, which means that if you wish to ask a
question, you
AFL Dyfet must enter a '?' on a line by itself, and if you wish to respond
or comment on
AFL Dyfet the question currently being asked, you must enter a '!' on a line
by itself.
AFL Dyfet I will then call you each in turn to speak. Feel free to get your
questions
AFL Dyfet in the queue now, before I fill the rest of the screen :).
AFL Dyfet Go ahead, Coach, you have the floor now.
Coach101 With a code resource,
Coach101 I presume that I write the code, use LinkIIGS to make an
executable
Coach101 entity, and then *somehow* get the entire output from LinkIIGS
into
Coach101 the resource fork. Is there a utility to do that last step for
me?
Coach101 ga
Coach101 Come on, is that tough a question?
AFL Dyfet I would suspect you can bind it using the resource compiler.
AFL Dyfet GA Dave...
Dave Lyons Sorry, I was away from my kbd for a sec--if you're using the Rez
compiler (or
Dave Lyons on the Mac, the RezIIgs tool), you can use a simple directive like
"load" (I
Dave Lyons may have the wrong name there) to include any sort of file (OMF is
fine, but
Dave Lyons it works for anything) as a particular resource type/id. For
example,
Dave Lyons resource rCDevCode(1) load "myfilename"; or something (CDev code
resource
Dave Lyons with ID 1). ga
Coach101 Thanks Dave, I knew it had to be simple I just kept missing it in
the
Coach101 manual.... done...
Dave Lyons (Oops--it's "read", not "load".)
AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe the next question was from WindRider. GA
Wind...
Windrider5 some basic question What types of resources are there? And what
advantages are
Windrider5 there for using resources
AFL Dyfet One advantage of resources is that you can store configuration
information,
Dave Lyons !
AFL Dyfet device drivers, etc. in the same file as your application, and not
need to
Coach101 !
AFL Dyfet use subdirectories. You can copy everything you need for your
application to
AFL Dyfet run in a single operation. I see a lot of people wish to comment;
Dave, GA.
Dave Lyons Okay...there are as many *types* of
Dave Lyons resources as you care to invent: the Resource Manager is
completely general
A GibberFC (hi all)
Dave Lyons in that sense. There are a couple dozen "system resource types"
(they have
Dave Lyons a standard format, and their types are in the range $8000+).
Types below
Dave Lyons $8000 can be used for whatever anybody wants. The currently
defined system
Dave Lyons resource types include stuff like strings, control templates,
control lists,
Dave Lyons window templates, control defprocs (code), & lots more (they're
defined in
Dave Lyons the APDA draft of Toolbox Reference, Volume 3).
Dave Lyons Advantages:
Dave Lyons Users (and developers) can potentially use resource editors to
cusotmize
Dave Lyons applications (wanna do a French version of your app? Resources
can make your
Dave Lyons life easier).
Dave Lyons The Resource Manager works very closely with the Memory Manager to
give you
Dave Lyons stuff like resources that are purgable--if your user has lots of
RAM, they
Dave Lyons won't need to do as much disk switching as a user in a low-memory
environment.
Dave Lyons I'll stop here & give Coach a chance. ga
AFL Dyfet Ga Coach...
Coach101 I was going to comment on the advisability of storing information
in
Coach101 a the load units resource fork that is *user* dependent (e.g.,
configuration
Coach101 information). In a multi-launch (file server) environment the
user may
Coach101 not have write access to the program itself and different users
may
Coach101 want different configurations.... ga
Dave Lyons (Very good point.)
AFL Dyfet That is a very good point, Coach...
Dave Lyons :)
Coach101 No credit here.... Apple specifically mentions it in their
publications.
AFL Dyfet Do we have any more comments on this?
AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next question is from Nuzz. You have the
floor, Nuzz.
Nuzz What would be the procedure for an app that wanted to replace a
res. without
Nuzz having to first load it in and delete it?
AFL Dyfet Do you mean applications that would modify their own resource
forks?
Nuzz Right
AFL Dyfet GA Dave...
Dave Lyons Isn't there a RemoveResource call that takes a type and id &
removes it from
Dave Lyons the most-recently-opened resource file? (Looking it up....)
AFL Dyfet I wish I could find and get all my manuals unpacked...
Dave Lyons Yes, it looks like there is--call
Nuzz Doesn't RemoveResource require that it be loaded?
Dave Lyons number $0F1E. Sine the
Dave Lyons er...SINCE the parameters are a resource type and a resource ID
(and not a
Dave Lyons handle), no--I don't believe it requires you to load the resource
first.
Nuzz Can you REPLACE a resource without loading it?
Dave Lyons (The docs say it releases "any memory the resource occupied"; so
it does
Nuzz and keep the same Id
Dave Lyons release the resource if you loaded it without detaching it.)
Dave Lyons Checking AddResource....
Dave Lyons Since you get to specify the ID when you add a resource, you can
just
Dave Lyons RemoveResource on the existing one and then AddResource with the
same type
Dave Lyons and id as the resource you just removed. If this isn't
"replacing" it, I'm
Dave Lyons missing the distinction.
Dave Lyons An alternative
Dave Lyons approach, if it's easier, would be to SetResourceLoad to false, so
that
Dave Lyons the resource is not actually loaded into memory, SetResourceLoad
back to true,
Dave Lyons (after LoadResource-ing the one you want, of course), then
SetHandleSize the
Dave Lyons handle you got from LoadResource, put whatever data you want in
that handle,
Dave Lyons and WriteResource the thing (or MarkResourceChange so that it gets
written
Dave Lyons later).
Nuzz Any chance of a one call thing like _ReplaceResource. Sounds
easier. GA
Dave Lyons I don't see
Dave Lyons how it's much easier than RemoveResource followed by
AddResource--the only
Dave Lyons thing it saves you is doing a GetResourceAttr if you don't already
know the
Dave Lyons attributes, right?
Nuzz Sounds good to me.. Done
Dave Lyons (done)
AFL Dyfet Okay, I see that our next question is from Parik. GA Parik, you
have the
AFL Dyfet floor.
AFL Dyfet Okay, then I guess Jim will be next :). GA Jim :)
JimNiemann What other products do people know about? Other than
JimNiemann TML Pascal II, REZ, and Genesys? ga
JimNiemann I meant resource supportive products, of course!
Dave Lyons (Besides the Monitor? :-)
AFL Dyfet A2GS, you seem to be first, GA :)
A2GS Never mind, was wondering what he was talking about :)
AFL Dyfet Okay, GA Doctor Why...
Doctor Why ByteWorks will have a product early next year. DesignMaster, I
think!
AFL Dyfet I believe the people that originally put out Dialog Layout Utility
will also
AFL Dyfet have a visual resource editor sometime in the future.
AFL Dyfet Parik, you wished to comment? GA.
Parik Dude right, DesignMaster by Chris Haun will be published by ByteWorks,
its supposed
Parik Dude to be good * and * cheap! :) Also APW had/has (?) a program
called Little
Parik Dude Res which is just a mini resource editor, works good. Dunno if
they'll put it
Parik Dude out with apw v2.0. ga
AFL Dyfet Okay, Dave, I believe your next...ga...
Dave Lyons Will any of these products be modular, so that people can write
their own
Dave Lyons editor modules for application-specific resource types (the way
you can for
Dave Lyons ResEdit on the Macintosh)? ga
AFL Dyfet Interesting point, Dave...Um, I believe Mike is next...GA
Mike...
AFL Mike F I believe another Resource Program is Toolbox or something like
that from Simple Software -- ...
AFL Mike F it has been announced and advertised but not out yet, from what I
can tell. GA
AFL Dyfet Unfortunately, many of the products mentioned are just not
available at this
AFL Dyfet time. When I scheduled this chat originally, I had hoped that at
least a few
AFL Dyfet of them would have been.
AFL Dyfet Do we have any more comments on res editors?
AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next question is from A2GS. GA A2...
A2GS Wasn't coach first?
AFL Dyfet Oops...Okay. We'll let Coach in, then :)
A2GS First come, first serve (that's life)
Coach101 What do "-flag SYSTEM" and "-flag ROM" accomplish for me, please
go
Coach101 beyond the verbiage in the APW manual :)
Coach101 Those are REZ options....
Dave Lyons (No idea so far.)
Coach101 Next Q
AFL Dyfet A very honest answer, if nothing else :)...
AFL Dyfet Okay, for the moment we will go to A2GS then...GA A2...
A2GS Are resources discussed thoroughly in TB Ref. III and is it
available yet in
A2GS it's finished form (TB III)? GA
AFL Dyfet GA Dave...
Dave Lyons A beta draft of TB Ref 3 is currently shipping from APDA. No,
it's not in its
Dave Lyons final form yet. Whether resources are discussed "thoroughly" is
somewhat
Dave Lyons subjective, I guess--I think it's thorough enough, and you can
certaily
Dave Lyons get any questions you have answered here (you may even cause the
answers to
Dave Lyons appear in a future version of the book, or in a Technical Note).
ga
AFL Dyfet GA Coach.
Coach101 I have both ToolBox III and the new APW tools documentation (both
from
Coach101 APDA and both are shipping), and I would say that between the two
you
Coach101 should find enough information to understand and use resources...
A2GS (Don't use APW, drives me up the wall :)
Coach101 Be forewarned, Resources are a *meaty* subject, if you really want
to
Coach101 get an understanding of them and make *maximum* use of them you
should
Coach101 be prepared to invest some time in reading (more than once) the
books...
Coach101 done
AFL Dyfet Well said, Coach! I believe our next question is from Michael.
GA.
AFL Mike F Slightly off the subject ... any word when System 5.0.2 will be
available? GA
Dave Lyons ! -> Nope.
AFL Dyfet I have a feeling that Dave cannot comment on that one, even if he
does know :)
Dave Lyons ("Soon" is the best I can do...out of my department. I actually
*don't* know.)
Coach101 Is it actually 5.0.2 or some other number?
Dave Lyons It's actually 5.0.2.
AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next question is from JD. GA JD.
JDavies1 This is way off the subject but... Does anyone know where I can
get
JDavies1 Prosel16 (?)?
JDavies1 I can't find it anywhere and I deal in software
AFL Dyfet GA Dave...
Dave Lyons Yes; lots and lots of people know. :-) $60 from Glen Bredon, 521
State Road,
Dave Lyons Princeton, NJ (but I can never remember the zip). ga
AFL Dyfet GA A2GS...
Coach101 Also carried by a number of advertisers in InCider....
A2GS Never mind, basically STOLE the words right out of my mouth :)
A2GS DAVE
A2GS that is
Dave Lyons :)
A2GS :)
AFA Gary J Stole? :)
JDavies1 thanks alot.
A2GS carefully eased the words right from between my teeth
Coach101 Actually an *off the subject* comment as opposed to a
question....
AFL Dyfet Okay, moving along, I believe Coach now has the floor. GA
Coach...
Coach101 The technotes and filenotes are now in our library....
AFA Gary J Yup.
Coach101 My thanks to those who worked hard to get them there!
AFL Dyfet Somebody noticed :)
Coach101 done
AFA Gary J :)
AFA Gary J (Took most of the weekend :)
AFL Dyfet Gary did a very fine job on that :)...Okay, I believe our next
question is from
Doctor Why Dave, is Apple working on SCSI backup & restore utilities that
will recognize
AFL Dyfet Doc Why. GA Doc.
Doctor Why the new file type.
Doctor Why file type = resource forks
Dave Lyons Sorry--can't comment on future plans or lack thereof. (It's a new
"storage
Dave Lyons type", not file type.) ga
AFL Dyfet Prosel16 has utilities to handle backup and restoration of
extended files.
AFL Dyfet Well, I believe it's time to get that question queue filled back
up :)
AFL Dyfet GA Gary :)
AFA Gary J Is there any other reference material avaialble on resource files
other than
Doctor Why Okay, I'll be ordering Prosel16. I just think that it's a mistake
for Apple to
AFA Gary J the two sources mentioned from APDA (TB III and APW), and the
Tech Notes?
Doctor Why supply an operating system that they don't supply the means to BU
and Restore.
AFL Dyfet Planning a book, Mike? :)...GA Mike...
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Mike F Nah Dave -- at least not yet. But there is an article in Call
-A.P.P.L.E. quarterly this fall on
AFL Mike F resources.
AFL Mike F Done
AFA Gary J Great. (I think I just got mine in the mail today...
AFA Gary J ..haven't looked at it yet..) Thanks.
AFL Mike F (Also has an article on TC by someone married to my wife.)
AFL Dyfet Okay, GA A2, you have the floor now (too bad, I was kinda hoping
for a new
AFL Dyfet book from you, Michael :)
AFA Gary J heheh
AFL Mike F Love to do one Dave. Just need a publisher.
A2GS This is Wayyyyyyy of the beaten path and what we've been talking
about tonight,
A2GS but...
JDavies1 Who's married to your wife? And your not upset?
AFL Mike F :)
A2GS anyone know what the story is with this new mag. II Technical,
missed them at
A2GS the Fest, Damn GA
AFL Dyfet GA Michael.
AFL Mike F II Technical is from Randy Hyde and the HAL Labs people -- they of
LISA Assembler fame. Just ...
AFL Mike F grabbed a look at it at the fest but subsribed right on the spot.
Haven't seen my copy yet but it
AFL Mike F was already in issue no. 2. I ordered the back ones too. GA
A2GS I got their first issue and a subscription...just waiting right
now.
AFL Dyfet I kinda miss "Assembly Lines" myself.
AFL Mike F Agree Dave.
A2GS We need more Mags!!!
AFA Gary J Yup.
A2GS Mike you want to start one instead of your book? :)
AFL Dyfet It sounds like II Technical is trying to go after the old Assembly
Lines nitche
AFL Dyfet . GA Mike.
A2GS More Technical!
AFL Mike F On the issue of magazines, I assume everyone knows of the
programming mags from Ariel Publishing --
A2GS Yup!
AFL Dyfet Yes, they put out an interesting zine, mostly dealing with
Merlin.
AFL Mike F one for Merlin people (Sourceror's Apprentice I believe) on on
Applesoft (Reboot), one of ZBasic
AFL Mike F for the II (can't remember the name) and one for ZBasic on some
other computer Apple makes.
AFL Mike F Done
AFL Dyfet You are correct on the titles of the first two, Michael.
AFA Gary J Anyone have an info/order address for II Technical?
AFL Dyfet GA A2.
A2GS Call...
A2GS (714) 359-8480 for more info, to advertise or to submit articles
A2GS It's a VERY technical magazine as far as topics go and also VERYYY
interesting!
A2GS Well not that Technical...
AFA Gary J Thanks.
AFL Dyfet Sounds like just the kind of magazine I want to read :)
AFL Dyfet GA A2...
A2GS interested in the highlights of the first issue...or am I getting
just a weee
A2GS to much carried away :)
AFA Gary J I'm interested.
AFL Dyfet Why don't you start a thread on the subject of good hard core
technical mags in
AFL Dyfet one of the forum areas? :)
AFA Gary J Good idea.
A2GS sounds good
AFL Dyfet Maybe 'Forum Business'.