💾 Archived View for spam.works › mirrors › textfiles › apple › ADC › adv.890404 captured on 2023-06-16 at 21:09:10.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
AppleLink APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG April 4, 1989 10:00 p.m. Eastern daylight time Topic: Pascal and C Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet) AFL Dyfet Ah. We have a worm, I see... Coach101 Now I know the difference between a virus and a worm! AFA Gary J Go ahead, make my day... :) AFL TimB What we need are compilers with whips and chains! DaviesDoug hi scott AFL TimB That ensure tight code! AFL Scott Howdy,Doug! AFL Scott Howdy, Tim! AFL TimB Hi Scott! Coach101 Now, now, machines are supposed to be fast enough to compensate for AFA Gary J Chains: That's only for old Applesoft programs. AFL Dyfet Welcome aboard one and all...we will give another minute for any late arrivals Coach101 sloppy quality code! So says a recent posting... AFL Dyfet and then get things started tonight... AFL TracyP How much do I have to know to keep up tonight, Dave? ProDude Hiya Scott! AFL TimB You'll know more than I do Tracy!!!! ProDude Tim! AFL TracyP <-- doubt it...:) AFA Gary J Hi Pro! ProDude Gary!! Brett18 Hello All... AFL Dyfet Okay, I see there are still a few in commings, so we will give another minute AFL TimB Pro! AFL Dyfet before formally starting... AFL Scott Howdy, Pro! AFL TimB White tie and tails? AFL Dyfet I don't recall seeing Matt out there, so perhaps this will be easier :) AFA Gary J Hi Dave L DaviesDoug Hi Dave Dave Lyons Howdy. What's da topic? (2 lazy to look) Coach101 Good evening Dave DaviesDoug pascal and c AFL Dyfet Tonight it's Pascal and C, Dave... DaviesDoug <- not too lazy to look it up AFL Dyfet We're just waiting to see that nobody else is about to appear, okay... Energy Hello. I'm only 10 so watch your language Dave Lyons Gude EEevuning.... AFL Scott <---Reads Ftfl... ProDude <- knew it without looking it up AFL TimB <--- Doesn't read his own FTFL! AFL TimB <--- Hasn't received his online mag! AFL Dyfet Good evening and welcome to the Apple II development forum's weekly conference. AFL Dyfet The topic for tonight's event is 'Pascal and C'. We will be using protocol Energy What are you talking about? AFL Dyfet here starting NOW (THIS MEANS YOU, TIM :), which means if you wish to ask a AFL Dyfet question, please enter a '?' on a line by itself, and if you wish to make a AFL Dyfet comment about the last question asked, please enter a '!' on a line by itself. AFL Dyfet We will keep track of outstanding questions and call upon you to enter your AFL Dyfet comment in the order they were made. AFL Dyfet Now, are there any initial questions? DaviesDoug (what no Matt DTS tonight? :) ) BruceK14 ? AFA Gary J Q = Bruce AFL Dyfet Okay, GA BruceK14... BruceK14 Do more people here use/prefer Pascal or C for use? DaviesDoug ! Brett18 ! AFL Dyfet GA Davies AFA Gary J Q = Bruce (Doug, Brett) DaviesDoug Pascal, or prefferably assembly, if I have a choice DaviesDoug .done. Brett18 I prefer 'C' over Pascal... ProDude ! Dave Lyons ! Coach101 ! Larrycom ? AFA Gary J Q = Bruce (Brett, ProDude, Dave, Coach), Larry AFL Dyfet Okay, GA ProDude KEVIN95 what are the main applications of pascal and C ProDude I prefer Basic. ProDude GA Dave Lyons I'd prefer C if I had a nice fast compiler w/ type checking. AFL Dyfet Your next Dave KEVIN95 BASIC IS SLOW Dave Lyons For now I prefer Pascal for most projects; assembly for some. Dave Lyons ga AFA Gary J Q = Bruce (Dave, Coach), Larry, Kevin DaviesDoug (what, no parik here tonight?) AFL Dyfet Okay, Coach, your up... Coach101 My oreference is "C". I go to assembly where speed is paramount or Coach101 I need some special "calling/receiving" sequence for interface to Coach101 a toolbox or GS/OS purpose. GA AFL Dyfet I'll add that I prefer C myself as it is easier for porting code between AFL Dyfet different machines in C. There has been a lot less work in enforcing what AFL Dyfet a 'standard' Pascal should be, it seems...I believe Larrycom had the next BruceK14 ? Larrycom How does one get started on the apple in C? What software is needed? AFL Dyfet question. AFA Gary J Q = Larry, Kevin, Bruce Coach101 ! AFL Dyfet A good question there. GA coach. Coach101 If you have a II-GS, get a "shell". Either APW ($100) or ORCA (less Coach101 but I do not recall the price). Then get a "C" compiler and library. Coach101 Apple is the only "C" compiler that I know of at the present. ByteWorks Dave Lyons ! KEVIN95 ? Coach101 is about (I think) to release their "C" compiler. To get the Apple stuff Coach101 you need to join APDA (the application is here on AppleLink). If you AFA Gary J Q = Larry (Coach, Dave), Kevin, Bruce Coach101 are not using a II-GS, I do not know but perhaps Dave does. Dave will RussBlue ? Coach101 also correct any mistakes I made. GA AFL Dyfet Your question has been noted and will be next, Kevin. GA Dave. Dave Lyons The APDA phone number is 800-282-APDA. The info is AFA Gary J Q = Larry (Dave), Kevin, Bruce, RussBlue Dave Lyons also available in the Reference Library here on ALPE. I don't know of any Dave Lyons really decent C compilers for the pre-GS Apple IIs. ga DaviesDoug ! AFL Dyfet I do recall Aztec C myself, but it was heavy on overhead for a 48K AFL Dyfet environment. GA Davies. DaviesDoug Aztec C was too big for the IIe DaviesDoug not very usable DaviesDoug .done. AFL Dyfet Any more comments on this? AFL Dyfet Okay, Kevin, I guess we are up to your question. GA Kevin. KEVIN95 WHAT ARE THE MAIN APPLICATIONS FOR C AND PASCAL AND HOW MUCH MEMORY IS NEEDED KEVIN95 FOR C AFA Gary J Q = Kevin, Bruce, RussBlue Dave Lyons ! AFL Dyfet GA Dave (I knew it would be you :) Dave Lyons (Please type in mixed-case letters--it'll be easier to read.) To use APW C Dave Lyons you need 1.25 megs of RAM in your GS (1280K: a 1-meg memory card in addition Dave Lyons to the 256K already on the main board). Pascal and C are general programming Dave Lyons languages: you can write dang near anything you want in them. ga AFA Gary J Q = Kevin (Dave), Bruce, RussBlue RICH117 ? KEVIN95 is C slower or faster than BASIC Brett18 ! Doc RJA OA-H AFL Dyfet Fair question Kevin. I will give you the floor for it... AFA Gary J Q = Kevin (Brett), Bruce, RussBlue, Rich AFL Dyfet GA Brett Brett18 C is much faster then basic, for one considering it is a compiled language, ProDude ! Dave Lyons ! Brett18 and not a interpreted language, C is also more of a mid-level language, rather Brett18 then a high-level language, resulting in closer to Machine Language code, which AFA Gary J Q = Kevin (Brett, ProDude, Dave), Bruce, RussBlue, Rich Brett18 in turn, runs at a much faster rate... AFL Dyfet GA ProDude ProDude It seems to me that the answer to that question would depend somewhat... ProDude on whose Basic your using. There are several Basics that are compiled... ProDude two of them for the GS specifically. GA AFL Dyfet GA Dave.... Dave Lyons I was just going to point out that BASICs can be compiled, too. Speed Dave Lyons comparisons can probably be done only with respect to particular ProDude ! Dave Lyons implementations--you can't really compare the languages themselves. The big Dave Lyons er...ONE big advantage of C and Pascal over BASIC Dave Lyons is that you get decent data structures & can build them up to any complexity Dave Lyons needed. ga ProDude (-!) AFL Dyfet GA ProDude AFA Gary J Q = Kevin (ProDude), Bruce, RussBlue, Rich ProDude pass AFL Dyfet Oh, okay. I guess then we can move on to the next question from Bruce BruceK14 Can anyone give PRACITCAL feedback reguarding existing (or beta) C compilers/ BruceK14 environments as well as which ones should be avoidede? DaviesDoug ! Coach101 ! AFL Dyfet GO ahead Davies (I wish Mike Westerfield were here :) DaviesDoug I played with the one provided for APW once, seemed a lot of things weren't... DaviesDoug definde........and it's doug, DAVE DaviesDoug (It's Matt, yah) AFA Gary J Q = Bruce (Coach), RussBlue, Rich AFL Dyfet Okay. My appologies...Go ahead Coach... Coach101 I use the APW "C" system and would describe it as basically solid. Coach101 I have found a few strange anomalies but not many. Those that I Coach101 have encountered are written up in the "C" area of this (ADV) forum. NIGHT1 I want to hear what the experts have to say about Turbo Pascal. Coach101 Mike Westerfield, held a conference a few weeks ago about the Coach101 upcoming ByteWorks "C" compiler, and from what was being discussed Coach101 in that forum, it looks like it will also be a good system. GA AFL Dyfet Our next question will be from Russ. This is an AII board, Night1, no Turbo AFL Dyfet Pascal here :). RussBlue Hi! From a communication with Apple Developer personnel (and other developers) AFA Gary J Q = Russ, Rich RussBlue standpoint, is there an advantage to using APW/TML Pascal vs. TML Pascal RussBlue STandalone? Jump Long ! AFL Dyfet I recall this topic discussed on one of the message folders...anyone wish to AFL Dyfet comment. GA Jim! Jump Long I like the APW environment myself. You can link in assembly routines and data AFA Gary J Q = Russ (Jim), Rich AFL TimB ? relating to the current ? Jump Long structures using it. On the other hand, the standalone environment makes Jump Long it easy to test NDAs since you can test them without rebooting. Jump Long ga RussBlue Are Apple Personnel communicative in TML standalone? Jump Long Huh? ProDude (I think he means conversant) RussBlue If I wish to talk to Appler personnel about an application (sorry) developed RussBlue in Standalone, will we understand each other? Jump Long I guess so :) Two or three of us in DTS use TML Pascal at times. AFA Gary J Q = Russ (Jim, ?TimB), Rich Matt DTS Times of extreme distress. AFL Dyfet I guess we can let Tim speak now... BillP :) Matt DTS (No! I didn't say that. It's a bug in the AppleLink software.) Jump Long Now now, Matt ProDude he speaks! AFL TimB I've heard rumors of departure of TML from the GS market, any truth to this? AFL Dyfet GA Tim, we're all waiting :) AFL Dyfet I do not believe we have anyone here from TML at the moment who could answer AFL Dyfet that fairly. ProDude ! AFL Dyfet Go ahead ProDude. ProDude At their last conference here on AppleLink they said that they would continue AFA Gary J Q = Russ (ProDude), Rich ProDude to support the GS. To me that says they haven't left the GS market... AFL TimB Thanks Pro ProDude at least, not to the extent that Zedcor did. ProDude GA AFL Dyfet Okay, Thanks Pro. Your question now, Rich, GA. RussBlue Thanks for your help. I will check the message folder for more info! RICH117 After you develop an application, what else has to be delivered to the end user RICH117 are there any royalities involved?? ga BruceK14 ? AFL Dyfet Documentation would be nice :) Matt DTS ! (? type) ProDude (so would customer support) AFL Dyfet GO ahead Matt AFA Gary J Q = Rich (Matt), Bruce Matt DTS Is this "Do I owe the creator of my development system (like TML or Byte Works) Matt DTS any money?" or "How do I put GS/OS on the disk I ship?" Matt DTS (or neither?) RICH117 you guessed it sports fan! AFA Gary J Both? Matt DTS (He answered an either/or with "yes"! AARRGGHH!) Matt DTS :-) AFA Gary J :) DaviesDoug ? RICH117 sorry, I meant that I am concerned about the formare not the latter. ProDude (well done Rich :) WBBear ? Matt DTS Ah. I can only answer the latter. Next? (GA) AFL Dyfet In regards to GS/OS, that needs to be licensed from Apple Computer before AFL Dyfet you can distribute software with it on the disk. In regards to the latter, BillP ! AFA Gary J Q = Rich (Dyfet, Bill), Bruce, Doug, WBBear AFL Dyfet that may depend on the product. Anyone else wish to comment on this? AFL Dyfet GA BillP BillP Unless there is some REAL SMALL print on your liscense... DwightW1 what does apple charge for the license? Coach101 ? BillP you owe no royalities to the development system authors AFA Gary J Q = Rich (Bill), Bruce, Doug, WBBear, Coach AFL TimB ! RICH117 thanks that answered my question! AFL Dyfet That is normally true, Bill. Go ahead Tim. Coach101 ! BillP Some liscenses lately are a little bit of problem in that... AFL TimB With TML Speech tools I know that you cannot use them commercially without... BillP they require you to show the name of their product when your boots.... AFA Gary J Q = Rich (Tim, Coach), Bruce, Doug, WBBear, Coach AFL TimB paying license fees to First Byte. Also I think I recall... AFL TimB my TML package saying that you cannot create an application using more than... BillP Personally, I think this is a demonstration of a programmers ego DennisDoms ! BillP /done AFL TimB 50% of their source code. I'm not as sure on the last item as I am on the... AFL TimB first! AFA Gary J Q = Rich (Tim, Coach, Dennis), Bruce, Doug, WBBear, Coach AFL TimB License fees,,, Dave Lyons ! AFL TimB to First Byte are VERYYYYY expensive AFL TimB (done) AFL Dyfet Okay, GA coach BillP that's if you use their source... that is a little different Coach101 Now I am concerned. Matt DTS ducked the question as to whether AFL TimB Not on the former Bill. Coach101 I owed Apple anything if I distribute an S16 file that was linked Matt DTS (I did not. It wasn't my turn [using the rules when it's conveeenient]) Coach101 with APW "C" libraries. Did you really mean to duck that Matt? Coach101 ga AFL Dyfet I think we will let Matt comment now :) AFL TimB :) Matt DTS No licensing fee of which I'm aware, and I looked fairly recently. GA. AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe Dennis was next... AFA Gary J Q = Rich (Dennis), Bruce, Doug, WBBear, Coach DennisDoms I think Byte Works also requires a license for use of some of their... ProDude ? AFL Dyfet I believe Dave also had a comment to add, then we will move to next question. DennisDoms libraries. When in doubt, be sure and contact the compiler manufacturer... DennisDoms most policies I've seen are quite reasonable. DennisDoms GA AFL Dyfet GA Dave... AFA Gary J Q = Rich (Dave), Bruce, Doug, WBBear, Coach, ProDude Dave Lyons The ByteWorks license costs $0; they just require the paperwork. On the Dave Lyons TML Pascal stuff--they say your own code has to be a "significant" part of your Dave Lyons finished product, I think. This is okay, because an application consisting Dave Lyons almost entirely of TML Pascal sample source code would most likely have some Dave Lyons bugs anyway. <grin> I _like_ TML Pascal, AFA Gary J Q = Rich (Dave), Bruce, Doug, WBBear, Coach, ProDude Jump Long :) AFL TimB LOL!!! JSchober :) Dave Lyons but their sample programs do leave some "exercises in debugging" for the Dave Lyons programmer to solve. ga Matt DTS casual user? AFL Dyfet Our next question is from Bruce. BruceK14 Are there "glue" routines for C/Pascal for Toolbox and cross language access or BruceK14 must I write my own? Matt DTS (That's twice. This is funky.) Dave Lyons ! AFL Dyfet GA Dave Dave Lyons Gee, I thought Jim would jump at this one, but.... Calling the toolbox from AFA Gary J Q = Bruce (Dave), Doug, WBBear, Coach, ProDude Dave Lyons either C or Pascal is no problem (you can even declare the tools easily Dave Lyons yourself if the ones you want are too new to be in the provided interface Dave Lyons files). Calling Pascal routines from C is also no problem. Calling C routines Dave Lyons from Pascal would require some assembly language glue code. (Did I get all Dave Lyons of that right?) ga AFL Dyfet Okay, any more comments? Coach101 ! Dave Lyons (I should point out that you want the APW vers of TML to call from C, not the Dave Lyons standalone vers.) AFL Dyfet GA Coach. AFA Gary J Q = Bruce (Coach), Doug, WBBear, ProDude Coach101 If your "C" routine is called by the toolbox (scroll bar action, etc.) Coach101 then you will need a minor amount of either "glue" code or some assembly Coach101 language to get the data bank register set correctly... ga AFL Dyfet Okay. I think we will move to Doug's question now...GA Doug. DaviesDoug I am writing a program in PASCAL (:)) and was having trouble with smoothing.... DaviesDoug with printing to the laster writer...... DaviesDoug anyone have smoothing work...... DaviesDoug couldn't seem to get it to work with AWGS or paintworks either. DaviesDoug .done. AFL Dyfet I think that's more an issue for print drivers. Any other comments? AFA Gary J Q = Doug, WBBear, ProDude AFL Dyfet I guess not. I guess we had better get to Bear's question. GA Bear. WBBear What is the best way to get Apple 2 Pascal V 1.3? Thanks for any help. Matt DTS ! AFL Dyfet GA Matt. Matt DTS You call 1-800-282-APDA. Either that or don black clothing and pray... Matt DTS ...at the Altar of Forgotten Languages. GA. AFA Gary J Q = WBBear (Matt), ProDude AFL Dyfet True, Matt. Your question ProDude...GA. Matt DTS (The entire package costs about $75, vs. $250 when dealers sold it.) ProDude What is the fee to license GSOS for distribution? AFA Gary J Q = ProDude Matt DTS ! AFL Dyfet GA Matt, get 'em :) Matt DTS $75, isn't it? It may have gone up to $85 or $100 lately, but it's not... Matt DTS ...more than $100. For that, you get the right to include anything or... AFL TimB ! Matt DTS ...everything on SYSTEM.DISK and SYSTEM.TOOLS. (See GS/OS TN #1.) GA. AFL Dyfet That's unlimited copies per year per product. GA Tim. AFL TimB That's a flat fee, right? AFA Gary J Is that per year? ProDude part 2 AFL TimB GMTA Mark1000 ! Matt DTS Yes. Unlimited copies for one product for one year. GA. AFA Gary J Q = ProDude (Mark) ProDude (I like multi-part questions) AFL Dyfet Gary, yes, per year. I thought that clearification might be needed. GA Mark. Mark1000 It's a flat fee per year... (Matt said it first) :) ProDude How do I go about licensing GSOS? Mark1000 unlimited copies Mark1000 done Matt DTS ! ProDude Matt GA AFL Dyfet GA Matt ProDude :) Matt DTS You call Apple's Software Licensing department at (408) 974-4667. AFA Gary J Q = ProDude (Matt) ProDude done Matt DTS Or link them at AppleLink Apple Edition SW.LICENSE. Matt DTS GA. AFL Dyfet Do we have any more questions or comments in regards to tonight's topic at this AFL Dyfet point? ProDude thank you AFA Gary J Q = <Empty> AFL Dyfet Well, it seems we have made good time here. If there is nothing else, I will AFL TimB ? AFL Dyfet Ah, GA Tim... Coach101 ! AFL TimB Does Apple have the right to withhold license permission depending on the.... AFL TimB nature of the product. Benefits a competitor, in bad taste etc.? Coach101 Is licensing restricted to Coach101 Certified Developers and APple Partners or is it available in Coach101 the general case. ga AFL TimB Don't all answer at the same time! AFL Dyfet I don't believe licensing is restricted in any way to certified people. I AFL TimB :) AFL Dyfet have not heard of Apple refusing to license before, and have no idea as to when AFA Gary J Q = Tim & Coach Matt DTS ! AFL Dyfet they might, but they do have that right. Matt, I'm sure can clearify more :) Matt DTS The language is present to allow Apple to refuse or terminate the license... Coach101 60+ second delay (network?) Matt DTS ...but I don't know of any cases where this was done. GA. AFL TimB Thankx Dave Lyons Yup, anybody can license--all you need is the $$. AFL TimB Very interesting chat! AFL Dyfet I guess then if we have nothing else, I will move to end protocol... AFA Gary J Agree! Matt DTS Seconded. Dave Lyons How many Macintosh users does it take to change a lightbulb? JSchober hehehe ProDude Do we have thef food fight now? AFL Dyfet (Putting away protocol whips and chains), it is done then... ProDude only one Dave Matt DTS It depends on whether MultiBulb is installed or not. JSchober Welcome to ForumLeaderLand, Dave. :) Dave Lyons Just one: he holds up the bulb & the whole universe revolves around him. :) AFL TimB None. That's a system function? JSchober Grooooan... AFL Scott :) ProDude hahahahahahahahaha AFA Gary J ooohhh... AFL Dyfet MacPlaymate as system software? BillP heeheh Dave! I like it! Matt DTS I suggest an attitude change before 4/17/89, Mr. Lyons <stern look> JSchober :-) Matt DTS You're not being obnoxious enough. AFA Gary J :) AFL TimB Hey, Dave has his freedom for a few more days!!!! Jump Long Matt looking stern :--) Dave Lyons Hey, I'm just quoting Guy Kawasaki! :) DennisDoms Yeah, Matt! DennisDoms I can teach Dave how to be obnoxious. :) Coach101 Dyfet.... Get those chains away from Matt!!! BillP "What's the difference between the Boy Scouts and Apple..... Matt DTS You need to perfect phrases like "Piece of sh*t mail system crashes alla time." ProDude Dave just needs a good role model. AFL Dyfet Matt can do that for us on his own, Dennis... BillP the Boy Scouts have adult supervision Matt DTS ...and "6.0.WHAT???" JSchober LOL AFL TimB ROTFL!!! BILL!!!!!! ProDude ROTFL AFL TimB LOL Still!!!! BillP on that noe, I will say G'night BillP :) Dave Lyons Bill, were you at the NAUGC too? Matt DTS (That's a quote from "Odyssey", incidentally) AFL Scott ROTFL!! For both!! Coach101 NoNoNo.... Webster clearly definse Pice of as a synonym for I*M BillP note even BillP nope, actually read that one in PC World JSchober Figures. ;) DennisDoms "Does MultiFinder have memory management?" Matt DTS It's still a quote from Odyssey. BillP It was a quote from Gausee Dave Lyons Oh, okay. Either Guy or Tom Weishaar used it at the conference, too. Matt DTS Does it? Does Apple have a corporate strategy? Jump Long Goodnight... AFL Dyfet :) Matt DTS (well, maybe not such a good analogy) I think it does. JSchober Night, Jim! :) AFA Gary J Goodnight, Jim. AFL Dyfet Good Night Jim...! Jump Long ...poof... AFL Scott Matt, where is your .signature file? Disclaimer!!;) Matt DTS My hard drive isn't big enough. Dave Lyons Matt...you think MF has memory management, or you think Apple has a strategy? AFL Scott LOL! JSchober hehe Matt DTS Yes. DennisDoms The new video card was a good sign. Just when I get really angry at Apple... AFL Dyfet Hello Joe...awfully quiet tonight, I see... Dave Lyons So buy a Profile, Matt...they're bigger. Matt DTS (AARRGGHH!!) DennisDoms they do something sensible. Rats! JSchober Yeah, well, I got in late, then had to leave again. Sorry. How'd it go?? :) Matt DTS The video card is really nifty. JSchober LOL Dave... ;) ProDude Have you used the new card, Dennis? Matt DTS On a IIgs, you can pick an RGB value for the key color, and the video... AFA Gary J It sounds great. (The video card) JSchober Is it THAT GOOD, Matt?? It looks pretty boring to me, from the press releases. Matt DTS ...can be set to show through only for that color. DennisDoms (Profile?) No, but I Want One. ProDude ---===[}}} JSchober AFL Dyfet I just got a care package in regards to this card express air today :). Matt DTS That means you could have a regular desktop with one window of that color... ProDude No Dennis... the video card AFL Scott I have the developer notes.. it looks VERY interesting! BillP going to be brave and see if OA-Z still takes me to Apple Cafe See ya Matt DTS ...and thereby have a "live action" window with little or no work. DennisDoms Video card - haven't used, want one. Profile - don't have, don't want. AFL Scott <--needs the card, tho.. ProDude <-- needs the cash before he gets the card Matt DTS You can do the same in Double Hi-res as well. It comes with IIe and IIgs tools Matt DTS (TOOL033 for the IIgs), a P8 application to set colors and an NDA for the IIgs. ProDude It's a danged expensive card! AFL Dyfet I have two profilers as foot stands myself... Dave Lyons Gee, with the video overlay card you could hook a Y adapter to your computer's JSchober Yes, agreed, ProDude. $600?? ProDude $549 I think Matt DTS It's a heavy card. It's like the most densely populated card we've ever done. DennisDoms Nearest Apple II competitor is $1800, ProDude. Dave Lyons video out & overlay it with itself. That would be neat, eh? :) ProDude Is it priced by the pound? :) Matt DTS It's got more stuff in a smaller space than anything but the Mega II. ProDude ouch DennisDoms And that one doesn't handle the IIgs video modes. JSchober heh... the question is, why don't they make that technology standard in the GS, JSchober huh?? (sigh) AFL Scott But you do need to record the stuff.... if you come from VCR, you will need AFL Scott two VCRs for the card to be useful... ProDude It's still beyond my reach. AFL Scott no? Matt DTS And raise the base price of the system to $1800? Hmm... DennisDoms Does it indeed digitize? (Then I _really_ want one!) ProDude It might as well cost a million dollars right now. JSchober To $1800?? $999 <=old= base price> + $550 for the card = $1550. Weird math JSchober you have, Matt. Dave Lyons Sure, two VCRs, or a VCR and a camera, or whatever. Or a VCR and a tuner. Or AFL Scott Matt..The notes didn't say anything about digitizing... does it? ProDude It's new math, Joe. Dave Lyons you could just watch TV in a little window while you're using your computer AFL Scott <--doesn't think so. Matt DTS $1149 (=current= base price) + 550 = $1700 (off by $100) Dave Lyons for other stuff. I don't suppose it can shrink a picture tho, can it? AFA Gary J Good question, Scott. JSchober It's the service charge for installation. :-) Oh, ok, Matt... Matt DTS I dn't believe so, but I haven't used it *extensively*. JSchober That's Dave's dream... to watch "Moonlighting" while programming. :-) Dave Lyons As I understand it the card is _not_ a frame grabber/digitizer/whatever. Coach101 SANE math JSchober Don't you mean inSANE?? DennisDoms <-- new synth on hold (again). Matt DTS It can't digitize, I'm pretty sure. You could use your IIgs monitor as a TV, JSchober Anyway, folks, this talk of cards that are far too expensive for me is ProDude I just locate my desk so I can see my TV set while I'm working :) JSchober depressing. I'm gonna leave for the night. Y'all take care... Matt DTS though. It even puts the video source on the border (edge to edge of screen). Dave Lyons To watch "Moonlighting" while moonlighting? AFL Scott That's the way I understood, it too... The notes do mention interlacing, tho.. JSchober <something like that, Dave. ;) >