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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
August 15, 1989 10:00 pm eastern time
Topic: The new IIGS, Pascal & C programming
Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
AFL Dyfet Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum. Tonight's topic is
Pascal and C
AFL Dyfet programming. We will be using *PROTOCOL* beginning now, so if
you wish to ask a question, type a '?' on
AFL Dyfet a line by itself, and if you wish to make a comment, like Coach
has indicated,
AFL Dyfet please enter a '!' on a line by itself. I will call each of you
in turn.
AFL Dyfet Coach, you seem to be first, so you have the floor now. Go ahead
:)
Coach101 I would like to commend Matt on getting some technical
information
Coach101 posted here on AppleLink on the same day that Apple made the
announcement...
Coach101 GREAT JOB!!!! ga
Matt DTS <blush>
AFL Dyfet Thank you Coach, and especially you, Matt, for your prompt and
informative
AFL Marty Yes indeed. It's much appreciated!
AFL Dyfet release of that information :)...I believe A2GS has the first
question, you
AFL Dyfet have the floor now...
A2GS Anybody here have an opportunity to use the (so-called) new GS?
AFA Parik !
Matt DTS !
Dave Lyons !
JimMensch !
JimMensch (he he he)
AFL Dyfet GA Parik, you seem to be first :)
A2GS I thought so! :) ....
AFA Parik yeah - from a users viewpoint, its nice! I'm not saying its my
dream machine,
AFA Parik but the mouse really seems smooth for me now.
AFA Parik I'll let the elitists who have used for it decades probably say
more :) ga
A2GS smooth as opposed to what?
AFA Parik er...rough? :)
Matt DTS I like mine tremendously. I lust for one at home. :)
AFL Dyfet Ha Matt, Dave, and Jim, I'm sure all three of you have something
you wish
AFL Dyfet to say :)
A2GS Say it!
Matt DTS My hard drives are in slots 7 and 4 with full AppleTalk and
desktop mouse abilities.
JimMensch Well,
JimMensch as far as the current installed base, I would say its nothing to
write home about.
A2GS Come on Jim, don't let a little company like Apple bother you.
:)
Coach101 ?
Dave Lyons I like mine a lot.
JimMensch However for new owners is gives them a little more for their money
(more memory, easier mem upgrade)
JimMensch a slot or two more and a little more flexability when setting the
control panel
A2GS Will there be possible compatibility problems?
JimMensch other than that its (at least software wise) about the same.
JimMensch Not that we know of, but I am sure some application somewhere will
not work with it...
A2GS Any vector locations changed, softswitches, etc...
AFL TimB Hi y'all
AFL TimB Mr Mensch!
JimMensch vector locations are the same for both machines
Matt DTS <GA>
JimMensch no new softswitches to note
A2GS Is it safe to assume that the 256k ROM now contains nearly all the
new tools?
JimMensch just a new memory configuration. (1.125 meg instead of 1.25
meg...)
A2GS and patches.
AFL Dyfet Okay, any further comments, Gentlemen? I see Matt has finished up
:)
JimMensch No, not all the tools, but it does contain 112K more tools
Matt DTS The discussion in Misc. Dev. Topics lists the tools now in ROM
that weren't before.
JimMensch ga
Matt DTS <GA> <again> :)
A2GS finished :)
Dave Lyons ga
AFL Dyfet You have the floor now, Coach, GA...
Coach101 Does the new machine's "increased slot capability" indicate a 14
(16) slot
JimMensch !
Matt DTS !
Coach101 model or just an ability to re-use some previously dedicated
ports? ga
AFL Dyfet GA Jim...or Matt :)
Matt DTS Coach, the message in Misc. talks about the exact slot changes,
mostly to 1,2,4 and 7, with some to 5.
JimMensch Well, first, you no longer need to have slot 4 set to mouse to use
the desktop
JimMensch ga matt... :)
Matt DTS GS/OS-style dynamic slot arbitration is *not* present in this ROM.
<GA>
Matt DTS (If I should be repeating this instead of referring to the forum,
someone please tell me. :)
Coach101 I will get the rest of the details from the Misc Dev Topic....
Thanks
Coach101 -Q
AFL Dyfet Okay, thank you again :)...I see that our Q stands next on JMCPHD
(I listed
JMCPHD I thought this was going to be about C and Pascal
AFL Dyfet from the start, Coach :)....GA, JMCPHD, you have the floor
now...
AFL Dyfet So did I originally, JMCPHD :)...I think we will be getting to
that topic
AFL Dyfet shortly :)...Okay, I believe AFA Parik has the floor next, GA
Parik.
AFA Parik couple of questions. whats the best way to learn about the
toolbox in pascal?
AFA Parik I just larned pascal, and sorta know the toolbox, but not pascal
interface.
AFA Parik ga
AFA Parik (do the compiler books have info?)
AFL Dyfet GA JMC...
JMCPHD both orca c and orca pascal mostly refer you to the tool box
reference books
AFL Dyfet GA A2GS...
A2GS Have you tried looking at the source which comes with Hodgepodge
when you
A2GS get the Programmers intro to the GS?
AFA Parik no
AFA Parik will try it.
AFA Parik second question - can TS2 be deleted if one uses the new GS?
AFL Dyfet GA Dave...
Dave Lyons On your first question--not sure what kind of stuff you're looking
for. Since you
Dave Lyons already know assembly, you've got a good grip on what goes on when
you call
Dave Lyons a toolbox routine from Pascal (because it's the same as when
Dave Lyons you call from assembly!). Are you asking about type casting or
something?
Dave Lyons On TS2--I haven't tried deleting it, and you should certainly keep
it there on any shipping disk. GA
AFL Dyfet Okay, GA Jim...
JimMensch Well, with a classic GS (or what we internally call a ROM 2
machine), the GS you all have right now, y
JimMensch you can delete TS3. On the new GS you can delete TS2 and some of
the tool files if you are really
JimMensch tight for space. (like you could delete the window/menu/control
tools...)
JimMensch But this should only be done by the users themselves... GA
AFL Dyfet GA Dave...
Dave Lyons (I believe the literature calls ROM 01 "ROM 2.0" and ROM 00 "ROM
1.0".) GA
AFL Dyfet Q=AFA Parik(Dave Lyons), AFL TimB, AFL Marty, JMCPHD, A2GS...Are
there any
AFL Dyfet further comments?'
AFA Parik lastly, is there any way to identity for a programmer which
machine you're
AFA Parik running on?
AFA Parik (as in new gs vs old
Matt DTS !
AFL Dyfet GA Matt....
Matt DTS The ROM version routine ($FE1F) still works. It returns $03 for
ROM 03 in the new GS (there is no
Matt DTS ROM 02, to avoid the same confusion we got giving a ROM version of
01 for ROM 2.0). GA
AFA Parik thanks - done
AFL Dyfet Thank you Matt...I believe Doctor Why had a comment to
add...GA...
Doctor Why I don't know which Pascal Parik has, but the source code for the
units are
Doctor Why available. Print them off...you will refer to them a lot! GA
AFL Dyfet Thanks for that suggestion. I believe our next question is from
AFL TimB,
AFL TimB I've heard that 5.0 has problems and that 5.0.1 is being released,
is this....
Matt DTS !
AFL TimB true, what are the problems and should we be concerned?
AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
Matt DTS We are aware of a few problems in 5.0. Most notable are problems
described in this forum..
Matt DTS ...concerning BASIC.System, and some new Standard File calls not
behaving as they should.
Matt DTS However, no new revision to the System Software has been announced
at this time.
AE PhilM !
Matt DTS (Should one come along, though, we'll be sure to let you know.)
GA
AFL Dyfet Perhaps a simple update with an installer script would be a good
way to
AFL Dyfet provide such an update? Well, I see Phil would like to add a
comment, GA
AFL Dyfet Phil.
AE PhilM I am using some of thoes new SF calls....can you be more specific
Matt?
Matt DTS We're aware that in the "SF...2" call, the auxiliary type is not
returned properly.
AE PhilM thoes = those
JimMensch Don't pop the disk out while you have the standard file window
open ;)
Matt DTS Specifically, not only does the new typelist function not match
auxtypes, filterprocs don't
AE PhilM Thanks!
Matt DTS get the right auxtype either. Old calls still work properly,
though.
Matt DTS (And what Jim said.) GA
AFL TimB And another question..
AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next question is from Marty, GA Marty...
AFL Marty Tim has another, GA Tim.
AFL TimB You say that not all tools are in ROM, which ones currently aren't
in ROM?
Matt DTS !
AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
Matt DTS (I get to repeat it anyway :)
AE PhilM ?
Matt DTS The tools that were in ROM 01 are present, as are the Window,
Control, Menu, Dialog, Scrap, Font...
Matt DTS ...and List managers, and Line Edit. All other tools are still
RAM based. GA>
AFL TimB (Done Dave)
AFL Scott ?
AFL Dyfet Okay, Tim....no problem :)...GA Marty...
AFL TimB Thanks
AFL Marty Would I be correct in saying that the new GS works only with...
AFL Marty system 5.0 or greater?
JimMensch yes
JimMensch too a point...
Matt DTS Sorta. :)
JimMensch old system disks will boot and run just fine
JimMensch but be aware that they do not have the new patch file, so some
bugs might crop up...
AFL Marty I see... you anticipated my next question then...
JimMensch and no, you can not just copy that patch file and expect it to
work...
AFL Marty I was wondering about programs like PWG which don't work with 5.0
now.
AFL Marty (please don't FN me when I'm asking a question)
JimMensch I use it on mine...
JimMensch ga
AFL Marty Thank you. Done.
AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next question is from JMCPHD. GA JMC...
JMCPHD I have both Orca c and Pascal I need to learn about the tool box,
suggestions?
JMCPHD ga
AFL Dyfet The official Addison-Wesley toolbox manuals are loaded with
information, though
AFL Dyfet not nessisarily in a manner easy to follow or to learn how to
use....I see
AFL Dyfet Matt wishes to comment, GA Matt...
Matt DTS Apple publishes a book called "Programmer's Introduction to the
Apple IIgs" which gives a pretty good
Matt DTS overview of the desktop programming concept. It comes with a
sample application in a few languages.
Matt DTS <GA>
Coach101 Matt took the words out of my mouth.. ga
AFL Dyfet I have never seen that publication myself, although I am vaguely
aware of it.
AFL Dyfet It sounds like something worth looking into :)...Does anyone else
have any
AFL Dyfet suggestions or recommendations?
AFL Vince Morgan Davis and Dan Gookin'sd books are worthwhile to look at.
AFL Dyfet GA Phil...and thank you Vince...
AE PhilM Never hurts to study the example code that Apple makes available
AE PhilM done
AFL Dyfet That is true, Phil...GA JMC...
JMCPHD were is the sample code Phil?
AE PhilM ? (incase you forgot :))
AE PhilM Its available thru APDA.
Coach101 !
Matt DTS It's also online in this forum.
Coach101 -!
AFL Dyfet GA Coach....and no, Phil, you haven't been forgotten...
Matt DTS <sorry Coach>
Coach101 Matt took the words from me again! :)
AFL Dyfet Okay, my node is a little slow :)...I believe our next question is
from A2GS,
AFL Dyfet GA.
A2GS How much of an improvement in GS/OS 5.0 boot time is there?
AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
Matt DTS It depends on how you look at things.
Matt DTS By the clock, not much. It actually takes a little longer.
A2GS why??
Matt DTS Just under the surface, quite a bit: 5.0 actually loads between
two to four times as much information
Matt DTS from the disk at boot time, but only takes a few more seconds to
do it. <ga>
A2GS huh?
AFL Dyfet This is very true, Matt, and impressive :)
AFL Dyfet Basically, A2GS, it loads 3 times as much from disk in about the
same ammount
AFL Dyfet of time as 4.0 took.
A2GS I don't quite follow, if a lot of the RAM tools are now in ROM it
should be
A2GS faster.
Matt DTS Oh, you didn't *say* you meant on the new machine.
A2GS sorry :)
Matt DTS Boot time (time to load the OS before the program is launched) is
about the same, but a little less
A2GS thought that's what we were mainly discussing.
Matt DTS since the patch file TS3 is smaller than TS2. However, when
programs are launched, there's a much
Matt DTS more noticeable difference, since most or all of the desktop tools
don't have to be loaded from disk.
Matt DTS I've not compared a new machine to a ROM 01 GS booting the same
disk, so I can't quote figures.
Matt DTS Sorry. GA>
AFL Dyfet Well, we started out scheduled for C and Pascal, A2GS, so :)...I
believe the
A2GS Does the outside of the machine look the same as our current
lovable gs?
A2GS sorry. :)
AFL Dyfet That's okay, A2GS...I'm curious too, now :)
Dave Lyons !
AFL Dyfet GA Dave...
Dave Lyons Yes, looks the same from the outside.
Dave Lyons (ga)
JimMensch !
AFL Dyfet GA Jim...
Coach101 Darn, I wanted one with Scullye's signature :)
JimMensch Well, I just did the definative boot test here at my desk...
AFL Marty (You can make an "X" yourself, Coach :)
A2GS hehe
JimMensch I started both machines into self test, then cold started them
both at the exact moment
A2GS and....
JimMensch and the *new* GS boots into the finder almost 1.5 seconds faster
(not even 10%...)... GA
AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next questionis from AFA Parik. GA Parik.
A2GS too bad,done,thanks. :( :) (mixed feelings)
AFA Parik In 5.0, are lower case files supposed to be at the end of a
alphabet list with
AFA Parik deluxepaint II, etc that use old SF tools? ga (done) afk :)
JimMensch !
AFL Dyfet GA Jim...
A2GS !
JimMensch Parik, thats an..... well... an oversight.... (as matt loves to
point out...
JimMensch we know about that problem also. sorry. GA
AFL Dyfet A2GS, Ga...
A2GS never mind Jim just mentioned it :)
AFL Dyfet Okay....I believe our next question is from Phil, GA Phil...
AE PhilM Whenever I issue a MIDI control call to play or record I have to
reset my Casio
JimMensch !
AE PhilM HT 700 by turning it off and on again, this happens in Audio
Animator and MSJR
AE PhilM but the problem does not occur on the DX7.
AFL Dyfet GA Jim...
JimMensch You can try to alter your packet timming (delay between packets)
the casios can get confused if
JimMensch you send MIDI data at full speed.
AE PhilM !
AFL Dyfet GA Phil...
AE PhilM Jim this doesnt happen once I turn it off an on again...it will
accept whatever
JimMensch it will lose the very start of some packets (bit 7) and assume you
are using running satatus.. GA
AE PhilM I send it after that? Any suggestions ??
AE PhilM Oh OK...I'll try that. Thanks!
AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next question is from AFL Scott...GA
Scott...
AFL Scott If a classic GS bombs in about 5 months so, needing motherboard
replacement...
AFL Scott will dealers replace the old motherboard with the new one?
JimMensch !
AFL Scott should read, or so.... :)
AFL Dyfet This would seem logical in my mind, since I wouldn't expect them
to keep dual
AFL Dyfet inventories once production is in swing and the old one is phased
out...GA
AFL Dyfet Jim...
JimMensch no way to say for sure how long dealers will stock both mother
boards.. after all they didn't
Coach101 !
JimMensch automatically upgrade IIc's in service when the mem expansion came
out.
JimMensch ga
AFL Dyfet Okay, GA Coach...
Coach101 It would be a dangerous swap. A new motherboard would
invalidate
JimMensch !
Coach101 a number of existing memory expansion port cards.. i.e., fix
the
Coach101 motherboard and wait for a new memory card/PAL from a third
party
Coach101 supplier.
Coach101 ga
AFL Dyfet GA Jim...
JimMensch What coach says is probably true, since mem boards may not be
compatible I think we will be forced to
JimMensch supply both boards for quite some time.
JimMensch ga
AFL Scott (Followup)
AFL Dyfet GA Scott...
AFL Marty (-?)
AFL Scott Does Apple's GS Memory expansion card work with the new
motherboard? Is ther
AFL Scott e an anticipated upgrade?
JimMensch !
Matt DTS !
AFL Dyfet Jim seems to have it first :)...GA Jim...
AFL Scott Upgrade memory wise... I know about the no upgrade policy for the
mommy board.
JimMensch Apples memory expansion works just fine with the new motherboard,
and so do some third party boards
JimMensch its just that some third party boards do not work... as if they
pgrade. Ask them. GA
AFL Scott I was only referring to the Apple Board. Thanks!
AFL Dyfet Okay, see that A2GS has the floor again..GA A2gs...
A2GS How can we tell when we're using a "new" GS does the bootup screen
say REV.ROM3
Matt DTS !
AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
Matt DTS Actually, yes. Where the current GS says "ROM Version 01", the
new one says "ROM Version 3". GA.
A2GS Done, (for the moment) :)
AFL Dyfet Did we miss 02 in there somewhere? :)...Okay, I believe the next
question is
AFL Dyfet from Phil...GA Phil...
AE PhilM Just curious...I assume that Discovery is no longer
appropriate...so how DO we
AE PhilM refer to the *new* GS (identity crisis)
A2GS !
AE PhilM done
AFL Dyfet GA A2gs...
Coach101 That is a "Matt approved" WYRM :)
A2GS Should work like what COKE did...there's the "classic GS" and the
"New GS" :)
AFL Dyfet :)
AFA Parik so will people prefer the classic? :)
John moyln (I doubt it...)
AFL Dyfet Okay, I see we have reached the end of the que, so I will throw
the floor
AFL Dyfet open to all! :)
Doctor Why can we expect a diet version? :)
A2GS :)
AFL Dyfet (Don't all speak up at once :)
John moyln well, I for one will "accidentally" short my gs if I have to get
the new mother
John moyln board,t he switchable slots, and larger ROM are well worth it...
JimMensch I think since the old GS only had 256K of mb RAM it should be
called the "Diet GS"
A2GS Sounds good to me!
AFL Dyfet GS lite, Jim? :)
JimMensch John, you will get the same motherboard you currently have...
AFA Parik yup, the wonders of Applecare! heheh
Doctor Why Less filling!
Coach101 Why does 5.0 RPM seem to forget how to talk to an AppleTalk
printer?
AFA Parik tastes bodacious!
John moyln (willt ake it to a dealer that I know, Jim...)
AE PhilM BTW - TWGS and Vulcan work just fine in the *new* GS....the GS
Ram, GS Ram+,
Matt DTS Be more specific, Coach.
AE PhilM and Ramkeeper will require PAL upgrades.
JimMensch John, he will get the same board from Apple that he sends in...
John moyln (ie. is willing to do that kind of swap...)
AFA Parik really Jim? bummer.
Coach101 Unless I visit the control panel AppleTalk/ImageWriter Cdev
before
AE PhilM Ramkeeper will also require a new EPROM.
A2GS Would anyone say that for a developer, having a new GS is
necessary?
Coach101 going into APW, APW cannot seem to find the printer in slot-7.
John moyln well if thats the case, just order a motherboard from CDA, they'll
get some
John moyln sooner or later...
JimMensch Coach, install Appleshare on the boot disk and that will go
away...
Coach101 No complaint, it just takes a long time to flush everything into
the
AE PhilM A2GS - if anything just to make sure you are compatible with it
Coach101 bit bucket.....
JimMensch he he he...