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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
July 18, 1989 10:00 p.m. eastern time
Topic: Getting Started for Novice Progammers
and Announcment of Release of System
Software 5.0 for the Apple IIGS
Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
AFL Dyfet We will be getting started here momentarilily, but we should give
a chance for
AFL Dyfet others to arrive first...
AFL Dyfet I see we have incomming people still, so we will give this 1 more
minute for
AFL Dyfet late arrivals...
AFL Dyfet Okay, I think we should be getting started...Good evening and
welcome to the
AFL Dyfet Apple II Development forum's tuesday night chat. Tonight's topic
is 'getting
AFL Dyfet started', a special conf. for novice programmers. We will be
using PROTOCOL
AFL Dyfet tonight starting now. This means if you have a question to ask,
you must enter
AFL Dyfet a '?' on a blank line, and if you wish to comment on the current
question at
AFL Dyfet hand, you must enter a '!' on a line by itself. I will call each
of you in
AFL Dyfet turn. But, before we get started tonight (so hold off on those
'?' keys :), we
AFL Dyfet have several special annoucements to make. For the first of
these, I will be
AFL Dyfet turning over the floor to Dave Lyons, who has some news many of
you have been
AFL Dyfet waiting to hear. GA Dave :)
Dave Lyons "Summer" is here! System Software 5.0 is *shipping* now, so your
dealers may
Dave Lyons already have it. If they don't they should soon. Retail price is
$49.
Dave Lyons (Dealers are *allowed* but not required to give you free updates,
without
Dave Lyons the manual.)
AFA Gary J (Yeah!)
Coach101 Applause Applause Applause
Furkle ?
AFL Dyfet I know all of you are happy to hear this. In addition, we will be
providing
AFL Dyfet this update online as soon as it arrives. Also, we will have a
new batch of
AFL Dyfet technotes available in the near future...
AFL Dyfet I think the GS/OS team deserves a lot of credit for what they have
done in
AFL Dyfet this short of time, but I do not see any members here offhand, so
I guess Dave
AFL Dyfet Lyons will have to convey our appreciation :)
Dave Lyons (Post it! They read Let's Discuss.)
AFL Dyfet Yes they do, and I'm sure they would appreciate the thanks...:)
Dave Lyons Not just the GS/OS team, but the Finder/utilities team, the
toolbox team, and
Dave Lyons the printing team, too!
AFL Dyfet Very true!
AFL Marty (Is there an uploading team? :)
AFL Dyfet :)
AFL Dyfet Okay, is there anyone here who would like to add any comments on
GS/OS's
Windrider5 ?
AFL Dyfet release at this point?
AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our first question is from Furkle, please go ahead
with your
AFL Dyfet question now...
Furkle question has been answered, thanks
AFL Dyfet Well, we aim to please :). I believe our next question is from
Windrider. GA.
Windrider5 Is it true that we will need more than technotes to understand all
the changes
Windrider5 in 5.0
Dave Lyons !
AFL Dyfet GA Dave!
Dave Lyons Yes.
Coach101 ?
Dave Lyons The documentation you need will be available later this year from
APDA;
Dave Lyons hopefully this summer.
AE PhilM ?
Dave Lyons You can still use the old features without new documentation, of
cours.e
Coach101 -?
Dave Lyons Some documentation will be sent to Apple Partners earlier than
that, too.
Dave Lyons (ga)
AFL Dyfet Thank you Dave. Okay, I see Gary has a question to sneak in
:)..GA Gary...
AFA Gary J Will this be in the form of a toolbox reference update, or is
there more?
Dave Lyons !
AFL Dyfet GA Dave...
Dave Lyons There will be more than one documentation product from APDA for
5.0; no
Dave Lyons specific details are available now. ga
AFA Gary J Thanks (and keep up the good work!)
AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next question is from AE Phil. You may have
the floor now.
AE PhilM In 5.0 the docs say that the SF Manager now need 4 pages of ZP.
One for itself
Dave Lyons !
AE PhilM and three for the list manager. I never initialize the list
manager in the
AE PhilM eariler stuff I did...but it is working. How is that??
AFL Dyfet GA Dave...
Dave Lyons Nope--some of the documentation was misleading; it is actually
supposed to say
Dave Lyons (and does, in some of the documentation) that SF needs 4 pages of
*stack
Dave Lyons space*, not direct page. You just have to make sure you have a
lot of stack
Dave Lyons space available when you make an SF call. SF takes care of
starting up the
AE PhilM OK...thanks Dave! It does use the list manager tho...right??
Dave Lyons List Manager for its own use. If you aren't using it directly,
you don't need
Dave Lyons to worry about starting it up; if you *are* using the List Manager
yourself,
AE PhilM Ok..thanks.
AE PhilM done
Dave Lyons you shoul still load and start it. (SF might not *always* start
the list
Dave Lyons manager up automatically!) ga
AE PhilM I will then. done
AFL Dyfet Okay, thanks Dave. For our late arrivals who missed the
announcement, System
AFL Dyfet Disk 5.0 is NOW SHIPPING :)
HyperRam ?
AFL Dyfet GA HyperRam...
HyperRam How long do you expect it will take before we have it for
download? :)
AFA Gary J Sometime this Summer :)
HyperRam Sometime. :)
HyperRam GA
Phoenix36 ?
AFL Dyfet :)...basically as soon as we get our hot little hands on it over
here :)
AFL Dyfet I believe our next question is from Phoenix, GA Phoenix...
Phoenix36 What makes 5.0 so much better than 4.0?
AE PhilM !
AFL Dyfet Phil, was that a comment for Pheonix? GA Phil...
Coach101 ?
AE PhilM No..just wanted to say that AE will start shipping 5.0 on Vulcan
and Sonic
AE PhilM Blaster before the end of the week. That's all!
Coach101 !
AFL Dyfet Thank you, Phil...As to Phoenix's question, that can take a long
explanation...
AFL Dyfet to put it simply, SPEED!!! Faster desktop with new improved and
very optimized
AFL Dyfet tools, faster disk I/O, etc etc :)...GA Coach...
HyperRam ?
Phoenix36 !
Coach101 Pick almost anything under 4.0 and it is faster under 5.0....
MUCH FASTER
Coach101 GA
AFL Dyfet GA Phoenix...you have the floor, after all :)
Phoenix36 Speed is really worth the $49, because AWGS needs faster window
management.
Coach101 !
AFL Dyfet There is also a new and improved Finder to look forward to, which
benifits well
AFL Dyfet from the improved speed of the tools :). GA Coach...
Coach101 One word of caution for Phoenix,
Coach101 Do not go out to buy coffee and donuts when starting Appleworks-GS
under 5.0!
HyperRam LOL!
Coach101 :)
AFL Dyfet :)...Anyone else wish to add any further comments on System
Software 5.0 at
AFL Dyfet this time?
JSchober "Wowwwwww..."
HyperRam ?
Phoenix36 !
AFL Dyfet Go Ahead Phoenix...
AFL Vince just that it will be at your dealers by week's end.
Phoenix36 With 5.0 on a hard disk all those 1 meg applications, should load
like the Mac
HyperRam ???
Phoenix36 i mean fast with TranswarpGS
AFL Dyfet Your question is on record, HyperRam :)...And yes, the benifit in
some
AFL Dyfet situations is very much like or even faster than that found under
4.0 with a
AFL Dyfet Transwarp GS, although there is nothing stopping you from gaining
even more
AFL Dyfet by having one with 5.0 :)
AE PhilM ditto :)
AFL Dyfet Well, I believe our next question is from Coach. You now have the
floor...
Coach101 Under 5.0, some applications (for example FINDER) remember the
lower
Coach101 case letters in my file names. How is this handled from a
compatibility
Coach101 issue with programs that may convert all lowercase letters to
uppercase
Coach101 letters before passing them on to GS/OS? GA
Dave Lyons !
AFL Dyfet The case is not stored in the ProDOS filename itself, but in the
old ProDOS
AFL Dyfet version ID bytes found in each directory entry. ProDOS 8, for
example, will
AFL Dyfet still see filenames the way it always had, irregardless of how the
case was set
AFL Dyfet from GS/OS. GA Dave.
Dave Lyons No handling is necessary, possible, or present...apps that convert
pathnames to
AFL Vince sounds like an old Appleworks trick to me.. :)
Dave Lyons all uppercase before making GS/OS calls will always create
filenames that are
AFA Gary J Yep :)
Dave Lyons all uppercase. All current FSTs ignore case, so it isn't a
problem--it just
Dave Lyons may look ugly.
Dave Lyons (ga)
Coach101 So, AFILE and afile are the same file on disk?
AFL Dyfet I'm sure SOMEONE will come out with a utility to capitolize all
your filenames
AFL Dyfet properly :)
Dave Lyons Yes, AFILE and afile are the same file on disk. I should have
said
AFA Parik ?
AFA Gary J ugh :) (Verry punny :)
AFA Gary J err...very
Dave Lyons above that all current FSTs ignore case when matching filenames;
Dave Lyons they *record* the case so that it comes back right later when you
read the
Dave Lyons directory. ga
Coach101 Tanks... Im done...
AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next question is from HyperRam. GA Hyper, you
have the
AFL Dyfet floor now...
HyperRam I know this is a dumb question but does 5.0 spped up the 'screen'
like in
HyperRam games?
HyperRam :)
AFL Dyfet That depends...if they use toolset calls, yes...
HyperRam BBL
AFL Vince Ok, let's cut the FNs.. :)
Dave Lyons !
AFL Dyfet GA Dave...
Dave Lyons Games that already go right to the screen to do their animation
will not be
Dave Lyons sped up by 5.0. ga
AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next question is from AFA Parik. You have the
floor now...
AFA Parik Does 5.0 splash the colors correctly on bootup? Is there any way
we can make
AFA Parik sure that apps don't stomp around $012000? Or does the loader
automatically
AFA Parik set nospecialmem when loading programs?
Dave Lyons !
AFL Dyfet You can set the appropriate bits in the load files
themselves....GA Dave, I'm
AFL Dyfet sure you will have more to add :)
Dave Lyons What's the "correct" way to splash colors correctly on bootup?
Under 5.0, apps
Dave Lyons are very unlikely to load in bank 1...if the system can avoid it,
it doesn't
Dave Lyons load them in special memory. Safest thing is to set the
no-special-memory
Dave Lyons attribute in your segment kinds.
AFA Parik the betas running around keep the background color blue.
Dave Lyons It's GQUIT that tries to avoid it, not the loader (there's a flag
you pass to
AFA Parik but what about programs we didn't write. I can't notice a speedup
in DPII
AFA Parik when booting from Orca/M. :(
Dave Lyons InitialLoad saying if it's okay to load into special memory or
not).
Dave Lyons The bootup screen is light blue, just like the default desktop
pattern is; it
Dave Lyons is no longer supposed to match the border color.
AFL Dyfet Okay, any further comments?
AFA Parik ga
AFL Dyfet Okay, the Q is empty, I see...I also see that we have drifted
quite far away
AFL Dyfet from what tonight's topic was originally scheduled :)...So I will
throw the
AFL Dyfet remaining time and questions open to any programming subject
people wish to
AFL Dyfet ask about...feel free to get your questions in the queue :)
AFA Parik Dave, do you know if the docs for 5.0 are shipping to developers,
or should we
AFA Parik buy it from APDA?
AE PhilM !
Dave Lyons !
AFL Dyfet GA Phil...
TomH47 ?
AFL Scott ?
AE PhilM Developers are expected to get a mailing later this week...that's
what I have
AE PhilM been told.
Dave Lyons You should definitely buy the APDA stuff when it becomes
available. Some
Dave Lyons preliminary stuff is being sent to all Partners soon.
AFA Parik ga
Coach101 !?
AFL Vince Do you know if APDA has the toolbox update reference, dave?
Dave Lyons I don't think they have any 5.0 documentation yet.
AFL Dyfet I don't believe they have it available yet...
AE PhilM !
AFL Dyfet GA Coach...
Coach101 Whats the difference between a Developor and a Partner (pay $600+
Coach101 and get a deferred mailing?)? GA
Dave Lyons ! (really Matt in disguise)
AFL Dyfet That was a sneaky question, Coach :)...GA Dave...
AFL Dyfet (or Matt :)
Dave Lyons He said "partners" (meaning people who currently receive Developer
Price Lists
Dave Lyons ) since we don't know if Associates will get it or not. Partners
will. GA.
AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe Phil had a comment...GA Phil...
AE PhilM APDA does NOT have any 5.0 stuff yet....I called today about just
that!
Coach101 Ok, I was thoroughly confused and making {poor} joke! Not a
complaint!
AE PhilM done
AFL Dyfet Okay...I believe our next question is from TomH. Go ahead,
Tom...
TomH47 I am currently teaching myself TML Pascal. Is it a good language?
If not
TomH47 could you recommend?
Dave Lyons !
AFL Vince Is TML good, or is Pascal good?
TomH47 What I should go to
TomH47 Ok, is it a useful language
AFL Dyfet First, Dave, GA...I know Vince will have something to add after
you :)
Dave Lyons I wrote DIcEd (a usable icon editor) completely in TML Pascal
standalone; so
Dave Lyons it is definitely "good." I can't really compare it with any other
Pascals,
Dave Lyons since I haven't done a nontrivial amount of work in any of them.
It does have
Dave Lyons some annoying aspects, but I expect they will be cleared up when
TML Pascal II
Dave Lyons ships. ga
TomH47 Thank you
AFL Vince We do have our share of bugs in Pascal I.
AFL Vince However, Pascal II has been setup for the novice/intermediate
level programer. All of the
AFL Vince resource construction for 5.0 is done with a graphic based point
and click style editor. After
AFL Vince you create those structures all you need do to get your programs
running is put in the "glue" routines
AFL Vince We're also running it on a Pascal testing suite of over 300
programs that test all aspects of a Pacal
AFL Vince compiler before we release it, so I dont think you'll find too
many of the annoying things Dave
TomH47 Then it is a good time to be learning, right. Note: Ordered TML
II recently
AFL Vince was refering to in this particular version.
AFL Vince Also, we're not planning an APW compatible product to go along
with Pascal II for those that are
AFL Vince interested. GA
AFL Vince Anytime is a good time to be learning... :)
TomH47 ;)
AFL Vince I learn every day, ask Dave, he's been giving me some lessons
recently.. :)
AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next, and possibly last, question for this
evening is from
AFL Dyfet AFL Scott. GA Scott...
AFL Scott APW version 2.... When is it due? Or is it even due, yet?
Coach101 Fall :)
AFL Dyfet Well, unfortunately, Tim is not here to defend the honour of the
APW team, but
AFL Scott and...
AFL Dyfet fall is what I have heard also...
AFL Scott Does MPWGS do linking, too?
AFL Scott Done.
AFL Vince MPW GS works well, and yes, it links and compiles resources.
AFA Parik so we can't express programs until fall? ack.
AFL Scott Worried more about linking large programs not resources at this
time. Thanks!
AFL Dyfet Okay, do we have any more questions or comments for this
evening?
AE PhilM OA-F and OA-G are too close together...need to learn Davorak.
Coach101 Congratulations to the 5.0 team on a job WELL DONE!!!!
AFA Gary J Amen!
AFL Dyfet Apple's excellant operating system :)
TomH47 Congrats Team
AFL Dyfet (or should that be excellant system software :)
AE PhilM ?
AFL Dyfet GA Phil...
AE PhilM The MIDI stuff in 5.0 is still not 100% with the 6850 driver are
there any
AE PhilM plans to correct the problems??
AE PhilM It's MUCH better tho...
AE PhilM done
AFA Parik (btw Phil - is AA now shipping? puhleeze say yes! :)
AE PhilM No Parik....still battaling with 5.0 MIDI tools....it's working
about 99%
AE PhilM But once in a while it looses a byte and gets totally messed up.
AE PhilM I'm not sure what more I can do....????
AFA Parik i'll beta test it for you. :)
AE PhilM Same problem with MS JR.
AE PhilM So I'm pretty sure it's not my code.
AFL Dyfet Well, I guess we will have to wait and see what happens there,
Phil...
AFA Parik well - have fun figuring it out Phil. We're counting on you. go
go go and all
AFA Parik that stuff.
Coach101 See you all next week.....